16 replies to this topic

[ironfistx]

Hi,

I've been reading this forum and looking up all this stuff for a while but seem to be getting confused and conflicting info.

I'm looking for some supplements for general anti-inflammatory effects as well as to help heal up some stubborn tendonitis. I'll also share with you what I've used and my experience with it.

Background on me: 31 year old male. Lifting weights since 18. Special considerations at bottom.

Here are the supplements that I am interested in:

ASTRAGALUS - According to one study I heard about, it improved endurance in rats, improved quality of life and reduced chemo induced fatigue in cancer patients by 50% (not sure if it would have a similiar effect on people who aren't doing chemo). Supposed to be anti-inflammatory.

My questions about this supplement are what exactly am I supposed to look for on the label? For example, consider these different brands:

Solaray
200mg - Astragalus(ASTRAGALUS MEMBRANACEUS)(ROOT EXTRACT)(GUARANTEED 70% {140 MG} POLYSACCHARIDES)

VitaminShoppe
500mg - Astragalus Membranaceus(Root)
(no info about standardization or amount of polysaccharides)

Nature's Plus
450mg - ASTRAGALUS(ASTRAGALUS MEMBRANACEUS ROOT)(STANDARDIZED TO 0.4% (1.8 MG) 4'-HYDROXY-3'-METHOXYISOFLAVONE 7-SUG)
(lol wut)

Nature's Way
333mg - Astragalus(ROOT)

Solgar
90mg - Astragalus Extract2:1 (Root)
350mg - Raw Astragalus Powder(Root)

etc.

Anyway, none of that means anything to me. How do I know which kind I'm supposed to use? Does standardization even matter? What is a 4'-Hydroxy-3'Methoxyisoflavone 7-Sug?

I'm well aware that when a supplement becomes popular, companies will just start making it and people will buy it because it has that supplement's name on the bottle without paying attention to if it's the leaf or root or whatever, standardization, etc. So I want to make sure I get the right stuff.

Also, Dr. Oz said Astragalus will prevent telomere shortening and you'll live longer. That would be a nice side effect.


GRAPE SEED EXTRACT - supposed to lower blood pressure (not an issue for me, see note below). Supposed to be a good anti-oxidant. I've heard that the methods used for extracting grape seed and pine bark extracts almost always include the use of organic solvents, which are toxic, and cannot be completely removed from the substances after the extraction process, and the consumer gets some toxic residue in the final product. That's not cool. Your thoughts on this? Is it worth taking as an anti-inflammatory?


ASTAXANTHIN - I'm having trouble finding legit info about this. Most of what I read are spam posts on forums talking about sunburn immunity and huge endurance increases and of course they're almost always accompanied by links to buy your own. *coughshillcough*. And then you've got the people who argue about Pfaffia Rhodozyma vs Haematococcus Pluvialis extract. It's infuriating that it's so hard to find legit info about supplements. A thread on this forum suggested that doses above 8mg may be associated with increased risk of lung cancer. I've also heard it can cause "shifts in hormone levels" although it wasn't specific as to how they were shifting, also reduced calcium levels, decreased libido and breast enlargement in men, although rare. Some sources say it is a good anti-inflammatory.


QUERCETIN - supposed to be a powerful flavinoid?


Any other suggestions for anti-inflammatory things???


Here's what I've used in the past:

BROMELAIN - Started with 500mg pills @ 600GDU. Took up to 3 per day, on an empty stomach (as recommended for inflammation). No effect. Increased to 500mg pills @ 2,000GDU. Caused heart palpitations. Later I found a warning online that you shouldn't take more than a certain amount (800mg? I don't remember) per day if you have a history of heart palpitations. Unfortunately, almost all Bromelain information talks about doses in mg which is useless without knowing the GDU. 500mg at 600 GDU is substantially less than 500mg at 2,000 GDU even though they're both 500mg. So saying "take 500mg of Bromelain" doesn't mean anything, nor is it a dose that can be recreated.

CURCUMIN - I used Vitamin Shoppe's brand cuz it had piperine mixed in which is supposed to increase the bioavailability by 2,000% or some ridiculous number like that. A single pill gave me diarrhea and killed my libido. No effect on pain. I emptied out half of a pill capsule and tried again. Diarrhea and loss of libido. I tried 1/4 of a pill. Diarrhea and loss of libido. No effect on pain ever. I stopped taking this. From what I learned on another forum, Curcumin is also an MAOI (although one without the "cheese effect") and can have a boost in mood. They also said that abrupt discontinuation can result in rebound inflammation and reinjury. All of this combined with the fact that it made me sick, took away my ability to get it up, and didn't do anything for the pain made me realize Curcumin is not a supplement for me.

