• Log in with Facebook Log in with Twitter Log In with Google      Sign In    
  • Create Account
  LongeCity
              Advocacy & Research for Unlimited Lifespans


Adverts help to support the work of this non-profit organisation. To go ad-free join as a Member.


Photo
* * * - - 4 votes

Intelligent Design and Science – In or Out?

id debate intelligent design is id science god and sience creationism neutral id position

  • Please log in to reply
1221 replies to this topic

#871 shadowhawk

  • Guest, Member
  • 4,700 posts
  • 12
  • Location:Scotts Valley, Ca.
  • NO

Posted 20 August 2014 - 11:48 PM

What have surgeons or biologists improved upon? We can make articifical limbs and some organs, but they are a far cry then better than our original. The joints and organs we are born with can last over a century if conditions are good. Are articial hips/limbs better than our biological ones? What about a heart? If you could swap yours for a artifical one, would you? We have yet to make a pancreas for diabetics, or intestines for people who have colostomy bags.

 

We dont even understand our own brains very well and have yet to make anything remotely like it. Artificial intelligence just doesn't cut it.

 

Do you think we can make Robots that are better and more capable of us? Would they have feeling and wonder?

 

I think if there was a creator, It set forth all the conditions for life, but it stops there. We are just a product of the creation of the universe. Who says God needs to be perfect? Superior perhaps but maybe whatever 'It' is, it is not omnipotent and not perfect and has no relationship with the trillions of life forms in the universe. Some believe the universe itself is God so maybe is omnipotent, but in the same way we do not have control or knowledge of the trillions of bacteria inside our own bodies, maybe God how may or may not exist on a completely different level of conciousness or dimension, may not be aware of or have control of us.

Are you saying this by faith?  No evidence needed?  Perhaps but the topic is not about God.  :)



#872 shifter

  • Guest
  • 716 posts
  • 5

Posted 21 August 2014 - 12:01 AM

Yep, I don't have a clue. I speculate. I am an agnostic but subscribe to the positive Christian values.

I have no evidence for my speculations (to which I have many) and don't care to. I have faith the creation of the universe and life itself wasn't some random purposeless fluke of chance. I like to think we have a point to existence. I could be wrong but I like my mindset anyway. No one has the answer. Not me and not the Pope. Besides, speculation and wild fanciful beginnings are more fun

#873 shadowhawk

  • Guest, Member
  • 4,700 posts
  • 12
  • Location:Scotts Valley, Ca.
  • NO

Posted 21 August 2014 - 12:30 AM

You know the answer, you know there is no answer.  :)  Is that by faith?



#874 shifter

  • Guest
  • 716 posts
  • 5

Posted 21 August 2014 - 01:30 AM

You know the answer, you know there is no answer.  :)  Is that by faith?

 

I think there is an answer, but that the answer is probably beyond the realm of understanding for mankind. Or it really could be just simple. I'm just saying I dont know what the answer is. So I can not say that I am right, or that others or right, or likewise that I am wrong or others beliefs are wrong.

 

To quote the x-files 'THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE'. Just because I don't know it, or may never know it, or everyone that has ever been and that will be alive may never know it, doesn't mean it isn't there.

 

So I have faith in that there is something, some answer, some truth or reason for being. It could be completely ridiculous or incredibly simple. At the same time I am content that I may never know what it is.

 

 

I like this to ponder the wonder of the universe.

44436_517317014955981_122221028_n.jpg



#875 serp777

  • Guest
  • 622 posts
  • 11
  • Location:who cares

Posted 21 August 2014 - 03:16 AM

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

When a painter sees a painting is it insulting to conclude a painter painted it? When an engineer sees something engineered is it insulting to think an engineer did it.??? You are insulted when a Biologist thinks an engineer may have done it! :) Let me try again.


The same stupid tired old argument. When a person sees a snowflake is it unreasonable to think it's not engineered?
I love the never ending fountain of name calling and logical fallacies. It s unreasonable to think a snowflake is engineered as it would be to think a painting was not painted. At the saim time you have not made any distinction between code and the effects of natural law.

Obviously we have evidence that the elephant painted the painting; obviously we have no evidence that the god of your religion's hearty imagination created the snowflake. We have evidence for the existence of your religion's colorful stories; we have no evidence for the truth of your religion's colorful stories beyond human imagination.

