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Intelligent Design and Science – In or Out?

id debate intelligent design is id science god and sience creationism neutral id position

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#301 david ellis

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 04:04 AM

david ellis: I object to calling science intelligent design. Intelligent design is a carefully chosen label that implies a designer. When we finally understand DNA code, maybe there will be a message in our DNA from the designer, or possibly patent number. But until then, we should forget about patent holders.


shadowhawk 1: What is the basis of your objection? Many fields of science (if not all) are called by their field of study. I wouldn’t call ID science anymore than I would call Biology Science. Both are a proper field of scientific study which is what this thread has been about. See ‘What is an intelligent Code?” They have written messages in DNA code by the way


I thought my suggestion was clear. Wait until we understand DNA and know all the codes. Then we can look for the patent number and if nobody comes to claim their patent rights and if we didn't find any magic and miracles we will know for sure that there wasn't an intelligent designer. If the patent holder comes, or there is magic and miracles, you were right. To be a science, there has to be a testable hypothesis. And my suggestion is a testable hypothesis.

david ellis: The task before us is to understand DNA.


shadowhawk 2:Not the subject of this thread and what follows isn’t either. Please read what we have been discussing these last several months. This thread is not about DNA. See another thread which is currently being discussed on what codes are. No use repeating myself over and over.


I knew about your thoughts that intelligent design can be science, I think it never can. I came up with a testable hypothesis. I think the only one in ten pages. I thought you might like it, a chance to prove intelligent design is true.

david ellis: Speculating about a designer and intelligent design(no caps required) adds little value to science. And all of the names science needs have been found and will continue to be found as needed to understand DNA.


shadowhawk 4:Unless there is a designer which if there is it is of great value to science despite your pronouncement. All the names have been found? Did you prove this by science? :)


I didn't say "all the names "have been found" , I said that "will continue to be found as needed". That means I don't think we will find things that we can not understand.

#302 shadowhawk

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 12:41 AM

david ellis: I thought my suggestion was clear. Wait until we understand DNA and know all the codes. Then we can look for the patent number and if nobody comes to claim their patent rights and if we didn't find any magic and miracles we will know for sure that there wasn't an intelligent designer. If the patent holder comes, or there is magic and miracles, you were right. To be a science, there has to be a testable hypothesis. And my suggestion is a testable hypothesis.


Your conclusion would not be warranted from the evidence you have presented and you have offered no test. Most codes have no patent number. Does the lack of one prove no intelligent design? A testable hypothesis is not the sole determiner of what is science. Show me a testable hypothesis that science Is the only way to discover truth, or that a code has to have a patent number to be intelligent? Haha

david ellis: I knew about your thoughts that intelligent design can be science, I think it never can. I came up with a testable hypothesis. I think the only one in ten pages. I thought you might like it, a chance to prove intelligent design is true.


What you “think,” matters not. You did not come up with a testable hypothesis. You are kidding of course. I am not a scientist and it has never been my pui8rpose to prove ID. As with any scientific theory ID is open to scientific challenge. As I have argued many times before, “Science is a process, not a position.” It has its assumptions and Limitations. For example, many discoveries in Science are not testable or repeatable but that does not keep them from being the subject of science. To expect the DNA code to have a patent or someone claiming authorship, such as you have done, is xxxxxx. I won’t say it. Needless to say no scientist expects that.

david ellis: I didn't say "all the names "have been found" , I said that "will continue to be found as needed". That means I don't think we will find things that we can not understand.


Great! Someone who understands. Why is there something rather than nothing? Why is there a DNA code? Did it come about by pure chance? Explain ho your observations deal with the below DNA data.

http://www.longecity...de/#entry567892

#303 shadowhawk

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 05:40 PM

ATHEIST TAKES ON EVOLUTION



#304 shadowhawk

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 02:10 AM

ID case:



#305 Elus

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 06:33 AM

ID case:


I knew there was a name for your debating style, shadowhawk:

"The Gish Gallop, named after creationist Duane Gish, is the debating technique of drowning the opponent in such a torrent of half-truths, lies, and straw-man arguments that the opponent cannot possibly answer every falsehood in real time."

