37 replies to this topic

[Tubemode]

It is apparent from much of the posts on the D-Serine thread that the latter stated compound isn't as efficacious as one thought. In truth, it is counterproductive from a cognitive standpoint, it seems. There are also anecdotes online to prove this claim.

There are no studies to back up the assumption that this is so, apart from a few vague studies done in reference to the effects D-Serine and most of the other Serine variants may have on GABAergic functioning. One, as I remember, made a reference to sedation, within the context of Serine variant consumption.

For the anecdotes, as promised (these are all from other forums, increasing the overall significance of such claims as the population sample is spread out):

D-SERINE ANECDOTES: PROHORMONE FORUM

i got that every now and then as well. started getting clumsy and brain freeze in the middle of a sentence...things that normally don't happen.

it gave me a weird mental state. I would be drowsy but awake. My brain felt numb like when when you are pulling all nighters for finals and on a caffiene binge...made it difficult to study. Don't necessarily think memory retention was better but was only on it for 3 days. Had a hangover effect for about 2 days after I quit.

my personal experience with it wasn't the best. took half dose for 3 days and had to stop. don't think my memory was worse. just made it difficult for me to study.

fyi, i havent really had much success with any nootropic i've tried ....piracetam and choline, lucidrol

Is there anyway this can have a reverse effect and actually make my memory worse?

D-SERINE ANECDOTES: LONGECITY FORUM

What? No, I said I hated D-Serine too.

Currently using Sarcosine, which is much better. D-Serine puts me to sleep.

Why don't you just give your friend the bottle, or sell it to your friend. If he/she was genuinely interested in the product, I'm sure he/she'd be more than willing to take it off your hands.

Its been quite a while since I posted. I purchased the D-Serine from SmartPowders and tried it for 5 days with variable dosing. Suffice it to say that I was extremely disappointed. Rather than mental clarity, enhanced memory & other cognitive benefits, what I experienced was a general irritability & mild mental disorientation (inability to think clearly, a general lack of mental direction/purpose). Tried taking the recommended 1.5 grams the first day, lowered it to 1 gram the next, then half a gram, then appx. a third of a gram for the last 2 days. The aforementioned 'side-effects' were shitty enough to prompt me to stop taking it. But a friend of mine had a vastly different experience...somewhat similar to that of @UnbeatableKing.

The effects of D-serine remind me of the bad reaction I have to Piracetam: irritbility. I'm done with it.

Sarcosine, on the other hand, has had a much warmer reception. UK's posts in the D-Serine thread come to mind. Raza has also posted about Sarcosine (I hope he doesn't mind).

I've been playing with Sarcosine + DAA recently. Was going to go for D-Serine + DAA first, but insofar as they perform the same function, comparitive studies seemed to point at sarcosine being better - and at any rate, it is much cheaper.

From what I know about the NMDA receptor and my experience with antagonists on it, my baseline level of NMDA activation is very much on the low end. I'm scatterbrained, not very present in my environment or my body; abstract thoughts are much 'louder' in my mind than the world around me.

My experience with Sarcosine + DAA confirms this. I can't say much about memory except that I haven't experienced any obvious failings in that area while on this combo, but the improvement on focus is clearly noticable and the effects on motor function coordination in particular are profound. I practise poi, and have been for long enough that progress is very slow for me now. The difference between spinning (the practise of moving with your poi) while on or off this stack is incredible. Errors are reduced by perhaps 75% - it feels like I'd been playing with a severe handicap all that time, with movements that I knew were possible just going wrong for no discernable reason, and all of that has been lifted off me. Or like I got in a year of practise and didn't notice, or something.

Other manual tasks appear well-served, as well. The barrier between thinking about something and doing it seems thinner; while performing a task, when I think of something related to my approach to it, application now follows quickly where before I would have had to stop and think about changing what I was doing - as if the 'thinking' and 'doing' parts of my brain are communicating better. Vice versa, thinking about what I'm actually doing rather than something else entirely seems easier, too.

So it has to be asked: Why isn't Sarcosine as well regarded? Primarily because the majority of all users are schizophrenics trying to attenuate NMDA-receptor related neural dysfunctions. It isn't very well known in nootropic circles.

[health_nutty]

I'll give Sarcosine a try the next time I order.

[gizmobrain]

My initial reaction to Sarcosine is that it seems to give a nice subtle boost for me in mood/motivation/focus/energy (especially when stacked with a dopaminergic). However, this particular boost that I speak of is short-lived (2 hours tops).