 

Well I have discussed the difference between crystals such as snow flakes and Intelligent Design.  They are not the same even if you imagine they are.  The painting itself is imagined and that says nothing about reality.  Imagination is part of reality.  By the way, the topic is not about God.

 

An none of those discussions show that your painter analogy is somehow more applicable than my snowflake analogy. Imagination is part of reality because it exists in neurons in the brain. Imagination has no effect on reality though--only reality has an effect on the imagination. Does the universe seem like a painting to you? I WOULD HOPE NOT. 

 

It has intelligence in it.does it not?  Does the universe seem as if it has no consciousness in it to you?  How does it seem so?

 

Obviously the universe has no consciousness. That's ridiculous. Just because there are intelligent things in something does not make it intelligent. That's like saying: well there are intelligent beings in a cave, therefore the cave is conscious and intelligent. What? Just because something resides in something else doesn't mean it has all teh same properties. 

 

Obviously you are in the universe and you are not conscious.  However I am.  :)  I am made up of the same elements as the cosmos but how come I am aware?

 

You are less conscious than me, seeing as how no conscious person would make that argument.  :)

 

Unconscious things are made up of the same elements as the cosmos, but how come they are not aware? They are more unconscious things than conscious things. Bad argument is bad


Edited by serp777, 21 August 2014 - 03:16 AM.


#876 shadowhawk

  • Guest, Member
  • 4,700 posts
  • 12
  • Location:Scotts Valley, Ca.
  • NO

Posted 21 August 2014 - 03:35 AM

Dualism.  The ground of the physical is the spiritual.  However this is off topic.



#877 serp777

  • Guest
  • 622 posts
  • 11
  • Location:who cares

Posted 21 August 2014 - 04:06 AM

Dualism.  The ground of the physical is the spiritual.  However this is off topic.

No evidence though



#878 DukeNukem

  • Guest
  • 2,009 posts
  • 145
  • Location:Dallas, Texas

Posted 21 August 2014 - 03:20 PM

Linked below are just a few of the design flaws of human bodies, that humans might improve upon once we have better control over our DNA.   These flaws are perfectly explainable via evolution, which is a sub-optimal process that never needs to achieve design perfection -- instead, just good enough to work to propagate genes, is all that's required of evolution.

If a god controlled the design of humans, s/he did a piss-poor job given the huge blunders in our "design."

 

The Most Unfortunate Design Flaws in the Human Body

http://io9.com/the-m...body-1518242787

 

 



#879 sthira

  • Guest
  • 2,008 posts
  • 406

Posted 21 August 2014 - 04:28 PM

Linked below are just a few of the design flaws of human bodies, that humans might improve upon once we have better control over our DNA. These flaws are perfectly explainable via evolution, which is a sub-optimal process that never needs to achieve design perfection -- instead, just good enough to work to propagate genes, is all that's required of evolution.

If a god controlled the design of humans, s/he did a piss-poor job given the huge blunders in our "design."

The Most Unfortunate Design Flaws in the Human Body
http://io9.com/the-m...body-1518242787


Good writing. Clearly this is the direction we're headed to improve the human body. We seek to make our bodies more efficient, healthier, and last longer. We will do this on our own through science. Religion, just another struggling multinational corporation, may not add much to our progress. Science is our tool. Religion may have an important role that will be additive, but are there progressive religions that we may use to help us? Buddhism, yoga, the "spiritual but not religious" crowd seems to offer progressive motion. We created a paternalistic god because a fatherly god was beneficial to our species survival; we're killing dad now because daddy-god is no longer beneficial to our species survival. Seems plain and evident.

#880 serp777

  • Guest
  • 622 posts
  • 11
  • Location:who cares

Posted 21 August 2014 - 07:52 PM

Linked below are just a few of the design flaws of human bodies, that humans might improve upon once we have better control over our DNA.   These flaws are perfectly explainable via evolution, which is a sub-optimal process that never needs to achieve design perfection -- instead, just good enough to work to propagate genes, is all that's required of evolution.

If a god controlled the design of humans, s/he did a piss-poor job given the huge blunders in our "design."

