1569 replies to this topic

[sparkk51]

If I had a ton of this stuff and none of you guys had to put money upfront for a group buy, how much would you be willing to pay per gram? Rather, if you could send money and receive it within 3 days, how much would you pay?

Around $100 per gram I guess. It's difficult to say without being sure whether any positive effects would be permanent or not. if they would be, I'd probably use Dihexia in conjuction with other unique nootropics such as piracetam to help facilitate neuronal growth in specific areas of the brain (such as the corpus callosum which is stimulated by piracetam).

Of course, this is completely theoretical.

Edited by sparkk51, 02 September 2013 - 12:11 AM.

[Absent]

If I had a ton of this stuff and none of you guys had to put money upfront for a group buy, how much would you be willing to pay per gram? Rather, if you could send money and receive it within 3 days, how much would you pay?

Around $100 per gram I guess. It's difficult to say without being sure whether any positive effects would be permanent or not. if they would be, I'd probably use Dihexia in conjuction with other unique nootropics such as piracetam to help facilitate neuronal growth in specific areas of the brain (such as the corpus callosum which is stimulated by piracetam).

Of course, this is completely theoretical.

Sorry but that price is way too low for what I just proposed. Based off the quotes a few pages back...

http://www.longecity...post__p__608769

10grams of Dihexa will cost 5,000USD

OR 50g for 9,500
OR 100g for around 14k
OR 1kg for 27-30k

If I get a minimum of 50g, spending around 9.5k, I would not be selling it any less than $250 per gram. If I got 100g, it would be $200 per gram at a gram by gram rate. I would go and spend 30k on a kg of the stuff which would allow me to sell it at roughly $80 per gram, but I seriously doubt there would be that many people buy this stuff. Maybe if more experimenting is done with it. Based on the current demand I would buy no more than 50g, at which I would have to sell it for $250/g as previously stated. I have plenty of money to invest in this, but I would be taking a major risk and because I am taking that risk I would expect to profit a little, which is just simple economics. Doing it this way, everyone would pay about $60 higher per gram, but they would receive it immediately as I would have it on stock(in the USA)... versus sending $190 to a stranger and not seeing any product for a month or so.

Or you all can do a group buy somehow, but you would still be paying about $250 per gram, unless you can somehow get enough people to put 27k forth for 1kg... but yeah... good luck with that.

Do we even know if this stuff actually has any effect on human learning. Do we even know if new Synapse formation is even a good thing? Yes it is important for memory formation, but the brain also does a lot of fucked up things that we don't really enjoy that also form new synapses. Has there been human trials with this stuff?

Edited by Siro, 02 September 2013 - 12:32 AM.

[celebes]

If you proved what you were selling was actually Dihexa this could be an option, but it would help if you were less of a douche about it. You realise we would be sending $260 to a stranger and not still getting any product for a month minimum, right?

Edited by celebes, 02 September 2013 - 05:31 AM.

[Xenix]

If I had a ton of this stuff and none of you guys had to put money upfront for a group buy, how much would you be willing to pay per gram? Rather, if you could send money and receive it within 3 days, how much would you pay?

Sounds like you've got quite a bit of money to throw around. If you do go through with it I would definitely be interested, but we would at least require that you have someone run an NMR analysis on what you have first, so that we can determine what you have would resemble what Dihexa should probably look like. I know of a chemist who could hopefully run this analysis for free, or a (relatively) small fee ($80-200)

[Absent]

If you proved what you were selling was actually Dihexa this could be an option, but it would help if you were less of a douche about it. You realise we would be sending $260 to a stranger and not still getting any product for a month minimum, right?

Proving that I actually have Dihexa would be important to me too, as I would be taking it myself. What do you mean you would not get product for a month minimum? As soon as I have it I would be able to send it out priority mail, which takes 3 days to deliver at most usually for domestic USA. On a side note, I run a small Vitamin and Supplement production company, so I wouldn't really call myself some random individual.

