79 replies to this topic

[xEva]

{Grays probably avoid Russians if possible}

Smart animals, lol, who said they were cretins?

Although I wouldn't call the Grays "cretins" I see many things that are lacking in them.

Luminosity, you speak of grays as if you met them. Have you?

Those alien procreation stories... I find them offensive. How can you believe them? Do you really think that representatives of an advanced civilization would cross the vastness of Cosmos just to get into someone's privates?


Just to see an alien world, to be a fly on the wall... I would certainly sign up for such an excursion. How fascinating that would be!

[xEva]

The thing that surprises me is that astronomers practically never report UFO sightings, even though they can spend entire nigths staring at the sky. Why is this you think?

-?? What you are saying is that there are not that many reported sightings by pilots. And that this somehow reflects badly on the whole phenomenon. Why? Maybe aliens are not crowding us yet. That would be the most reasonable explanation. I guess what you are saying is why there are so many civilian sightings in comparison to professionals like pilots and astronomers. Well, the obvious fact is that civilians often mistake natural phenomena for UFO. But it does not immediately imply that all sightings are false. That's where you're making an error in logic. The phenomenon exists. Who and what is behind it is a question.

But I will tell you why I think the saucers I saw may be normally invisible. I think I got really lucky to see them, because of the unique weather conditions. It was dark and raining fine mist. A lamppost illuminated the saucers from behind, tracing a sharp silhouette, indicating a hard and very smooth material. You would expect such a hard and smooth surface to have a reflection of light from another lamppost, especially since it had to be wet. But it did not. Instead, it diffused light in such a way that its texture looked as if it was a piece of a cloud or fog. But of course it would be incongruous for 2 identical pieces of fog to have very sharp symmetrical outlines and to maintain their shape while flying through thick humid air.

So, I think that they are made to diffuse light, which would make them practically invisible in daytime against the sky. They would blend right in and you would not see a thing. I also suspect that they similarly "diffuse" the sound they make -- there was something strange about the silence in which it took place, as if my ears could not hear it but the brain did register that something about it was odd.

Edited by xEva, 04 October 2012 - 09:52 PM.

[Luminosity]

Churchill, you can believe what you want. I don't expect everyone to believe in UFO's. I realize the things I wrote about here seem fantastical to most people. I just think that you should have better arguments for your beliefs, especially if you are going to be so certain. Even in your last post, there are errors in comprehension and logic.

As opposed to your posts which are full of large assumptions that what you have been reading is not just a lie or has a simpler non alien explanation?

I have many reasons to believe that book. It accords with other information from multiple sources that I trust. There have also been thousands of people reporting UFO encounters, many of them are credible. My reasons for accepting that book are not "assumptions."

1) Your assumption that FTL is even possible.

Have no idea what FTL is.

2) Your assumption that there are multiple alien species out there, but none of them have tried to colonize us yet.

They have exploited us similarly enough without living here.

We have a highly habitable planet here,

. . . to whom?

one virus bomb later and most of the population is wiped out as well as resistance for colonization.

This contains many assumptions. Life is not a computer game. Where does your certainty come from?

You brought up the indigenous population to strengthen your argument then just follow through with it, what happened to their land?

In some places, like most of Africa, they are still the vast majority. Westerners colonized parts of China, and all of India, but where are they now? Your assumption that aliens want to live here is unsupported. Your assumption that they could live here is also. Most of the aliens species also know better than to do something like the virus bomb idea. The closest parallel that I can see to our relationship with aliens is the relationship between highly developed societies and less developed ones on this planet. That having been said, there are obviously differences. Also, anyone who thinks that all aliens are altruistic because their technology is so developed should look at Earth's history.

3) That an advanced alien species comes to this planet but does not bring appropriate hosts from their home planet to procreate.

This was dealt with previously. Poor comprehension.

4) An advanced alien species has somehow managed to not develop their biotech to a level much above ours? . . .

Again, poor comprehension or just disregard for facts previously stated. Their biotech is obviously well above ours. Your assumption that it would take a certain particular shape that you seem to have plucked from science fiction, or your imagination, is unwarranted.

Where is the weight of evidence to back up your fantastical claims?

