22 replies to this topic

[mitomutant]

After trying PQQ I am now starting with MB.

First thing that comes to my mind is the dosage. I guess you are all aware of the huge dosage differences (mcg to mg) between some members and the rember trial for Alzheimer. I am with Niner here, but I am also aware that too many members have experienced some effects with the mcg - even nanogram - dosages. Besides this, too much MB can be really bad for the ETC ("sucking" electrons out of the ETC), so at this point I prefer to start low and increase it gradually.

The second issue is the disolution preparation, but I think this will be easy in my case as I bought MB in powder form. My idea is just to mix it with water so that 5ml gives me 1mg of MB. This way I can easily scale up the dosage. I will prepare enough MB for 10 days, following this schedule:

Day 1: 1mg
Day 2: 1mg
Day 3: 2mg
Day 4: 2mg
Day 5: 5mg
Day 6: 10mg
Day 7: 15mg
Day 8: 20mg
Day 9: 25mg
Day 10: 25mg

So I will need 106 mg of MB.
- Is this as easy as mixing 106mg of MB with 530ml of water to get 1mg of MB per 5ml of liquid ?

- Is it ok to sip this during my workday or is it better to take a single/double/triple dose ?

Any comment here is more than welcome. I plan to start in 3-4 days.

Thanks

[Junk Master]

Should be interesting. I'm looking forward to your posts. I wouldn't worry about sipping during workouts, but I'd re-dose every 3-4 hours.

I didn't find much of an effect on my workouts, but did find it good for general anxiety, and enhanced mood; which manifested itself in the feeling of having more energy.

[niner]

- Is this as easy as mixing 106mg of MB with 530ml of water to get 1mg of MB per 5ml of liquid ?

- Is it ok to sip this during my workday or is it better to take a single/double/triple dose ?

Yes, to a good approximation, that's all you need to do. You could check the volume when you're done dissolving it, but unless you have a volumetric flask and good temperature control, you probably won't see much change in volume. Different substances can have different effects on the volume of water, either shrinking or expanding it. I don't know which MB would be, or to what degree, but the solution is dilute enough that I doubt you'd really see much.

I would take it all at once, at least at the low doses. If you start to feel something as you raise the dose, you could try splitting up the doses. If it helps, it would be really nice to get a dose response curve, and get some idea of how long it lasts at different doses.

[mitomutant]

- Is this as easy as mixing 106mg of MB with 530ml of water to get 1mg of MB per 5ml of liquid ?

- Is it ok to sip this during my workday or is it better to take a single/double/triple dose ?

Yes, to a good approximation, that's all you need to do. You could check the volume when you're done dissolving it, but unless you have a volumetric flask and good temperature control, you probably won't see much change in volume. Different substances can have different effects on the volume of water, either shrinking or expanding it. I don't know which MB would be, or to what degree, but the solution is dilute enough that I doubt you'd really see much.

I would take it all at once, at least at the low doses. If you start to feel something as you raise the dose, you could try splitting up the doses. If it helps, it would be really nice to get a dose response curve, and get some idea of how long it lasts at different doses.

I will keep it simple then (106mb MB/530ml water)
I will start with a single dose on an empty stomach.
Return to work is being hectic, but I will try to prepare the dissolution tomorrow and start on Thursday.

[niner]

After re-reading that Gonzales-Lima ppt that you posted in the PQQ thread (thanks for that, by the way- I'd seen it a while back but lost track of it), I think you will need higher doses to see the kind of effects you're looking for. Typically the optimal doses for the various endpoints they looked at were 2-9 mg/kg orally. The slide that showed cytochrome oxidase activity had a logarithmic scale, and the improved activity covered more than an order of magnitude in concentration, not falling below control until 5 uM was reached. Hitting that in vivo would take a huge dose. Looking at the level of whole cells, rather than isolated enzymes, Atamna found an optimum at 100 nM, IIRC. Again, in vivo, that will take a decent dose. I was particularly struck by the spontaneous locomotion slide, where the wheel rotations at 1mg/kg were significantly lower than control. Is that a calming effect, or is it a fall-off in energy? Locomotion was maximal at 4 mg/kg, and fell off at 10. This particular experiment raises the possibility that you could be misled by a dose that was too low. In all the cases, the optimum dose range is not supremely wide. If typical allometric scaling rules apply in this situation (sometimes they do, sometimes not), then you might be ok at the highest end of your range, but I think you should explore well beyond 25mg. MB has a long history of safe use; you could take hundreds of mg orally. Just be aware of the possibility for MAO inhibition if you're taking 100+ mg. (temporarily reduce the dose of meds that are an issue with MAO inhibitors, like SSRIs)

