188 replies to this topic

[Raptor87]

You show a lot of signs of potentially having Mommy problems.

You are in Norway. That is probably a different place from most. Still, you might want to try it my way before you judge.

Dating in liberal countries is based on primal attraction. So it's basically same thing everywhere.

I've heard the term mommy issues so many times but I've never quite understood what it means. I read Nupi's post's and I really don't understand what comes off as being a mommas boy? I also tried to google it up but only found a few bs articles.

Could you explain to me what mommy issues means?

[nupi]

Dating in liberal countries is based on primal attraction. So it's basically same thing everywhere.

It is and it is not. While attraction works the same everywhere, culture does skew it different directions. And interactions themselves are definitely different even just across Europe (Switzerland and I venture to guess Norway would be on the less open side).

[Luminosity]

Mommy problems are not the same thing as being a Momma's boy. We have an epidemic of Mommy problems right now. I believe the main cause is the lack of stay at home moms and broken homes. An abusive, controlling, neglectful, addicted or mentally ill mother may also be a cause. Popular culture is also a factor.

A man with Mommy problems can simultaneously be very needy towards and yet aloof and hostile to females. He may objectify them. He may denigrate them. He may have a dating pattern while of "come closer--go away" creating premature closeness only to become suddenly aloof. As soon as the woman distances herself, he may desperately try to rekindle the connection, somehow projecting his feelings for his mother onto the woman he is dating. He may feel the need to overtly "test" women he is dating for this or that, over and above the usual dating process. For this and other reasons, dating him may be an ordeal. In so doing he may be able to inflict pain on females to get back at his mother. He may be a womanizer, or he may feel inadequate and not date at all. He may be withholding towards females. Popular culture right now is controlled by men with Mommy problems, Chuck Lorre of Two a Half Men, Judd Apatow, rap videos, etc.

Dealings regarding a woman will often not be assessed realistically. Rejection may be built up in his mind to be worse than death. A woman who asserts herself even a little may be met with unwarranted hostility or seen as a monster. The ability to see women as human beings may be absent. The concept of Feminism as he sees it, may be used opportunistically, to get out of whatever he feels like getting out of. Any special need or use of time or resources by a woman may be resented. Tenderness, appreciation, or love towards the feminine may be absent. The time and space accorded to a woman in his world may be unnaturally small and constricted. The concept of a woman being accepted if she fulfills his narrow requirements may be deployed, but not necessarily convincingly. The space so accorded may be too small to fit a human being.

This is not a comprehensive list. Not all men with Mommy problems have all of these symptoms.

For a woman the question is this, does he make you feel you have to be less of yourself to go out with him? Does he resent ordinary things? Does he make you feel pinched and constricted? Or does he make you feel more yourself? Does he make you feel accepted, loved and appreciated? The first type of man is not worth your time. The second is. My beliefs about the role of money in courtship are remain the same. See above comments if you are interested.

Edited by Luminosity, 23 December 2012 - 03:46 AM.

[nupi]

A man with Mommy problems can simultaneously be very needy towards and yet aloof and hostile to females. He may objectify them. He may denigrate them. He may have a dating pattern while of "come closer--go away" creating premature closeness only to become suddenly aloof. As soon as the woman distances herself, he may desperately try to rekindle the connection, somehow projecting his feelings for his mother onto the woman he is dating. He may feel the need to overtly "test" women he is dating for this or that, over and above the usual dating process. For this and other reasons, dating him may be an ordeal. In so doing he may be able to inflict pain on females to get back at his mother. He may be a womanizer, or he may feel inadequate and not date at all. He may be withholding towards females.

Frankly, that sounds like a whole lot of projection to me. As for "come-closer, go away" the true reason why guys do this is simply because sadly, it creates attraction in girls. Also, shit testing is generally done primarily by women, if guys do it then only because they are flipping the script (which, sadly, again seems to work wonders on many women).

@brainfogged: While you raise a fair number of valid points, I think you should lose the anger. Yes, the rules of the games suck (badly, even) but ultimately, women just react to the incentives in place. If you do not adapt to the new reality, then you have nobody but yourself to blame. Writing screeds about today's women won't help anyone and is quite frankly rather off topic for this forum.

