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Dihexa: "it would take 10 million times as much BDNF to get as much new synapse formation as Dihexa."


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#61 Xenix

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 10:30 AM

Please do not insult my intelligence.


Sorry, I didn't want to insult you. I think you have to admit that what you are doing is somewhat hardcore, so please be tolerant when you get unexpected reactions.

Yes, and I have considered the consequences of such experimentation. Despite the warnings and despite possible cancerous side effects, I have gone through with it. I have fully considered the consequences and fully accept them.


How could you have fully considered the consequences when even the short term physiological effects of Dihexa on humans is largely unknown?
...
But what is it you hope to achieve through this trial that can't wait a year or two for further human testing to be done?


I think what he means is that he understands the possibility of consequential side effects, if he doesn't know what these side effects will be exactly.

There is no guarantee that this compound, as promising as it may seem, will even make it past clinical trials:

The U.S. FDA, and its corollary agencies abroad, requires that a potential therapy’s safety and efficacy be tested extensively in a large group of human volunteers before it can receive approval to be manufactured and made available to patients. Yet clinical testing can — and often does — fail because not enough people volunteer. Without sufficient numbers of trial participants, the drug development process stalls and a trial must be repeated, scaled back or, even worse, the potential new therapy is abandoned. This lengthens the time it takes for new treatments to come to market. No amount of funding or other resources can compensate for the lack of clinical research volunteers.


Further, from what I understand, the research team at WSU is having a hard time even getting initial required funding - one million dollars.

Edited by Xenix, 16 March 2013 - 10:43 AM.

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#62 Logic

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 10:41 AM

Yes, and I have considered the consequences of such experimentation. Despite the warnings and despite possible cancerous side effects, I have gone through with it. I have fully considered the consequences and fully accept them.


I take the above to mean that nootlyinclinded has already taken a dose?
I hope we hear from him soon!?

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#63 Xenix

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 10:53 AM

My advice to anyone thinking about undertaking anything like this would be to get a CT or MRI check up every couple of months.
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#64 kylehere

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 06:29 PM

Please do not insult my intelligence.


Sorry, I didn't want to insult you. I think you have to admit that what you are doing is somewhat hardcore, so please be tolerant when you get unexpected reactions.

Yes, and I have considered the consequences of such experimentation. Despite the warnings and despite possible cancerous side effects, I have gone through with it. I have fully considered the consequences and fully accept them.


Have you done any tests or noticed any developments? Any news at all?

#65 hadora

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 05:53 AM

I hope he is not a troll :) as this is a very interesting peptide

#66 Izan

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 09:50 PM

i also think this guys is a troll. such a shame, because dihexa has a lot of potential.

#67 nootlyinclinded

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 01:33 AM

No,
I am not a troll. If anyone would like, I can PM them the tracking number for this item. Also, I have ordered cerebrolysin in the past and also have tracking numbers for those as well. Yes, I have tried 1 10mg dose and have proceeded with 2 additional 5mg doses. I have not noticed any such developments so far.
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#68 telight

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 11:46 AM

No,
I am not a troll. If anyone would like, I can PM them the tracking number for this item. Also, I have ordered cerebrolysin in the past and also have tracking numbers for those as well. Yes, I have tried 1 10mg dose and have proceeded with 2 additional 5mg doses. I have not noticed any such developments so far.


Maybe you should try ingesting the drug, it was developed to be orally bioavaliable. I am under the impression that you are IMing it, you should try and eat some if you are in fact IMing it.

#69 nootlyinclinded

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 12:40 PM

I understand the drug was made orally bioavailable but I could not find rates of bioavailability via oral ingestion so I thought I'd increase the effectiveness by IMing it but that turned out to be a total failure. My muscle twitched erratically while IMing dihexa which had never happened before while IMing cerebrolysin. I pulled out after IMing an extremely insignificant ammount and decided just to go with oral ingestation. I don't really know how to prepare a hydrophobic peptide for injection but maybe someone on these forums may provide me with some knowledge.

#70 hadora

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 04:50 PM

I understand the drug was made orally bioavailable but I could not find rates of bioavailability via oral ingestion so I thought I'd increase the effectiveness by IMing it but that turned out to be a total failure. My muscle twitched erratically while IMing dihexa which had never happened before while IMing cerebrolysin. I pulled out after IMing an extremely insignificant ammount and decided just to go with oral ingestation. I don't really know how to prepare a hydrophobic peptide for injection but maybe someone on these forums may provide me with some knowledge.



how much it costed you to synthesize it ? you don't need to give the exact price

Edited by hadora, 18 March 2013 - 05:05 PM.