 

The Most Unfortunate Design Flaws in the Human Body

http://io9.com/the-m...body-1518242787

I mean that's nothing; and how about the universe? Gamma ray bursts, rogue black holes, asteroids and meteors, solar flares, uranium and radioactivity, the cooling off core of our planet, the sensitivity of our climate to relatively small amounts of green house gasses, super viruses, lethal toxins, volcanoes, earthquakes, Tsunamis, hurricanes.

 

Was all this really necessary to test how well humanity could avoid commiting sin?

 

Strangely similar to a universe that doesn't care about humans. Strangely similar to random chance.



#881 shadowhawk

  • Guest, Member
  • 4,700 posts
  • 12
  • Location:Scotts Valley, Ca.
  • NO

Posted 21 August 2014 - 08:29 PM

Well I could address the existence of flawed things.  Designed things can be flawed and in  fact most of them are.  Show me one designed thing that we know was designed by intelligence that is now without flaws.  In fact there are good reasons for many flaws and good design implies them.  As for God, this topic and ID is not about God as i have noted dozens of times before. 



#882 addx

  • Guest
  • 711 posts
  • 184
  • Location:croatia
  • NO

Posted 22 August 2014 - 09:08 AM

As for God, this topic and ID is not about God as i have noted dozens of times before. 

 

Liar.

 

Does you God appreciate liars?



#883 sthira

  • Guest
  • 2,008 posts
  • 406

Posted 22 August 2014 - 10:26 AM

Well I could address the existence of flawed things. Designed things can be flawed and in fact most of them are. Show me one designed thing that we know was designed by intelligence that is now without flaws. In fact there are good reasons for many flaws and good design implies them. As for God, this topic and ID is not about God as i have noted dozens of times before.


Why would God design babies born with cancer? Is pointless suffering and the slow, painful death of innocent creatures part of God's design?
  • Good Point x 1

#884 DukeNukem

  • Guest
  • 2,009 posts
  • 145
  • Location:Dallas, Texas

Posted 22 August 2014 - 04:36 PM

 

Well I could address the existence of flawed things. Designed things can be flawed and in fact most of them are. Show me one designed thing that we know was designed by intelligence that is now without flaws. In fact there are good reasons for many flaws and good design implies them. As for God, this topic and ID is not about God as i have noted dozens of times before.


Why would God design babies born with cancer? Is pointless suffering and the slow, painful death of innocent creatures part of God's design?

 

 

Years ago a clever religious person came up with the ultimate get-out-of-jail-free card:   "God works in mysterious ways."    Religious people throw out this card anytime their god doesn't make the least bit of sense.


  • like x 1

#885 serp777

  • Guest
  • 622 posts
  • 11
  • Location:who cares

Posted 22 August 2014 - 04:45 PM

 

 

Well I could address the existence of flawed things. Designed things can be flawed and in fact most of them are. Show me one designed thing that we know was designed by intelligence that is now without flaws. In fact there are good reasons for many flaws and good design implies them. As for God, this topic and ID is not about God as i have noted dozens of times before.


Why would God design babies born with cancer? Is pointless suffering and the slow, painful death of innocent creatures part of God's design?

 

 

Years ago a clever religious person came up with the ultimate get-out-of-jail-free card:   "God works in mysterious ways."    Religious people throw out this card anytime their god doesn't make the least bit of sense.

 

This topic is about ID not about God T____T T_______T T________T Where is your evidence ? T__T T__T *Crying in the corner 



#886 shadowhawk

  • Guest, Member
  • 4,700 posts
  • 12
  • Location:Scotts Valley, Ca.
  • NO

Posted 22 August 2014 - 07:51 PM

DukeNukem: Years ago a clever religious person came up with the ultimate get-out-of-jail-free card:   "God works in mysterious ways."    Religious people throw out this card anytime their god doesn't make the least bit of sense.


God does work but often it is completely beyond us because we don’t have the capacity to understand even the cosmos.  It is beyond us and anything we don’t understand is a mystery.  On the other hand there are delusional people that think there is no mystery (they are to clever for that) and think they can answer everything.  No mystery for them but the truth is they don’t have a clue.  It makes no sense and what they need to overcome their sophomore (wise fool) delusion is an appreciation of their limitations.  They need mystery.  This is entirely off topic.