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Gish_Gallop

#306 shadowhawk

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 02:00 AM

ID case:


I knew there was a name for your debating style, shadowhawk:

"The Gish Gallop, named after creationist Duane Gish, is the debating technique of drowning the opponent in such a torrent of half-truths, lies, and straw-man arguments that the opponent cannot possibly answer every falsehood in real time."

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Gish_Gallop

Nonsense, and your style is.... :)

#307 NeuroGuy

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 06:10 PM

For a balanced view, it would be prudent to check out the work of Thomas Nagel, an atheist philosopher of mind at New York University. In Mind and Cosmos: Why the Neo-Darwinian Conception of Nature Is Almost Certainly False, Nagel defends a lot of points that are shared with Intelligent Design proponents, and he is elsewhere noted for claiming that the Intelligent Design hypothesis should be taken more seriously than it has been. That defense is certainly worth noting, considering that it comes from an atheist that was educated at both Oxford and Harvard and is fairly reputable. A review of Nagel's work by renowned philosopher of religion Alvin Plantiga can be found here.

Edited by NeuroGuy, 13 June 2013 - 06:17 PM.

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#308 noopept-user-123

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 08:11 PM

Is this relevant:

#309 IronLife

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 08:40 PM

Intelligent Design is deeply flawed in many ways. A more sound, academic view is theistic evolution which has been championed by men such as Francis Collins, the Director of the Human Genome Project and Kenneth Miller, a biology professor at Brown.

The latter's book, "Finding Darwin's God," is one of the finest on the matter in its critique of ID and materialism.
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#310 johnross47

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 08:33 PM

http://opinionator.b...type=blogs&_r=0

THE STONE AUGUST 18, 2013, 9:00 PM 837 Comments
The Core of ‘Mind and Cosmos’
By THOMAS NAGEL




Posted Image
The Stone is a forum for contemporary philosophers and other thinkers on issues both timely and timeless.


Tags:

Evolution (Biology),Philosophy, Science and Technology



This is a brief statement of positions defended more fully in my book “Mind and Cosmos: Why the Materialist Neo-Darwinian Conception of Nature Is Almost Certainly False,” which was published by Oxford University Press last year. Since then the book has attracted a good deal of critical attention, which is not surprising, given the entrenchment of the world view that it attacks. It seemed useful to offer a short summary of the central argument.
The scientific revolution of the 17th century, which has given rise to such extraordinary progress in the understanding of nature, depended on a crucial limiting step at the start: It depended on subtracting from the physical world as an object of study everything mental – consciousness, meaning, intention or purpose. The physical sciences as they have developed since then describe, with the aid of mathematics, the elements of which the material universe is composed, and the laws governing their behavior in space and time.
We ourselves, as physical organisms, are part of that universe, composed of the same basic elements as everything else, and recent advances in molecular biology have greatly increased our understanding of the physical and chemical basis of life. Since our mental lives evidently depend on our existence as physical organisms, especially on the functioning of our central nervous systems, it seems natural to think that the physical sciences can in principle provide the basis for an explanation of the mental aspects of reality as well — that physics can aspire finally to be a theory of everything.
However, I believe this possibility is ruled out by the conditions that have defined the physical sciences from the beginning. The physical sciences can describe organisms like ourselves as parts of the objective spatio-temporal order – our structure and behavior in space and time – but they cannot describe the subjective experiences of such organisms or how the world appears to their different particular points of view. There can be a purely physical description of the neurophysiological processes that give rise to an experience, and also of the physical behavior that is typically associated with it, but such a description, however complete, will leave out the subjective essence of the experience – how it is from the point of view of its subject — without which it would not be a conscious experience at all.
So the physical sciences, in spite of their extraordinary success in their own domain, necessarily leave an important aspect of nature unexplained. Further, since the mental arises through the development of animal organisms, the nature of those organisms cannot be fully understood through the physical sciences alone. Finally, since the long process of biological evolution is responsible for the existence of conscious organisms, and since a purely physical process cannot explain their existence, it follows that biological evolution must be more than just a physical process, and the theory of evolution, if it is to explain the existence of conscious life, must become more than just a physical theory.
This means that the scientific outlook, if it aspires to a more complete understanding of nature, must expand to include theories capable of explaining the appearance in the universe of mental phenomena and the subjective points of view in which they occur – theories of a different type from any we have seen so far.
There are two ways of resisting this conclusion, each of which has two versions. The first way is to deny that the mental is an irreducible aspect of reality, either (a) by holding that the mental can be identified with some aspect of the physical, such as patterns of behavior or patterns of neural activity, or (b) by denying that the mental is part of reality at all, being some kind of illusion (but then, illusion to whom?). The second way is to deny that the mental requires a scientific explanation through some new conception of the natural order, because either © we can regard it as a mere fluke or accident, an unexplained extra property of certain physical organisms – or else (d) we can believe that it has an explanation, but one that belongs not to science but to theology, in other words that mind has been added to the physical world in the course of evolution by divine intervention.