MAGNESIUM - I know everyone loves magnesium, especially for tendonitis. Magnesium Taurate (Cardiovascular Research brand) seemed to reduce my pain. It also made me sleepy so I started taking it at night. I think that was the taurine, and sometimes I use 500mg of taurine as a sleep aid before bed. I later tried Magnesium Malate and Magnesium Glycinate, both of which gave me heart palpitations even at low dosages. They got so bad I went to a cardiologist who had me wear a ZioPatch (heart monitor) for 4 days. I was having upwards of 60 palpitations per day. About a week after stopping the magnesium, they finally went away. Scary. Do not want to try this again.


Special considerations - I have chronic tic disorder and take 1/4 of a 0.1mg Clonidine pill (that's a dose of 0.025mg) nightly. It's an alpha blocker blood pressure medicine that is used off label to treat tics. My blood pressure is normal to begin with, and the Clonidine makes it even lower, so sometimes if I stand up too fast I get dizzy. Why am I mentioning this? I do extra research on any supplement I consider trying to make sure it won't exacerbate tic disorders. For example, I cannot use steroids (including corticosteroids, and presumably ketosteroids (Cissus)), because they are known to exacerbate tics, sometimes significantly. I also have IBS and need to take it easy on my stomach. When I start a new supplement or medication I usually start with 1/4 of a dose just to check for tolerance and then slowly increase up to a normal dose.

Looking forward to your replies. Sorry for the novel-length post.

Edited by ironfistx, 27 September 2012 - 11:42 PM.

[niner]

What's the nature of your inflammation? Are you using any pharmaceuticals?

[ironfistx]

What's the nature of your inflammation? Are you using any pharmaceuticals?

General joint pain that comes and goes. I've had tendinitis/tendonosis in three different joints in the last 18 months, and each time went through PT rehab. I find it strange that in 10+ years of lifting weights and never having issues, in an 18 month period I get tendinitis 3 times in 3 different joints. My volume is never very high, either. I think of tendonitis as an overuse injury which is why I was confused that I got it; I tend to work out each body part once a week and only do one exercise with 5 or 6 sets of 6-10 reps per bodypart. My workout is like someone else's warmup.

The only thing I'm taking now is the Clonidine as mentioned in the first post, and the following supplements:

- Fish oil - about 1g combined EPA/DHA
(5-7 days a week)

- B vitamins (500 mcg methyl B12 sublingual liquid, standard B complex, p5p). My B12 levels were tested and were in the middle of the normal range, but some mornings when I am feeling tired, 250-500 mcg of B12 seems to perk me up a little. Could be placebo.
(1-4 days a week)

- 2,000 IU Vitamin D3 (oil form)
(4-5 days a week)

- Ginger pills (550mg) - as needed for stomach discomfort, random nausea, etc (IBS)
(0-7 days a week depending on how I feel)

As part of my last tendonitis treatment I was taking 2mg Copper daily for 7-10 days, but have stopped that now.

On rare occasion, usually less than once per month, I take hyoscyamine (prescription antispasmodic) if I start having stronger IBS-related issues.

It's also worth mentioning that I almost never have caffeine. I don't drink soda/pop, and if I drink tea, it's usually caffeine free tea.

I'm also under the impression that generalized inflammation is bad for the body, so another reason I'm interested in anti-inflammatories is just for overall health and to keep myself feeling good as I age (I'm currently 31, I know that's not "old" but I certainly feel different than I did when I was 21, and I'd like to feel good and be in good health for as long as possible).

Let me know if you need more info.

Edited by ironfistx, 28 September 2012 - 03:22 PM.

[pamojja]

Hi ironfistx. Would be interested in opinions to your interesting questions too. Sorry though, that I can't offer much my self.

For example, never got any of the adverse reaction you've experienced from magnesium, curcumin or bromelain. However, best dosages are always a very individual thing - considering preexisting nutritional imbalances, kind and extent of inflammation, synergies/antagonism or diet - and only can be found out by patient titration over extended time periods with much trial and error . Which is of course kind of mood, if you already get adverse reaction to tiny amounts.