#887 shadowhawk

  • Guest, Member
  • 4,700 posts
  • 12
  • Location:Scotts Valley, Ca.
  • NO

Posted 22 August 2014 - 08:03 PM

serp777: This topic is about ID not about God T____T T_______T T________T Where is your evidence ? T__T T__T *Crying in the corner


Don’t cry, things will get better.  Perhaps you need a new keyboard and they do not cost much.  :sad:

#888 shifter

  • Guest
  • 716 posts
  • 5

Posted 23 August 2014 - 12:50 AM

Is there some kind of medical condition that describes the self loathing of our own DNA? lol

 

I like the comic at the end. Where else are you going to put the waste outlet while still keeping up the humanoid form and digestion? It is only human vanity which makes us see the present design as flawed.

 

In all the points mentioning our flaws, perhaps someone could counter the points in a better way it could be done?? Where would you put the arse?

 

Biology by its very nature, degrades over time. Our 21st century and industrial revolution is no friend for perfect biological health. You are not going to get 'perfection'. There will always be flaws and our environment will always do damage. Perhaps you could come up with a design resistant to radiation, pollution and time?

 

If 'God' made us, perhaps he didn't want us to live forever. He can do what he likes right? We can create strains of mice that live a few weeks or a few years. We can make mice glow in the dark or ears on their backs. To a mouse, we could be Gods however we are not omnipotent or perfect. It's all about perpective. God may not be the perfect omnipotent being we make Him out to be. He could just be an incredibly smart scientist and the universe his playground or laboratory.

 

Did he do a piss poor job? Until someone can do a better job I'd say if the universe did have a creator, He did a pretty good job. Name one thing in the (known) universe that is more marvellous than the human conciousness or the concept of life.

 

Keep in mind, if we did have a creator, he gave us a mind capable of learning and aquireing knowledge. Knowledge has to be earned and learned for it to be used wisely. If you gave the knowlege of God to untold billions of people without having worked for it, do you think the world would be a better place? I think on balance, the order of the universe is very good if not as close to perfect as the definition permits.

 

Until someone with the actual answer comes to explain it to us, everything said on these kinds up subjects is all moot. No one on here has the intellectual authority to claim anything is right or wrong simply because regardless of our opinions, we don't know what the answer is. So thats all anything on here is. Opinions. (including mine) :)

 

 

 

 

 

Linked below are just a few of the design flaws of human bodies, that humans might improve upon once we have better control over our DNA.   These flaws are perfectly explainable via evolution, which is a sub-optimal process that never needs to achieve design perfection -- instead, just good enough to work to propagate genes, is all that's required of evolution.

If a god controlled the design of humans, s/he did a piss-poor job given the huge blunders in our "design."

 

The Most Unfortunate Design Flaws in the Human Body

http://io9.com/the-m...body-1518242787

 


Edited by shifter, 23 August 2014 - 12:53 AM.


#889 shadowhawk

  • Guest, Member
  • 4,700 posts
  • 12
  • Location:Scotts Valley, Ca.
  • NO

Posted 23 August 2014 - 01:27 AM

 

Is there some kind of medical condition that describes the self loathing of our own DNA? lol

 

I like the comic at the end. Where else are you going to put the waste outlet while still keeping up the humanoid form and digestion? It is only human vanity which makes us see the present design as flawed.

 

In all the points mentioning our flaws, perhaps someone could counter the points in a better way it could be done?? Where would you put the arse?

 

Biology by its very nature, degrades over time. Our 21st century and industrial revolution is no friend for perfect biological health. You are not going to get 'perfection'. There will always be flaws and our environment will always do damage. Perhaps you could come up with a design resistant to radiation, pollution and time?

 

If 'God' made us, perhaps he didn't want us to live forever. He can do what he likes right? We can create strains of mice that live a few weeks or a few years. We can make mice glow in the dark or ears on their backs. To a mouse, we could be Gods however we are not omnipotent or perfect. It's all about perpective. God may not be the perfect omnipotent being we make Him out to be. He could just be an incredibly smart scientist and the universe his playground or laboratory.

 

Did he do a piss poor job? Until someone can do a better job I'd say if the universe did have a creator, He did a pretty good job. Name one thing in the (known) universe that is more marvellous than the human conciousness or the concept of life.