RELATED

More From The Stone

Read previous contributions to this series.
All four of these positions have their adherents. I believe the wide popularity among philosophers and scientists of (a), the outlook of psychophysical reductionism, is due not only to the great prestige of the physical sciences but to the feeling that this is the best defense against the dreaded (d), the theistic interventionist outlook. But someone who finds (a) and (b) self-evidently false and © completely implausible need not accept (d), because a scientific understanding of nature need not be limited to a physical theory of the objective spatio-temporal order. It makes sense to seek an expanded form of understanding that includes the mental but that is still scientific — i.e. still a theory of the immanent order of nature.
That seems to me the most likely solution. Even though the theistic outlook, in some versions, is consistent with the available scientific evidence, I don’t believe it, and am drawn instead to a naturalistic, though non-materialist, alternative. Mind, I suspect, is not an inexplicable accident or a divine and anomalous gift but a basic aspect of nature that we will not understand until we transcend the built-in limits of contemporary scientific orthodoxy. I would add that even some theists might find this acceptable; since they could maintain that God is ultimately responsible for such an expanded natural order, as they believe he is for the laws of physics.

Posted Image
Thomas Nagel is University Professor in the Department of Philosophy and the School of Law at New York University. He is the author of “Mortal Questions,” “The View from Nowhere,” “The Last Word” and other books.



I note that he is a professor in the school of law, not science.

Edited by johnross47, 17 February 2014 - 08:36 PM.


#311 johnross47

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 04:53 PM

"The physical sciences can describe organisms like ourselves as parts of the objective spatio-temporal order – our structure and behavior in space and time – but they cannot describe the subjective experiences of such organisms or how the world appears to their different particular points of view. There can be a purely physical description of the neurophysiological processes that give rise to an experience, and also of the physical behavior that is typically associated with it, but such a description, however complete, will leave out the subjective essence of the experience – how it is from the point of view of its subject — without which it would not be a conscious experience at all.
So the physical sciences, in spite of their extraordinary success in their own domain, necessarily leave an important aspect of nature unexplained. Further, since the mental arises through the development of animal organisms, the nature of those organisms cannot be fully understood through the physical sciences alone. Finally, since the long process of biological evolution is responsible for the existence of conscious organisms, and since a purely physical process cannot explain their existence, it follows that biological evolution must be more than just a physical process, and the theory of evolution, if it is to explain the existence of conscious life, must become more than just a physical theory"
I'm tempted just to say, "So what?" Science can't explain this yet, but religion probably never will. Science is exploring the problem, religion is just making things up, along the lines of, "If we don't know the answer it must be god." This where the main flaw in Nagel's argument lies; he misses out the word, yet. How many times have "authorities" boldly claimed that we will never know x or y or z and been wrong quite soon afterwards?


#312 shadowhawk

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 02:27 AM

The above quotes do not negate Intelligent design at all.