Also, other things that give this similar boost to me also tend to make other people "passionate"/short tempered/irritable, so I find it reasonable to assume that it won't work the same for everyone.

Edited by zrbarnes, 29 September 2012 - 09:33 PM.

[Rior]

I just put an order in for Sarcosine, I'm interested. Will update after some use. Ordered from CerebralHealth.

[X_Danny_X]

reading the posts of unbeatableking, the stimulating and cognitive benefits is roughly 2 hours. that is very short, you have to take it repeatedly throughout the day.

[Raza]

Sarcosine either improves my focus, grounds me in my environment and massively improves my motor coordination, or it kindof-sortof does all that while making me feel drowsy and causing my eyelids to feel heavy, as if I'm about to fall asleep. The result depends entirely on how alert and well-slept I start out as.

Which isn't surprising, since glycine (which it inhibits the reuptake of, and metabolises into), with the exception of its function as a co-agonist at the NMDA receptor site, is an inhibitory neurotransmitter. Maybe D-Serine had the same problems; if it's an agonist at one glycine receptor site, it may well affect the others, too.

In the end, it's proven to be the best sleep aid I have, and I think the positive effects on coordination last into the next day. I like that I discovered it, but it's not quite what I expected.


If anything, the diversity of reactions people have to this and D-Serine reminds me of tryptophan, which causes either acute drowsiness, anxiety or a sense of excited well-being and social connectedness depending on your state of mind upon consumption.

Edited by Raza, 29 September 2012 - 10:26 PM.

[Tubemode]

The half-life is somewhere around 1.5 to 2 hours (As referenced chiefly by studies and anecdotes). Repeated dosing shouldn't be an issue to be frank, primarily because Sarcosine is extremely cheap. The one issue that I did encounter was in terms of encapsulation. Sarcosine is extremely hydrophilic, so it made a huge mess when it came to capping.

Haven't had the opportunity to try D-Serine in the long-term. But this is good news: a side-effect free sleep-aid.

Edited by Tubemode, 29 September 2012 - 10:49 PM.

[X_Danny_X]

the problem is i dont have time to redose every two hours, i work and no food allowed, lol i hate to actually redose multiple times a day. one shot in the morning and be done with it.

i never do have the issues of sleepiness or drowsyness with D-Serine or noticed any of the side effects that others have posted, in fact I have problems sleeping lol.

i will finish my bottle with D-Serine then get into it with Sarcosine.

Edited by X_Danny_X, 29 September 2012 - 10:59 PM.

[TophetLOL]

All of this NMDA agonist talk sounds like a good way to cause or make yourself more suspectable to central pain syndrome (if you happen to suffer brain damage, even minor) , complex regional pain syndrome (if you happen to physically hurt an area of your body, even minor injuries is a concern), fibromyalgia, or some other nasty neurological pain syndromes that are not lethal but painful to point where many commit suicide.

[gizmobrain]

All of this NMDA agonist talk sounds like a good way to cause or make yourself more suspectable to central pain syndrome (if you happen to suffer brain damage, even minor) , complex regional pain syndrome (if you happen to physically hurt an area of your body, even minor injuries is a concern), fibromyalgia, or some other nasty neurological pain syndromes that are not lethal but painful to point where many commit suicide.

It would really only cause an increase in symptoms of pre-existing conditions for duration of the drug; in the case of Sarcosine, 2 hours. Just like any of the other supplements we experiment on ourselves with, it's always important to listen to the feedback of your body.

Edited by zrbarnes, 30 September 2012 - 07:50 PM.

[TophetLOL]

All of this NMDA agonist talk sounds like a good way to cause or make yourself more suspectable to central pain syndrome (if you happen to suffer brain damage, even minor) , complex regional pain syndrome (if you happen to physically hurt an area of your body, even minor injuries is a concern), fibromyalgia, or some other nasty neurological pain syndromes that are not lethal but painful to point where many commit suicide.

It would really only cause an increase in symptoms of pre-existing conditions for duration of the drug; in the case of Sarcosine, 2 hours. Just like any of the other supplements we experiment on ourselves with, it's always important to listen to the feedback of your body.

The problem is that the nature of these illnesses are often not apparent since they mask themselves as many different things, it takes an average of anywhere from five to ten years to get diagnosed with central pain syndrome because many doctors don't even know what it is and its diagnosis is done though elimination as there are no definitive ways to diagnosis it.