 

Keep in mind, if we did have a creator, he gave us a mind capable of learning and aquireing knowledge. Knowledge has to be earned and learned for it to be used wisely. If you gave the knowlege of God to untold billions of people without having worked for it, do you think the world would be a better place? I think on balance, the order of the universe is very good if not as close to perfect as the definition permits.

 

Until someone with the actual answer comes to explain it to us, everything said on these kinds up subjects is all moot. No one on here has the intellectual authority to claim anything is right or wrong simply because regardless of our opinions, we don't know what the answer is. So thats all anything on here is. Opinions. (including mine) :)

 

 

 

 

 

Linked below are just a few of the design flaws of human bodies, that humans might improve upon once we have better control over our DNA.   These flaws are perfectly explainable via evolution, which is a sub-optimal process that never needs to achieve design perfection -- instead, just good enough to work to propagate genes, is all that's required of evolution.

If a god controlled the design of humans, s/he did a piss-poor job given the huge blunders in our "design."

 

The Most Unfortunate Design Flaws in the Human Body

http://io9.com/the-m...body-1518242787

 

ID members do not all believe in God.  Some are atheists and agnostics.  What they believe is there is evidence of intelligent design.  We know things that are designed and the design does not have to do all things.  For example we can't fly and birds can't run on four legs.  A cow can't swim like a whale.  We may be well designed but good design can have limits.  Most design has limits and some things the design does not work for.  The purpose of the designer must be known to determine whether they did a good job.



#890 serp777

  • Guest
  • 622 posts
  • 11
  • Location:who cares

Posted 23 August 2014 - 04:56 PM

 

serp777: This topic is about ID not about God T____T T_______T T________T Where is your evidence ? T__T T__T *Crying in the corner


Don’t cry, things will get better.  Perhaps you need a new keyboard and they do not cost much.  :sad:

 

 

It's just that I'm so concerned with this crappy, beaten to death thread staying on the topic.



#891 shadowhawk

  • Guest, Member
  • 4,700 posts
  • 12
  • Location:Scotts Valley, Ca.
  • NO

Posted 23 August 2014 - 10:56 PM

Take a deep breath.  The world will not come to an end if we scientifically study whether design is part of nature or not.  Further study will tell I hope.



#892 serp777

  • Guest
  • 622 posts
  • 11
  • Location:who cares

Posted 23 August 2014 - 11:24 PM

Take a deep breath.  The world will not come to an end if we scientifically study whether design is part of nature or not.  Further study will tell I hope.

 

Take a look at sarcasm. And no it won't. Scientists will keep doing real work, and your pseudo fictions will not be relevant. 



#893 shadowhawk

  • Guest, Member
  • 4,700 posts
  • 12
  • Location:Scotts Valley, Ca.
  • NO

Posted 23 August 2014 - 11:34 PM

 

Take a deep breath.  The world will not come to an end if we scientifically study whether design is part of nature or not.  Further study will tell I hope.

 

Take a look at sarcasm. And no it won't. Scientists will keep doing real work, and your pseudo fictions will not be relevant. 

 

Your usual name calling.  :)



#894 serp777

  • Guest
  • 622 posts
  • 11
  • Location:who cares

Posted 24 August 2014 - 12:18 AM

 

 

Take a deep breath.  The world will not come to an end if we scientifically study whether design is part of nature or not.  Further study will tell I hope.

 

Take a look at sarcasm. And no it won't. Scientists will keep doing real work, and your pseudo fictions will not be relevant. 

 

Your usual name calling.  :)

 

Your usual crap.  :sad:



#895 shadowhawk

  • Guest, Member
  • 4,700 posts
  • 12
  • Location:Scotts Valley, Ca.
  • NO

Posted 24 August 2014 - 02:30 AM

 

 

 

Take a deep breath.  The world will not come to an end if we scientifically study whether design is part of nature or not.  Further study will tell I hope.

 

Take a look at sarcasm. And no it won't. Scientists will keep doing real work, and your pseudo fictions will not be relevant. 

 

Your usual name calling.  :)

 

Your usual crap.  :sad:

 

And your usual heavy duty arguments.  You showed them.  :)



#896 shadowhawk

  • Guest, Member
  • 4,700 posts
  • 12
  • Location:Scotts Valley, Ca.
  • NO

Posted 24 August 2014 - 02:38 AM

SCIENCE WHAT IS IT?