I'm not being a douche about it, I'm just being upfront and honest. $30,000, let alone the minimum $9500 is a very large investment for a research chemical(which is what it is) coming from a potentially unknown lab which I have never ordered from, let alone we don't even know the usefulness of Dihexa.

If I had a ton of this stuff and none of you guys had to put money upfront for a group buy, how much would you be willing to pay per gram? Rather, if you could send money and receive it within 3 days, how much would you pay?

Sounds like you've got quite a bit of money to throw around. If you do go through with it I would definitely be interested, but we would at least require that you have someone run an NMR analysis on what you have first, so that we can determine what you have would resemble what Dihexa should probably look like. I know of a chemist who could hopefully run this analysis for free, or a (relatively) small fee ($80-200)

Analysis isn't what I am worried about. I'm fairly confident a reputable manufacturer for it can be located. My worry is since so few people have tried this, if any at all, what if it doesn't work, and a ton of people back down? Then would I be stuck with a hole in my pocket and a potentially large investment?

Based on the demand in this thread alone, I don't even think I could move 50g of this stuff in any decent amount of time considering the price it would have to be sold for, so I'm still not even sure if I want to do this.

[celebes]

It was the tone more than the profit margin, which is reasonable.

And I mean it would take a month or so for you to get it from a supplier as well, unless you're ready to synth it yourself today.

Edited by celebes, 02 September 2013 - 03:31 PM.

[Absent]

Yes, it would take time for me to get it, but the entire point of me getting it is I would not expect any money upfront from anyone. With a group buy you have to give your money to some random individual and then wait for a month and hope you didn't get ripped out. If I bought a bulk amount with my own money I could ship it out from within the USA as soon as a person orders it, through whichever mail they desire, over night, priority, etc, at their expense.... but lets not get too far ahead of ourselves here.

I'm more inclined to order some if somebody will help obtain and put a list together of quotes from reputable labs. I'm pretty busy most of my day and this being a sort of side project I don't have too much time to dedicate to contacting random labs, I just have the resources. Typically I wouldn't do an investment like this since the profit margin is pretty small, at least for what I am used to, but since I want to try it myself I am willing to go for it. I run a private research facility here in NC with a number of people[friends] willing to volunteer to try it out with various cognitive tests and what not. Though, we are not officially licensed for official research so our tests would all be done as a pure recreational science experience, which there isn't any laws against . I look forward to seeing how this substance could possibly be used in humans. Official research labs can't morally experiment on human test subjects, though if it is all consensual and recreational and various tests and data are taken along the way, then that is a different matter, the difference being the latter results would not have publishability.

If somebody wants to compile a list of resources to help get this thing started then lets do it!

[Xenix]

Jabowery raised a VERY important point that I missed (apologies to Jawbowery). I was calculating the HED for Dihexa incorrectly.

Look at this thread (by Science Guy) which explains how the human equivilent dose is calculated: http://www.longecity...nimal-to-human/

HED (mg/kg) = Animal Dose (mg/kg) x [Animal Km / Human Km]

Human Km = 37
Mouse Km = 3
Rat Km = 6

EXAMPLE:

Say a STUDY conducted on MICE reports that a dosage of 5mg/kg was used; what is the HED?

By calculation, the HUMAN EQUIVALENT DOSE (HED) = 5 x [3 / 37] = 0.405 mg/kg

So Dihexa's HED calculation = 2 * 6.2 / 37 = 0.33mg

For some incredibly stupid and ignorant reason on my own behalf, I was multiplying 0.335mg by 90kg (my bodyweight) to get a 30mg/dose, which I roughly inflated to 40kg to account for my extra bodyweight.

***This was completely wrong.***

If my new corrections are right, Dihexa's HED should be less than half a milligram (0.335mg) per dose - which is quite scary, because I was taking Dihexa at 40mg doses for several days. Which is almost 120 times the HED. I haven't noticed any adverse effects, though.

Thank you very much for raising this to my attention, Jabowery. I apologise to everyone for my vast ignorance and stupidity in overlooking this simple fact.