[mitomutant]

After re-reading that Gonzales-Lima ppt that you posted in the PQQ thread (thanks for that, by the way- I'd seen it a while back but lost track of it), I think you will need higher doses to see the kind of effects you're looking for. Typically the optimal doses for the various endpoints they looked at were 2-9 mg/kg orally. The slide that showed cytochrome oxidase activity had a logarithmic scale, and the improved activity covered more than an order of magnitude in concentration, not falling below control until 5 uM was reached. Hitting that in vivo would take a huge dose. Looking at the level of whole cells, rather than isolated enzymes, Atamna found an optimum at 100 nM, IIRC. Again, in vivo, that will take a decent dose. I was particularly struck by the spontaneous locomotion slide, where the wheel rotations at 1mg/kg were significantly lower than control. Is that a calming effect, or is it a fall-off in energy? Locomotion was maximal at 4 mg/kg, and fell off at 10. This particular experiment raises the possibility that you could be misled by a dose that was too low. In all the cases, the optimum dose range is not supremely wide. If typical allometric scaling rules apply in this situation (sometimes they do, sometimes not), then you might be ok at the highest end of your range, but I think you should explore well beyond 25mg. MB has a long history of safe use; you could take hundreds of mg orally. Just be aware of the possibility for MAO inhibition if you're taking 100+ mg. (temporarily reduce the dose of meds that are an issue with MAO inhibitors, like SSRIs)

Thanks Niner. Great insight and recommendation. I will start as described in the first post, but Iet´s consider it as phase I (safety, side effects). After this, I will keep increasing it until I see some significant change.

I believe you when you state that MB has a long history of safe use, but I need to be cautious here as, unfortunately, I am not a "normal" person. Fortunately LD50 seems very high (oral-rat 1180mg/kg), so I shouldn´t run into serious trouble here.

Not taking any MAO inhibitors.

[mitomutant]

Just took my first 1mg MB 20 minutes ago. No effects to report, but I made some photos to share with the forum.

110mgpowder: 110 mg of MB. My scale wouldn´t allow me to weight 106mb, so I opted for 110mg
startingdisolve : MB starting to dissolve in 530ml water.
solution: 110mb MG dissolved in 530ml of water. Color is very dark blue and putting a light behind it wouldn´t change much
5ml_in_150ml: This is what I actually took. 5ml dissolved in 150ml of clear water.
comparison: Full solution vs what I took.

Attached Files

•  110mgpowder.JPG   135.84KB   12 downloads
•  5ml_in_150ml.JPG   167.26KB   14 downloads
•  comparison.JPG   158.95KB   13 downloads
•  solution.JPG   69.92KB   17 downloads
•  solution_pipette.JPG   46.21KB   14 downloads
•  startingdisolve.JPG   148.31KB   9 downloads

Edited by mitomutant, 08 September 2012 - 04:15 PM.

[mitomutant]

4 hours after my first MB dose: Absolutely no effect. Tomorrow I will take another 1mg as per the schedule in the first post, although I do not expect any change either. In the anecdotal side, my pee is not green. I will make sure to report the dosage that turns my pee green.

[niner]

Not taking any MAO inhibitors.

MB is an MAO inhibitor itself, so the problem isn't so much with other MAOIs, it's with the long list of compounds that should be avoided when taking MAOIs. Here's a list. It's mainly psychoactive drugs. I don't mean to make too big a deal out of this, as the concentration needed for just a 50% reduction in MAO activity,164nM, is 64% greater than the 100nM dose that Atamna says is optimal for mitochondrial function. It's only a theoretical problem if you start taking a lot, like a couple hundred milligrams.

[Junk Master]

I don't think you'll feel endurance or strength increase, more a powerful anxiolytic effect, a confidence, sense of well-being, and lack of social anxiety.

[mitomutant]

Day 2. 1mg.

