420 replies to this topic

[nupi]

As for Vieno's list, I get 1 only on serotonergics. I get 6 in the sense that laughing feels better than baseline - who knows if it is happiness. Rest is rather conspicuously absent.

@amnesiagirl: AlphaGPC is generally considered to be the more depressing one of the two (because it does not get the uplift from CDP being converted to Uridine), so be wary there. As for rejection, it's not that I am all that sensitive to it (I can handle it) it's more that the fear preempts me from doing anything that might result in (perceived) rejection. In the professional domain, there is some of that but so far I survived it without too much impact (it would obviously be better to get rid of it). In private life it's a hopeless undertaking...

[Vieno]

Maybe you should go to "psychforums.com" or somewhere like that to discuss your fear of rejection?

Amnesiagirl: could you take the quiz I posted before your last post? Would help with diagnostics.

Nupi: with serotonergics do you mean only SSRIs or something more general? So many drugs are serotonergic. I suppose it is possible that your psychological conditions are simply co-morbid with consummatory anhedonia: if you truly are getting like four 'no's and two 1/2 'yes's it indicates you have consummatory anhedonia: however, because we do not know how psychology relates to consummatory anhedonia, it may be that by treating your psychological probelms (or other non-"consummatory anhedonic" physiological problems) the consummatory anhedonia would vanish. It appears that consummatory anhedonia is very rare in psychiatric conditions such as depression, but it may still sometimes be there and it may be caused by the depressive thought processes or other depressive physiology. My case is not that, but yours may be.

[nupi]

Not just SSRIs, at the very least Bacopa has a similar effect (or used to have, it seemed to vanish after a while) and is definitely thought to be serotonergic. Definitely possible that treating something else would make the anhedonia vanish - or that addressing the anhedonia would address other issues, who knows. And if strong opioids turn out to be my best bet, I think I prefer to stay in my current place which is not exactly exciting but at least comfortable...

[Vieno]

If Bacopa is your only experience of serotonergics aside SSRIs and its effect seemed to vanish after a while, I wouldn't conclude that it is serotonergics in general that help you to feel music, too little evidence. However it seems obvious that SSRIs do that for you. Together with dissolvedissolve's link http://www.ncbi.nlm..../PE_7_10_14.pdf which I'm examining at the moment, it appears that SSRIs indeed do not induce consummatory anhedonia. In your case, could it be that the SSRIs anxiolytic properties help you to focus on the pleasurable experience derived from music instead of anxious thoughts? You mentioned that SSRIs help you with anxiety. What all do SSRIs do for you?

Edited by Vieno, 08 December 2012 - 05:09 PM.

[nupi]

Let's focus on what Escitalopram did because that is about as pure an SSRI as they come.

• reduced generalized anxiety
• made me a little more outgoing (not too much though)
• increased need for sleed
• improved mood
• lowered obsessive thoughts a lot, both the frequency they arise with as well as how easy it is to ignore them - note, I never had any compulsions so do not fully fit OCD)
• made music more enjoyable (especially with one or two glasses of wine).

As it has a relatively short half life, I could actually tell quite well when it was working and when it was not. It also in general mellows me down and in the description of a friend of mine "you seem saner than usual" and probably a little more open to sharing my feelings (though there are confounding factors that might have driven that particular point).

Prozac is similar but a lot more activating, seems to actually increase my libido (varies a little) and reigns in the need for sleep to reasonable levels (I can still easily sleep 10 hours but do not feel bad if I only get 6-7).

Cymbalta (an SNRI really) did had most of the mood improving and some of the anxiolytic activity but also had a tendency to disrupt sleep, make me hyper and rather more than less obsessive.

Wellbutrin (NE release, some DRI) makes me more alert for a while, hyper at higher doses but disrupts sleeps, is anxiogenic rather than anxiolytic and can make me even more obsessive. It also improves mood for a while. It also occasionally made me quite fascinated by trees

Effexor (another SNRI) was too long ago to really remember (and there I was clearly dealing with major depression which currently is not the case)

Edited by nupi, 08 December 2012 - 05:38 PM.

[Vieno]

Thank you a lot for the detailed description of your experiences. Clearly shows how SSRI does not induce consummatory anhedonia but instead sedates certain cognitive activity which leads to emotional blunting among other things. Also shows that you do not suffer from consummatory anhedonia: it's defined as the inability to experience pleasure, and when listening to music, you clearly do experience pleasure. There are probably numerous factors diminishing your pleasure in general and that lessens the pleasurability of your life, but appears that the physiological pleasure processes itself are working: all the way from endorphin release to the experience itself.