One way to find out more is to get regularly as many lab marker related to nutrients and inflammation as possible. Which in the longer run could give valuable insights into the background to your issues you very unlikely would become aware of without. For example, just found out in retrospect that whenever my lipids worsened it was actually always associated with worsening in liver enzymes (though not necessarily by exceeding normal reference ranges) - therefore could take action against an issue I wasn't even aware of.

I've heard that the methods used for extracting grape seed and pine bark extracts almost always include the use of organic solvents, which are toxic, and cannot be completely removed from the substances after the extraction process, and the consumer gets some toxic residue in the final product. That's not cool. Your thoughts on this?

If you hear such rumors it's best to investigate right then and there on which ground these conclusion were made from. Toxic in the test tube? - which kind of animals and dose equivalent to human intake? Measured raw material/tissue levels with clear associations to toxicity? etc.

Or provide the link to an abstract so that others who have access to the whole text could decipher. Hope others with more knowledge chime in.

[niner]

General joint pain that comes and goes. I've had tendinitis/tendonosis in three different joints in the last 18 months, and each time went through PT rehab. I find it strange that in 10+ years of lifting weights and never having issues, in an 18 month period I get tendinitis 3 times in 3 different joints. My volume is never very high, either. I think of tendonitis as an overuse injury which is why I was confused that I got it; I tend to work out each body part once a week and only do one exercise with 5 or 6 sets of 6-10 reps per bodypart. My workout is like someone else's warmup.

Did you by any chance have a course of quinolone antibiotics a couple years ago? Quinolones are the ones that have "flox" as part of their name. They can cause tendon issues. I'm a little curious about your workout- the low rep count suggests a high weight, but you have a lot of sets. Going a week between workouts for a given body part seems long, and also suggests high weights, though you say it's like another person's warmup, so are you using light weight?

Tendinitis tends to be a bitch, and can be difficult-to-impossible to heal. I've had biceps tendinitis for a decade, and have managed to keep it under control with a shoulder rehab program, but it looks like it's never going to go away, at least not until regenerative medicine is more highly developed.

At 31, you ought to feel pretty good. This and the IBS makes me wonder about your diet, which can have a tremendous impact on your overall sense of well being, not to mention IBS. What's your diet like?

[ironfistx]

For example, never got any of the adverse reaction you've experienced from magnesium, curcumin or bromelain.

I did have my magnesium tested (blood test, which I hear isn't the most accurate way?) by my cardiologist while I was having palpitations. It came back as 2.4 mg/dl, which is the upper limit of normal range (normal range is 1.6-2.4 mg/dl), so perhaps my magnesium supplementation gave me too much and that's what caused the palpitations. Maybe I'm not in the 64% of Americans or whatever who don't get enough magnesium in their diets.

One way to find out more is to get regularly as many lab marker related to nutrients and inflammation as possible.

That's not a bad idea. Which specific tests should I ask for?

I've heard that the methods used for extracting grape seed and pine bark extracts almost always include the use of organic solvents, which are toxic, and cannot be completely removed from the substances after the extraction process, and the consumer gets some toxic residue in the final product. That's not cool. Your thoughts on this?

If you hear such rumors it's best to investigate right then and there on which ground these conclusion were made from. Toxic in the test tube? - which kind of animals and dose equivalent to human intake? Measured raw material/tissue levels with clear associations to toxicity? etc.

I found that quote about the grape seed extract in post 12 of this thread: http://www.mindandmu.../4074-idebenone

I will research this more and see what I can find.

General joint pain that comes and goes. I've had tendinitis/tendonosis in three different joints in the last 18 months, and each time went through PT rehab. I find it strange that in 10+ years of lifting weights and never having issues, in an 18 month period I get tendinitis 3 times in 3 different joints. My volume is never very high, either. I think of tendonitis as an overuse injury which is why I was confused that I got it; I tend to work out each body part once a week and only do one exercise with 5 or 6 sets of 6-10 reps per bodypart. My workout is like someone else's warmup.

Did you by any chance have a course of quinolone antibiotics a couple years ago? Quinolones are the ones that have "flox" as part of their name. They can cause tendon issues. I'm a little curious about your workout- the low rep count suggests a high weight, but you have a lot of sets. Going a week between workouts for a given body part seems long, and also suggests high weights, though you say it's like another person's warmup, so are you using light weight?

No floxins. The only antibiotics I've ever used, to my knowledge, was a dose of amoxicilin 6 years ago when I had my wisdom teeth pulled.