#313 johnross47

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 06:59 AM

The above quotes do not negate Intelligent design at all.


I didn't say they did. I put up the quote as a public service because the book was referred to but without much real explanation of the argument presented.

#314 shadowhawk

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 01:53 AM

http://www.longecity...300#entry593490

I agree with much of Thomas Nagel. He is great and quoted by ID proponents all the time.

#315 shadowhawk

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 02:14 AM

MIND AND COSMOS
The modern materialist approach to life has conspicuously failed to explain such central mind-related features of our world as consciousness, intentionality, meaning, and value. This failure to account for something so integral to nature as mind, argues philosopher Thomas Nagel, is a major problem, threatening to unravel the entire naturalistic world picture, extending to biology, evolutionary theory, and cosmology.

Since minds are features of biological systems that have developed through evolution, the standard materialist version of evolutionary biology is fundamentally incomplete. And the cosmological history that led to the origin of life and the coming into existence of the conditions for evolution cannot be a merely materialist history, either. An adequate conception of nature would have to explain the appearance in the universe of materially irreducible conscious minds, as such.

Nagel's skepticism is not based on religious belief or on a belief in any definite alternative. In Mind and Cosmos, he does suggest that if the materialist account is wrong, then principles of a different kind may also be at work in the history of nature, principles of the growth of order that are in their logical form teleological rather than mechanistic.

In spite of the great achievements of the physical sciences, reductive materialism is a world view ripe for displacement. Nagel shows that to recognize its limits is the first step in looking for alternatives, or at least in being open to their possibility.

#316 johnross47

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 08:27 AM

Wow! A coherently written post! But actually it is just a direct paste of the Amazon puff for the book but without attribution. Nagel may be quoted by creationists/intelligent designers, but he explicitly rejects their position and is explicitly atheist. Selective and partial quotation can be used to support all sorts of opinions that are not supported by the original author.

#317 shadowhawk

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 08:23 PM

Wow! A coherently written post! But actually it is just a direct paste of the Amazon puff for the book but without attribution. Nagel may be quoted by creationists/intelligent designers, but he explicitly rejects their position and is explicitly atheist. Selective and partial quotation can be used to support all sorts of opinions that are not supported by the original author.

Yes, but I have read the book and it is in my library. It is often quoted in Evolution, news and views. Google it. Some ID proponents are agnostics and not theists..

Bu the way, the sections you cut and pasted are great points for once. :)

#318 shadowhawk

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 03:30 AM

http://www.youtube.c...zPK7NiF8Kk#t=52

#319 Duchykins

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 10:47 PM

Intelligent Design serves no purpose to anyone. And I differentiate between theistic evolution and ID. Kenneth Miller once denied being a 'theistic evolutionist' because it is like saying a scientist who believes in a god is a 'theistic gravitationist' which is very silly. I sympathize with his feelings on this. Ken knows the modern evolutionary synthesis is the best explanation for the diversity of life - it is true - and he believes in a god, therefore he believes his god is responsible for creating the mechanism of evolution.

That is the best and only rational approach a theist can have to scientific issues that others may deem religiously controversial.

Now as for Intelligent Design and the professional liars who created it: it barely qualifies as a scientific hypothesis. There is nothing scientifically useful about ID. And it cannot even be considered an 'alternate theory' to the modern synthesis because it does not perform the functions that are required of scientific theories, ID cannot replace the modern synthesis because it doesn't do what the modern synthesis does.

ID does not explain the diversity of life via any mechanism that differs from the modern evolutionary synthesis; it doesn't even attempt to. It MUST do this in order to be able to be able to rival the modern synthesis as an alternative theory, let alone actually supplant it. ID has no explanatory power whatsoever but that which it borrows from the modern synthesis. ID cannot be used to build models. ID cannot be used to extrapolate reasonably accurate predictions. ID cannot be used in medical science or any branch of the biological disciplines. The overwhelming bulk of ID literature is composed of ridiculous straw men against the modern synthesis - rather than arguments and evidence supporting the vague hypothesis of ID itself.