***So, if this is right, 1 gram should provide almost 3,000 doses (1,000mg / 0.335mg)***

[Absent]

An active dose is approximately 0.335mg? So less than one mg? And you didn't notice any adverse effects at 40mg? If that's the case then that would mean an active dose would cost less than 10 cents per day. That's cheaper than most supplements a lot of folks here take.

The real question is did you notice any effects at all from taking it daily? Enhanced memory? Problem solving abilities? Cognition? Mental Speed? Clarity? Dreams? Relaxation/Sleep?

Edited by Siro, 02 September 2013 - 05:58 PM.

[Xenix]

Please double-check it to make sure my calculations are correct.

I explained my findings a few pages back on this thread. Slightly more vivid dreams... in terms of the other stuff... nothing I could really pass off as being anything more than placebo.

***But I stopped taking it because it was causing issues with my vision (blurriness and itchy eyes) after a few days of taking it at 40mg.

Maybe the (potentially) massive over-dosing I was doing were causing these side effects. Hopefully I have not inflicted permanent damage upon myself.

I was also unsure whether my samples contained impurities, and if the batch of 'Dihexa' I had synthesized was actually Dihexa. My batch will hopefully be undergoing NMR analysis soon.

These side effects and uncertainties were the reasons why I stopped taking Dihexa after a few days. I will resume my trial (I still have about 1.5 grams left) with a much, MUCH smaller dosage tomorrow.

Edited by Xenix, 02 September 2013 - 06:13 PM.

[Izan]

Jabowery raised a VERY important point that I missed (apologies to Jawbowery). I was calculating the HED for Dihexa incorrectly.

Look at this thread (by Science Guy) which explains how the human equivilent dose is calculated: http://www.longecity...nimal-to-human/

HED (mg/kg) = Animal Dose (mg/kg) x [Animal Km / Human Km]

Human Km = 37
Mouse Km = 3
Rat Km = 6

EXAMPLE:

Say a STUDY conducted on MICE reports that a dosage of 5mg/kg was used; what is the HED?

By calculation, the HUMAN EQUIVALENT DOSE (HED) = 5 x [3 / 37] = 0.405 mg/kg

So Dihexa's HED calculation = 2 * 6.2 / 37 = 0.33mg

For some incredibly stupid and ignorant reason on my own behalf, I was multiplying 0.335mg by 90kg (my bodyweight) to get a 30mg/dose, which I roughly inflated to 40kg to account for my extra bodyweight.

***This was completely wrong.***

If my new corrections are right, Dihexa's HED should be less than half a milligram (0.335mg) per dose - which is quite scary, because I was taking Dihexa at 40mg doses for several days. Which is almost 120 times the HED. I haven't noticed any adverse effects, though.

Thank you very much for raising this to my attention, Jabowery. I apologise to everyone for my vast ignorance and stupidity in overlooking this simple fact.

***So, if this is right, 1 gram should provide almost 3,000 doses (1,000mg / 0.335mg)***

is it possible you got bunk dihexa?

[Xenix]

That is definitely a possibility. But I ordered it from two different manufacturers who both sent me extremely similar MS analysis results. Maybe they used the exact same synthesizing techniques, I don't know. A chemist on this board called Erebus analysed a sample of my 'Dihexa' (the results are a few pages back) and claims that what I have is, most likely, Dihexa.

I'm sure you can understand how frustrating this has been for me.

[Izan]

i understand xenix.

[Absent]

I mean it could also just possibly not be the miracle substance we all hoped for. There is no single substance that will give a person perfect mental functioning, perfect memory, etc. It is physically and chemically impossible. Most brain functions are very complex and never rely on a single mechanism. On top of that, even if all the involved mechanisms because perfect in their efficiency, there is still a part of the brain needing that execution pathway to be set up/developed/ and programmed/layed out correctly.

[Hebbeh]

Jabowery raised a VERY important point that I missed (apologies to Jawbowery). I was calculating the HED for Dihexa incorrectly.