I use relatively heavy weights, but I always cycle up and down over the weeks. I don't mean for this to turn into a weight lifting thread, but an example chest workout might look like this:

Dumbbell Flat Press (I like this more than bench press)

50s x 10
65s x 8
75s x 6
85s x 4
50s x 10

Each week or two I will increase the weight of all but the first set by 5 pounds. Once it gets to a point where I can't complete the number of reps, I'll take a week off and start over again with lower weights. This generally results continual strength gains over time and minimal DOMs.

When I say low volume, I say that because that is my ENTIRE chest workout. I don't go on to do more sets of other chest exercises the way a lot of people do (you know, they bench, then use a chest machine, then do cable crossovers, then do... ). I do one exercise per body part per week, and it's worked pretty well for me over the years.

Tendinitis tends to be a bitch, and can be difficult-to-impossible to heal. I've had biceps tendinitis for a decade, and have managed to keep it under control with a shoulder rehab program, but it looks like it's never going to go away, at least not until regenerative medicine is more highly developed.

I've found that what seemed to help my shoulder tendonitis the most is ice massage. Take a Dixie cup or styrofoam up, fill it with water, freeze it, peel back the top inch or so, and massage the sore body part. Do this 3-4 times a day. Massage for 5-10 minutes or until it goes numb, but never more than 15-20 minutes. I find that styrofoam cups work a little better as your hand doesn't get cold while holding them (Dixie cups aren't very insulated and your fingers will get cold as you hold it).

My rotator cuff and biceps tendonitis took 9 months to go away with a rehab program, but I didn't add ice massage until the last 3 months. Prior to that I was just using a regular ice pack which I don't think was really doing anything. I still do ice massage on that shoudler now after chest workouts just as a preventative.

At 31, you ought to feel pretty good. This and the IBS makes me wonder about your diet, which can have a tremendous impact on your overall sense of well being, not to mention IBS. What's your diet like?

The story of my IBS is a long one. For most of my life I could eat whatever I wanted and never have any issues. One night a few years ago, I got the stomach flu and almost died. I couldn't stop throwing up, projectile vomiting every 15 minutes for 6 hours, dehydration to the point that breathing felt like I was being stabbed in the kidneys and I couldn't inflate my lungs more than about 30%, my tongue was dry to the touch, and I could barely walk/talk. My craving for water was unlike anything I've ever felt, but even a small sip would cause another bout of throwing up. I ended up in the ER where the nurse said from across the room that she could see how dry I was. I was hooked up to an IV, spent the next 6 hours throwing up, having diarrhea, and sort of sleeping. I asked for pain killers because I couldn't even take a full breath. The nurse delivered and I finally got some sleep. Then I woke up and threw up some more. The next morning they decided to keep me for observation, and by this point I had lost over 15 pounds (about 8-9% of my bodyweight). When the anti-nausea meds wore off, I threw up some more. It was the stomach flu. Stool tests for food poisoning were negative. Plus, my dad and my gf also got it the next day, and we didn't share any food. Except my dad and my gf threw up like twice and were done. lol.

The point was, I had it really bad.

About a month later (I still hadn't gained my 15 pounds back yet) I started to have stomach issues. I never felt quite right. At about this time, my doctor wanted me to try Zoloft as a trial treatment for my tics. I tried half a pill, and a few hours later started throwing up (a reaction to the pill?). I never took any more. Months later, my immunologist would say that usually the only people who have that reaction are people who didn't need the medication in the first place. I told my doctor I wanted to try Clonidine instead, and was much happier with it.

So ever since the stomach flu/Zoloft incident, my stomach never felt right. A few months later I started having pain, nausea, discomfort, and diarrhea on a daily basis. I lost 15-20 pounds in a month (I'm an ectomorph to begin with) and started feeling really sick. To make a long story short (too late, right?), my gastroenterologist thought I might have Crohn's disease, so I had just about every test you can think of, but they all came back negative or inconclusive. Just for fun, here is a list:

- CT scan of lower abdomen
- Colonoscopy
- Upper endoscopy
- Multiple stool tests for parasites
- A whole slew of blood tests, I've forgotten most of them, but like ANA tests and CBCs and other stuff like that
- Barium Xray
- Small capsule endoscopy (where you swallow a pill with a camera in it)
- Blood tests for Crohn's genetic markers (which I heard after the fact isn't even reliable, altho it's expensive)
- Blood test for Gluten intolerance

They were all negative. Yet I continued to feel like crap every day. I saw two other specialists in Chicago and after looking at all my tests and story, one of them said that sometimes, after a really bad case of stomach flu, your gastrointestinal physiology can actually change and you can develop IBS. He said usually it's right afterward, not a few months like in my case, but that was still the most likely explanation. By this point it had been 10 months or so and I was slowly starting to feel better. He gave me some IBS drugs and said take them when I don't feel good or have pain.