Intelligent Design is 99% anti-evolution argument, 1% teleological argument. It is useless in any scientific application - in part because ID proponents want to alter scientific standards so that ID could be considered scientific - in part because anti-evolution arguments are not pro-ID arguments, they offer no evidence supporting ID.


Ask any ID proponent, "how does ID explain the diversity of life?" "how is ID different from evolutionary theory, in order to be considered an alternative scientific theory?" - these are important questions rarely asked, and watch the IDiot sputter and fumble over answers, revealing the intellectual bankruptcy of ID propaganda. This also forces people to look at what the synthesis is and what it does, what it's used for, which can helpful on occasion because I have never personally seen a (Christian, typically) ID supporter make an argument that actually addresses evolution, but rather the idea of 'evolution' that exists in their heads.

Edited by Duchykins, 22 February 2014 - 10:57 PM.


#320 Duchykins

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 11:00 PM

The topic is whether or not ID can be included in Science or not. Our discussion here is off topic. I have argued it is a proper subject for discussion and inclusion in Science, not rather DNA posses the characteristics of a code or not. This is the subject and you have given no compelling reason why it shouldn’t be included. But I will digress off subject

DAMABO: you said nothing about atoms no... you asked me to name a code other than DNA that does not come from a mind.
hence the thing about atoms. Yes the example of code that doesn't come from a mind can be atoms, since your criterion for a code is representing something else, 'instructing'. Where do you draw the line for what is and what is not instructing?


You are confusing laws of physics with code. Are you saying they are both the same? While the laws of nature are in themselves amazing and some have argued they point to God. http://webcache.goog..._Laws_draft.pdf
Laws are distinctly not physical. The paper I cite mentions God but it is not critical to ID as I have argued earlier in this thread. Lets get sidetracked here on the identity of the designer. Apparently you have not read my discussion on this point earlier.

Codes on the other hand almost always have as one characteristic, their origin their organization in intelligence. It, unlike the laws that govern the behavior of atoms, function like a digital code. http://www.amazon.co...n/dp/0061472794


Let me again repeat how you identify a code.
“From a programer, Perry Marshall.

“The following specification defines the criteria for identifying a naturally occurring code:

1. Humans can design the experiment, with all manner of state-of-the-art laboratory equipment, ideal conditions etc. They just can’t cheat: the submitted system cannot be pre-programmed with any form of code whatsoever.

2. Since the origin of DNA is unknown, the submitted system cannot be a direct derivative of DNA or produced by a living organism. Bee waggles, dogs barking, RNA strands and mating calls of birds don’t count. Such codes are products of animal intelligence, genetically hard-coded and/or instinctual.

3. The origin of the submitted system must be documented such that its process of origin can be observed in nature and/or duplicated in a real-world laboratory according to the scientific method.

4. The submitted system must be digital, not analog.

5. The submitted system must have the three integral components of communication functioning together: encoder, code, decoder.

6. The message passed between encoder and decoder must be a sequence of symbols from a finite alphabet.

7. A symbol is a group of k bits considered as a unit. We refer to this unit as a message symbol mi (i=1, 2, …. M) from a finite symbol set or alphabet. The size of the alphabet M is M = 2^k where k is the number of bits in the symbol. For a binary symbol, k = 1, M = 2. For a quaternary symbol in DNA, k = 2, M = 4.

8. A character is a group of n symbols considered as a unit. We refer to this unit as a message character ci (i=1, 2, …. C) from a finite word set or vocabulary. The maximum size of the character set C is C = M^n. For a standard computer byte, M = 2, n = 8, C=256. For a triplet group of quaternary symbols in DNA, M = 4, n = 3, C=64.

9. The submitted system must be labeled with values of both encoding table and decoding table filled out.

10. For the submitted system, it must be possible to objectively determine whether encoding and decoding have been carried out correctly. For example when you press the “A” key on the keyboard, a letter “A” is supposed to appear on the screen and there is an observable correspondence between the two. In defining biological gender, a combination of X and Y chromosomes should correspond to male, while XX should correspond to female. For any given system, a procedure should exist for determining whether input correctly corresponds to output.