Look at this thread (by Science Guy) which explains how the human equivilent dose is calculated: http://www.longecity...nimal-to-human/

HED (mg/kg) = Animal Dose (mg/kg) x [Animal Km / Human Km]

Human Km = 37
Mouse Km = 3
Rat Km = 6

EXAMPLE:

Say a STUDY conducted on MICE reports that a dosage of 5mg/kg was used; what is the HED?

By calculation, the HUMAN EQUIVALENT DOSE (HED) = 5 x [3 / 37] = 0.405 mg/kg

So Dihexa's HED calculation = 2 * 6.2 / 37 = 0.33mg

For some incredibly stupid and ignorant reason on my own behalf, I was multiplying 0.335mg by 90kg (my bodyweight) to get a 30mg/dose, which I roughly inflated to 40kg to account for my extra bodyweight.

***This was completely wrong.***

If my new corrections are right, Dihexa's HED should be less than half a milligram (0.335mg) per dose - which is quite scary, because I was taking Dihexa at 40mg doses for several days. Which is almost 120 times the HED. I haven't noticed any adverse effects, though.

Thank you very much for raising this to my attention, Jabowery. I apologise to everyone for my vast ignorance and stupidity in overlooking this simple fact.

***So, if this is right, 1 gram should provide almost 3,000 doses (1,000mg / 0.335mg)***

I thought the rat dosage was 10-20 mg/kg...
which would be 10 mg/kg x [6 / 37] x your weight in kg
= 1.62 mg/kg x your weight in kg (90kg)
= 146 mg

Anyway, the formula converts to HED mg/kg and then you have to multiply that by your weight in kg.

Edited by Hebbeh, 02 September 2013 - 06:52 PM.

[OpaqueMind]

What happened to the concerns about carcinogenicity with this substance? Was that not floated earlier in the thread as a real possibility?

[Xenix]

I thought the rat dosage was 10-20 mg/kg...
which would be 10 mg/kg x [6 / 37] x your weight in kg
= 1.62 mg/kg x your weight in kg (90kg)
= 146 mg

Anyway, the formula converts to HED mg/kg and then you have to multiply that by your weight in kg.

I read somewhere that they did intravenous injections of up to 10mg/kg. But here: http://www.sumobrain...2012138599.html

It states: "Dihexa was given orally 1.25 mg/kg/day (low dose) and 2 mg/kg/day (high dose)."

Are you sure about the step involving multiplying it by your bodyweight? That is what I did originally, but based on Science Guy's thread I thought otherwise.

Also here: http://suppversity.b...ivalen.html?m=1

HED(1000mg/kg in rats) = 1000mg/kg * (6 kg/m² : 37kg/m²) = 162mg

the amount of pepper corns you would have to use to achieve the "same effect" in human beings.

My understanding is that rats have a much higher metabolism rate (pound for pound) than humans, which is why humans require smaller dosages than rats. I could be wrong here. Someone feel free to step in.

[Hebbeh]

I thought the rat dosage was 10-20 mg/kg...
which would be 10 mg/kg x [6 / 37] x your weight in kg
= 1.62 mg/kg x your weight in kg (90kg)
= 146 mg

Anyway, the formula converts to HED mg/kg and then you have to multiply that by your weight in kg.

I read somewhere that they did intravenous injections of up to 10mg/kg. But here: http://www.sumobrain...2012138599.html

It states: "Dihexa was given orally 1.25 mg/kg/day (low dose) and 2 mg/kg/day (high dose)."

Are you sure about the step involving multiplying it by your bodyweight? That is what I did originally, but based on Science Guy's thread I thought otherwise.

Also here: http://suppversity.b...ivalen.html?m=1

HED(1000mg/kg in rats) = 1000mg/kg * (6 kg/m² : 37kg/m²) = 162mg

the amount of pepper corns you would have to use to achieve the "same effect" in human beings.

My understanding is that rats have a much higher metabolism rate (pound for pound) than humans, which is why humans require smaller dosages than rats. I could be wrong here. Someone feel free to step in.