No effect

[mitomutant]

Day 3. 2mg

No effect.

[mitomutant]

Day 4. 2mg

No effect

[Junk Master]

You need 3 plus mg for a few days. I wouldn't give up on the anxiolytic/mood improving aspects until your pee is light blue. It's not like you're swilling fish tank cleaner and have to be concerned with contaminants.

[mitomutant]

Day 5. 5 mg

No effect.

Pee is slightly green, but definitively not blue

[mitomutant]

Day 6. 10mg

No effect.

As usual, I took the dose diluted in 300ml water. Today I noticed a strong bitter taste.

Pee definitively greenish

[mitomutant]

If pee color is a valid indicator, 10mg MB will last in my body for about 6 hours.

[Junk Master]

Hmm...I'd say you're a non-responder.

[mitomutant]

Day 7. Aborted

At the end of day 6 I started to feel very dizzy and with a strong brain fog. Also, my stomach was upset and I had a "very deep" fatigue. Even though I have some energy crisis from time to time due to my mito dysfunction, this is the first time I have had this feeling, specially the dizziness. I couldn´t barely walk following a straight line.

Is MB causing this ? No sure, but I read this after starting to have all these symptoms, so placebo is unlikely.

http://www.medicinen...ral/article.htm

(emphasis is mine)

SIDE EFFECTS: Nausea, stomach upset, diarrhea, vomiting, or bladder irritation may occur. If any of these effects continue or become bothersome, tell your doctor.This medication may cause your urine or stool to turn green-blue. This effect is harmless and will disappear when the medication is stopped.Remember that your doctor has prescribed this medication because he or she has judged that the benefit to you is greater than the risk of side effects. Many people using this medication do not have serious side effects.Tell your doctor immediately if any of these rare but very serious side effects occur: dizziness, fainting, high fever, fast/irregular/pounding heartbeat, pale/blue skin color, unusual tiredness.Seek immediate medical attention if this rare but very serious side effect occurs: chest pain.A very serious allergic reaction to this drug is rare. However, seek immediate medical attention if you notice any symptoms of a serious allergic reaction, including: rash, itching/swelling (especially of the face/tongue/throat), severe dizziness, trouble breathing.This is not a complete list of possible side effects. If you notice other effects not listed above, contact your doctor or pharmacist.In the US -Call your doctor for medical advice about side effects. You may report side effects to FDA at 1-800-FDA-1088.In Canada - Call your doctor for medical advice about side effects. You may report side effects to Health Canada at 1-866-234-2345.

AFAIK, Urolone comes in 65mg pills, much higher than the 10mg I was taking.
I also realize that lots of meds will have "dizziness" and "stomach upset" as potential side efffects but, again, symptons were clear and I didn´t know that these were MB potential side effects.

It has taken a week to recover from this and I am now stopping MB at least for a month. I will resume it in the 10mg dose.

Whay do you guys think ?

[Junk Master]

I'm curious why you would resume?

[mitomutant]

I'm curious why you would resume?

MB seems to be really good for my condition and before I dismiss it, I want to make sure that this was not a correlation. I cannot think of any confounding factor - I did not intentionally change any lifestyle habit during this testing - but taking it again is the only way to know. At worst, I will have trouble for another week (2-3 days really), but I do not think MB is doing any serious damage.

[Junk Master]

I can see why you'd want to keep giving it a chance, but did you feel any enhanced energy, endurance, or mood? Anything even close to PQQ?

I mention PQQ because I haven't tried it and I know you have, while I've used MB off and on for a while.

[mitomutant]

I can see why you'd want to keep giving it a chance, but did you feel any enhanced energy, endurance, or mood? Anything even close to PQQ?

I mention PQQ because I haven't tried it and I know you have, while I've used MB off and on for a while.

Nope, I felt nothing, but Niner warned me about my dosage being too low. There is a key point in that post:

I was particularly struck by the spontaneous locomotion slide, where the wheel rotations at 1mg/kg were significantly lower than control. Is that a calming effect, or is it a fall-off in energy?

MB has a dose-response curve that shows a potentially negative effect both on low and high doses. So, key thing here is finding out what the optimal dose is. Niner pointed out 100mg, a far cry from the 10mg I took on Day 6.

What MB dosage have you tried with ?