(Above definitions adapted from Digital Communications: Fundamentals and Applications by Bernard Sklar, page 13, Prentice Hall, 2nd edition, 2001)”

I won’t repeat this again. An atom has no code.

DAMABO: I am not putting the finger on you for anthropomorphizing, I am mainly putting the finger on the interpretation of anthropomorphic terms we all use. and no these terms are not 'bad'. the supposed inferences that can be made from them are what is problematic.


And by using letters and words such as the word “rocks,” does not mean rocks do not exist nor have we committed some anthromorphic fallacy. There is a genetic code.


DAMABO: Just because you can interpret DNA as being similar to what we write in computers or to how we message each other doesn't mean it fundamentally is. the concept of intelligence too is problematic - again not saying this term should be banned or something! - but the problem is that intelligence is very relative. where do you draw the line? From my conversations with you, you seem to believe in two types of matter. Intelligent matter and non-intelligent matter. which would be a sudden transition from intelligent to non-intelligent. What basis do you have for this? none, I believe. Hence, the atoms come in again. We can just as well interpret atoms instructing each other and it would be just as correct since it can be too seen as a way of communication and letters that represent something! so yes, atomary reactions can just as well be interpreted as codes.


Codes we write in, come from our brains which are created by DNA and RNA instructing proteins how to behave. Intelligence and codes go hand in hand. Don’t you know the difference between a nail clipping and intelligence? How about a toe nail clipping and a brain? Can you tell a difference? “None.”

Atoms and cells operate using laws and codes. They are not the same.

DAMABO: by the way, these definitions of instructions are quite handy. in these definitions (except for the one about judges) emphasis is on transmission of information. As said, this transmission can be easily be done on atomic scales, and yes information transmission is easily possible on quantum scale. So then, this relates to my thesis that 'all can be coded into information' or something like that- we had a debate a while ago about, where you said that 'information cannot come from mindless matter' or something alike. well, clearly it can, information is omnipresent- everything can be encoded into bits!
So yes, instructions (bits of information) can be transmitted from one system to another even on the lowest scales.


“Easily be done!” Tell me how It is done. Tell me how information in the form of a code comes from atoms.

Show an example of Information CODE that doesn’t come from a mind. All you need is one.”



This is an argument from ignorance and a misrepresentation of genetic 'information'.

What is Intelligent Design?

#321 shadowhawk

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 02:23 AM

Duchkyins: "This is an argument from ignorance and a misrepresentation of genetic 'information"

Argument by assertion. No argument at all.

#322 shadowhawk

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 02:28 AM

Deff. of ID. Posted before

http://www.intellige...rg/whatisid.php

#323 shadowhawk

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 02:59 AM

Study: 2 Million U.S. Scientists Identify As Evangelical
http://www.christian...vangelical.html
This does not Include non Evangelical Christians.

“The media often portrays scientists and Christians as incapable of peaceful coexistence. But results from a recent survey suggest the two are not as incompatible as one might think. In fact, 2 million out of nearly 12 million scientists are evangelical Christians. If you were to bring all the evangelical scientists together, they could populate the city of Houston, Texas.

Sociologist Elaine Howard Ecklund and her colleagues at Rice University and the American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS) reported results from the largest study of American views on science and religion at the association's annual conference in Chicago on Sunday, February 16. More than 10,000 people, including 574 self-identified as scientists, responded to the 75-question survey. Among the scientists, 17 percent said the term "evangelical" describes them "somewhat" or "very well," compared to 23 percent of all respondents.”

#324 Duchykins

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 03:01 AM

Deff. of ID. Posted before

http://www.intellige...rg/whatisid.php



I'm acutely aware of the Discovery Institute's definition of ID. I was just checking to see if you had a different definition since I have seen that before and would need to construct my arguments accordingly.