This leads me to exclude medievil's suggestion on using serotonergics in treating consummatory anhedonia: I find no reason to expect serotonin releaser + cannabinoid combos to work. Amphetamine is still worth trying thanks to its glutamatergic mechanism of action, but the certainty of its effeciacy has experienced a certain dent thanks to the latest semantic turns :P

Edited by Vieno, 08 December 2012 - 05:53 PM.

[gizmobrain]

I think you'll find that it's all about the proper dopamine to glutamate ratio. Too much glutamate, and you'll see skin and noise oversensitivity, irritability, etc. Not enough glutamate, and you'll find consummatory anhedonia. I realize that is a very poor description. I'm still trying to figure it out myself.

Amphetamines and Forskolin increase the probability of glutamate release, by the way.

Edited by zrbarnes, 08 December 2012 - 06:14 PM.

[Vieno]

I think you'll find that it's all about the proper dopamine to glutamate ratio. Too much glutamate, and you'll see skin and noise oversensitivity, irritability, etc. Not enough glutamate, and you'll find consummatory anhedonia. I realize that is a very poor description. I'm still trying to figure it out myself.

Amphetamines and Forskolin increase the probability of glutamate release, by the way.

It does appear that both dopamine and glutamate play a role. I just wish there was a more detailed study on this, now all we know is that they play a role, so all we can do is to try dopaminergics and glutaminergics. And pure dopaminergics for sure do absolutely nothing, so gotta try the glutamatergics. They're my main focus right now.

[gizmobrain]

It does appear that both dopamine and glutamate play a role. I just wish there was a more detailed study on this, now all we know is that they play a role, so all we can do is to try dopaminergics and glutaminergics. And pure dopaminergics for sure do absolutely nothing, so gotta try the glutamatergics. They're my main focus right now.

If you are going to experiement with glutamatergics, it is helpful to have some L-theanine on hand. It is a good way to cancel the bad effects if you go slightly out of balance with too much glutamate. Of course, if you go way too far over, then you start killing brain cells, and you should probably take something sedative. But for skin and noise oversensitivity, and irritability, L-theanine will help.

Edited by zrbarnes, 08 December 2012 - 06:44 PM.

[Vieno]

It does appear that both dopamine and glutamate play a role. I just wish there was a more detailed study on this, now all we know is that they play a role, so all we can do is to try dopaminergics and glutaminergics. And pure dopaminergics for sure do absolutely nothing, so gotta try the glutamatergics. They're my main focus right now.

If you are going to experiement with glutamatergics, it is helpful to have some L-theanine on hand. It is a good way to cancel the bad effects if you go slightly out of balance with too much glutamate. Of course, if you go way too far over, then you start killing brain cells, and you should probably take something sedative. But for skin and noise oversensitivity, and irritability, L-theanine will help.

I think overdosing is best avoided by increasing the dosage step by step, but thanks for the tip anyway. Too bad I didn't order theanine when I bought some herbs, alone it would not help. Maybe I'll just have a liter of black tea avalaible XD

Is the brain cell death possible at a single dose or only as a result of continuous use?

[Dissolvedissolve]

I would just like to add that I can confirm the anticipatory anhedonia increasing effects of bacopa. At first, even though I don't have anxiety issues, and I was taking it for memory improvements, I found the anxiolysis pleasant. After a while, I realized it was worsening my anhedonia. It also had SSRI-like sexual side effects, which were also unwelcome.

I think you'll find that it's all about the proper dopamine to glutamate ratio. Too much glutamate, and you'll see skin and noise oversensitivity, irritability, etc. Not enough glutamate, and you'll find consummatory anhedonia. I realize that is a very poor description. I'm still trying to figure it out myself.

Amphetamines and Forskolin increase the probability of glutamate release, by the way.

That's very interesting. I must admit I cannot figure out all of these connections right now. The brain is incredibly complicated. But since there's been discussion of psychedelics and also of glutamate's role in consummatory anhedonia, here's just one more link for thought, discussing the relationship between psychedelics, antipsychotics, and glutamine: http://neuroskeptic....ale-of-two.html

Also, if glutamate is implicated in consummatory pleasure (and apparently the opioid system as well), then we're still thinking of DA as responsible for anticipatory pleasure, motivation, focus, and so on? This certainly makes sense based on the suspected causes and treatments for bipolar disorder. (A hypothesis I've been contemplating recently is that anhedonic symptoms are more similar to bipolar depression than typical depression, since it seems bipolar depression is more related to dopamine and typical depression is more related to serotonin. I'm grossly overgeneralizing, obviously.)

And finally, and I admit this post is a bit winding and disjointed, are there any more suggestions for ways to increase DA neurotransmission? There are stimulants, obviously. I'm currently trying uridine, but it seems more pro-serotonergic than pro-dopaminergic. There's CDP choline, although that effect might be modulated by uridine. There are dopamine agonists - meaning parkinson's drugs. There's selegiline, and other non-selective MAOIs. Wellbutrin's DARI action seems to be very weak based on medievil's input. Any other suggestions, ideally OTC?