 

http://intelligentde...T21_03_01-07_00

 

 

 



#897 shadowhawk

  • Guest, Member
  • 4,700 posts
  • 12
  • Location:Scotts Valley, Ca.
  • NO

Posted 26 August 2014 - 02:52 AM

Non Religious IDers.

 

http://intelligentde...T15_07_31-07_00

 

 



#898 shadowhawk

  • Guest, Member
  • 4,700 posts
  • 12
  • Location:Scotts Valley, Ca.
  • NO

Posted 12 September 2014 - 01:48 AM

What are Boltzmann brains, and what challenge do they post to the multiverse hypothesis?

I thought I would turn to the atheist theoretical physicist Sean Carroll, who has previously debated William Lane Craig, to explain to us what a Boltzmann brain is, and what threat it posts to the multiverse hypothesis.

Here is Sean Caroll, quoted by About.com:

Ludwig Boltzmann was one of the founders of the field of thermodynamics in the nineteenth century. One of the key concepts was the second law of thermodynamics, which says that the entropy of a closed system always increases. Since the universe is a closed system, we would expect the entropy to decrease over time. This means that, given enough time, the most likely state of the universe is one where everything is the in thermodynamic equilibrium … but we clearly don’t exist in a universe of this type since, after all, there is order all around us in various forms, not the least of which is the fact that we exist.

With this in mind, we can apply the anthropic principle to inform our reasoning by taking into account that we do, in fact, exist. Here the logic gets a little confusing, so I’m going to borrow the words from a couple of more detailed looks at the situation. As described by cosmologist Sean Carroll in From Eternity to Here:

Boltzmann invoked the anthropic principle (although he didn’t call it that) to explain why we wouldn’t find ourselves in one of the very common equilibrium phases: In equilibrium, life cannot exist. Clearly, what we want to do is find the most common conditions within such a universe that are hospitable to life. Or, if we want to be more careful, perhaps we should look for conditions that are not only hospitable to life, but hospitable to the particular kind of intelligent and self-aware life that we like to think we are….

We can take this logic to its ultimate conclusion. If what we want is a single planet, we certainly don’t need a hundred billion galaxies with a hundred billion stars each. And if what we want is a single person, we certainly don’t need an entire planet. But if in fact what we want is a single intelligence, able to think about the world, we don’t even need an entire person–we just need his or her brain.

So the reductio ad absurdum of this scenario is that the overwhelming majority of intelligences in this multiverse will be lonely, disembodied brains, who fluctuate gradually out of the surrounding chaos and then gradually dissolve back into it. Such sad creatures have been dubbed “Boltzmann brains” by Andreas Albrecht and Lorenzo Sorbo….

In a 2004 paper, Albrecht and Sorbo discussed “Boltzmann brains” in their essay:

A century ago Boltzmann considered a “cosmology” where the observed universe should be regarded as a rare fluctuation out of some equilibrium state. The prediction of this point of view, quite generically, is that we live in a universe which maximizes the total entropy of the system consistent with existing observations. Other universes simply occur as much more rare fluctuations. This means as much as possible of the system should be found in equilibrium as often as possible.

From this point of view, it is very surprising that we find the universe around us in such a low entropy state. In fact, the logical conclusion of this line of reasoning is utterly solipsistic. The most likely fluctuation consistent with everything you know is simply your brain (complete with “memories” of the Hubble Deep fields, WMAP data, etc) fluctuating briefly out of chaos and then immediately equilibrating back into chaos again. This is sometimes called the “Boltzmann’s Brain” paradox.

[...]Now that you understand Boltzmann brains as a concept, though, you have to proceed a bit to understanding the “Boltzmann brain paradox” that is caused by applying this thinking to this absurd degree. Again, as formulated by Carroll:

Why do we find ourselves in a universe evolving gradually from a state of incredibly low entropy, rather than being isolated creatures that recently fluctuated from the surrounding chaos?

Unfortunately, there is no clear explanation to resolve this … thus why it’s still classified as a paradox.