That was all 2-3 years ago. Generally speaking I feel better now. I only have IBS issues every month or so rather than every day, although sometimes it does still come out of nowhere, and it will fatigue me for the entire day. I take ginger pills and drink ginger tea a few times a week when I feel a little bloated or nauseous or whatever.

My diet is pretty decent at this point. I haven't had fast food in years. I eat a lot of grilled chicken, lean beef, salads, fruits, veggies, rice (brown and white), potatoes (sweet and regular), etc. I just have to eat a lot of it cuz I'm an ectomorph weight lifter. I used to eat a lot of frozen meals (I'm a bachelor and they're easy to cook!) but I have stopped in recent months, and I find that after eating healthier "real food," I don't even like them that much anymore.

There are a few things I can't eat anymore that set off my IBS. Certain types of pizza will do it. Too much spicy food will do it (I have recently started liking spicy food, too). I don't think it's gluten, though. I also find that if I don't get enough fiber, that makes things worse.

Alright that's my life story. I kinda wanted to be detailed tho in case someone here sees something that sticks out to them.

Oh, last thing. I'm pretty high strung, and I will get diarrhea if the nerves get too bad. But that's not a new thing for me; even when I was a kid it would happen before my hockey games, before I had to play a solo in band, etc. Probably all related somehow, though.

[ironfistx]

Regarding astragalus, this article says telomerase activation is one of the factors that enables cancerous cells to achieve immortal status and reproduce so quickly in the human body. It suggests a telomerase supressing agent would be more valuable. Thoughts?
http://healthmad.com...side-effects/2/

It also suggests that there are two types of Astragalus supplements:

As an important aside, Astragalus root extract supplements are not to be confused with refined Astragalus membranaceus extracts now being marketed as telomere enhancing, and therefore supposedly life prolonging products, claims for which are based on natural telomerase activating extracts

So is Astragalus root not the one we want? Seems like most of the supplements are labeled as root extract. Some are labeled as both. For example, Solaray brand says "Astragalus(ASTRAGALUS MEMBRANACEUS)(ROOT EXTRACT)(GUARANTEED 70% {140 MG} POLYSACCHARIDES)".

I originally had Resveratrol in my list of possible supplements, but many people reported tendonitis as a side effect, and I don't need any more tendonitis, and things I've read suggests that too low of a dose is bad (worse than not taking any at all), too high of a dose is bad, and no one seems to know what the optimal dose is, so I'm going to stay away. The "too little is bad" thing scares me. I like sloping line dose curves, not U shaped dose curves.

Edited by ironfistx, 30 September 2012 - 05:08 PM.

[Guardian4981]

Op,

I am a lifter like you.

I find "devils claw" seems to help with inflamation noticably. In fact, this stuff works so well that sometimes when I train I literally do not feel much pain. My last set of squats to failure I actually stop the set because I feel light headed not from the pain, and the next day I feel little pain too!

Also, cissus quadrangularis seems to help as well.

Fish oil may help but I do not use it much because I find it causes my nasal allergies to get much worse.

I also think there is a serotonin connection with inflamation/pain. I don't think this has been well studied, but cissus for example raises serum serotonin. I also feel less pain when I use niacinimide which also may raise serotonin. When I increase dopamine, I tend to feel more pain. I have read research that cordyceps, a strong dopamine increaser, may be bad for connective tissue.

What I am not sure on is does serotonin simply reduce the feeling of pain or does it actually lower inflamation that causes the pain?

CURCUMIN probably lowers your libido cause its an MAO-B inhibitor, though being a B inhibitor I would think this may raise it. But libido is complex, generally dopamine is the strongest predictor but if serotonin is too low then libido may decline even with high dopamine.

GRAPE SEED EXTRACT and or pycnogenol I personally would think may actually increase inflamation due to the fact it dilates the blood vessels which generally is correlated to more sensation.

