24 replies to this topic

[alecnevsky]

Target Goal: I have a lot of deadlines to meet this semester, so I am looking to add a safe stimulant to my stack.

Background: Student in mid twenties, almost daily aerobic/cardio exercise --low resting heart rate, no family history of hear problems. Prone to abusing adderall 2-3 times a week with doses that range 40-80mg/12hrs -- hardly safe. No competence in chemistry, neuroscience, biology at all.

Current regimen: multi, 1 vitamin D (5000UI)(morning), 1 methylcobalamin B12 (afternoon), probably 160-200mg caffeine from tea/coffee throughout the day

Morning 11am

500mg Artichoke
10mg Forskolin Extract
1g Tyrosine
500mg ALCAR
50mg Uridine (TAU)
300mg Alpha GPC
600mg DHA
60mg Ginkgo
520mg Gingseng
300mg Pramiracetam
300mg Sulbutiamine


Afternoon 5pm
1g Tyrosine
500mg ALCAR
50mg Uridine (TAU)
300mg Alpha GPC
600mg DHA
60mg Ginkgo
300mg Pramiracetam
300mg Sulbutiamine


Evening 8-10pm
STIMULANT

Method: All dissolved in water and/or drank 15 min. before food on empty stomach. TAU, PRAM and SULB are encapsulated and taken immediately after food.

Problem: Even after taking all these supps, I start to noticeably wind down around 10-11pm when I need to stay up at least till 4am or later and work. I have immediate access to adderall so it is often tempting to go that route. Additionally, I've read that Craze by Driven Sports uses PEA derivates(like N-methyl-beta-MethylPhenylethylamine) that do not get immediately metabolized by MAO on digestion-- I'd like to avoid Craze, per se, but am open to any alternatives that have less neurotoxicity than adderall.

Question: I was looking at Phenylpiracetam (which I can also easily procure) and was wondering whether I could instead add some kind of stimulant (PEA, 4-Fluoroamphetamine, Deprenyl, N-methyl-beta-MethylPhenylethylamine) to this stack and anticipate similar effects considering I already have Pram in it. So, essentially, could I avoid buying Phenylpiracetam/Phenotropyl by adding something to my stack?

I've read people combining Deprenyl (MAOBI) with (PEA) and getting somewhat unreliable results. I'd like to avoid death and high blood pressure, however this work is not getting done unless I get back on adderall which is against my better judgement. So I was thinking about giving PEA + Gingko (MAOI) a go, but I'm not sure whether it will do the trick. Again the motivation here is to stay up and function for prolong periods of time. I think I have the "function" part down with the above supplements, I just cannot seem to stay up and work.

Please help!

[gizmobrain]

Basically you are talking about throwing off the shackles of circadian rhythm. A lot of folks are going to suggest modafinil.

I would combine principles of bright light therapy along with polyphasic sleeping (at least biphasic, if not the everyman approach). You'd be amazed what chugging an energy drink (or any stim) and then taking a 20 minute powernap will do.

Resveratol has been suggested for resetting the circadian clock, so you might try taking it when you wake up.

I know for me that Galantamine and Nefiracetam will knock out my sleepiness if I've shifted around my sleep schedule too much. They both have potent nACh action.

If you are getting low amounts of sleep, make sure to supplement potassium. If you are over using stimulants, be sure to supplement magnesium.

As I mentioned in the CILTEP thread, adding a small dose of Adderall to CILTEP will probably replicate the punch of your usual dose, while keeping the toxicity and tolerance lower.

I'm just throwing out ideas here.

[alecnevsky]

Yeah ideas is what I need. Many good ones here! I will definitely look up the things you mentioned --thanks. The motivation here however is to avoid taking an entirely new drug like Modafinil and Phenylpiracetam by getting some bulk stimulant powder like PEA and adjusting dose accordingly.

Anyone think PEA + Ginkgo (MAOI) is viable?


Also I did not entirely understand this:

. You'd be amazed what chugging an energy drink (or any stim) and then taking a 20 minute powernap will do.

Edited by alecnevsky, 23 October 2012 - 02:00 AM.

[gizmobrain]

This little gem:

Previousresearch has shown that caffeine and a < 15-min nap effectively and separately reduce sleepiness in drivers for 1 hr. In the present study, we examined in 12 sleepy individuals the treatments combined, taken during a 30-min break, prior to a longer (2 hr) continuous monotonous afternoon drive in a car simulator. Nonnap comparisons were 200 mg caffeine only and placebo. For placebo, driving incidents, subjective and electroencephalographic measures of sleepiness all reflected a mid-afternoon peak. This peak was significantly reduced by caffeine and eliminated by the combined treatment, which reduced incidents to 9% of placebo levels versus 34% of placebo levels for caffeine alone. Naps comprising "nonsleep dozing" were still effective.