Evidence has come to light; including eye witness accounts, video, photographs, artifacts, implants that move when surgeons try to remove them, and bodies. People who were at Roswell have come forward. The local undertaker saw the bodies. If you want to look at it, the truth is out there. Many times people disregard perfectly good evidence because it doesn't fit in with their preconceived notions.

Even if I was to come up with the best argument in the world, what would be the point? You would just then say I was an agent of the Grays.

O.K., you are not an agent of the Grays. You don't have the best argument in the world. If you did, I KNOW that they are out there, so it wouldn't matter to me, but I wouldn't have given you such a hard time. You might be an agent of a some kind of fictional computer game universe where all the rules of science throughout the entire galaxy are known and can be spit out like bullets. Reality isn't like that. Maybe you can convince me how you would know every little thing about the aliens, their technology, motivations, science, what kind of planet they need to live on, etc. There's no way you would know that.

You can believe what you want. I think I've made my points. I'm going to stop arguing with you now.

* * *

As to what Turnbuckle shared about Russian astronomers seeing more UFO's than others there, that bolsters my point that Russians have no deal with the aliens. The major effort we've made in this country to silence pilots and others who see stuff isn't present there.

xEva,

I think you would really enjoy reading Challenges of Change by Stanley Fulham. According to the book, the reason the Grays come here is that they seem to have lost the ability to reproduce without exploiting people and animals for genetic materials and other purposes.

Your ideas about how the aliens might diffuse light to cloak themselves are interesting. I don't know myself but I've thought they must have some way or they would have been sighted a lot more. Interesting theory. Interesting experience too, thanks for sharing it.

Edited by Luminosity, 05 October 2012 - 05:50 AM.

[platypus]

Don't you think UFOs would be visible to computers & sensors?

Sure, but it's probably less likely with a professional because they'd be working with a narrow field of view. Here's a UFO captured by an amateur.

Is it a bug?

There is a better video of it here but I wasn't able to run it.

Amaterus astronomers spend entire nights outiside staring at the sky, taking long-exposure photographs etc. Then there are the people who spot meteors, northern lights, satellites, noctilucent clouds etc. Then people have full-sky cameras recording meteor-streaks. How come these people don't report UFOs more often if they are that common?

Also, I would not put much weight on some Russian pre-internet (?) reports - Russians are also notoriously superstitious.

[platypus]

Evidence has come to light; including eye witness accounts, video, photographs, artifacts, implants that move when surgeons try to remove them, and bodies.

What artifacts? As far as I know no "alien" artefact has ever been found anywhere. Not even an alien clothespin!

[xEva]

Also, I would not put much weight on some Russian pre-internet (?) reports - Russians are also notoriously superstitious.

As a Russian, I object. What, you're poo-pooing the people who sent out the first sputnik, first man in space (and not to forget the first dog, lol) and dreamed up space flights? (Tsiolkovsky)

I agree that Limunosity is confusing fiction for facts, but you too... Do you really think that the universe this size has spawned only one alive planet out of.... it's really mind-boggling how many galaxies x star systems there are... even if you take just a fraction of that number to account for planets like ours... and that just supposing that life can be only like ours. But my personal take is that life will use whatever materials are abundant in a given environment, and if so, it may be hiding in every nook and cranny in the universe. Or! If life is rare -- so much more reason to visit Earth and check such a rarity out.

Why is it so difficult for you to accept the possibility that not only we may not be alone, but also visited?

Edited by xEva, 06 October 2012 - 09:01 AM.

[platypus]

Also, I would not put much weight on some Russian pre-internet (?) reports - Russians are also notoriously superstitious.

As a Russian, I object. What, you're poo-pooing the people who sent out the first sputnik, first man in space (and not to forget the first dog, lol) and dreamed up space flights? (Tsiolkovsky)

Right, I just remember seeing a stream of paranormal news coming out of Russia since decades. It gave me an impression that at the grassroots-level there was a lot of interest in these kinds of things.

I agree that Limunosity is confusing fiction for facts, but you too... Do you really think that the universe this size has spawned only one alive planet out of...

Surely life exists elsewhere in the galaxy...it just does not look like they've visited us, at least not lately.

Why is it so difficult for you to accept the possibility that not only we may not be alone, but also visited?