[Vieno]

I would just like to add that I can confirm the anticipatory anhedonia increasing effects of bacopa. At first, even though I don't have anxiety issues, and I was taking it for memory improvements, I found the anxiolysis pleasant. After a while, I realized it was worsening my anhedonia. It also had SSRI-like sexual side effects, which were also unwelcome.

I now consider this proven: SSRIs induce anticipatory anhedonia, not consummatory. In all honesty, I'll still do some more research

That's very interesting. I must admit I cannot figure out all of these connections right now. The brain is incredibly complicated. But since there's been discussion of psychedelics and also of glutamate's role in consummatory anhedonia, here's just one more link for thought, discussing the relationship between psychedelics, antipsychotics, and glutamine: http://neuroskeptic....ale-of-two.html

Thanks for the link, will go through it later.

Also, if glutamate is implicated in consummatory pleasure (and apparently the opioid system as well), then we're still thinking of DA as responsible for anticipatory pleasure, motivation, focus, and so on? This certainly makes sense based on the suspected causes and treatments for bipolar disorder. (A hypothesis I've been contemplating recently is that anhedonic symptoms are more similar to bipolar depression than typical depression, since it seems bipolar depression is more related to dopamine and typical depression is more related to serotonin. I'm grossly overgeneralizing, obviously.)

And finally, and I admit this post is a bit winding and disjointed, are there any more suggestions for ways to increase DA neurotransmission? There are stimulants, obviously. I'm currently trying uridine, but it seems more pro-serotonergic than pro-dopaminergic. There's CDP choline, although that effect might be modulated by uridine. There are dopamine agonists - meaning parkinson's drugs. There's selegiline, and other non-selective MAOIs. Wellbutrin's DARI action seems to be very weak based on medievil's input. Any other suggestions, ideally OTC?

Yes, there is all the reason to expect DA to be responsible for physiological motivation. Apparently all dopamine agonists are called stimulants btw. Anyway, I think that if you truly want to discuss how to chemically induce more motivation, wanting and anticipatory pleasure whatever it means, you could make a thread for it? I do not know details about dopamine agonism, just the basics. I hope that in this thread we can discuss consummatory anhedonia. It may mean that I'll end up having a monologue here but so be it xD

[Dissolvedissolve]

Yes, there is all the reason to expect DA to be responsible for physiological motivation. Apparently all dopamine agonists are called stimulants btw. Anyway, I think that if you truly want to discuss how to chemically induce more motivation, wanting and anticipatory pleasure whatever it means, you could make a thread for it? I do not know details about dopamine agonism, just the basics. I hope that in this thread we can discuss consummatory anhedonia. It may mean that I'll end up having a monologue here but so be it xD

I will probably go ahead and do that. And not to throw this thread off-topic any more than it is, but dopamine agonists actually aren't necessarily stimulants. L-DOPA, for instance, is not stimulatory. I have seen studies backing this up which I can try to hunt down if you would like. I actually thought that they were for a while, but the reason that dopamine is often thought of as stimulatory is that it is often increased or its reputake inhibited by the same agents as norepinephrine. That is, of course, due to the structural similarity, and perhaps the fact that PFC DA reuptake is handled by the norepinephrine transporter.

[Killword]

I suppose cannabinoids would help as well, but they have their own issues (such as causing lazyness or cognitive decline)

As for psychedelics.

...

Medievil, are these your experiences? I also had a similar experience with low dose 2c-p. What was your ROA? I find 2c-p plugged (especially at low doses) comes up very quickly and painlessly and is virtually side-effect free apart from a slightly apathetic comedown. It can also cause dry mouth and muscle tension if it's used too frequently. I find that it's most helpful for combating social anhedonia (although this can be unpredictable... sometimes I get the opposite effect) and it's probably one of the best psychs for sexual anhedonia and enhancement even at very very low doses.

I have tried various other psychs at below threshold doses and my experience has been that the most useful are the ones that are considered empathogenic while the least useful are the ones that are often called dissociative. My main focus was on mood enhancement but I think that definitely goes hand in hand with consummatory anhedonia.

Of those I've tried, these are the ones I consider empathogenic:

2c-p, 2c-b, 2c-t-2 [but too psychedelic], 2c-i [too stimulating], 5-meo-mipt, 4-aco-met [too weird], 25i-nbome [too psychedelic but could be tolerable at very low doses; also fantastic memory/visualization aid], DOC [too stimulating but I may be overly sensitive to that effect]

And those that are dissociating:

2c-t-4 [very low doses are in between but it lasts way too long], 2c-c, 25c-nbome

I haven't used any of these lately but 2c-p and 2c-b are my favorites for improving mood (and anhedonia) without any psychotomimetic effects (2c-b can lead to some odd humor/speech, though). I have some 4-aco-dmt coming and I'm hoping that will be more empathogenic and useful for mood and possibly as a nootropic. I also have tons of 25c-nbome and 2c-t-4 so I may continue to experiment with ultra-low dosing when I have time to deal with their duration.