#71 nootlyinclinded

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 05:09 PM

Around $500.

#72 boomer11

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 03:35 AM

Dude your my hero. Hopefully you become the smartest man in the world. Can't wait to see how this turns out.

Cheers
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#73 Bron

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 02:43 PM

Animal to animal, say rat to human, dosing requires a conversion.

rule of thumb for rat to human dosage conversion is to multiply the rat dosage by 0.162 (37/6). We need a lot less per kg.

http://www.fda.gov/d...s/UCM078932.pdf


20*.162 = 3.24

or

about 3mg, the dose the OP is taking

My advice to anyone thinking about undertaking anything like this would be to get a CT or MRI check up every couple of months.


Good luck finding a doctor who is going to give you a CT scan every few months because you are taking an experimental nootropic.

#74 megatron

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 12:22 PM

Nootlyinclinded, anything happening yet?

#75 hellbounddevildog

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 05:42 AM

Awesome, yet scary. Can't wait to here some more results.
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#76 nootlyinclinded

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 07:52 AM

I'm not sure if I can attest this to the dihexa, but for the past few days, I've had this feeling of restlessness. I feel that for some odd reason that the progress of my life is in stagnation. There's this feeling or some sort of motivation that makes me want to go out and do more.

#77 Major Legend

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 09:52 AM

I'm not sure if I can attest this to the dihexa, but for the past few days, I've had this feeling of restlessness. I feel that for some odd reason that the progress of my life is in stagnation. There's this feeling or some sort of motivation that makes me want to go out and do more.


Sounds awfully like the initial stage of the noopept "burn out", I wonder if this restlessness will die off in the next few days, though technically Dihexa would be many many many more times more powerful than Noopept.

Edited by Major Legend, 22 March 2013 - 09:52 AM.


#78 Xenix

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 11:48 AM

I've been doing 100mg intranasal (railing) doses/day of Dihexa for the past few days. This stuff is pretty intense.
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#79 Olon

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 12:35 PM

This stuff is pretty intense.

In what sense?

#80 Xenix

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 02:23 PM

This stuff is pretty intense.

In what sense?


No matter what I study, I can see patterns. I see the gestalt, the melody within the notes, in everything: mathematics and science, art and music, psychology and sociology. As I read the texts, I can think only that the authors are plodding along from one point to the next, groping for connections that they can't see. They're like a crowd of people unable to read music, peering at the score for a Bach sonata, trying to explain how one note leads to another.

As glorious as these patterns are, they also whet my appetite for more. There are other patterns waiting to be discovered, gestalts of another scale entirely. With respect to those, I'm blind myself; all my sonatas are just isolated data points by comparison. I have no idea what form such gestalts might assume, but that'll come in time. I want to find them, and comprehend them. I want this more than anything I've ever wanted before.

The quotidian patterns of society are revealed without my making effort. I walk down the street, watching people go about their business, and though not a word is spoken, the subtext is conspicuous. A young couple strolls by, the adoration of one bouncing off the tolerance of the other. Apprehension flickers and becomes steady as a businessman, fearful of his supervisor, begins to doubt a decision he made earlier today. A woman wears a mantle of simulated sophistication, but it slips when it brushes past the genuine article.

As always, the roles one plays become recognizable only with greater maturity. To me, these people seem like children on a playground; I'm amused by their earnestness, and embarassed to remember myself doing those same things. Their activities are appropriate for them, but I couldn't bear to participate now; when I became a man, I put away childish things. I will deal with the world of normal humans only as needed to support myself.

My sensitivity to the body language of others has increased to the point that I can make observations without sight or sound: I can smell the pheromones exuded by skin. To an extent, my muscles can even detect the tension within, perhaps by their electric field. These channels can't convey precise information, but the impressions I receive provide ample basis for extrapolation; they add texture to the web.

Normal humans may detect these emanations subliminally. I'll work on becoming more attuned to them; then perhaps I can try consciously controlling my own expressions.