But where's the evidence? We need something more tangible than just eyewitness reports..

[xEva]

Also, I would not put much weight on some Russian pre-internet (?) reports - Russians are also notoriously superstitious.

As a Russian, I object. What, you're poo-pooing the people who sent out the first sputnik, first man in space (and not to forget the first dog, lol) and dreamed up space flights? (Tsiolkovsky)

Right, I just remember seeing a stream of paranormal news coming out of Russia since decades. It gave me an impression that at the grassroots-level there was a lot of interest in these kinds of things.

I also remember all those Finns coming across the bay to St.Petersburg with the sole aim to get smashed drunk which they always did. I hope it does not mean that all Finns are alcoholics.

As for paranormal, yes there was an undue interest in the 1990s. So?

Besides, what's paranormal got to do with the argument at hand? If Russian scientists were superstitious as you claim (and the talk was about astronomers), then they should see goblins and fairies, not UFOs.

[xEva]

Also, I would not put much weight on some Russian pre-internet (?) reports - Russians are also notoriously superstitious.

As a Russian, I object. What, you're poo-pooing the people who sent out the first sputnik, first man in space (and not to forget the first dog, lol) and dreamed up space flights? (Tsiolkovsky)

Right, I just remember seeing a stream of paranormal news coming out of Russia since decades. It gave me an impression that at the grassroots-level there was a lot of interest in these kinds of things.

I also remember all those Finns coming across the bay to St.Petersburg with the sole aim to get smashed drunk which they always did. I hope it does not mean that all Finns are alcoholics.

As for paranormal, yes there was an undue interest in the 1990s. So?

Besides, what's paranormal got to do with the argument at hand? If Russian scientists were superstitious as you claim (and the talk was about astronomers), then they should see goblins and fairies, not UFOs.

[platypus]

Besides, what's paranormal got to do with the argument at hand? If Russian scientists were superstitious as you claim (and the talk was about astronomers), then they should see goblins and fairies, not UFOs.

Some of the UFO-material borders on the paranormal. And if people can see fairies and ghosts, why couldn't they see flying saucers too?

[shadowhawk]

Define UFO'S.

[Luminosity]

xEva,

Are you bipolar? One day you are friendly; the next day dismissive. I can't keep up with the mood swings.

Platypus,

Interesting name. When Europeans were first shown a platypus, they thought it was a hoax. When Australians aborigines first saw a European ship on the horizon, it was so far outside their frame of reference that they ignored it, until their chief acknowledged it.

Your question on where the evidence is has been addressed previously. What you do with data is shown by how you dismissed the report of sightings by Russian astronomers with a racial slur (ad hominem attack.) That was a perfectly good data point.

Edited by Luminosity, 13 October 2012 - 06:12 AM.

[churchill]

@luminosity
I think there should be better arguments for your beliefs, so far I have heard none, all I have heard is you stating things as if they are facts. Your strongly held belief comes from an emotional response, not from the evidence, if they did then you would at least admit that you may be wrong. The lack of evidence for aliens visiting our planet is huge, yet you discount it.

FTL - faster than light travel. I am surprised you have not come across it given that you supposedly into aliens. It is a shame you don't spend more time looking into the science of space and thinking for yourself. It is how the aliens would get to our planet. How do you think they get here? On a Generation ship? Or are you saying the aliens come from other planets in our solar system? Otherwise it is FTL.

Also I would like to point out that as of writing this at least 5 aliens have voted in this poll, I would love for them to chime in to give me the full low down on what it is to be an alien:)

There are many ways an alien could take us out. Virus attack is one of them. Read up on the colonisation of South America for examples of how a virus wiped out much of the indigenous population which allowed colonisation to go ahead (Guns, Germs and Steel is a good book on this if you are interested). We have strains of bacteria sitting around in labs and military facilities today which if released could harm the current population. We have the ability to manufacture bacteria and viruses today with genetic modification, splicing together a more virulent for. So tell me again how an advanced species does not have access to technology which we already have? They could target viruses at our food supply.

Alternatively they could just tow asteroids to impact into earth, messing up our ecosystem enough to kill off vaste swathes of the population. They could knock out our GPS satellites. None of this would require them to endanger themselves. Civilization would collapse, the military would no longer be any sort of threat without its logistic chain and the world would descend into anarchy.