BROMELAIN- I find taking it as a supplement doesn't do squat but drinking pineapple juice seems to help inflamation. I do not drink the juice anymore as I want to keep fructose intake in check and "save" the allotment for berrys.

ASTRAGALUS I use on and off, I do notice it greatly helps my nasal allergies which would imply some kind of inflamation role, however I do not notice much from it with the rest of my body. Astragalus is known to help the immune system, boosting the immune system may increase inflation, however this is a generality, astragalus seems to be a bit of a quandry in this regard. I don't notice much in terms of endurance either, some of these purported benefits my guess is may not be very noticable for healthy people. I use just raw powder about 5 grams a day. I think generally speaking, I prefer to take things as they exist more in nature rather then an extract.

ASTAXANTHIN- I find it helps my skin look healthier and retain a bit more color in the offseason winter months. I don't notice anything that major in regard to inflamatory control.

MAGNESIUM- I take this at night sometimes, it seems to help sleep and recovery, and sometimes can improve mood. The issue with magnesium I think is it can potentially lower dopamine. I struggle with naturally low dopamine and serotonin, it if was just one or the other it be easier but to raise both at the same time is tough and I am still figuring it out. Anyway, I would not say magnesium noticablly helps inflamation. I think magneisum is one of those things where if your deficient it will make many issues worse, but if you are getting enough it won't necessarily fix anything such as inflamation.


Lastly, diet plays a role, excessive carb intake tends to be very inflamatory, from this standpoint something like Benfotiamine or Cinnulin may help, though be careful because if you use these on medium to low carbs you may risk sending your blood glucose too low.

Hope may ramblings were of some help.

[niner]

Regarding astragalus, this article says telomerase activation is one of the factors that enables cancerous cells to achieve immortal status and reproduce so quickly in the human body. It suggests a telomerase supressing agent would be more valuable. Thoughts?
http://healthmad.com...side-effects/2/

It also suggests that there are two types of Astragalus supplements:

As an important aside, Astragalus root extract supplements are not to be confused with refined Astragalus membranaceus extracts now being marketed as telomere enhancing, and therefore supposedly life prolonging products, claims for which are based on natural telomerase activating extracts

So is Astragalus root not the one we want? Seems like most of the supplements are labeled as root extract. Some are labeled as both. For example, Solaray brand says "Astragalus(ASTRAGALUS MEMBRANACEUS)(ROOT EXTRACT)(GUARANTEED 70% {140 MG} POLYSACCHARIDES)".

I originally had Resveratrol in my list of possible supplements, but many people reported tendonitis as a side effect, and I don't need any more tendonitis, and things I've read suggests that too low of a dose is bad (worse than not taking any at all), too high of a dose is bad, and no one seems to know what the optimal dose is, so I'm going to stay away. The "too little is bad" thing scares me. I like sloping line dose curves, not U shaped dose curves.

When people talk about astragalus around here, it's usually in connection with its alleged telomerase activating properties. And yes, out of control telomerase is one of the things usually needed to confer immortality to cancer cells. So far there doesn't seem to be any evidence that the mild-to-nonexistent telomerase activation that astragalus compounds provide does anything to encourage cancer. And yes, telomerase inhibition is a generic cancer control strategy- Geron has some drugs in the clinic. Early results weren't impressive.

There are some forms of inflammation that resveratrol is quite good for, but I think you're wise to skip it. It is associated with tendinitis that is usually reversible on cessation, and it can cause GI problems in some people, which seems like a bad direction for you. As for problems with resveratrol doses that are too small, that sounds like nonsense, and I say that having followed resveratrol for the past half decade. Does that mean that red wine is bad for us? Epidemiology says otherwise.

[Kevnzworld]

I take MSM to reduce systemic inflammation (CRP , sed rate ). I don't have any specific inflammatory disease. I know some people with hip and joint pain that say it helps.

MSM
http://www.mendeley....y-responses-mu/

[Junk Master]

I'm a long time lifter too and for me, high dose(double dose) SAMe worked much better than MSM. The only negative was cost. If my elbow tendonitis gets too bad I'll reach for the ibuprofen and rest, making sure to ice AT LEAST 3 times a day for 20 min and continuing to take the anti-inflammatory for a week. The mistake I believe most people make with ibuprofen is to use it only temporarily, and at low doses. If you are going to use it, use it for a full course. Just make sure you don't make it a regular habit.