I have also found methyl-b12 very very useful for mood and anhedonia but that is very short-lived. Turmeric extract and fish oil have also had some beneficial effects after a few weeks use.

[Killword]

Warning, long story ahead.

I have dealt with anhedonia all while growing up, but it wasn't a sad, depressive anhedonia. It was more of a "perpetually bored" type of thing. I was always content with this until my college years. I tried to go to school for computer engineering at one of the top schools in the country. Even though I was naturally gifted, I had no drive or motivation to do my school work. Once the novel nature of a subject wore off, so also did my ability to focus on the subject.

After failing numerous times and switching schools, the rejection started to cause anxiety (which I had never experienced in my life). Then, my girlfriend of 5 years cheated on me. I guess some psych docs would say that I had PTSD type symptoms from this. Combine this with the underlying anhedonia, and you have a recipe for disaster. At this point, I pretty much just slept and tried to find things to amuse myself, accomplishing nothing but wracking up credit card debt as I foolishly tried to still attend school. I gradually worked my way out of the depression, insomnia, and the majority of the other symptoms related to a really bad heartbreak. But I still couldn't pass classes or pay attention. It was like my anhedonia had increased 10 fold.

I finally went to see my doctor. He prescribed me adderall. My anhedonia disappeared, but I had every side effect of amphetamines. My BP went ridiculously high too. After about 6 months of this, I quit school, quit adderall, and starting studying the brain.

I know those feels. I had a similar experience, minus the cheating, leading me to drop out of college and move back home... haven't managed to turn my life around yet but the results I've had from the CILTEP stack have me hoping I can return to college soon. Also had a very positive response to methyl cobalamin but didn't really like low or high dose selegiline. I think I probably have considerably more depression/anxiety issues than you but I'd be curious to know if you've found anything else useful for focus and attention. Have you tried uridine? I'm trying that next.

Edited by Killword, 09 December 2012 - 10:00 AM.

[Vieno]

Killword, please take this small quiz, helps tremendously to pinpoint one's problems. Yes/no answers are sufficient:

• When listening to music of my choice intended to evoke beautiful feelings (such as pop, classical or soul) I get feelings that could be described as euphoria, albeit not necessarily as strong as "being high".
• When going out with a group of friends for a beer and light-hearted chat, I get absorbed in the interaction so intensely that good feelings just seem to be floating around.
• When eating sugary foods (with not much other ingredients such as fat) such as sugar, honey, sweets and some high-carb types of pastry, I enjoy the eating experience to a great extent even though I'm full from salty food ate before.
• When having sex (with a partner or alone), I do not only experience gratification from fulfilling my physiological need of getting an orgasm but additional euphoric pleasure.
• When excercising for an extended period, I get rushes of euphoria and intense feelings of well-being build up.
• When I'm presented humour of my preference, I laugh spontaneously and feel ease and happiness at least for a moment.

[Killword]

No to all but maybe 1 and 5, but not much at all in the past 5-10 years.

[Vieno]

Okay. Damnit, it is so hard to know who's actually suffering from consummatory and who anticipatory anhedonia. Anticipatory is common, that's for sure, but to what extent does consummatory anhedonia exist?

[gizmobrain]

I've given it some thought, and I'm starting to realize that anticipatory anhedonia stays around in my life, but consummatory anhedonia comes and goes.

If I'm having a "nothing feels good" day, I will occasionally take Solaray Viramax Yohimbe-Free. It is supposed to be for sexual enhancement, but I find it to be an all over booster.

It contains:

• Peruvian Maca (Lepidium spp.)(root extract)
• Tribulus (Tribulus terrestris) (fruit)
• Muira Puama (Liriosma ovata )(root)
• Catuaba (Erythroxylum catuaba) (bark)

Edited by zrbarnes, 09 December 2012 - 06:04 PM.

[capctr]

What IS 2ce, and how do I get it? Is it expensive, safe, legal? I have somehow tripped into anhedonia, and it is ruining my life, a life that is almost perfect! I have 3beautiful daughters, a loving beautiful wife-who makes enough money that she suggested I quit the job I hated and stay home to care for the beautiful home on the lake, nestled in the snow capped mountains. My daughters are beautiful, brilliant, and talented at 14, 11, and 4. They get straight A report cards, and fill the house with beautiful music when they sing and play the piano. My wife wants one more, and it is one of the few things that warmed my soul, as I adore my family. I could go on ad nauseum, and though it sounds like humblebrag, it isn't. I merely use this to help illustrate the fact that my life is almost perfect, but I can't seem to enjoy it like I used to. I feel like I am on autopilot, and it is failing, gradually spinning me out of control. Could the regimen that medieval quoted help me break out of this? I am growing desperate.