I am following your logic to say that ours is a highly habitable planet. You have stated that the aliens require humans to procreate, therefore on their home planet they must have had human like organisms which lived on the planet with them at some point in their evolution. Therefore our planet is habitable for them.

You have not countered the following at all, other than saying you don't know. You seem to know very little about a lot of things.

2) Your assumption that there are multiple alien species out there, but none of them have tried to colonize us yet.

3) That an advanced alien species comes to this planet but does not bring appropriate hosts from their home planet to procreate.

4) (Changed as you agreed on this point so I follow the logic) An advanced alien species has a high level of biotech, but they don't deploy it against us because?

xEva,

Are you bipolar? One day you are friendly; the next day dismissive. I can't keep up with the mood swings.

Platypus,

Interesting name. When Europeans were first shown a platypus, they thought it was a hoax. When Australians aborigines first saw a European ship on the horizon, it was so far outside their frame of reference that they ignored it, until their chief acknowledged it.

Your question on where the evidence is has been addressed previously. What you do with data is shown by how you dismissed the report of sightings by Russian astronomers with a racial slur (ad hominem attack.) That was a perfectly good data point.

Neither of these are relevant to the discussion at hand. Shall I ask you whether you have ADHD because you cannot keep focused on the topic? Or can we move away from insulting each other like children.

[Turnbuckle]

The lack of evidence for aliens visiting our planet is huge, yet you discount it.

Lack of evidence? With thousands of sightings, there is no lack of evidence at all.

FTL - faster than light travel. I am surprised you have not come across it given that you supposedly into aliens. It is a shame you don't spend more time looking into the science of space and thinking for yourself. It is how the aliens would get to our planet. How do you think they get here? On a Generation ship? Or are you saying the aliens come from other planets in our solar system? Otherwise it is FTL.

A straw-man argument. Given the ability to travel arbitrarily close to the speed of light (which is beyond our present understanding but doesn't violate causality) time dilation allows one to travel across the entire galaxy in just a few years ship-time. An ex-NASA scientist wrote an excellent book on the subject--Unconventional Flying Objects: A Scientific Analysis.

[churchill]

The lack of evidence for aliens visiting our planet is huge, yet you discount it.

Lack of evidence? With thousands of sightings, there is no lack of evidence at all.

FTL - faster than light travel. I am surprised you have not come across it given that you supposedly into aliens. It is a shame you don't spend more time looking into the science of space and thinking for yourself. It is how the aliens would get to our planet. How do you think they get here? On a Generation ship? Or are you saying the aliens come from other planets in our solar system? Otherwise it is FTL.

A straw-man argument. Given the ability to travel arbitrarily close to the speed of light (which is beyond our present understanding but doesn't violate causality) time dilation allows one to travel across the entire galaxy in just a few years ship-time. An ex-NASA scientist wrote an excellent book on the subject--Unconventional Flying Objects: A Scientific Analysis.

I am talking about billions of humans on this planet, if aliens were visiting in such frequency there would be much more evidence than this. To explain this away a government consipiracy on a global scale is employed, which I do not believe.

It is not a straw man argument, I am attacking a foundation of his argument, if aliens have no means to get to our planet then they cannot have visited our planet.

Luminsoity did not even argue against FTL as he did not know what it was. But the point is that aliens are much more advanced than us, and thus should be able to reproduce perfectly fine without us and be able to nullify us as a threat with there bioetch. Even your argument points to them being much more advanced. You yourself have stated as such even with your close to the speed of light travel, which is not close to being possible currently.

Just to be clear on your position. You believe that aliens came here on a generation ship? If so to what purpose?

[Turnbuckle]

The lack of evidence for aliens visiting our planet is huge, yet you discount it.

Lack of evidence? With thousands of sightings, there is no lack of evidence at all.

FTL - faster than light travel. I am surprised you have not come across it given that you supposedly into aliens. It is a shame you don't spend more time looking into the science of space and thinking for yourself. It is how the aliens would get to our planet. How do you think they get here? On a Generation ship? Or are you saying the aliens come from other planets in our solar system? Otherwise it is FTL.