→ source (external link)

Has to do with knocking out all that adenosine that's floating around, inhibiting your brain signals and whatnot.

Edited by zrbarnes, 23 October 2012 - 02:16 AM.

[datrat]

Anyone think PEA + Ginkgo (MAOI) is viable?

As one who is, unfortunately, a very good responder to PEA (I say unfortunately because I really abused it and it ended up causing me a lot of unforeseen problems) I believe that PEA is too stimulating for a study aid; n = 1. For me, physical activities were great, but reading or writing on PEA was impossible.

[kenj]

Additionally, I've read that Craze by Driven Sports uses PEA derivates(like N-methyl-beta-MethylPhenylethylamine) that do not get immediately metabolized by MAO on digestion-- I'd like to avoid Craze, per se,

Just curious, why you wanna avoid 'Craze'?

BTW, I don't think Ginkgo would do much for you in this context unless I'm really missing somehing here?

[alecnevsky]

As one who is, unfortunately, a very good responder to PEA (I say unfortunately because I really abused it and it ended up causing me a lot of unforeseen problems) I believe that PEA is too stimulating for a study aid; n = 1. For me, physical activities were great, but reading or writing on PEA was impossible.

That's interesting. What did you take it with, if with anything?

Just curious, why you wanna avoid 'Craze'?

Well, one is the price, two is the fact that I won't be able to adjust how much of individual stimulant I will be taking making it less safe imo. Last and most obvious thing, is that no body really knows what and where they got their ingredients and whether the stimulants included are in fact safe.

BTW (as an aside) I just took 10mg adderall with 500mg tyrosine and I'm feeling pretty wired. I am pretty sure this is one of its contraindications as it seems like the excess dopamine is going to cause an even greater down-regulation of receptors. Having said that, it was much easier than spending 5 hrs reading subjective testimonials on whether 500mg of Tyrosine + 10mg of adderall is safe or not. Here's mine: I feel fine --not more or less, my head is somewhat uncomfortably pressured but other than that it's a pleasant feeling. Let me know if I should run to the ER though.

P.S. I do realize how ironic this "experiment" looks in the context of this thread. The extent I'll go to find a "safer" alternative is hilarious to me too.

Edited by alecnevsky, 23 October 2012 - 08:37 AM.

[alecnevsky]

Let me just comment more on this "accidental discovery." Generally, I just feel like blasting my music as loud as possible rather than working. It's definitely reminiscent of MDMA, only somewhat more sleepy/lazy. Closing my eyes feels great. Cannot concentrate for the most part as tyrosine killed my clarity entirely. Just earlier I was playing speed chess and now I can barely read. But I am definitely up -- not exactly what I wanted to say the least. Starting to hate adderall even more after this but it's blatantly my fault. Fakk.

BTW while I took this with 10mg adderall, I had 20mg ER in my system and 120mg Ginkgo taken 12hrs ago.

Edited by alecnevsky, 23 October 2012 - 11:01 AM.

[alecnevsky]

Never mind. Took my morning stack minus Ginkgo and Tyrosine (too much dopamine activation I think) and the "MDMA" numbness/slowness from adderall+ tyrosine (+ maybe ginkgo post 12 hrs after dosing) disappeared. Amazing results. Like someone put a rested brain in there. I do however feel unusually hypothermic but I think that's from adderall. Moral of the story: this stack essentially brought me out of an MDMA-like coma. And, also, considering this is going on 24hr of no sleep, definitely impressive results.

I'm still considering a getting PEA and trying it. Does anyone have any suggestions? I'd like to come up with something like Phenylpiracetam if possible.

Edited by alecnevsky, 23 October 2012 - 01:36 PM.

[greekpsychonaut]

Phenylpiracetam in Craze? I don't think so. THE OG version had an amphetamine feel which they deny of course.

[@now]

Phenylpiracetam is not enough to keep me awake (not even with caffein). But great focus during the day.

[Mr. Pink]

Never mind. Took my morning stack minus Ginkgo and Tyrosine (too much dopamine activation I think) and the "MDMA" numbness/slowness from adderall+ tyrosine (+ maybe ginkgo post 12 hrs after dosing) disappeared. Amazing results. Like someone put a rested brain in there. I do however feel unusually hypothermic but I think that's from adderall. Moral of the story: this stack essentially brought me out of an MDMA-like coma. And, also, considering this is going on 24hr of no sleep, definitely impressive results.