[gizmobrain]

I will answer your quiz as such that is an average day, with no substances in my body, and applies to the majority of my life:

1. When listening to music of my choice intended to evoke beautiful feelings (such as pop, classical or soul) I get feelings that could be described as euphoria, albeit not necessarily as strong as "being high".

Music means a lot to me. In certain times and days, a song can evoke more emotions then real human interactions. It is usually a sad feeling that I find feels good in a weird way. Most of my favorite music has minor chords, and deep bass notes. For me, I think I enjoy things that make me somewhat sad, because it is something that I don't feel that often. Is that a weird enough description for you?

2. When going out with a group of friends for a beer and light-hearted chat, I get absorbed in the interaction so intensely that good feelings just seem to be floating around.

I wanted to answer yes, but then I realized that this didn't happen until I started taking pseudoephedrine daily in highschool. On times outside of that, I can definitely enjoy myself having a good conversation with someone, but it's mostly from intellectual stimulating conversations, or if it's something that I find particularly funny. Most other times I tend to tune in and out of the conversation, getting caught up in my own, more interesting thoughts

3. When eating sugary foods (with not much other ingredients such as fat) such as sugar, honey, sweets and some high-carb types of pastry, I enjoy the eating experience to a great extent even though I'm full from salty food ate before.

Chocolate is a thrill to me. I have gotten goose bumps from a good dessert. Maybe this is because chocolate contains stimulatory compounds?

4. When having sex (with a partner or alone), I do not only experience gratification from fulfilling my physiological need of getting an orgasm but additional euphoric pleasure.

For reasons mentioned earlier, I'm not a very good judge of this. However, I will say that I crave and enjoy touch from my fiancee. Human touch releases oxytocin, which is heavily involved with dopamine, so once again, human touch is essentially a stimulant.

5. When excercising for an extended period, I get rushes of euphoria and intense feelings of well-being build up.

No, I have always had a really hard time exercising. It hurts, no matter how much, or how long I do it. I've never had "runner's high".

6. When I'm presented humour of my preference, I laugh spontaneously and feel ease and happiness at least for a moment.

Yes, most of the time. However, its kind of weird. Ever since I was a little kid, I don't laugh unless there is someone else who is a witness to my laughter. For instance, if you had a spy cam on me, watching me watch my favorite funny movie with no one else around, I would look like I was just vacantly staring at the screen. However, if someone else were their with me, I might laugh so hard that I cry.

[gizmobrain]

What IS 2ce, and how do I get it? Is it expensive, safe, legal? I have somehow tripped into anhedonia, and it is ruining my life, a life that is almost perfect! I have 3beautiful daughters, a loving beautiful wife-who makes enough money that she suggested I quit the job I hated and stay home to care for the beautiful home on the lake, nestled in the snow capped mountains. My daughters are beautiful, brilliant, and talented at 14, 11, and 4. They get straight A report cards, and fill the house with beautiful music when they sing and play the piano. My wife wants one more, and it is one of the few things that warmed my soul, as I adore my family. I could go on ad nauseum, and though it sounds like humblebrag, it isn't. I merely use this to help illustrate the fact that my life is almost perfect, but I can't seem to enjoy it like I used to. I feel like I am on autopilot, and it is failing, gradually spinning me out of control. Could the regimen that medieval quoted help me break out of this? I am growing desperate.

Given the life you just described, 2ce is probably not something you should think about. It is a research chemical, which has little research behind it, and its hard to find any guarantee that what you get is pure without expensive testing procedures. Legality of a lot of research chemicals is a gray area in the US because of the vague "Federal Analog Act". Those purchasing these chemicals are not likely to run into much risk of prosecution. However, those who synthesize and distribute them can draw the attention of the law enforcement, therefore there is a lot of secrecy, scams, and unverified sources.

I highly recommend starting with a small supplement regimen. Something like a B vitamin complex with actual bioavailable forms like Jarrow Formulas, B-Right. Then check out the Uridine Stack thread. I recommend Sublingual Uridine 5' monophosphate (I get mine from superior nutraceuticals), and some source of DHA omega 3 (krill oil is a good non-fishy variety). Skip the Choline part of the stack, since this can cause emotional blunting. You could take these 3 things for the rest of your life, and they would be good for you.

Once you have those three parts down, I recommend something like what I mentioned above, like the Solaray Viramax (Yohimbe-Free) to see if that gives you enough of a boost. Other herbs to try are Panax Ginseng, Rhodiola Rosea, Curcumin, or St John's Wart.