Edited by nupi, 23 December 2012 - 11:01 AM.

[nupi]

I can sign most of that. Your previous post came across as rather angry, though.

The disappointment comes from myself. Life throws us a few cards and we just need to play them right, who ever we might be. That's it.

Ultimately it's exactly that. And yes, doing what Luminosity suggest would be one of the worst ways to go about playing your cards right (arguably not playing them like I do it still beats that strand of advice - at least it's far less costly and less likely to result in heartache). I know what I should be doing, the fact that I cannot implement it is nobody's fault but my own - and maybe not even that.

[Simen]

The take-home message seems to be that only the sort of man who is perfectly comfortable conforming to 1950s gender stereotypes is a real, legitimate and love/sex-worthy man, and only the woman who responds to that kind of courtship and rejects all other approaches is a real, legitimate, self-confident woman. Anything else is manipulative, disgusting, a sign of insecurity, et cetera.

I hope you'll agree that that viewpoint is disrespectful and needlessly judgmental towards both genders. ---- Simen

I didn't say that, Simen.

You didn't say it, you heavily implied it. You just don't like it when someone puts it bluntly.

I am basing my posts on a half-century of experience. I tried it the other way. I asked men out, etc. I think that certain things help sort out sincere men from opportunists. If a man has to spend the equivalent of a day or two day's salary on a date, he has to think about whether he is really interested in a woman.

The exact same logic could be applied to women. Yet clearly, in your world, it is the man's responsibility to earn the money, while the woman is supposed to stay home and look after the kids. This is a worldview that most people (sensible people, I would say) left behind in the 1960s. You can claim that this isn't what you're saying, but I think that's exactly it. The man is supposed to bear all the economic costs of courtship. Moms should stay at home with the kids, otherwise we get an epidemic of "mommy issues."

The problem with this arrangement is that it's unfair, unrealistic in practice (society has left this sort of thing largely behind, some countries more so than others, of course), and needlessly limiting. For both genders.

It's silly to demand that a man spend a lot of money on a first date in order to ensure that he's "really interested in a woman." That's what the date is for: for both parties to figure out whether they're interested in each other. It's a mutual experiement, and if both sides aren't feeling the chemistry, you can cut it off right there. There is no reason (except antiquated gender roles) for one of the parties to bear all the costs.

I certainly didn't denigrate women who don't demand such a thing, but I think they are uniformed. I was. You are reading a lot into it that isn't there.

I rather think you aren't reading enough into what you are writing. I'm simply working out the implications of your words. And nothing you have written in this thread has pointed to anything but a deep desire to return to old fashioned gender roles, where men were breadwinners and women took care of kids & home. I'm sure you can find a man who can arrange that for you, but that hardly entitles you to proclaim that that's how everyone else should go about it.

You are in Norway. That is probably a different place from most. Still, you might want to try it my way before you judge.

I don't know where you're from, and I don't think it really matters. Where pseudonymous internet commenters are currently residing is not the criterion by which you should evaluate their arguments. But you are right that I was raised in a culture which is among the most gender-equal in the world. Consequently, I have seen that life without the traditional gender roles you pine for is actually pretty sweet. Maybe you should try it, because it sounds like you never really gave it a shot, even if you claim to have tried it the other way.

[nupi]

But you are right that I was raised in a culture which is among the most gender-equal in the world. Consequently, I have seen that life without the traditional gender roles you pine for is actually pretty sweet. Maybe you should try it, because it sounds like you never really gave it a shot, even if you claim to have tried it the other way.

Both systems can work in their own way (frankly, even with all the nasty side effects, I still do prefer the new system but there are definitely areas where improvements are needed) - but recommending to do what barely worked in the old system as a good idea in the new system is disingenuous at the very least. Or rather, brilliant, if you are woman who wants to have the cake, and eat it, too.

Edited by nupi, 23 December 2012 - 02:15 PM.