I'm still considering a getting PEA and trying it. Does anyone have any suggestions? I'd like to come up with something like Phenylpiracetam if possible.

are you saying that addy makes you numb and slow like withdrawl for ecstacy? just curious re addy

[alecnevsky]

Phenylpiracetam is not enough to keep me awake (not even with caffein). But great focus during the day.

I've heard tolerance develops quickly with Phenyl. Do you have the legit Russian kind?

are you saying that addy makes you numb and slow like withdrawl for ecstacy? just curious re addy

Adderall + Tyrosine made my head feel very pressured to the point of euphoria, but not to any productive end. It must've been from all the dopamine. I'm never doing that again and advise against it.



Still, can someone with chemistry/neuro background tell me if taking PRAM+PEA could be similar to Phenylpiracetam? If not, I'm just going to order the latter.

Edited by alecnevsky, 23 October 2012 - 08:49 PM.

[Tubemode]

Far from. Phenylpiracetam is essentially Piracetam with a phenyl group.

PEA won't last long in your system as it will be readily metabolized by MAOI.

You say you don't like adderall because of it's perceived addictive qualities and the potential neurotoxicity? Try Ritalin then.

Seriously though, sounds to me like you're trying to look for a way to reproduce the 'high' brought upon by adderall use.

You're already taking risks by combining Adderall with some of the aforementioned supplements, why not decrease the risk exponentially by going on just one pill? Ritalin, that being.

Edited by Tubemode, 24 October 2012 - 01:12 AM.

[alecnevsky]

Far from. Phenylpiracetam is essentially Piracetam with a phenyl group.

PEA won't last long in your system as it will be readily metabolized by MAOI.

You say you don't like adderall because of it's perceived addictive qualities and the potential neurotoxicity? Try Ritalin then.

Seriously though, sounds to me like you're trying to look for a way to reproduce the 'high' brought upon by adderall use.

You're already taking risks by combining Adderall with some of the aforementioned supplements, why not decrease the risk exponentially by going on just one pill? Ritalin, that being.

You make some good points.

But don't products like Craze feature some kind of PEA in conjunction with MAOI herbs to prevent metabolism? It obviously works (not without some strange side effects) so I thought it'd be at least conceivable to find an analogue ingredient, buy it in bulk, manipulate dose, have little to no side effects and stack it on top of everything else. I think I sabotaged the integrity of my own thread with the adderall experiment. Heh. It is what it is.

As far as your observation of my add. habit, I'm happy to say it's not accurate. As far as mixing adderall with my stack -- desperate times... It was a unique case [of procrastination.]

Thanks for everybody's suggestions and input so far!

[greekpsychonaut]

I am of the opinion, as well as many others that it is not the bogus PEA in the formula that gives it's amphetamine-like effects. It's a compound similar to amphetamine I would gather.

[Tubemode]

@Alec

You sure you don't know anything about neuropharmacology? Seems like you know quite a bit.

The purported Dendrobium alkaloid found in Craze is not a MAOI, by my recollection. Well, as far as Cahill is letting on.

Why don't you try it. I wouldn't call it comparable to amphetamines. I've tried both in the past. Is it a potent focus enhancer however? Without a doubt.

DGS and I believe that Ritalin is a better alternative. Can no longer count the number of 'help me I am hooked to Adderall' threads I have come across online. It is scary to say the least.

I mean you yourself admit that you have abused adderall in the past.

Counted them. Holy hell. There are five or six by my count over the course of the last two or three pages.

[Tubemode]

Man. Looked through that one thread with the 43 year old man with 5 kids looking for help. Can't function without Adderall apparently.

My heart goes out to him. This is one of the reasons why I have only ever taken Adderall twice.

[alecnevsky]

Thanks--I may try Ritalin if nothing else works. I did just order Phenylpiracetam however. I'll update once I get it.

Also, as far as administration goes, it can take a while to dose. So I was wondering if I could mix all of my water solubles together and make a small tub like workout supps(also add creatine)? I am thinking of only capping Pram, Sulbutiamine and Tau, which would make about 650-700mg--perfect for 00 caps.

[alecnevsky]

Update: so I've been running on this stack nonstop for about a week and a half now. Just today (right now) started noticing some throbbing back-brain towards the very top of the head-type of headache. I've discontinued ginkgo a while back and am managing my adderall (no more than 10mg/12 hrs.) Could it be that I am low on choline and these are pram headaches? The recommended dose on the GPC 98% powder says 500mgs and I take only 300mgs. I wonder whether I should get some CDP in view of short half life of GPC. I can't cycle off right now. I need to be on top this entire week.