If not, then this is where some of the "crazier" (i.e. higher risk) suggestions of this thread start to come in.

Edited by zrbarnes, 09 December 2012 - 09:56 PM.

[Dissolvedissolve]

What IS 2ce, and how do I get it? Is it expensive, safe, legal? I have somehow tripped into anhedonia, and it is ruining my life, a life that is almost perfect! I have 3beautiful daughters, a loving beautiful wife-who makes enough money that she suggested I quit the job I hated and stay home to care for the beautiful home on the lake, nestled in the snow capped mountains. My daughters are beautiful, brilliant, and talented at 14, 11, and 4. They get straight A report cards, and fill the house with beautiful music when they sing and play the piano. My wife wants one more, and it is one of the few things that warmed my soul, as I adore my family. I could go on ad nauseum, and though it sounds like humblebrag, it isn't. I merely use this to help illustrate the fact that my life is almost perfect, but I can't seem to enjoy it like I used to. I feel like I am on autopilot, and it is failing, gradually spinning me out of control. Could the regimen that medieval quoted help me break out of this? I am growing desperate.

2C-E is a research chemical. It is definitely a 5-HT2A agonist, with possible releasing agent properties - this judgment based purely on its chemical structure and others' bioassays. The problem with psychedelics is that they are either (1) illegal or (2) not well studied.

Also, by the way, 2C-E is now schedule I. It was scheduled in the past year. There are other 2C-series chemicals that are legal, I believe, but again, they are not well-studied and not worth messing with.

As far as treatments, the most viable treatment for anticipatory anhedonia, which is presumably what you are dealing with since it is far more common, is likely some sort of stimulant treatment. Another potential option is selegiline, a selective MAO-B inhibitor. Either of these options would involve you talking to your psychiatrist and receiving a prescription.

It would be wise for you to respond to the TEPS that I posted as well as Vieno's questionnaire in order to figure out what type of anhedonia you're dealing with.

And by the way Vieno, I'm sure you're aware of this, but I would respond positively to all of your statements. There are times in the past when I probably would've had less positive responses, but never for more than a period of 1-2 months.

Edited by Dissolvedissolve, 09 December 2012 - 10:02 PM.

[Mr Kebab]

What IS 2ce, and how do I get it? Is it expensive, safe, legal? I have somehow tripped into anhedonia, and it is ruining my life, a life that is almost perfect! I have 3beautiful daughters, a loving beautiful wife-who makes enough money that she suggested I quit the job I hated and stay home to care for the beautiful home on the lake, nestled in the snow capped mountains. My daughters are beautiful, brilliant, and talented at 14, 11, and 4. They get straight A report cards, and fill the house with beautiful music when they sing and play the piano. My wife wants one more, and it is one of the few things that warmed my soul, as I adore my family. I could go on ad nauseum, and though it sounds like humblebrag, it isn't. I merely use this to help illustrate the fact that my life is almost perfect, but I can't seem to enjoy it like I used to. I feel like I am on autopilot, and it is failing, gradually spinning me out of control. Could the regimen that medieval quoted help me break out of this? I am growing desperate.

this whole thread, along with something that just ocurred to me has given me a realisation that i will expand on with a new thread when I get some time soon.

For now, my one question is - each day or each week, how many completely new, novel experiences do you have? Also, please list your current life goals and recent occasions where you worked towards a goal and succeeded. The above description smacks me that you expect to continue to feel gratitude for your great situation ad infinitum. The human mind is incapable of sustaining gratitude and quickly acclimates to a pleasurable or positive situation. For example, my family has a beach house right on the water (its not fancy - I am not rich) which blows people's mind when they see the beautiful view of the ocean - however I have long since lost the ability to derive pleasure or gratification from seeing the view - this is normal.

As much as I am a fan nootropics and everything else on here, the concept of trying to use a supplement to fix your current predicament seems misguided. If ever there was a case for CBT it is here. Implicit in your search for a supplement to fix your current mind state is a degree of learned helplessness which I think is part of the problem.

[Vieno]

I believe capctr has given us way too little information for us to diagnose his condition. Mr Kebab, we can't know if he needs CBT or nootropics or what. We simply don't know what is he dealing with. I second to what Dissolvedissolve said: capctr should take the questionnaires.

Thanks zrbarnes for answering in detail, clearly shows how you do not suffer from consummatory anhedonia. Together with Dissolvedissolve's six yeses, it appers that anticipatory and consummatory anhedonia can exist independently without any features of each others. I for sure have absolutely no anticipatory problems.