[Luminosity]

Simen,

I am just giving my observations of a half-century. As I said earlier, I've seen people go downhill when they didn't have stay at home moms and two parent homes. I think that's what kids need although it does restrict people's options. I've also seen a lot of women be left worse off by some of the changes in society. To say I idealize the way it used to be isn't true.

[Simen]

Your "observations" are anecdotes, and likely anecdotes gathered through confirmation bias. Nothing more needs to be said.

[Luminosity]

There's no real difference between observations and anecdotes.

I am a feminist. Even on this site I've done a lot to advocate for better treatment for women. You can google my posts in the Forum Issues thread. I have tried repeatedly to become a moderator, as there are no active female moderators. I believe that there need to be women leaders everywhere. I'm glad women can be professionals now. Feminism is many things but it is not a club for disenchanted males to use against women that agitate them. Women's roles are not for you to define. Feminists don't take directions from random males.

Nupi, what good is cake if you can't eat it?

Edited by Luminosity, 28 December 2012 - 06:58 AM.

[nupi]

I thought women were the sex with the better verbal skills, but here we go https://en.wiktionar..._and_eat_it_too

I am a feminist.

So you are supporting the same forces that you say brought downsides to many women while at the same time wishing for the very world feminism got rid of. Seems like a very coherent position.

Feminism is many things but it is not a club for disenchanted males to use against women that agitate them.

Not quite sure what that even means.

[Major Legend]

This thread has gotten weirder since I first visited it...

anyhow, I figured this out: if you need a woman to feel confidence and self esteem, then you're bound to be unhappy sooner or later, become self confident without women and then the women will come to you.

Also men are unfair too, though they are not as entitled - there are plenty of women out there, that men are not attracted too - older, unattractive, fat, unstable personalities. When we say its unfair, we're often only seeing the women who do have power, not so much different as when women say men are jerks/assholes. - just another view point, sure there are alot of good looking women, but there are also a lot of women that don't have the same amount of leverage in terms of entitlement in society, women that men actively ignore no matter how hard they struggle or try.

[Luminosity]

Major Legend, there seems to be a theme of making pointy comments about women. Is that your strategy to get a woman? Is it working?

Nupi and others, I've responded to your points. Do you have a date for New Years' Eve? If you can't get a woman, you'll have to do something differently. I've already said what I think that is.

I've said it all. I'm not going to keep coming back here and having the same arguments.

You can't make yourself larger by making someone else smaller.

I'd like to share a story about a "feminist" man I dated, "Ned." We were both writers. He admired my writing and encouraged it. He took me out but it was always something free he got through work. Once he had to pay for parking because I was wearing heels and he seemed displeased about this, like I'd crossed a line. In spite of this he seemed very complimentary and very serious about me. I drove myself to dates at first but after a while I asked him if he would drive me to a party. He said he didn't want to. He seemed kind of punitive in an underground way. Asking for any special thing on the basis of being a woman seemed to be my crime. He lived over an hour's drive from me on a beach in the country. He invited me out there to go swimming. I went thinking maybe there'd be something else. No. I hung around until he just about had to cook me a meal. He did so begrudgingly. There was some perfectly fine food in the frig, but I guess it was just for him. I was supposed to drive myself over an hour each way, go swimming and then leave. He didn't state it but it was implied we were exclusive and it was serious. A friend saw him out on a date with another woman. He tried to hide. I broke up with him. I was using his unwillingness to spend money and go out of his way for me as lie detector tests. They worked. Although he acted like it was serious early on and pressed for the relationship to become physical, I resisted. His version of feminism enabled him to two-time women and waste their time because he wasn't required to use any resources. He also used the ambiguity of modern life to imply certain things without saying them, creating a gray area for himself to misbehave.