P.S. Haven't received my phenylpiracetem yet, thus add. is back on the menu. Could very likely just be adderall, again. (differnt effect however)

Edited by alecnevsky, 29 October 2012 - 05:22 AM.

[Pirate]

Interesting thread.

Have you taken tyrosine just by itself? Also 2g's a day of tyrosine seems a lot. Was that everyday? I've read you have to cycle it. (I have it, but have only taken it once at 500mg. I was quite manic on it, but funcitoned well on 5 hrs sleep).

[alecnevsky]

I am in the process of cycling off everything for 3 days except multi, fish, D, creatine and CILTEP. Today is my second day and I feel less "up" but overall great--no "comedowns" or withdrawals noticeable. But, obviously, I'm not studying so I cannot determine whether I am any better or worse in reading comprehension, analytical problem solving or synthesis. One thing I will reiterate is that adderall in doses of >15mg/12hr makes me feellike shit on no sleep (24hr+days). I am still waiting for my order of Phenylpiracetam, Noopept and about to make an order of Modafinil. While working on no sleep + add. is better than working without it, I am beginning to think that adding add onto my stack completely exhausts my body/brain.

Re: Tyrosine. I may try cutting down to 1g per day since I am stacking everything else. I still have mixed feelings about Pram + Sulb. vs TAUGPCALCARTYROSINE -- not sure which is responsible for making me feel "recharged." Perhaps it's the synergy... It's really impossible to have good trials in 1.5 months. I am going to continue taking everything till I finish the semester and then try to isolate in the Spring.

P.S. The aforementioned head aches were eliminated by increasing GPC dosing to 500mg/serving. Also, I'm surprised no one told me to cut down on my vit D. (Lol.) I am taking 5000 UI twice a week now, not daily.

Edited by alecnevsky, 04 November 2012 - 12:43 AM.

[alecnevsky]

UPDATE: Alright so I took phenylpiracetam (authentic russian pill) two hours ago along with ALCAR500mg+GPC350mg+Tyrosine500mg +600DHA + CILTEP + 120mg Caffeine + Methyl b12 1000mcg (my everyday routine minus racetams tau and sulb) and I think it all has just peaked. This is the closest I've felt to adderall on noops. I feel alert and motivated -- pronounced tunnel vision effect + physical vigor/strength. Music sounded particularly good about an hour ago but now it seems like a distraction so I turned it off. Indeed, it is not at all a "right brain" drug. The focus (on important things) is incredible-- even writing this is making me feel trivial (lol.) I think this is better than my pram 300mg + ani 750 + sulb. 300mg stack in terms of focus, motivation and stimulation. I will try this with Sulb + Pram + Ani soon enough. However, I believe it will be difficult to justify the pain in the ass of mixing and capping pram-ani-sulb-tau next time. All in all, it seems like Russian pharma really know what they're doing. Cheers!

Edited by alecnevsky, 14 November 2012 - 03:54 AM.

[Pirate]

Any updates mate? I'm studying this year and looking at stacks like yours.

[alecnevsky]

I made a few of conclusions based on latter 4-6 weeks of last semester:

First, I retired pram+ani+uridine+sulb+choline from my morning stack based on all seemingly having anxiolytic/modulating properties.

I also decided to go much easier on tyrosine, limiting a single dose to 350mg of Acetyl-L-Tyrosine (instead of 1g of generic Tyrosine.) Anything above 350mg of Acetyl-Tyrosine made me uncontrollably aggressive and somewhat impulsive/anxious.

Noopept did not work for me at all. I felt loony and whimsical on it. Hardly a study noop imo.

B-Complex was effective in keeping me generally fit for long study sessions but I'd be very concerned with b-6 toxicity if I decided to mega-dose that. I would do no more than 50mg from supplements in 24 hrs.

Now to the good discoveries:

Armodafinil, if moderately dosed, is by far the most effective insofar as analyzing, registering and synthesizing information, holding everything else constant (moderate sleep for instance.) Now, I did not have many "reading" exams so I am not sure if it works just as well with writing. Something tells me I write more creatively on adderall.

Phenylpiracetam is wonderful for exhaustion and bodily fatigue but has little to no benefits in terms of the executive function. It is something you would take the morning after pulling an all-nighter, not something you would take in order to pull one.

What I am working on right now is getting enough glutamine and tyrosine from real food during dinner in order to avoid megadosing it in the morning. I've also added piracetam + glutamate in the morning. (Right, after doing all of that I finally tried piracetam.)

Everything else in my stack (there is plenty else) is not study motivated but more about correcting deficiencies, avoiding toxicities and potential ROS damage so I won't go into that.