[capctr]

Naw, I think Mr.K hit the nail on the head; my life has gotten too easy. I have gone from being a welder/student, who used to spend part of the summer on a 35' boat commercial fishing for salmon in Alaska, to being a "kept-man". Heck, I even had to give up my rigorous weight training regimen after injuring my shoulder, and though I eat right and kept trim, I have been without any kind of challenge for too long, not to mention that my muscles have atrophied terribly(fortunately, it occurred to me that a cortisone shot to my bursa might help, and now, two weeks later, my shoulder is now about 85% recovered, and I can get back on track-though I think I will switch from gym rat to CrossFit, and hopefully be more careful with my joints).
I take 25mg of Adderall xr every other day(supposed to be every day, but as the half life is 8-10 hours, I am paranoid of it building up in my system), and noopept on occasion, along with a multivitamin, zinc, mag, fish oil, and a daily smoothie with spinach, flax seed, a handful of grapes, and a touch of organic agave and a hint of lime every day. I also use creatine and NO2 when I am working out. I am ordering some more piracetam today, as I have been out for almost a year, and some rhodala, maca, and L-tyrosine. I have even thought of buying a Nerophone by Patrick Flanagan in an effort to sync my right and left brain hemispheres, but I may be rethinking that.
I asked about ce2 because I know nothing about it, and though I will take different supps, and (with reluctance) adderall xr, as a stay at home parent it would be foolish of me to take anything illegal, or that may put me in an altered state to the point that I could be a danger to my children; plus, as a Mormon, I avoid anything that may violate what we call the word of wisdom-which means no alcohol, smoking, or narcotics. I kind of hoped ce2 might not fall into any of those categories, yet still allow me to have a mind opening experience that would lead to smothering my...apathy? Maybe endorphins from lifting will do it for me.
Thanks for helping me think out loud, as well as giving me some good advice. Now to go take the test.

[Mr Kebab]

Naw, I think Mr.K hit the nail on the head; my life has gotten too easy. I have gone from being a welder/student, who used to spend part of the summer on a 35' boat commercial fishing for salmon in Alaska, to being a "kept-man". Heck, I even had to give up my rigorous weight training regimen after injuring my shoulder, and though I eat right and kept trim, I have been without any kind of challenge for too long, not to mention that my muscles have atrophied terribly(fortunately, it occurred to me that a cortisone shot to my bursa might help, and now, two weeks later, my shoulder is now about 85% recovered, and I can get back on track-though I think I will switch from gym rat to CrossFit, and hopefully be more careful with my joints).
I take 25mg of Adderall xr every other day(supposed to be every day, but as the half life is 8-10 hours, I am paranoid of it building up in my system), and noopept on occasion, along with a multivitamin, zinc, mag, fish oil, and a daily smoothie with spinach, flax seed, a handful of grapes, and a touch of organic agave and a hint of lime every day. I also use creatine and NO2 when I am working out. I am ordering some more piracetam today, as I have been out for almost a year, and some rhodala, maca, and L-tyrosine. I have even thought of buying a Nerophone by Patrick Flanagan in an effort to sync my right and left brain hemispheres, but I may be rethinking that.
I asked about ce2 because I know nothing about it, and though I will take different supps, and (with reluctance) adderall xr, as a stay at home parent it would be foolish of me to take anything illegal, or that may put me in an altered state to the point that I could be a danger to my children; plus, as a Mormon, I avoid anything that may violate what we call the word of wisdom-which means no alcohol, smoking, or narcotics. I kind of hoped ce2 might not fall into any of those categories, yet still allow me to have a mind opening experience that would lead to smothering my...apathy? Maybe endorphins from lifting will do it for me.
Thanks for helping me think out loud, as well as giving me some good advice. Now to go take the test.

Cool - best of luck man! I think you are up the right alley with your exercise idea. It will hit two birds with one stone - give you a sense of achievement plus all the benefits of exercise on your brain (BDNF, endorphin, monoamine neurotransmission improvements etc)

[anon2042]

Sorry, haven't been great about following this thread.

I missed the questions from the Temporal Experience of Pleasure scale, interesting stuff. I can't say I relate strongly to anything in either the "Anticipatory factor" nor "Consummatory factor" categories. Except that sometimes things can be relaxing due to cutting out overstimulation and helping the physical aspects, like lying down comfortably, or getting a massage, or something. With food, sometimes I get cravings, but I'll even not feel hungry or happy while eating it, but feel the urge to finish. So I don't think that counts as pleasure, more like an impulse. I rarely have any excitement or anticipation but sometimes I may have something that's closer to curiosity, like, "Hmm, I haven't been there yet, I wonder what is on the menu".