A straw-man argument. Given the ability to travel arbitrarily close to the speed of light (which is beyond our present understanding but doesn't violate causality) time dilation allows one to travel across the entire galaxy in just a few years ship-time. An ex-NASA scientist wrote an excellent book on the subject--Unconventional Flying Objects: A Scientific Analysis.

I am talking about billions of humans on this planet, if aliens were visiting in such frequency there would be much more evidence than this. To explain this away a government consipiracy on a global scale is employed, which I do not believe.

It is not a straw man argument, I am attacking a foundation of his argument, if aliens have no means to get to our planet then they cannot have visited our planet.

Luminsoity did not even argue against FTL as he did not know what it was. But the point is that aliens are much more advanced than us, and thus should be able to reproduce perfectly fine without us and be able to nullify us as a threat with there bioetch. Even your argument points to them being much more advanced. You yourself have stated as such even with your close to the speed of light travel, which is not close to being possible currently.

Just to be clear on your position. You believe that aliens came here on a generation ship? If so to what purpose?

If you do not understand time dilation or how aliens could get here in a just a few years ship-time, then I recommend you look at the book I reverenced above. You might also look up the straw man argument, because that is exactly what you did when you said visitors would require FLT or generational travel when the original poster mentioned neither.

To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.

But Einstein pointed out long ago that time dilation results in the traveler aging less than those that stay at home. As one gets closer and closer to the speed of light, that effect is increased without limit.

[platypus]

Your question on where the evidence is has been addressed previously. What you do with data is shown by how you dismissed the report of sightings by Russian astronomers with a racial slur (ad hominem attack.) That was a perfectly good data point.

We need to hear more info on these Russian astronomers (please provide source). If this data was pre-interenet, individual astronomers could not easily spread information that would make many observed UFO-types into identified objects. Also, secret military progammes, rocket launches, satellites etc. must have created helluva many false UFO sightings.

The lack of evidence for aliens visiting our planet is huge, yet you discount it.

Lack of evidence? With thousands of sightings, there is no lack of evidence at all.

In the west just about _everyone_ carries a camera/video recorder in their pocket. Where are the believeable recordings, preferably the ones where the phenomena has been recorded from multiple vantage points?

A straw-man argument. Given the ability to travel arbitrarily close to the speed of light (which is beyond our present understanding but doesn't violate causality) time dilation allows one to travel across the entire galaxy in just a few years ship-time. An ex-NASA scientist wrote an excellent book on the subject--Unconventional Flying Objects: A Scientific Analysis.

So, where are they?

[Turnbuckle]

Your question on where the evidence is has been addressed previously. What you do with data is shown by how you dismissed the report of sightings by Russian astronomers with a racial slur (ad hominem attack.) That was a perfectly good data point.

We need to hear more info on these Russian astronomers (please provide source). If this data was pre-interenet, individual astronomers could not easily spread information that would make many observed UFO-types into identified objects. Also, secret military progammes, rocket launches, satellites etc. must have created helluva many false UFO sightings.

The lack of evidence for aliens visiting our planet is huge, yet you discount it.

Lack of evidence? With thousands of sightings, there is no lack of evidence at all.

In the west just about _everyone_ carries a camera/video recorder in their pocket. Where are the believeable recordings, preferably the ones where the phenomena has been recorded from multiple vantage points?

Proof and evidence are different things. Certainly there is not proof that aliens are visiting us--at least not for me--but there is a ton of evidence.

As for your question about multiple vantage points, a quick search reveals this one from last year--UFO over Jerusalem 2011 - Five angles - Dome of the Rock sighting

[xEva]

xEva,
Are you bipolar? One day you are friendly; the next day dismissive. I can't keep up with the mood swings.

lol, sorry. You know, moody people are the last to be aware of their moods.

The lack of evidence for aliens visiting our planet is huge, yet you discount it.

Proof and evidence are different things. Certainly there is not proof that aliens are visiting us--at least not for me--but there is a ton of evidence.

As for your question about multiple vantage points, a quick search reveals this one from last year--UFO over Jerusalem 2011 - Five angles - Dome of the Rock sighting

Lack of evidence is huge? lol Interesting choice of words.