Naturalists like to propose the multiverse as a way of explaining away the fine-tuning that we see, and explaining why complex, embodied intelligent beings like ourselves exist. But even if the multiverse hypothesis were true, we still would not expect to observe stars, planets, and conscious embodied intelligent beings. It is far more likely on a multiverse scenario that any observers we had would be “Boltzmann” brains in an empty universe. The multiverse hypothesis doesn’t explain the universe we have, which contains “a hundred billion galaxies with a hundred billion stars each” – not to mention our bodies which are composed of heavy elements, all of which require fine-tuning piled on fine-tuning piled on fine-tuning.

William Lane Craig answered a question about Boltzmann brains a while back, so let’s look at his answer since we saw what his debate opponent said above.

He writes:

Incredible as it may sound, today the principal–almost the only–alternative to a Cosmic Designer to explain the incomprehensibly precise fine tuning of nature’s constants and fundamental quantities is the postulate of a World Ensemble of (a preferably infinite number of) randomly ordered universes. By thus multiplying one’s probabilistic resources, one ensures that by chance alone somewhere in this infinite ensemble finely tuned universes like ours will appear.

Now comes the key move: since observers can exist only in worlds fine-tuned for their existence, OF COURSE we observe our world to be fine-tuned! The worlds which aren’t finely tuned have no observers in them and so cannot be observed! Hence, our observing the universe to be fine-tuned for our existence is no surprise: if it weren’t, we wouldn’t be here to be surprised. So this explanation of fine tuning relies on (i) the hypothesis of a World Ensemble and (ii) an observer self-selection effect.

Now apart from objections to (i) of a direct sort, this alternative faces a very formidable objection to (ii), namely, if we were just a random member of a World Ensemble, then we ought to be observing a very different universe. Roger Penrose has calculated that the odds of our solar system’s forming instantaneously through the random collision of particles is incomprehensibly more probable that the universe’s being fine-tuned, as it is. So if we were a random member of a World Ensemble, we should be observing a patch of order no larger than our solar system in a sea of chaos. Worlds like that are simply incomprehensibly more plentiful in the World Ensemble than worlds like ours and so ought to be observed by us if we were but a random member of such an ensemble.

Here’s where the Boltzmann Brains come into the picture. In order to be observable the patch of order needn’t be even as large as the solar system. The most probable observable world would be one in which a single brain fluctuates into existence out of the quantum vacuum and observes its otherwise empty world. The idea isn’t that the brain is the whole universe, but just a patch of order in the midst of disorder. Don’t worry that the brain couldn’t persist long: it just has to exist long enough to have an observation, and the improbability of the quantum fluctuations necessary for it to exist that long will be trivial in comparison to the improbability of fine tuning.

In other words, the observer self-selection effect is explanatorily vacuous. It does not suffice to show that only finely tuned worlds are observable. As Robin Collins has noted, what needs to be explained is not just intelligent life, but embodied, interactive, intelligent agents like ourselves. Appeal to an observer self-selection effect accomplishes nothing because there is no reason whatever to think that most observable worlds are worlds in which that kind of observer exists. Indeed, the opposite appears to be true: most observable worlds will be Boltzmann Brain worlds.

Allen Hainline explained some of the OTHER problems with the multiverse in a post on Cross Examined’s blog. I recommend taking a look at those as well, because I feel funny even talking about Boltzmann brains. I would rather just say that there is no experimental evidence for the multiverse hypothesis, as I blogged before, and leave it at that. But if the person you are talking to fights you on it, you can disprove the multiverse with the Boltzmann brains.

 

#899 serp777

  • Guest
  • 622 posts
  • 11
  • Location:who cares

Posted 12 September 2014 - 02:02 AM

Can someone please lock this dumb thread and shut this idiot up? Spare the forum his endless gibbering that no one listens to or cares about. 


  • like x 1

#900 shadowhawk

  • Guest, Member
  • 4,700 posts
  • 12
  • Location:Scotts Valley, Ca.
  • NO

Posted 12 September 2014 - 02:17 AM

Can someone please lock this dumb thread and shut this idiot up? Spare the forum his endless gibbering that no one listens to or cares about. 

 

And what do you call this?  :)  What about the multiverse?
 







Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: id debate, intelligent design, is id science, god and sience, creationism, neutral id position

17 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 17 guests, 0 anonymous users