Humans do require smaller doses than rats in mg/kg but since we weigh more than a hundred times more than a rat....we scale it back up to our weight. First paragraph on second page of SG paper has an example with resveratrol and they clearly multiply the HED mg/kg back into scale by the human weight.

2 mg/kg x [6/37] x 70kg (average human weight) = 23 mg HED

Edited by Hebbeh, 02 September 2013 - 07:16 PM.

[Xenix]

What happened to the concerns about carcinogenicity with this substance? Was that not floated earlier in the thread as a real possibility?

The C-Met/HGF signalling pathway is associated with tumor growth. From http://wikipedia.org/wiki/C-Met :

Abnormal MET activation in cancer correlates with poor prognosis, where aberrantly active MET triggers tumor growth, formation of new blood vessels (angiogenesis) that supply the tumor with nutrients, and cancer spread to other organs (metastasis). MET is deregulated in many types of human malignancies, including cancers of kidney, liver, stomach, breast, and brain. Normally, only stem cells and progenitor cells express MET, which allows these cells to grow invasively in order to generate new tissues in an embryo or regenerate damaged tissues in an adult. However, cancer stem cells are thought to hijack the ability of normal stem cells to express MET, and thus become the cause of cancer persistence and spread to other sites in the body.

[megatron]

Yea, we clearly need to sort out the dosing issue before going any further.

[Azz19]

I'm in on the group buy when it happens. Amount depends on price.

[Xenix]

I mean it could also just possibly not be the miracle substance we all hoped for. There is no single substance that will give a person perfect mental functioning, perfect memory, etc. It is physically and chemically impossible. Most brain functions are very complex and never rely on a single mechanism. On top of that, even if all the involved mechanisms because perfect in their efficiency, there is still a part of the brain needing that execution pathway to be set up/developed/ and programmed/layed out correctly.

It doesn't need to be. Any enhancement of cognition, no matter how small, is still an enhancement of cognition.

[Xenix]

I'm starting to think that if this compound is as potent as its researchers' and their findings assert, the HED may be irrelevant. Maybe less if more when it comes to synapse over-expression.

It's still too early to tell, but I seem to be responding much more positively to milligram doses than I did with 40mg+

I've read that synapse over-expression is linked with memory and learning impairments. Maybe there is a sweet spot - and perhaps less is more in terms of dosage.

[Strangelove]

It's still too early to tell, but I seem to be responding much more positively to milligram doses than I did with 40mg+

Great!

What is the dose exactly that you are trying now?
Could you give an estimated price for a 2-3 months amount for the group buy, at this new lower dose?
Most importantly... What are the positive effects that you experience?

There is no interest in acquiring NGF for eye drop delivery for years now. Has anyone checked for a group buy recently? Is the cost still prohibitive?

[Adaptogen]

is there any concern about bdnf overexpression?
http://www.longecity...hing-bad-thing/

Edited by Adaptogen, 19 September 2013 - 03:05 AM.

[dannyo]

is there any concern about bdnf overexpression?
http://www.longecity...87-bdnf-overexpression-induces-learning-and-memory-impairments-in-mice-too-much-of-a-good-thing-bad-thing/

link needs fixing

[nightwolfz]

Voilà!

LINK HERE

Edited by nightwolfz, 24 September 2013 - 04:57 PM.

[stponky]

I agree too much BDNF would be bad. However, there was an interesting story about song birds and increased BDNF.

http://www.scienceda...31023090758.htm

"Researchers from the Max Planck Institute for Ornithology in Seewiesen now found in juvenile zebra finches a possible mechanism that is responsible for the differences in the intensity of song learning. They provided the nerve growth factor “BDNF” to the song control system in the brain. With this treatment the learning ability in juvenile males could be enhanced in such a way that they were able to copy the songs of the father as good as it had been observed in the best learners in a zebra finch nest."

Seems like with many brain chemicals, it is all a balancing act.

[verticalVagabond]

I'd be in for 3-5 g depending on pricing.

[karlthecool]

I'm in for 3 grams.