This video I bumped into was a good recap of recent TV news (except for the Coast to Coast radio show toward the end). It also includes the Jerusalem sighting posted above by Turnbuckle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87PRVP4EQAo&feature=endscreen&NR=1

@luminosity
I think there should be better arguments for your beliefs, so far I have heard none, all I have heard is you stating things as if they are facts. Your strongly held belief comes from an emotional response,

Churchill, it's the other way around. I agree with you re Luminocity's stand on grays, but your own FTL argument just does not make it, imo. You take the very primitive level of science today as the last word in technology? Please.

Not only that, you show that you, like many others, do not understand that special relativity states that nothing can be seen moving faster than light, which is not quite the same as moving faster than light. Why, according to our completely lacking cohesion theories, parts of the universe are flying apart at several times c. We don't even know what space is. And you take this pathetic state of affairs as an argument?... Sad. The way some UFOs move indicate that they manipulate what we call 'gravity'.

The saddest of your anthropomorphic arguments is the assumption that the first thing aliens should do when they come upon a living planet is to destroy its dominant life form and perhaps drop an asteroid or two on whatever is left.

Come on guys. We need brains.

Edited by xEva, 13 October 2012 - 05:25 PM.

[Turnbuckle]

Lack of evidence is huge? lol Interesting choice of words.

This video I bumped into was a good recap of recent TV news (except for the Coast to Coast radio show toward the end). It also includes the Jerusalem sighting posted above by Turnbuckle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87PRVP4EQAo&feature=endscreen&NR=1

I'd say most of this video footage is easily explainable as cloud formations, fireworks (the three objects with tails that dance around without much purpose, and the exploding object that develops into a celestial cross), and out of control missiles (the spiral), and multi stage missiles (the image above). The Jerusalem sighting is the hardest to explain unless it was fraud. The caller on Art Bell is an obvious fraud.

Edited by Turnbuckle, 13 October 2012 - 06:03 PM.

[churchill]

The lack of evidence for aliens visiting our planet is huge, yet you discount it.

Lack of evidence? With thousands of sightings, there is no lack of evidence at all.

FTL - faster than light travel. I am surprised you have not come across it given that you supposedly into aliens. It is a shame you don't spend more time looking into the science of space and thinking for yourself. It is how the aliens would get to our planet. How do you think they get here? On a Generation ship? Or are you saying the aliens come from other planets in our solar system? Otherwise it is FTL.

A straw-man argument. Given the ability to travel arbitrarily close to the speed of light (which is beyond our present understanding but doesn't violate causality) time dilation allows one to travel across the entire galaxy in just a few years ship-time. An ex-NASA scientist wrote an excellent book on the subject--Unconventional Flying Objects: A Scientific Analysis.

I am talking about billions of humans on this planet, if aliens were visiting in such frequency there would be much more evidence than this. To explain this away a government consipiracy on a global scale is employed, which I do not believe.

It is not a straw man argument, I am attacking a foundation of his argument, if aliens have no means to get to our planet then they cannot have visited our planet.

Luminsoity did not even argue against FTL as he did not know what it was. But the point is that aliens are much more advanced than us, and thus should be able to reproduce perfectly fine without us and be able to nullify us as a threat with there bioetch. Even your argument points to them being much more advanced. You yourself have stated as such even with your close to the speed of light travel, which is not close to being possible currently.

Just to be clear on your position. You believe that aliens came here on a generation ship? If so to what purpose?

If you do not understand time dilation or how aliens could get here in a just a few years ship-time, then I recommend you look at the book I reverenced above. You might also look up the straw man argument, because that is exactly what you did when you said visitors would require FLT or generational travel when the original poster mentioned neither.

To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.

But Einstein pointed out long ago that time dilation results in the traveler aging less than those that stay at home. As one gets closer and closer to the speed of light, that effect is increased without limit.

My argument is that aliens have advanced space travel technology, therefore they have advanced biotech. Where exactly are you seeing the straw man in that?

If you are saying they used near light travel, that is still advanced space travel technology and therefore I would argue they have advanced biotech.

I understand the time dilation concept, however the home world the ship came from which funded the journey still works in real time, so why did they launch the expedition, when they would not see any results for 100 or 1000 years to come?

Ok then there are three options faster than light travel ship, near light travel ship and generation ship, which one do you believe the aliens used?