Months later I ran into him at a barbecue with his new wife. To the surprise of everyone, he had gotten married. Her name meant my name plus little, so little me. She was plain, and had an ordinary job. They didn't seem to have anything in common. He made a big deal out of the fact that she worked and paid the rent when he couldn't, something I would not have been able to do (or probably willing). He got himself on cruise ships for free as a lecturer to entertain the guests. While he was there he presented himself as single and slept with other women. He bragged about it in a letter to someone and from there many people heard about it and felt sorry for his wife. She was home working and paying his rent for the apartment on the beach. One of the last times I saw him he pointedly praised "women who work." So he can go on cruises for free and cheat on them.

There are men who are genuinely glad for advances for women. In my experience, those men can usually do a more traditional dating thing, if the woman they want requires that. And there are men like "Ned." They use the lack of traditional courtship and marriage customs to deceive women, hurt them and waste their time. It makes sense for women to see if men are serious about them by requiring a few things from them. Men who have a problem with this just have a problem.

Edited by Luminosity, 29 December 2012 - 06:59 AM.

[Major Legend]

Major Legend, there seems to be a theme of making pointy comments about women. Is that your strategy to get a woman? Is it working?

Nupi and others, I've responded to your points. Do you have a date for New Years' Eve? If you can't get a woman, you'll have to do something differently. I've already said what I think that is.

I've said it all. I'm not going to keep coming back here and having the same arguments.

You can't make yourself larger by making someone else smaller.

I'd like to share a story about a "feminist" man I dated, "Ned." We were both writers. He admired my writing and encouraged it. He took me out but it was always something free he got through work. Once he had to pay for parking because I was wearing heels and he seemed displeased about this, like I'd crossed a line. In spite of this he seemed very complimentary and very serious about me. I drove myself to dates at first but after a while I asked him if he would drive me to a party. He said he didn't want to. He seemed kind of punitive in an underground way. Asking for any special thing on the basis of being a woman seemed to be my crime. He lived over an hour's drive from me on a beach in the country. He invited me out there to go swimming. I went thinking maybe there'd be something else. No. I hung around until he just about had to cook me a meal. He did so begrudgingly. There was some perfectly fine food in the frig, but I guess it was just for him. I was supposed to drive myself over an hour each way, go swimming and then leave. He didn't state it but it was implied we were exclusive and it was serious. A friend saw him out on a date with another woman. He tried to hide. I broke up with him. I was using his unwillingness to spend money and go out of his way for me as lie detector tests. They worked. Although he acted like it was serious early on and pressed for the relationship to become physical, I resisted. His version of feminism enabled him to two-time women and waste their time because he wasn't required to use any resources. He also used the ambiguity of modern life to imply certain things without saying them, creating a gray area for himself to misbehave.

Months later I ran into him at a barbecue with his new wife. To the surprise of everyone, he had gotten married. Her name meant my name plus little, so little me. She was plain, and had an ordinary job. They didn't seem to have anything in common. He made a big deal out of the fact that she worked and paid the rent when he couldn't, something I would not have been able to do (or probably willing). He got himself on cruise ships for free as a lecturer to entertain the guests. While he was there he presented himself as single and slept with other women. He bragged about it in a letter to someone and from there many people heard about it and felt sorry for his wife. She was home working and paying his rent for the apartment on the beach. One of the last times I saw him he pointedly praised "women who work." So he can go on cruises for free and cheat on them.

There are men who are genuinely glad for advances for women. In my experience, those men can usually do a more traditional dating thing, if the woman they want requires that. And there are men like "Ned." They use the lack of traditional courtship and marriage customs to deceive women, hurt them and waste their time. It makes sense for women to see if men are serious about them by requiring a few things from them. Men who have a problem with this just have a problem.

I don't know luminosity, it just seems to me that everyone else is talking about something different, whilst you are living in your own world talking about something relatively unrelated to the problems at hand.

At no point did anyone else tried to make themselves larger by belittling women, nothing you've said here makes coherent sense.

For me nothing you have said in this thread has contributed/help men to develop more "confidence and self-esteem". If you want to talk about feminism, and the role of women and men in modern society you should start another thread.

[nupi]

Major Legend: 1+. I would love to get back on topic here. Got any good ideas?