Therefore, going with their definition of ID, I don't need to alter anything I previously stated about ID - it all applies. Including my point that you will always find disinformation and straw men about the modern synthesis in anti-evolution articles. Most importantly, the lie that natural selection is not deterministic, and the lie that irreducible complexity is evidence against the modern synthesis - because by any of the definitions that have been given for "irreducible complexity" (the definition has been changed a few times after being exposed as pseudoscientific bullshit), irreducibly complex systems can and DO occur naturally via evolutionary mechanisms.

And to reiterate, the definition of ID has no scientific usefulness since it is too vague. Just like the word "kind" that creationists like to employ.

The definition of ID also disqualifies it as a rival theory to the modern synthesis because it attempts to perform a different function - the modern synthesis attempts an explanation of the diversity of life, what the mechanisms are, why are there so many different organisms, how did they get to be that way, etc. ID DOES NOT DO THIS AND DOES NOT EVEN TRY. ID points to certain natural phenomena, and attempts to show that there is an intelligence, a sentient being, behind it. With vague nonscientific language, insinuation and bad logic, this isn't even a scientific hypothesis that can be put to the test.

ID therefore offers no competition for the modern synthesis since they serve two different purposes.

#325 shadowhawk

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Posted 25 February 2014 - 01:14 AM

Deff. of ID. Posted before

http://www.intellige...rg/whatisid.php



I'm acutely aware of the Discovery Institute's definition of ID. I was just checking to see if you had a different definition since I have seen that before and would need to construct my arguments accordingly.

Therefore, going with their definition of ID, I don't need to alter anything I previously stated about ID - it all applies. Including my point that you will always find disinformation and straw men about the modern synthesis in anti-evolution articles. Most importantly, the lie that natural selection is not deterministic, and the lie that irreducible complexity is evidence against the modern synthesis - because by any of the definitions that have been given for "irreducible complexity" (the definition has been changed a few times after being exposed as pseudoscientific bullshit), irreducibly complex systems can and DO occur naturally via evolutionary mechanisms.

And to reiterate, the definition of ID has no scientific usefulness since it is too vague. Just like the word "kind" that creationists like to employ.

The definition of ID also disqualifies it as a rival theory to the modern synthesis because it attempts to perform a different function - the modern synthesis attempts an explanation of the diversity of life, what the mechanisms are, why are there so many different organisms, how did they get to be that way, etc. ID DOES NOT DO THIS AND DOES NOT EVEN TRY. ID points to certain natural phenomena, and attempts to show that there is an intelligence, a sentient being, behind it. With vague nonscientific language, insinuation and bad logic, this isn't even a scientific hypothesis that can be put to the test.

ID therefore offers no competition for the modern synthesis since they serve two different purposes.

Argument by declaration. Not one bit of evidence. So you believe...ok. Nice testimony. No actual content.

#326 Duchykins

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Posted 25 February 2014 - 04:57 PM

Deff. of ID. Posted before

http://www.intellige...rg/whatisid.php



I'm acutely aware of the Discovery Institute's definition of ID. I was just checking to see if you had a different definition since I have seen that before and would need to construct my arguments accordingly.

Therefore, going with their definition of ID, I don't need to alter anything I previously stated about ID - it all applies. Including my point that you will always find disinformation and straw men about the modern synthesis in anti-evolution articles. Most importantly, the lie that natural selection is not deterministic, and the lie that irreducible complexity is evidence against the modern synthesis - because by any of the definitions that have been given for "irreducible complexity" (the definition has been changed a few times after being exposed as pseudoscientific bullshit), irreducibly complex systems can and DO occur naturally via evolutionary mechanisms.

And to reiterate, the definition of ID has no scientific usefulness since it is too vague. Just like the word "kind" that creationists like to employ.

The definition of ID also disqualifies it as a rival theory to the modern synthesis because it attempts to perform a different function - the modern synthesis attempts an explanation of the diversity of life, what the mechanisms are, why are there so many different organisms, how did they get to be that way, etc. ID DOES NOT DO THIS AND DOES NOT EVEN TRY. ID points to certain natural phenomena, and attempts to show that there is an intelligence, a sentient being, behind it. With vague nonscientific language, insinuation and bad logic, this isn't even a scientific hypothesis that can be put to the test.