[churchill]

xEva,
Are you bipolar? One day you are friendly; the next day dismissive. I can't keep up with the mood swings.

lol, sorry. You know, moody people are the last to be aware of their moods.

The lack of evidence for aliens visiting our planet is huge, yet you discount it.

Proof and evidence are different things. Certainly there is not proof that aliens are visiting us--at least not for me--but there is a ton of evidence.

As for your question about multiple vantage points, a quick search reveals this one from last year--UFO over Jerusalem 2011 - Five angles - Dome of the Rock sighting

Lack of evidence is huge? lol Interesting choice of words.

This video I bumped into was a good recap of recent TV news (except for the Coast to Coast radio show toward the end). It also includes the Jerusalem sighting posted above by Turnbuckle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87PRVP4EQAo&feature=endscreen&NR=1

@luminosity
I think there should be better arguments for your beliefs, so far I have heard none, all I have heard is you stating things as if they are facts. Your strongly held belief comes from an emotional response,

Churchill, it's the other way around. I agree with you re Luminocity's stand on grays, but your own FTL argument just does not make it, imo. You take the very primitive level of science today as the last word in technology? Please.

Not only that, you show that you, like many others, do not understand that special relativity states that nothing can be seen moving faster than light, which is not quite the same as moving faster than light. Why, according to our completely lacking cohesion theories, parts of the universe are flying apart at several times c. We don't even know what space is. And you take this pathetic state of affairs as an argument?... Sad. The way some UFOs move indicate that they manipulate what we call 'gravity'.

The saddest of your anthropomorphic arguments is the assumption that the first thing aliens should do when they come upon a living planet is to destroy its dominant life form and perhaps drop an asteroid or two on whatever is left.

Come on guys. We need brains.

I think you did not read what I wrote properly, where exactly did I say that FTL was not possible?

My argument is that aliens have advanced space travel technology (FTL), therefore they have advanced biotech. My point is that they are entirely not primitive and like us, but much more advanced technologically, and so his whole they need us to procreate does not make any sense.

Those are not the first things I think an alien would necessarily do. Those are the first things I think an alien as luminosity describes them to be would do.

[fogisa]

what about Phoenix lights?

[Turnbuckle]

The Jerusalem sighting is a hoax too, as this link shows. Apparently someone added in shaking to give it a more realistic feel, but the process left in mirrored margins that show up if you look carefully. And if they added shaking, then they certainly added the UFO as well.

[corb]

Here you go, guys. A run of the mill 60's UFO.
Notice how UFO sightings have diminished to pretty much nothing since these beauties were taken out of service ?



There's your fast moving lights in the sky.
Triangular UFOs are drones flying in formation in low altitude over cities during training missions. Also flares and balloons.

And no, this isn't irony, I'm quite serious.

[Luminosity]

The Phoenix lights are a good point. One person who saw and videotaped them was a doctor. There were many sightings.

Everyone can believe what they want, but there's definitely some people here who are rejecting good enough information because, for whatever reason, they want to hang onto their current beliefs. There has been a sixty year long disinformation campaign to portray people that encounter UFO's as nuts and to discredit individual pieces of information as much as possible. There were animal mutilations in the South, I think in Texas and the sheriff got involved and had a local vet do a necropsy. She said that something unnatural had happened. She and the sheriff checked with a crime lab to see if they could do a certain test that she wanted done. They said they could. The remains were sent there. Lo and behold they said they could not do the test. That kind of thing is one way of keeping evidence from being seen. When asked, the vet said she thought someone might have leaned on the lab. Those kind of things happen. Also, there has just been a straight out campaign to make people who see or believe in UFO's be looked at as nuts. It even included publishing exaggerated, ridiculous reports of UFO's in a notorious tabloid, the National Enquirer. There was a long term, documented relationship between Generoso (Gene) Pope, the publisher of the National Enquirer, and the head of the CIA. They met when Pope worked was in the military or military intelligence or something. The first example with the vet was on Coast to Coast radio. Maybe you can find it. The National Enquirer thing is well known, maybe you can find documentation of it, IF YOU ARE INTERESTED. I did not save links or documentation in the years I've been sifting through UFO material because I did it for my own entertainment, but I've seen plenty of things that bolstered the UFO side and now, given the wonders of the internet, you can find them, IF you want to, or you can not. It's a free country.