Luminosity: Saying that you need to change if what you do does not work seems kind of tautological and most certainly is not an actionable bit of advice. As for the long-winded story about "Ned": The fact that his behavior works says little about him, but everything about women. If women fall for manipulative jerks (although I am not even sure I would call him manipulative, not wanting to share food seems like a jerk thought), they provide an incentive for the rest of us to become like that, too.

[jeancludd]

Major Legend: 1+. I would love to get back on topic here. Got any good ideas?

Luminosity: Saying that you need to change if what you do does not work seems kind of tautological and most certainly is not an actionable bit of advice. As for the long-winded story about "Ned": The fact that his behavior works says little about him, but everything about women. If women fall for manipulative jerks (although I am not even sure I would call him manipulative, not wanting to share food seems like a jerk thought), they provide an incentive for the rest of us to become like that, too.

A bit out of context perhaps, but this makes sense to me in regards to what indifference/outcome independence means. It's from another forum, I just thought it was something you should see.

You ask: "Why would I learn to play the piano if I never cared if I was ever able to play music?"

The answer is that you wouldn't, because the whole point of learning an instrument is to become better and better at creative self-expression. You're mistaking long-term outcome orientation with short-term outcome orientation, and the two are very different things.

When you sit down at your piano to practice, of course you'll have the long-term goal to improve in the back of your mind, but does that mean you allow your errors and missteps during THIS particular practice session to interfere with your emotional state? Well, to some degree you might become a bit frustrated if you're practicing a difficult passage and very nearly get it only to mess up at the very end, but that's a surface-level frustration, similar to the immediate reaction you might have to stubbing your toe. "DAMNIT!" you shout, and then the pain is gone, and you continue walking as though nothing happened. When you're learning to play an instrument, thinking too hard about what you're doing and how badly you want to be better is what will cause you to screw up during practice. My opinion is that playing an instrument must become fun for its own sake before you can ever hope to achieve any level of mastery. If you approach practice in this way, you'll be enjoying the process so much that the outcome will become subordinate, and therefore relatively unimportant to you as you play.

As for video games, why would anyone play them if they weren't enjoyable? Sure, they can be frustrating at times, especially if it's a particularly difficult game, but the principle remains intact: You aren't playing the game feverishly with grim determination to get to the end; you're playing it because it's FUN, and at any given moment during your playing session, you would be able to take stock of your mental state and honestly say that you're enjoying yourself. Would you like to get better at the game? Sure, and if you play harder and harder levels, you're bound to do so. The key idea here is that your short-term goal is nothing more meaningful than a very innocent desire to entertain yourself. You aren't playing the game for status, points, or whatever desirable result one might imagine. Those things will come as the result of the time and effort you spend playing, and will come of their own accord, without forethought from you.

You don't stub your toe and question whether it's worth the effort to continue walking. It hurts for a minute, but you forget it ever happened after a short time, and your life is none the worse for it. That's why it's critical that you treat approaching women as a SKILL, and not as a measure of your SELF-WORTH. The latter can only do harm, and at the end of the day, it's just much less enjoyable.

Edited by jeancludd, 30 December 2012 - 08:20 PM.

[nupi]

Intuitively, that makes a lot of sense (especially the skill vs. self-worth thing). I just wonder how one actually manages to do so...

[norepinephrine]

I'm fairly disappointed that although the initial post to start this thread had some solid content, Luminosity apparently used it as a thinly-veiled attempt to push an agenda. I'm sorry to hear about your bad experiences with (not very strong or respectable) men, but I'm somewhat alarmed to see the immaturity in your views given your implied age. Most men, unlike what some feminists are known to explicate, are not out to spite women; yes, misogyny exists, especially among needy/immature/confused males, but it's not some organized conspiracy enacted from the top-down by the big bad universally known Patriarchy.

Anyways, let's get back to the topic at hand - self-esteem and confidence. I agree fully with the idea that canned lines, manipulating situations and using "tactics" are a shit way to get women - they may work in the short-term but one can only maintain the veneer of an indifferent, high-status individual for so long before the illusion collapses and one finds themselves in exactly the same position as they started. One thing that males shouldn't forget is that most women aren't stupid; they've evolved to be highly perceptive of motivations, emotions and behavior, so if you reek of insecurity and low self-esteem, it'll eventually come out - if not from what you say, then without a doubt from your body language, facial expressions, voice tone, (crappy) eye contact, etc.