The sign language of emotion I once knew has been replaced by a matrix of interrelated equations. Lines of force twist and elongate between people, objects, institutions, ideas. The individuals are tragically like marionettes, independently animate but bound by a web they choose not to see; they could resist if they wished, but so few of them do.

I'm designing a new language. I've reached the limits of conventional languages, and now they frustrate my attempts to progress further. They lack the power to express concepts that I need, and even in their own domain, they're imprecise and unwieldy. They're hardly fit for speech, let alone thought.

I'm writing part of an extended poem, as an experiment; after I've finished one canto, I'll be able to choose an approach for integrating the patterns within all the arts. I'm employing six modern and four ancient languages; they include most of the significant worldviews of human civilization. Each one provides different shades of meaning and poetic effects; some of the juxtapositions are delightful. Each line of the poem contains neologisms, born by extruding words through the declensions of another language. If I were to complete the entire piece, it could be thought of Finnegans Wake multiplied by Pound's Cantos.

I view the tapestry of human knowledge from a broader perspective than anyone ever has before; I can fill gaps in the design where scholars never even noticed a lack, and enrich the texture in places that they felt were complete.

The natural sciences have the clearest patterns. Physics admits of a lovely unification, not just at the level of fundamental forces, but when considering its extent and implications. Classifications like "optics" or "thermodynamics" are just straitjackets, preventing physicists from seeing countless intersections. Even putting aside aesthetics, the practical applications that have been overlooked are legion; years ago engineers could have been artifically generating spherically symmetric gravity fields.

I know my body afresh, as if it were an amputee's stump suddenly replaced by a watchmaker's hand. Controlling my voluntary muscles is trivial; I have inhuman coordination. Skills that normally require thousands of repetitions to develop, I can learn in two or three. I find a video with a shot of a pianist's hands playing, and before long I can duplicate his finger movements without a keyboard in front of me. Selective contraction and relaxation of muscles improve my strength and flexibility. Muscular response time is thirty-five milliseconds, for conscious or reflex action. Learning acrobatics and martial arts would require little training.

I have somatic awareness of kidney function, nutrient absorption, glandular secretions. I am even conscious of the role that neurotransmitters play in my thoughts. This state of consciousness involves mental activity more intense than in any epinephrine-boosted stress situation; part of my mind is maintaining a condition that would kill a normal mind and body within minutes. As I adjust the programming of my mind, I experience the ebb and flow of all the substances that trigger my emotional reactions, boost my attention, or subtly shape my attitudes.
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#81 stablemind

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 02:44 PM

This stuff is pretty intense.

In what sense?


No matter what I study, I can see patterns. I see the gestalt, the melody within the notes, in everything: mathematics and science, art and music, psychology and sociology. As I read the texts, I can think only that the authors are plodding along from one point to the next, groping for connections that they can't see. They're like a crowd of people unable to read music, peering at the score for a Bach sonata, trying to explain how one note leads to another.

As glorious as these patterns are, they also whet my appetite for more. There are other patterns waiting to be discovered, gestalts of another scale entirely. With respect to those, I'm blind myself; all my sonatas are just isolated data points by comparison. I have no idea what form such gestalts might assume, but that'll come in time. I want to find them, and comprehend them. I want this more than anything I've ever wanted before.

The quotidian patterns of society are revealed without my making effort. I walk down the street, watching people go about their business, and though not a word is spoken, the subtext is conspicuous. A young couple strolls by, the adoration of one bouncing off the tolerance of the other. Apprehension flickers and becomes steady as a businessman, fearful of his supervisor, begins to doubt a decision he made earlier today. A woman wears a mantle of simulated sophistication, but it slips when it brushes past the genuine article.

As always, the roles one plays become recognizable only with greater maturity. To me, these people seem like children on a playground; I'm amused by their earnestness, and embarassed to remember myself doing those same things. Their activities are appropriate for them, but I couldn't bear to participate now; when I became a man, I put away childish things. I will deal with the world of normal humans only as needed to support myself.

My sensitivity to the body language of others has increased to the point that I can make observations without sight or sound: I can smell the pheromones exuded by skin. To an extent, my muscles can even detect the tension within, perhaps by their electric field. These channels can't convey precise information, but the impressions I receive provide ample basis for extrapolation; they add texture to the web.

Normal humans may detect these emanations subliminally. I'll work on becoming more attuned to them; then perhaps I can try consciously controlling my own expressions.