Often times the pain can be start out very mild or be thought to be a lingering result (such as scar tissue) of the injury which started it, but what is known is that it is degenerative. Yes the effects maybe only temporary IF you don't injure yourself during that time frame when your taking the drug, but if you do it may cause the illness to snowball out of control and once that happens your will probably wish you were dead. As there is no good treatment for it period, even strong opiates hardly do anything for neurological pain.

So before you try this drug I would suggest you seriously ask yourself if you have any lingering pain that can't be explained no matter how mild it is. I would try stablon (glutamate modulator, NMDA receptors are a glutamate subtype) first if you do and if it reduces your pain I'd stay far far away from NMDA agonists.

[Raza]

Mmm. Excess glutamate/NMDA activation has many downsides, but as with most things in the body, that doesn't make it a 'bad' receptor/neurotransmitter. NMDA hypofunction has problems too, and some of us suffer from those.

That said, you posted some interesting things. Do you have any sources for NMDA receptor implication in fibromyalgia?

[gizmobrain]

All of this NMDA agonist talk sounds like a good way to cause or make yourself more suspectable to central pain syndrome (if you happen to suffer brain damage, even minor) , complex regional pain syndrome (if you happen to physically hurt an area of your body, even minor injuries is a concern), fibromyalgia, or some other nasty neurological pain syndromes that are not lethal but painful to point where many commit suicide.

It would really only cause an increase in symptoms of pre-existing conditions for duration of the drug; in the case of Sarcosine, 2 hours. Just like any of the other supplements we experiment on ourselves with, it's always important to listen to the feedback of your body.

The problem is that the nature of these illnesses are often not apparent since they mask themselves as many different things, it takes an average of anywhere from five to ten years to get diagnosed with central pain syndrome because many doctors don't even know what it is and its diagnosis is done though elimination as there are no definitive ways to diagnosis it.

Often times the pain can be start out very mild or be thought to be a lingering result (such as scar tissue) of the injury which started it, but what is known is that it is degenerative. Yes the effects maybe only temporary IF you don't injure yourself during that time frame when your taking the drug, but if you do it may cause the illness to snowball out of control and once that happens your will probably wish you were dead. As there is no good treatment for it period, even strong opiates hardly do anything for neurological pain.

So before you try this drug I would suggest you seriously ask yourself if you have any lingering pain that can't be explained no matter how mild it is. I would try stablon (glutamate modulator, NMDA receptors are a glutamate subtype) first if you do and if it reduces your pain I'd stay far far away from NMDA agonists.

Maybe I should reiterate this... most chronic pain conditions are caused by an underlying condition (inflammatory, usually) combined with (or by itself) a neurologically induced increased pain sensitivity or lowered pain threshold.

Using glycine, sarcosine (n-methyl glycine), DMG (dimethyl glycine), or TMG (trimethyl glycine), will not cause an increase in the underlying conditions surrounding chronic pain disorders. If the neurological aspect of the chronic pain condition happens to be caused by over-firing of NMDA receptors, then you could possibly increase the amount of pain you feel for the duration of the supplement(2 hours), however, this won't be a dramatic increase. You are far more likely to feel increased pain effects from something like drinking alcohol (which causes NMDA up-regulation) or sleeping in the wrong position at night.

People seem to be concerned with anything revolving around NMDA receptor manipulation, but a lot of common substances directly or indirectly influence NMDA firing, even Aspirin.

The real danger here would not be a pain issue that would resolve itself in a matter of hours, but instead would be for someone with certain mood disorders. A couple hours might be the difference between life and death. However we play around with much stronger mood influencers than glycine. For instance, too much acetyl choline can cause depressive episodes and feelings of doom, yet many folks around here taken aCh precursors and some take aChE inhibitors.

I am not encouraging a flippant attitude towards taking new substances, but instead encouraging everyone to be concerned but not paranoid of everything you put in your body. Do the work, know the risks, take it slow, and quit taking something if it is causing side-effects.

Edited by zrbarnes, 01 October 2012 - 03:37 PM.

[TophetLOL]

Mmm. Excess glutamate/NMDA activation has many downsides, but as with most things in the body, that doesn't make it a 'bad' receptor/neurotransmitter. NMDA hypofunction has problems too, and some of us suffer from those.

That said, you posted some interesting things. Do you have any sources for NMDA receptor implication in fibromyalgia?

