Well, you know I don't agree on some of those points.Creationists are so far gone that they don't even realize how much religion they reveal in arguments they think are scientific and (lol) educated.Rofl, what a troll
Is this topic about ID or evolution? Why is it important that he takes a theory and you take one? Why cant he argue without a theory of his own?
Youre just a retard who doesnt realize his own compulsion to troll and argue coming from your insecurities. You covered yourself in provocative and completely deluded viewpoints in order to walk around decorated in issues to debate over since you cant really talk about anything real. Engaging people with these issues and a blitzkrieg amount of fake scientists, distorted logic and argumentation makes you feel secure enough. You have a ready technique for anyway a discussuion goes proving youve been at this for a while. Youve succesfully fooled yourself into thinking you believe in all these things, but unfortunately you forgot that you only adopted them to create a persona, to be different, to be something, to exist. This persona is a false deluded shadow of a person requiring conistant validation of its armour and defenses due to fear of ceasing to exist. Youre destined to compulsively seek validation of your existance through interaction and controversy seeking with your false self, armed with a delusion of thinking clear but in fact causing a meaningless life of eternal self defeat and blindness to it. Your parents neglect condemned you to a lifetime of trying to prove that your false persona exists in a way better than others(with better opinions) because this takes away the focus of actually knowing what you are and that your true persona doesnt exist at all in reality but only locked within phantasie imagining new and improved beleifs and arguments to lay upon people and hide behind.
Here's a fine example, this garbage about 'increasing complexity'. This is not a scientific concept, it's a refined version of the old ideas about a heirarchical ladder of life and the great chain of being - with humans above all other mortal creatures in biological superiority and complexity. It's also founded on the popular but erroneous belief that evolution is about simpler organisms becoming more 'complex' with time. This also indirectly endorses the belief that there such a thing as biological 'devolution'. These are the same people who think eyeless cave fish represent a step 'backward' either in evolution or 'complexity'. When you hear people arguing in ways that rely on these ideas, it's a clue for you to know that they don't really know what the hell they're talking about.
The great chain of being is a religious concept, and was extremely influential with ancient scholars who were trying to classify species. They developed a ladder of life, something that was used for centuries before we learned that things aren't that simple. But while the idea is long abandonded in science, it still flourishes in the worldviews of creationists, and it remains there because the general concept is written all over their religious literature. They'll never alter it because that would threaten their beliefs about divine creation.
Not sure if you maybe checked out the link I posted a post or two back, I researched some new avenues to further my understanding. The link is about cybernetics and neurology combined very much explains that complexity of behaviour is increased not only by simply creating a more elaborate mechanism but by creating "traverses" - explained in the link. A higher level and lower level mechanism working each at its on level of knowledge, one being a more general version of the other as in adapting rules to learning rules. This creates enormous adaptability jumps compared to a more flat system. This is again in line with my view of the nervous system evolving in several jumps - traverses, each creating a sudden explosion of adaptability and thus new rich life. I do hope you will not offend me by calling my reasoning creationist as the link I posted is a cybernetics theory from a Max Planck institute and has nothing to do with creations as neither of my arguments do.
Current evolutionary does fail to account for some facts and I do think I have some answers which have nothing to do with creationism but are in fact hard core evolution proof showing both life and evolution as an extension of normal physics behaviour. The model I posted in the few posts up is the true physical-cybernetical model of life. And it predicts jumps and a major jump in life itself evolving to support a 2nd order version of life.
So, Id in fact much rather discuss that than this crap. It seems meaningful, while this seems like a waste of time on an insecure internet troll...
Well actually some of that sounds interesting.. And no I wouldn't call it creationist because you didn't couch it in a misrepresentation of evolution. It's true that the current paradigm of evolution is incomplete and that is true of every single scientific theory in existence. It's why we have debates about gradualism vs punctuated equilibria, it's why we have debates about how to classify 'transitional' species, etc. And they're much more useful than arguing with creationists and their absolutely immovable position.
Well to cut it short, I differ a bit from the link I posted. Cybernetics only seems to account for 2-3 traverses of which they consider evolution(selection) to be the first or zeroth. This is because they look at an individual as a cybernetic creature.
I look from a higher perspective. I consider the species to be a loosely bound cybernetic creature with a kind of collective mind (they all know what it takes to be selected for reproduction). If you analyse the collective of persisting self-replicating behaviour(gene pool) as single cybernetic phenomena you can understand that this single cybernetic phenomena of life adapts (changes the nature of all body building behaviour within the gene pool via selection) via natural select, then sexual selection as a second order version of natural selection. The species try to predict and thus speed up and alter natural selection via this 2nd order evolution. The species then evolve to possess an internal model(awareness) of sexual selection to enable themselves to start making decisions to invest(social fights) into social status. Without an awareness they can not make such decisions. Social hierarchy as an internal model is again shared by the local group creating a collective "for better evolution" (better selection of persisting self replicating body building behaviour). Theres a few variants of life. Free floating life (swarms of fish) which uses sense to guide itself, keeps a position (fish calculate their position in the swarm dynamically, stemming from assessing external body status and ability I read a paper on this and also seen a simulator of this). Free floating life develops elaborate migration-reproduction schemes that perform selection. Territory bound life, taking advantage of territory shows weak sexual selection, requires more evolved signalling (across territory) for reproductions. This causes them to evolve into more "survival" machines than breeding-social machines. Territorial life thus spawns more immortality-like (plants are also infact the extreme version of territorial life with no active body control), more shell protection, hard bodies and weird adaptations.
A huge jump then happens, mammals develop a brain part for internal awareness of body-reality behaviour, meaning internal model of external object behaviour with which they can anticipate what will happen and then adapt this prediction(internal model) when it happens and difference is detected. This enables them to be aware of their own and others body behaviour and change it. Reptiles can't change their body behaviour or adapt to other.
This change of body behaviour creates a 2nd order evolution of life itself as now a new version of persisting self replicating cybernetic knowledge is created. Genes are cybernetic knowledge of body building and now theres also cybernetic knowledge of body use-experience that can also persist and self-replicate across its 1st order body building carriers.
Last jump of evolution is humans or primates (I know you have some other candidates but this doesn't challenge my point that jumps exist and are easily demonstrate able) which develop an awareness of body experience and "currently possessed mammalian body-reality knowledge". This enables humans to intentionally change their body-reality knowledge, to change their roles and invest into creating a better role, better body-reality context. This is "changing rules for learning rules". Humans adaptation of their body-reality knowledge causes them to constantly evolve and spread new knowledge "of living" and so enables humans purposefully create organisations built around such knowledge, evolving it further.
it all sums down to two forms of persisting self-replicating cybernetic knowledge,
A) body building and inbuilt instinctual control evolving later to a more elaborate instinct with an internal model of social hierarchy
B) awareness of experience of body and instinctual control and instinctual model of social hierarchy allowing modulation of it all via a pool of more general knowledge (formed by experience or being aware).
And it sums up to "organisations" which enable them. From local gene pool, local harem to local social group for A and then mammalian social group for B and then later human organisations of various types first evolving the knowledge of living and then later everything else as all is ties to being able to live better.
So, it can all be placed into a single theory that explains the transition from undead matter to life. Undead matter ORGANIZES into life. Life is an organisation of dead matter formed in such a way that it can persist and self-replicate. This is prokaryotes, the only individually evolving life. From eukaryotes existing life (cells) require "consent" to reproduce and thus can only evolve as an organisation, the "consent" mechanism is monumental. It evolves from basic communication of cells to engage sexual reproduction. Entire sociality of all species arises from this.
Edited by addx, 17 May 2014 - 10:03 AM.