The sign language of emotion I once knew has been replaced by a matrix of interrelated equations. Lines of force twist and elongate between people, objects, institutions, ideas. The individuals are tragically like marionettes, independently animate but bound by a web they choose not to see; they could resist if they wished, but so few of them do.

I'm designing a new language. I've reached the limits of conventional languages, and now they frustrate my attempts to progress further. They lack the power to express concepts that I need, and even in their own domain, they're imprecise and unwieldy. They're hardly fit for speech, let alone thought.

I'm writing part of an extended poem, as an experiment; after I've finished one canto, I'll be able to choose an approach for integrating the patterns within all the arts. I'm employing six modern and four ancient languages; they include most of the significant worldviews of human civilization. Each one provides different shades of meaning and poetic effects; some of the juxtapositions are delightful. Each line of the poem contains neologisms, born by extruding words through the declensions of another language. If I were to complete the entire piece, it could be thought of Finnegans Wake multiplied by Pound's Cantos.

I view the tapestry of human knowledge from a broader perspective than anyone ever has before; I can fill gaps in the design where scholars never even noticed a lack, and enrich the texture in places that they felt were complete.

The natural sciences have the clearest patterns. Physics admits of a lovely unification, not just at the level of fundamental forces, but when considering its extent and implications. Classifications like "optics" or "thermodynamics" are just straitjackets, preventing physicists from seeing countless intersections. Even putting aside aesthetics, the practical applications that have been overlooked are legion; years ago engineers could have been artifically generating spherically symmetric gravity fields.

I know my body afresh, as if it were an amputee's stump suddenly replaced by a watchmaker's hand. Controlling my voluntary muscles is trivial; I have inhuman coordination. Skills that normally require thousands of repetitions to develop, I can learn in two or three. I find a video with a shot of a pianist's hands playing, and before long I can duplicate his finger movements without a keyboard in front of me. Selective contraction and relaxation of muscles improve my strength and flexibility. Muscular response time is thirty-five milliseconds, for conscious or reflex action. Learning acrobatics and martial arts would require little training.

I have somatic awareness of kidney function, nutrient absorption, glandular secretions. I am even conscious of the role that neurotransmitters play in my thoughts. This state of consciousness involves mental activity more intense than in any epinephrine-boosted stress situation; part of my mind is maintaining a condition that would kill a normal mind and body within minutes. As I adjust the programming of my mind, I experience the ebb and flow of all the substances that trigger my emotional reactions, boost my attention, or subtly shape my attitudes.


How do you compare your current state with your pre-Dihexa state?

#82 kylehere

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 03:58 PM

How do you compare your current state with your pre-Dihexa state?


He's trolling, and that's all copypasta.
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#83 IA87

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 04:11 PM

Haha. For a second I almost believed Xenix had taken Dihexa and had pronounced effects, as his way with words signals a higher intellect. Alas, Kylehere is correct. A quick google search of some of Xenix's sentences (e.g., https://www.google.c...chrome&ie=UTF-8) reveals that none of this is his own. Indeed, they all come from Ted Chiang's "Understand."

Edit: I thank Xenix for his plagiarism. This short story, Understand, looks to be very interesting. I think this forum will appreciate it, also. Take a quick scan of the wikipedia entry for it: http://en.wikipedia....derstand_(story).

Edited by IA87, 22 March 2013 - 04:18 PM.

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#84 Izan

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 04:14 PM

maybe it's the same moron who derailed the c16 pkr inhibitor thread. dihexa and c16 are both potentially awesome substances, i really don't know why the trolls decide to derail both those threads.

#85 Reformed-Redan

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 04:20 PM

Its a troll or some BPD with mania.
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#86 IA87

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 04:24 PM

Well, to be honest it is not such a bad thing that people attempt to troll. It is tempting to take anecdotes seriously, implicitly trusting their source. It is vital that we become skilled at identifying potentially legitimate claims from purposefully misleading ones, and such trolls as Xenix help us do this. Imagine a world where we rarely had to thoroughly investigate claims, and where one person or a small group of people realize this and exploit it for their own gain. They would make bank. We would be none the wiser. We must, therefore, think hard on the plausibility of both evidence provided by the scientific community and anecdotes given by members of this (and other) forums.