From the Cleavland Clinic: http://www.cleveland...algia-syndrome/

"Activation of N-methyl-d-aspartate (NMDA) receptors can lead to abnormal modulation of nociceptive impulses. Good experimental evidence exists that pain in FMS can be ameliorated by blocking NMDA receptors. A Swedish group was able to abolish pain by infusing ketamine in patients with FMS."

[Raza]

That's it?

NMDA antagonists block most every kind of peripheral pain. That's a long way from NMDA over-activation causing or worsening the condition permanently. You either have it or you don't, and if you do, maybe taking sarcosine will make the pain temporarily more intense... but that's it.

I think I'm with zbarnes on this one.

Edited by Raza, 01 October 2012 - 09:08 PM.

[Rior]

Wanted to mention that I received 100g of Sarcosine in the mail from Cerebral Health about 5 minutes ago, about to try my first dose. Will update with effects etc.

Edit:

Just took 1g on an empty stomach. I'm slightly sick, but other than that the only other supplement I've got in my body is Bacopa, and I've also got 50mg of Zoloft. As for taste, I put the gram in a small bit of apple cider and it went down without even the slightest hint of a taste. After trying that once with sulbutiamine, I was terrified of the taste of a whole gram of this similar-looking powder. But it wasn't a problem at all. Will update in an hour or two.

Edit2 (approximately 40 minutes after dose): Visual acuity has certainly increased, to the point where I can very confidently focus my eyes where it used to be difficult to do so. I've always had good eyes, however for some odd reason over the past year they've been less adept at staying focused. Not a glasses issue so much as it is a focusing issue I suppose. With this supplement, I find it second nature. I also notice more things visually, such as the way things reflect on surfaces. Physical coordination doesn't seem substantially different, however I haven't particularly tested it much yet. I'm getting into Tai Chi and Shaolin Kung Fu, so I'm sure it might come in handy there. My headache that I've had all morning has disappeared. Strangely enough, I even feel less sick than I did previously. I'm beginning to wonder if I might happen to be one of those people who react very wonderfully to sarcosine? I'll continue updating as it goes on. So far it seems yes.

Edited by Rior, 03 October 2012 - 09:50 PM.

[incognitivito]

Did any of you guys straight up taste your sarcosine by itself? Does it have the consistency of sugar and taste kind of sweet? I ordered mine from:

http://www.bonanza.c...CFQWnnQod5gsA-g

and I'm wondering if I didn't just receive 30g's of sugar.

[Rior]

It tastes like almost nothing. It certainly has effects though. I decided I didn't like it after a little while, it made me a little irritable and more susceptible to hypoglycemia.

[Tubemode]

Sarcosine is really sweet. The smell isn't worth anything singing about though. Smells oddly fishy.

[incognitivito]

Good deal. Thank guys

[SuperjackDid_]

I'll give Sarcosine a try the next time I order.

Any update from you health_nutty ,how many supplement /nootropic you have tried so far ?

[health_nutty]

I'll give Sarcosine a try the next time I order.

Any update from you health_nutty ,how many supplement /nootropic you have tried so far ?

Sarcosine had no positive effects on me. It eventually caused irritability just like D-serine and Piracetam do. Seems like my brain does not like it's NMDA receptors agonized.

I've tried a lot of noots. Pira / ani / oxi / Pram racetams, cdp choline, alpha gpc, sulbtiamine, vinpocetine, bacopa, ashwagandha, creatine, CILEPT, dmaa, methylene blue, d-serine, sarcosine, phosphatidylserine.

I"ll update my thread for my current stack.

Happy to answer any questions.

[chziime]

So, I typically favor NMDA antagonists... it fits more with how I would like to feel and how my mindset already is... detached, calm, and, most importantly, less addicted to oft-ingested substances such as kratom or klonopin. I do, however, feel the negative symptoms of schizophrenia, things I have accepted though would like to change once in a while (it gets old to not "care" about things, though it makes life much easier to justify). I have had sarcosine for a while, took 2g one afternoon, and I was overly alert and connected, overstimulated to a point, I guess the way most normal people feel, caring about things... but this would have the exact opposite effects of NMDA antagonists' anti-addictive/withdrawal effect, right?

I may try sarcosine again once I have weaned off 1mg/day klonopin for the 15th time.

[Killword]

Speaking of treating negative symptoms, does it help (or has it helped) at all with social anhedonia/withdrawal?

[gizmobrain]

Speaking of treating negative symptoms, does it help (or has it helped) at all with social anhedonia/withdrawal?