But if it's just a small flare up, I'll use a little DMSO before and after workouts, usually the roller bottle undiluted if my skin can handle it. If I develop a rash, I'll wait until it resolves and then use liquid DMSO diluted with distilled water-- very sparingly.

I'm interested to hear your thoughts on curcumin because I've considered adding that to avoid more ibuprofen use.

[ironfistx]

From doing research online it seems that if you want to use grape seed extract, buying bulk powder is the way to go.

In pill form is like 12g for $12.

In bulk form it's like 100g for $10.

Regarding its anti-inflammatory properties, here is what I read. No idea how credible the source is:

Grape Seed Extract, which has been used as a potent anti-inflammatory for generations of men who suffer from prostate cancer, works in a startling way against the cancer cells by preventing them from reproducing at a genetic level. The effect is epigenetic, meaning it is an outside factor that can influence gene expression. One marker scientists use to identify tumor cells is a change in a process called histone acetylation, and special proteins that assist the process are called histone acetyltransferases (or HATs, for short). Grape Seed Extract was able to interrupt the activity of the HATs in prostate cancer cells by 30-80%, and slowed down the amount of hormone-sensitive growth within the cell by decreasing the number of protein messengers in it. So not only did the Grape Seed Extract slow down the tumor cells, it actually kept them from growing.

<snip>

Source:S.Y. Park, Y.-H. Lee, K.-C. Choi, A.-R. Seong, H.-K. Choi, O.-H. Lee, H.-J. Hwang, and H.-G. Yoon (2011). “Grape Seed Extract Regulates Androgen Receptor-Mediated Transcription in Prostate Cancer Cells Through Potent Anti–Histone Acetyltransferase Activity.” Journal of Medicinal Food 14 (1/2) 2011, 9–16.

Source:
http://drjeffreytuck...ostate-fighter/

Also:

Byron's Comments:

Nutrients that help regulat NF-kappaB to reduce inflammation are very helpful to health.
Study Title:

Grape-seed procyanidins act as antiinflammatory agents in endotoxin-stimulated RAW 264.7 macrophages by inhibiting NFkB signaling pathway.
Study Abstract:

Procyanindin extract (PE) is a mixture of polyphenols, mainly procyanidins, obtained from grape seed with putative antiinflammatory activity. We evaluated the PE effect on RAW 264.7 macrophages stimulated with lipopolysaccharide plus interferon-gamma that show a rapid enhanced production of prostaglandin E2 (PGE2) and nitric oxide (NO). Our results demonstrated that PE significantly inhibited the overproduction of NO, dose and time dependently. PE caused a marked inhibition of PGE2 synthesis when administered during activation. Moreover, PE pretreatment diminished iNOS mRNA and protein amount dose dependently (10-65 microg/mL). PE (65 microg/mL) pretreatment inhibited NFkappaB (p65) translocation to nucleus by nearly 40%. Trimeric and longer oligomeric-rich procyanidin fractions from PE (5-30 microg/mL) inhibited iNOS expression but not the monomeric forms catechin and epicatechin. Thus, we show that the degree of polymerization is important in determining procyanidin effects. PE was considerably a more effective inhibitor of NO biosynthesis (IC50 = 50 microg/mL) in comparison to other antiinflammatories, such as aspirin (3 mM), indomethacin (20 microM), and dexamethasone (9 nM). In conclusion, PE modulates inflammatory response in activated macrophages by the inhibition of NO and PGE2 production, suppression of iNOS expression, and NFkB translocation. These results demonstrate an immunomodulatory role of grape seed procyanidins and thus a potential health-benefit in inflammatory conditions that exert an overproduction of NO and PGE2.
Study Information:

Terra X, Valls J, Vitrac X, Mérrillon JM, Arola L, Ardèvol A, Bladé C, Fernandez-Larrea J, Pujadas G, Salvadó J, Blay M. Grape-seed procyanidins act as antiinflammatory agents in endotoxin-stimulated RAW 264.7 macrophages by inhibiting NFkB signaling pathway. J Agric Food Chem. 2007 May 30;55(11):4357-65.
Department of Biochemistry and Biotechnology, Unitat d'Enologia del Centre de Referència en Tecnologia dels Aliments de la Generalitat de Catalunya, Universitat Rovira i Virgili, Tarragona, Spain..

Source:
http://www.wellnessr...ory_properties/

Again, no idea about if that's legit or not.

Some people report it makes them tired, however.