Edit: This brings to my mind a question that I have had for some time now, namely, Why do people so rarely present cryptographically timestamped screenshots of before-and-after results for, say, Dual-n-back? We reach a plateau for most of these cognitive tests fairly quickly. For example, I have been at dual-10-back for so long now that I have completely given up the game. If I were to come back, reach my plateau (and be satisfied that I cannot make any progress), then take a nootropic that purportedly increases working memory, a sudden and consistent increase to dual-12-back would be good evidence that this nootropic does something. Further, I could graph the results and demonstrate that they were not forged. This is not difficult to do, yet I see that no one really does it. Why not? My reason for not having posted such things is obvious: no such nootropic has had effects on me that were measurable via any test. Surely, however, if the day comes when I find a nootropic that does have a pronounced effect, I will not just jump into this forum and provide easily forged anecdotal evidence.

Edited by IA87, 22 March 2013 - 04:33 PM.

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#87 IA87

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 04:46 PM

A bit more on how we could share results and trust that they are unforged and significant.

We need one server that will host a small battery of tests that do not show sustained practice-based improvements over periods of many months. I would nominate dual-n-back, matrix rotation, and most reaction time tests for this purpose. It would be nice to find a good way to test improvements in long term memory, but I do not know how this can be achieved in a way where the results can be trusted. Anyway, as long as the server is secured and the administrator is trustworthy (I would nominate gwern for this position), we can trust that the results will be legitimate. Now all we need is an algorithm that operates on test data to determine (a) when a plateau has been reached and (b) when data becomes statistically significant. I will not go into the details of such an algorithm at this time, but I will say that it is straightforward to implement and the math behind it can be seen in any reputable statistics-based research paper. To make results available to the public, one needs only to share a link to their results page.

I would not at all be surprised if something like the above already exists. If so, the job is even easier: just make use of the damned website. Instead of constantly fuddling around with dozens of nootropics, the efficacy of which we determine first through unreliable anecdotes, we can do more rigorous testing in accordance with a proven methodology and demonstrate to ourselves that the nootropics are truly doing something. Further, this can be demonstrated to others to better inform them of which nootropics show real promise. This method is not in the same league as a double-blind experiment with control and target groups, of course, but it is far better than what we do now. It is also easy and can be done much more quickly than any large scale study. Why don't we see more people doing this?
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#88 megatron

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 05:26 PM

Well, to be honest it is not such a bad thing that people attempt to troll. It is tempting to take anecdotes seriously, implicitly trusting their source. It is vital that we become skilled at identifying potentially legitimate claims from purposefully misleading ones, and such trolls as Xenix help us do this. Imagine a world where we rarely had to thoroughly investigate claims, and where one person or a small group of people realize this and exploit it for their own gain. They would make bank. We would be none the wiser. We must, therefore, think hard on the plausibility of both evidence provided by the scientific community and anecdotes given by members of this (and other) forums.

Edit: This brings to my mind a question that I have had for some time now, namely, Why do people so rarely present cryptographically timestamped screenshots of before-and-after results for, say, Dual-n-back? We reach a plateau for most of these cognitive tests fairly quickly. For example, I have been at dual-10-back for so long now that I have completely given up the game. If I were to come back, reach my plateau (and be satisfied that I cannot make any progress), then take a nootropic that purportedly increases working memory, a sudden and consistent increase to dual-12-back would be good evidence that this nootropic does something. Further, I could graph the results and demonstrate that they were not forged. This is not difficult to do, yet I see that no one really does it. Why not? My reason for not having posted such things is obvious: no such nootropic has had effects on me that were measurable via any test. Surely, however, if the day comes when I find a nootropic that does have a pronounced effect, I will not just jump into this forum and provide easily forged anecdotal evidence.


Some of this could be explained by nootropics simply not really working, so there's no progress to present. I would be happy to do what you've mentioned, but why do it when nothing has changed? The racetams are bunk! Noopept is bullshit. The CILTEP stack doesn't work. Cerebrolysin hasn't done anything yet...
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#89 hadora

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 06:07 PM

I've been doing 100mg intranasal (railing) doses/day of Dihexa for the past few days. This stuff is pretty intense.


if you put 500 mg deep in your anus you will develop telekinetic abilities
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#90 Reformed-Redan

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 06:49 PM

What a bunch of horseshit. Pfft.
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