It's a subtle boost that last for only about an hour or two at most. So yes... but it's not really ideal.

[NMDAstronaut]

I've had a different experience with Sarcosine for about 4 days it required little re-dosing. 1.5grams in am and another .5-1gram in afternoon and I was practically euphoric, and I'm normally kind of depressed and anxious. It totally wiped out my anxiety and vastly reduced depression, also humor and comic timing and social ease went way up. Day 5 and 6 have been less impressive and I have required more. Needing total of 3 grams through day to have similar effect to earlier and still the effect is about 80% of what it was first four days. As with most supplements, and I've tried many, it looks like a tolerance may be setting in but we'll see. If it does, this may still be very useful if cycled with some of my other favorite noots with differing mechanisms of action.

[Ames]

The good news on sarcosine:

 

http://www.sciencedi...19701861200215X

 

The bad news on sarcosine:

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3638352/

 

 

I'm assuming that sarcosine is created from both endogenous dimethylglycine and trimethylglycine metabolism. A question that I would have is if the benefits of sarcosine can be realized from DMG and/or TMG and if the possible cancer risk could be somehwat attenutated. Although, given TMGs promotion as a GH and IGF-1 enhancer, I suppose that I'm dubious.

Edited by golgi1, 09 August 2014 - 02:32 AM.

[Mind_Paralysis]

Hmm, certainly not a encouraging report, that Sarcosine may play a role in prostate-cancer development.

This really does appear to be the GOLD standard among schizophreniacs, and a lot of them are depending on it in their stacks - it's one of the most vital noots they take, removing it can often be catastrophic.

 

It would be interesting to compare this data with the prevalence of prostate-cancer in Schizophreniacs, to see whether they have LESS prostate-cancer, or MORE, than the average.

 

If the conclusions about Sarcosine is correct, then they should have lower prevalence than the mainline population, yes?

 

If it's the same, or higher, then that does present both a problem and an opportunity for them. With no difference in prevalence, then this find might be incorrect, so they can keep dosing. ( they need HIGH doses btw, stacks including 5-7 GRAMS isn't uncommon.)

 

With a higher prevalence, they might need a pretty steady intake of anti-carcinogenic compounds as well.

[normalizing]

i dont see any help on how to acquire sarcosine. i checked various vitamin places, but none of them has it. i assume its sold in bulk powder online somewhere? thats never certain its good quality tho. i would REALLY appreciate some pointers!

[Mind_Paralysis]

Alibaba.com, my friend - industrial grade Sarcosine. Don't forget, Sarcosine is used to manufacture several chemical products, within the manufacturing-industry, like toothpaste.

 

bit.ly/1p3bb8i

 

I actually got the idea from a thread on Reddit, some schizophreniacs got into talks about Sarcosine, and one of them had found the most economic solution - he bought it in GIANT bulk, huuge barrels for industrial manufacturing. It might not be as pure as medical-grade tho', which can be problematic, but according to what he said, it's just a matter of finding a good manufacturer.

Apparently he actually had connections in the manufacturing-industry, so he just bought from them, apparently it was higher quality than most industrial, because they were manufacturing something that needed higher quality raw-materials.

 

The link leads to a source which is 99,5% pure, which certainly doesn't sound bad at all. Not sure what that .5% might cause tho', I don't really know much about this, truthfully. It's always a good idea to get whatever chemicals intended for ingestion, analysed however, and I imagine the analysis for Sarcosine isn't too complicated, so probably pretty straightforward to ensure yourself that the product is pure, once you have it in hand.

 

A good tip, if you're interested, is to simply get together with a few other guys, and then make a group-buy. And since Sarcosine is a tried and true substance, with quite a bit of knowledge behind it, you should be able to get a couple of peeps together.

 

Let's see... that's one metric ton of Sarcosine... and let's say the price is $14000 / metric ton - that'd be $14 / kilogram, which would even out to about... 1 cent / GRAM.

1 cent for one gram... for a Schizophreniac needing 6 grams per day, that would still only cost 6 cents per day, and for one year, that would be... 1,54 ( 1536 grams) kilos per year... which can't be more than $21.

 

...

 

Seems to be pretty cheap, man. Probably worth a try, if you really, really need it. You can probably sell it out as well, if it doesn't work, and even if you only add a fraction to the price, people will still buy it, and you'll make a profit.

Edited by Stinkorninjor, 12 August 2014 - 11:39 PM.