[corb]

I'm not rejecting good information.
Luke AFB is what ? 20km away from Phoenix ?
There is an airport near my city and the aircraft start their descents not very far from my flat, and when the weather conditions are right and it's night time they look eerie as hell. And that's planes. Even more so when the aircraft is small or a helicopter. So I can definitely see how people could mistake a conventional aircraft for something else.

And then there's the large amount of hoaxes. Specifically in the Phoenix area.
American kids have easy access to RC planes and high powered led lights, flare guns, weather balloons (you can buy one for 4$ in the US), etc - I'm surprised there aren't more sightings over cities.

[Turnbuckle]

...Pope, the publisher of the National Enquirer, and the head of the CIA...

So the Pope, the publisher of the National Enquirer, and the head of the CIA walk into a bar...

In fact, according to Wikipedia, Pope did work for the CIA in psychological warfare for the CIA and did have an interest in UFOs, even though they weren't as profitable as more lurid stories--

Bob Pratt later said that its publisher, Generoso Pope Jr, spent tens of thousands of dollars sending him all over the world chasing UFO stories, even though they sold fewer issues than celebrity stories. Pratt thought Pope was a genuine believer in UFOs, though others have suspected an intelligence connection. Pope spent a year being trained in psychological operations by the CIA in 1951, the year before he bought the Enquirer. He was also a close friend of Nixon's Defense Secretary, Melvin Laird.

This is from Mirage Men by Mark Pilkington. I haven't read it, but from the reviews it apparently attempts to portray the UFO phenomenon as part of a government disinformation program. Now while conspiracy theories can occasionally have some truth in them, he goes off the deep end while trying to explain Brazilian sightings. In fact, since there are sightings all over the world, government conspiracy theories don't work at all. You might as well believe that Men in Black is based on a true story.

Edited by Turnbuckle, 15 October 2012 - 11:33 AM.

[fogisa]

Well, I was wondering if someone might have some kind of believable explanation for the Phoenix Lights. It was a silent, V shaped craft, described by many as the size of a football field, that I think took hours to fly over Phoenix that was seen by over 10,000 people including the Mayor and Vice Mayor of Phoenix. Pretty hard to confuse that with a weather balloon or LED light from the dollar store or even a jet or 10 jets. There's more to the story but I agree with Luminosity about people seem adhered to their beliefs, but that may be putting words in her mouth. I no longer waste energy trying to convince people to have an open mind, willing to entertain possibilities. Sometimes it does seem like two extremes, some Need to believe and others Need Not to, as if they would lose hope or their footing if they had to entertain a different position. Just like religion, i guess, same old slime mold. And of course there are people that have had experiences and you can't ask them to discount what they've experienced, you can ask them to consider other possibilities. I haven't been following the UFO stuff lately but does any body know anything about Steven Greer?

[churchill]

Well, I was wondering if someone might have some kind of believable explanation for the Phoenix Lights. It was a silent, V shaped craft, described by many as the size of a football field, that I think took hours to fly over Phoenix that was seen by over 10,000 people including the Mayor and Vice Mayor of Phoenix. Pretty hard to confuse that with a weather balloon or LED light from the dollar store or even a jet or 10 jets. There's more to the story but I agree with Luminosity about people seem adhered to their beliefs, but that may be putting words in her mouth. I no longer waste energy trying to convince people to have an open mind, willing to entertain possibilities. Sometimes it does seem like two extremes, some Need to believe and others Need Not to, as if they would lose hope or their footing if they had to entertain a different position. Just like religion, i guess, same old slime mold. And of course there are people that have had experiences and you can't ask them to discount what they've experienced, you can ask them to consider other possibilities. I haven't been following the UFO stuff lately but does any body know anything about Steven Greer?

Luminosity is not at all open minded about this issue. Being open minded is being receptive to new and different ideas or the opinions of others. Simply holding a view that most of humanity disagrees with does not make you open minded. Being open minded is to be open to the possibility that you can be wrong. This is not Luminosity's position at all. He/She has flat out said it does not matter what evidence is produced or what arguments are put forward his/her position will not change, on this issue his/her mind is closed.