ID therefore offers no competition for the modern synthesis since they serve two different purposes.

Argument by declaration. Not one bit of evidence. So you believe...ok. Nice testimony. No actual content.


Aw, you mad? LOL

Everything I said is verifiable, and you know it and that is why you have left whole sections unacknowledged because you can't defend against it without misrepresenting something.

A couple of PROFESSIONAL LIARS, on two separate occasions, one of whom called himself an "intern", from the DISCOVERY INSTITUTE also gave me rather sudden silence when I asked them how ID explained the diversity of life, after being so golly chatty about how much of a valid scientific alternative ID is to the modern synthesis. Suddenly he had to go after telling me he had a full hour to preach Intelligent Design to me. Baahahahaa! And Casey Luskin LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLOLOL about four or five years ago, I busted him cold in a deliberate lie, then he suddenly had a meeting he had to go to and we would talk later, but unsurprisingly he never got back to me.

You people are an endless source of laughs and have been for some ten years of my life. Keep up the good work!

Edited by Duchykins, 25 February 2014 - 05:00 PM.


#327 shadowhawk

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Posted 25 February 2014 - 10:53 PM

Duchykins: Aw, you mad? LOL

Everything I said is verifiable, and you know it and that is why you have left whole sections unacknowledged because you can't defend against it without misrepresenting something. SH give me an example. Lots of things have been said. You just pop off with these things with no verification or evidence.

A couple of PROFESSIONAL LIARS, on two separate occasions, one of whom called himself an "intern", from the DISCOVERY INSTITUTE also gave me rather sudden silence when I asked them how ID explained the diversity of life, {SH: Oh good, someone who can explain life and its diversity. Lets hear it.) after being so golly chatty about how much of a valid scientific alternative ID is to the modern synthesis. Suddenly he had to go after telling me he had a full hour to preach Intelligent Design to me. Baahahahaa! And Casey Luskin LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLOLOL about four or five years ago, I busted him cold in a deliberate lie, then he suddenly had a meeting he had to go to and we would talk later, but unsurprisingly he never got back to me.

You people are an endless source of laughs and have been for some ten years of my life. Keep up the good work!


The only thing this response contains are logical fallacies and name calling. You haven’t explained life or diversity of life. “You people,” sounds like a bigot talking. Perhaps the IDers did have to go in reality but certainly I wasn’t part of it. No one I know of has run at your “meat.” We only have your side of the story and that is not enough to convene a reasonable person. Meanwhile, laugh away,(ten years no less) that is all you have here.. Below is part of the reasons some feel ID is science. (Our topic) Finally, I am not in any way mad at you. I wish you well. :)






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#328 johnross47

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 07:42 AM

Nice posts Duchykins, you've obviously hit SH where his logic can't go. If you score points he always resorts to shouting, "logical fallacy," but never explains what it is supposed to be. It may be an appeal to his imagined authority as a teacher of logic.

#329 shadowhawk

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 09:37 PM

Nice posts Duchykins, you've obviously hit SH where his logic can't go. If you score points he always resorts to shouting, "logical fallacy," but never explains what it is supposed to be. It may be an appeal to his imagined authority as a teacher of logic.

There is nothing logical about this. No content, ad hominem as usual. You have not IDed what you are talking about.
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#330 johnross47

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Posted 01 March 2014 - 03:04 PM

Nice posts Duchykins, you've obviously hit SH where his logic can't go. If you score points he always resorts to shouting, "logical fallacy," but never explains what it is supposed to be. It may be an appeal to his imagined authority as a teacher of logic.

There is nothing logical about this. No content, ad hominem as usual. You have not IDed what you are talking about.


What proportion of readers will have trouble telling which posts I was referring to? (None! Not even you.) You may not like the manner of my writing but it does address a real relevant issue and is therefore not Ad. Hom.





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