When people talk about astragalus around here, it's usually in connection with its alleged telomerase activating properties. And yes, out of control telomerase is one of the things usually needed to confer immortality to cancer cells. So far there doesn't seem to be any evidence that the mild-to-nonexistent telomerase activation that astragalus compounds provide does anything to encourage cancer. And yes, telomerase inhibition is a generic cancer control strategy- Geron has some drugs in the clinic. Early results weren't impressive.

There are some forms of inflammation that resveratrol is quite good for, but I think you're wise to skip it. It is associated with tendinitis that is usually reversible on cessation, and it can cause GI problems in some people, which seems like a bad direction for you. As for problems with resveratrol doses that are too small, that sounds like nonsense, and I say that having followed resveratrol for the past half decade. Does that mean that red wine is bad for us? Epidemiology says otherwise.

I'm interested in the living longer part.

And I agree, I'm going to skip the Resveratrol for a while, but I will probably continue to read about it and see what the new developments are.

I take MSM to reduce systemic inflammation (CRP , sed rate ). I don't have any specific inflammatory disease. I know some people with hip and joint pain that say it helps.

MSM
http://www.mendeley....y-responses-mu/

That was one of the other supplements I had on my "list of supplements to research."

My mom takes Glucosamine, Chondroitin, and MSM and says it helps her joints to the extent that she notices if she skips a day. She said it also helped their dog. I know there's no placebo with animals.

I'm a long time lifter too and for me, high dose(double dose) SAMe worked much better than MSM. The only negative was cost. If my elbow tendonitis gets too bad I'll reach for the ibuprofen and rest, making sure to ice AT LEAST 3 times a day for 20 min and continuing to take the anti-inflammatory for a week. The mistake I believe most people make with ibuprofen is to use it only temporarily, and at low doses. If you are going to use it, use it for a full course. Just make sure you don't make it a regular habit.

But if it's just a small flare up, I'll use a little DMSO before and after workouts, usually the roller bottle undiluted if my skin can handle it. If I develop a rash, I'll wait until it resolves and then use liquid DMSO diluted with distilled water-- very sparingly.

I'm interested to hear your thoughts on curcumin because I've considered adding that to avoid more ibuprofen use.

I don't like to take Iburpofen too much because it can mess with your stomach. However, did hear that taking it with Taurine can protect your stomach?

Tell me about DMSO. I actually have some but I've been afraid to use it. I got a little bottle of the liquid stuff. Does it work well for you?

Regarding ice massage, yes, that's one of my favorites!

[nowayout]

Your assumption that the cause is mechanical may not be correct. Certain gastrointestinal conditions go together with various kinds of inflammatory arthritis affecting joints/tendons. Infections can also trigger inflammatory arthritis that lingers. If you have something like that, it should be treated with more than supplements. So it may be a good thing to see a rheumatologist to rule out auto-inflammatory causes for your tendon pain.

Edited by viveutvivas, 02 October 2012 - 11:35 PM.

[niner]

From doing research online it seems that if you want to use grape seed extract, buying bulk powder is the way to go.

In pill form is like 12g for $12.

In bulk form it's like 100g for $10.

TruNature brand at Costco is a pretty good deal. $17.50 for 300 caps, 100mg GSE. That's $0.58/g. It contains a small amount of resveratrol, only 15mg, probably not enough to cause any problems. Swanson has plain capped GSE for $0.71/g.

[stepover]

I know of only one way to permanently treat tendon problems, and that's not oral. Get some transdermal nitric oxide. Prescription only but very common (used for high blood pressure) and pretty safe. See Evidence on the Effectiveness of Topical Nitroglycerin in the Treatment of Tendinopathies: A Systematic Review and Meta-Analysis (http://www.archives-...0121-8/abstract). There's lots of literature on it. Another is Using nitric oxide to treat tendinopathy.

I personally used this with great effectiveness, and also gave it to my brother. Best on upper extremities.

[#1stunna]

1 year ago I got bicep tendonitis and have been battling it since. Had to quit judo and jiu jitsu 5 months ago and can only lift on other muscle groups.

I have been taking tumeric/curcumin lately but cannot tell if it helps, nsaids like aleve help minimally. Ice helps most but it returns with exercise.

I am starting astym treatment soon so I can get back to my hobbies I love. Look into astym

http://www.astym.com/Main

[#1stunna]

I can now say astym is the most effective thing i found for any kind of soft tissue damage, it is miraculous how much it has helped

Edited by #1stunna, 01 December 2012 - 03:31 AM.