On to the questionnaire:

• When listening to music of my choice intended to evoke beautiful feelings (such as pop, classical or soul) I get feelings that could be described as euphoria, albeit not necessarily as strong as "being high": I wouldn't call it euphoria, but I do react emotionally to music
• When going out with a group of friends for a beer and light-hearted chat, I get absorbed in the interaction so intensely that good feelings just seem to be floating around: Not at all
• When eating sugary foods (with not much other ingredients such as fat) such as sugar, honey, sweets and some high-carb types of pastry, I enjoy the eating experience to a great extent even though I'm full from salty food ate before: No, it's more like a gross impulse where I'll eat it even though I don't enjoy it
• When having sex (with a partner or alone), I do not only experience gratification from fulfilling my physiological need of getting an orgasm but additional euphoric pleasure: n/a not going to answer this due to not knowing myself well enough post amnesia
• When excercising for an extended period, I get rushes of euphoria and intense feelings of well-being build up: no, although I may have slight anxiolytic effects after
• When I'm presented humour of my preference, I laugh spontaneously and feel ease and happiness at least for a moment: Moreso than anything else on this list, but it's hard for me to tell if it's just a laughter response in the presence of others vs. actual ease and happiness. I can find things humourous and laugh, but I don't know if it hits me any deeper than that. Most of my responses around others (laughing, smiling, saying things are fun, I'm looking forward to things, I'm feeling happy/excited/good) are conditioned outward responses and phrases.

Thanks for the warning again on choline supplements. I never felt quite comfortable with anything other than a bit of choline bitartrate in other supplements/multis because of what I've read. I've recently been screwing around a bit with alpha-GPC and aniracetam (see thread I just posted) and I haven't noticed anything but irritability, and I'm thinking it may be due to the choline supplementing. Speaking of which, I don't think anyone's specifically mentioned racetams on this thread, any reasons, pros/cons?

Also, can someone explain why they classified Zyprexa as a "Monoamine phasicity balancer"? What does that mean, and what about Zyprexa in particular makes it stand out? I would *love* to find alternatives to Zyprexa (NOT other APs, they have not worked) as I had one of my only positive med responses on it, but I'm wary of it now due to the side effects and the fact that it pooped out.

[Vieno]

Thanks for responding. It appears that most of folks in this thread have only anticipatory anhedonia, but some may also have consummatory. I think that psychologically lack of motivation is a very natural result of consummatory anhedonia, so that could explain the co-morbid anticipatory & consummatory anhedonias. Think about it, amnesiagirl: do you lack motivation/anticipatory pleasure because of the fact that doing things doesn't make you feel anything, or is the lack of motivation/anticipatory pleasure an issue of its own? Do you see a relation between the two, not physiologically, but psychologically?

As for Zyprexa, it was medievil who suggested that it balances monoamine phasic-tonic relation. I don't know if it's true. Not going to try it myself anyway.

[Dissolvedissolve]

Thanks for the warning again on choline supplements. I never felt quite comfortable with anything other than a bit of choline bitartrate in other supplements/multis because of what I've read. I've recently been screwing around a bit with alpha-GPC and aniracetam (see thread I just posted) and I haven't noticed anything but irritability, and I'm thinking it may be due to the choline supplementing. Speaking of which, I don't think anyone's specifically mentioned racetams on this thread, any reasons, pros/cons?

I don't think there are any mechanisms for racetams addressing the main issue with anticipatory anhedonia, which would seem to be insufficient dopamine signalling. (Obviously I'm radically oversimplifying - it's probably a lot more complex.)

As far as my experience with racetams and anhedonia:

Piracetam - When I began it, I became somewhat hypomanic (not in a clincally relevant way) for a brief period, maybe 2-4 days. Safe to say the anticipatory anhedonia was gone at that point. But I returned to baseline in terms of mood after that period. In the long-term, I do think cognition is somewhat enhanced, but at this point piracetam is very subtle for me. I later learned that others have reacted with hypomania, so this is not a unique reaction.

Oxiracetam - It's somewhat stimulatory, so in that sense it's pleasant. Its stimulant effects are weak and not really relevant to anticipatory anhedonia.

Aniracetam - I find doses above 500 or so mg to be anxiolytic, but I do not have any issue with anxiety, and it does not deal with anhedonia, in my experience. Aniracetam could be nice for someone with anxiety or depression issues. Note that some people have paradoxical reactions to aniracetam and experience an increase in anxiety. (ScienceGuy, I believe, had that reaction.)

Pramiractam - I react terribly to pramiracetam. Perhaps that's just me. In any case, it makes me simultaneously very focused and unable to focus. (I can't put the feeling into words.) There's strong dyphoria, and a bit of dissociation as well. That's at only at around 150-200 mg. If I go down to 80 mg, I don't feel very much.

Noopept - Anxiolytic on acute administration. Noopept seems to improve cognition over time on my loose 1-3 months on, 1 month or so off schedule. It doesn't affect anhedonia.