Some pills may help you - but you have to ask yourself 1) what do you do in those situations that you can't access whatever substance you're taking; 2) what are the long-term implications of your substance of choice (obviously alcohol is well-favored for social lubrication, as well as a horrible long term choice; something like maca or ashwagandha, likely not so bad); and 3) what other behaviors, lifestyle changes, grooming/fashion habits or mindsets do you plan on adopting to supplement your supplements, so to speak?

It's been said before but it bears repeating: supplements are just icing on the cake. Just like piracetam doesn't magically make you smarter unless you do the hard work of sitting down to study material and work on difficult problems, taking a pill isn't going to magically improve relationship success unless you also do the hard work of going out, meeting people and getting outside of your comfort zone. As such, having a friend who is more successful then you are, or having a role-model to adapt from will be far more beneficial then just taking a pill and calling it a day.

Thus - on the topic of substances, anything that lowers prolactin, targets dopamine or lowers anxiety, I've personally found to give a subtle but noticeable boost to my confidence, sociability outgoingness and willingess to engage with strangers. As such, I've found some small successes with the following: maca, ginkgo/gotu, ashwagandha, other adaptogen herbal blends, ZMA (zinc/mag/B6, with magnesium being the most important), forksolin and matcha green tea/L-theanine. However, just like piracetam or other nootropics merely helps make you a little bit more likely to retain material or work on difficult material, these herbs/nutrients only make the chance of success (or the drive to go out) a little more prominent.

What really helps even moreso than any of those is the following: regularly exercising (especially heavy strength training for testosterone); regularly getting enough sleep (low sleep, low T); working on posture and body language (very important and very underrated, but ladies know how to spot someone in the way they walk, talk and carry themselves); self-hypnosis and meditation; eating well; wearing clothing that makes me feel good while also being timeless and fashionable (typically a collared shirt and jeans that fit, but more formal situations call for more formal attire).

Most of all, though, what matters is the willingness to go out of your comfort zone, the ability to lead situations and keep progressing forward and the balls to act at those certain critical situations (getting a phone number, arranging a date, going in for the kiss, etc.).

I recommended David Deida's Way of the Superior Man before; I'm currently reading Model by Mark Manson, and am finding it similarly mature, valuable and insightful for anyone interested in this stuff. There's no tactics, no silly abbreviations or pick-up jargon, no "trying to out-alpha" other males or act misogynous towards women. It's simple advice towards making oneself more high-value in order to attract higher-value companions. Everyone interested should read it, especially Luminosity.

[nupi]

norepinephrine: Thanks for bringing the thread back on topic with a very level headed reply. While overall I agree with your points, I will focus on a couple of them.

Anyways, let's get back to the topic at hand - self-esteem and confidence. I agree fully with the idea that canned lines, manipulating situations and using "tactics" are a shit way to get women - they may work in the short-term but one can only maintain the veneer of an indifferent, high-status individual for so long before the illusion collapses and one finds themselves in exactly the same position as they started

This is only partially true - used properly, the lines can be the bridge that overcomes the gap to true confidence - success breeds confidence and hence fake it til you make can be a viable approach. However, there are two important qualifications here: when using lines, the mindset needs to be the right one to follow up on them, IOW, inner game needs to be looked at simultaneously. Second, I am unconvinced that confidence can be faked - by the time you successfully fake it, you probably have it. So used wisely, the lines and routines definitely have their place for your average beta out there. Where he goes after using them is mainly driven by his own character.

As such, having a friend who is more successful then you are, or having a role-model to adapt from will be far more beneficial then just taking a pill and calling it a day.

Very true - question remains where to get such a person (or for that matter, a good wing man). Naturals are of limited use here (they simply cannot relate to the issue at hand) so in effect you need to find someone who has gone down that path before who can relate and coach you. I have yet to find such a person in real life (I am not even sure I ever came across someone in comparable situation as myself online).

What really helps even moreso than any of those is the following: regularly exercising (especially heavy strength training for testosterone); regularly getting enough sleep (low sleep, low T); working on posture and body language (very important and very underrated, but ladies know how to spot someone in the way they walk, talk and carry themselves); self-hypnosis and meditation; eating well; wearing clothing that makes me feel good while also being timeless and fashionable (typically a collared shirt and jeans that fit, but more formal situations call for more formal attire).

This is what I have been focusing on in the last couple of weeks (mainly exercise, diet and food). Results are slowly starting to show (I gained ~7 pounds at similar or lower body fat level - tough it still needs to go down a few more percentage points to go from 4 to 6 pack) and that definitely does something for your self image.

Posture and body language is possibly the single most important part. Aside of the few trainings addressing them in a professional setting within my company I have sadly seen precious little in that area that could help you. Books most certainly do not do it for me, here I definitely need one on one coaching. Any ideas there?

Clothing will either be smart casual or tailored suits in my case (this may eventually get expensive, I am not quite sure how much further I can build muscle without springing for a whole batch of new suits but then again, its not like I cannot afford to do so). Hair style could possibly still use some work and I still wondering if I should go do laser eye surgery to lose the glasses as I cannot bear contacts all day in front of a screen.

So I would say I have the basics covered. Or as a female friend of mine recently said: you already beat 99% of the guys I meet (FWIW, we did date on and off but for reasons of basic incompatibility in world views as well as geographical barriers, we always got stuck and went back to friends).

However, now comes the central point:

Most of all, though, what matters is the willingness to go out of your comfort zone, the ability to lead situations and keep progressing forward and the balls to act at those certain critical situations (getting a phone number, arranging a date, going in for the kiss, etc.).

This is the one area I need to work on above anything else. And since the above things cover the bases but have at best brought marginal improvements in this area, I am still looking at something to facilitate this as I clearly fail to do so on my own devices. I maintain that there are two main options to explore here:
1) Dopaminergics - anyone who has ever seen people doing coke knows why (NB: I refuse to touch coke because I am almost sure I would get hooked on it). Sadly, the only available dopaminergic in Switzerland is MPH and my shrink so far refuses to prescribe it to me. I will definitely push him (not yet sure if I want to go as far as black mailing him) next week.
2) T supplementation. Here my GP was less than helpful but I will try to see an endo some time in Jan. I won't mess with black market steroids for a multitude of reasons but T supplementation under the eyes of a professional seems like a safe enough thing to try.

As for the Way of the Superior Man, I started reading it and there is some good stuff in there (it's kind of like a pre-cursor to some of the inner game stuff of today, Rational Male might be closest relative to that, if you have not read it, it might be the single best game blog I have come across so far). The one part where I have my doubt is this whole mission business - it sounds like a sensible enough proposition, but ultimately I come back to one thing in my case: there is no mission for me. I simply do not care enough about anything to go and run with. There are bits and pieces of a mission for me but nothing that would qualify as a wholesale mission. Is that a problem? Maybe, maybe not. Will check out the Model, too.

Edited by nupi, 03 January 2013 - 10:04 AM.

[norepinephrine]

Let me preface my response by saying I'm not an expert nor a "player", and any success I have in relationships tends to be fleeting with sporadic dry spells. At times I can get some pretty good success but find myself continually having to review some core principles over the months/years. (I don't want to give anyone the impression I'm a guru on picking up women; I just have enough of a bullshit detector, real-life experience and emotional maturity to discern decent advice from dangerous.)

I'd recommend trying the softer end of the spectrum as far as dopaminergics and T boosters before going to the pharmaceuticals. In the case of testosterone, supplementing with it as a healthy young male is probably not something you want to mess around with for long-term reasons, though I'm putting out the assumption you're not >50 years old.

The David Deida book is mainly applicable to serious longer-term relationships as opposed to short-term dating, but a lot of the advice on masculinity is mature and provides a good model for something that's been a bit lost in today's world. As far as his passages on finding a mission and goal, I don't see how doing so could hurt anyone and it'll certainly help; being aimless in life is probably fine for a one-night stand but not so much when you're serious about a partner, unless they have similar issues (and I can't really see how that'd lead to much long-term happiness).

Actually, I think I like Models better so far, but I'm only about 1/3 through it. I'm always glad to see advice from someone who knows how to write and has some education; the theoretical stuff Manson talks about in the opening chapters is right on the mark with classes I've taken in evolutionary psychology (not the watered down pop stuff, but upper-division university coursework mainly focusing on going through different studies and heavy hitters of the field). Later in the book he transitions to the practical, which I'm looking forward to.

Posture and body language are generally an outward expression of your inner mindsets. Well, especially facial expressions, which can be involuntary but very telling, but also the ability to hold eye contact without being the first to look away, or the way you walk through a crowded room. I guess the best advice I can lend there is strength training (especially squats and deadlifts) for improved posture; yoga would probably help too, though it's been years since I've taken a class in that. Eye contact is something that's developed, though something that targets would probably help on the chemical end, ashwagandha, L-theanine and bacopa being safer ones that come to mind. Facial expressions, you're on your own; best advice there is develop inner confidence in whatever outlet allows you to do that.

As far as pickup lines, sure - they can get your momentum rolling and get you into a situation where you can actually get to know someone. People interested in "stacked routines" and telling stories that aren't there own are taking that approach the wrong way, though; having a quick line that helps you in some way is cool, but structuring an entire encounter around canned material is weird.

That's all I got for now.

[nupi]

As far as the softer end of dopaminergics go, the usual suspects did little to nothing for me (though I still want to try CILTEP at some point, I have all the ingredients at hand but am a little unsure about the liver effects of non pharma grade Forskolin). Other than that, it is either MPH, AMP or another neurotransmitter altogether... As for T, I do share the concerns about early age (30 in my case) T supplementation which is exactly why I want to embark on that with the support of an endo rather than messing around with steroids. I am also not 100% convinced that stuff like Tongkat Ali is all that safe to use, either.

As for LTR game, I think I am pretty decent there (after all, I somehow managed a 7 year live together LTR ). Most of the tenets of that I do naturally (if anything, I am a little to strongly on the say no/fight side), it is really the approach/early stage where I need work. In that regard, the David Deida book was interesting but mostly (to me) quite obvious stuff (in fairness, I read the first game material before that name was even coined so some of it might have made it to inner game, somehow). Even the pick up stuff by now is kind off obvious but I struggle to try and implement it...

As for helping eye contact, I think it can be forced (and I am working on it, some people claim I got better but I know I am not there yet). I never found Theanine to do much (Ashwagandha maybe, but not so sure, either) but I would definitely recommend to stay away from Bacopa for these purposes. Yes, it is a capable anxiolytic and yes, it has mood uplifting properties, but it also comes with lowering motivation and libido effects that feel worse than that of many SSRIs. Oh, and it is not nearly as sustainable as SSRIs, either.

I am doing squats (to the points where I get to see stars and it definitely shows on my legs/ass. So far, I shied away from deadlifts and kettle bells though, they simply look too bloody dangerous for my back... As for yoga, the day I decide to enroll in that class is probably the day I am healed from all my social anxiety because I find the whole thing so embarrassing (it sounds like a pretty decent way to meet girls, though)

People interested in "stacked routines" and telling stories that aren't there own are taking that approach the wrong way, though; having a quick line that helps you in some way is cool, but structuring an entire encounter around canned material is weird.

Also, good luck in trying to remember them on the spot :P (not that I ever tried, the idea seems just too ludicrous)

May I ask how old you are?

[norepinephrine]

24.

I assure you - a properly done deadlift will tear your back apart in a good way (i.e., completely rebuild every muscle on your posterior) without doing it the bad way. The key is form, of course - a coach can help, or a friend who knows that they're doing. If that fails, look at some of the videos on Youtube or read Starting Strength. I threw out my back years ago the first time I ever tried deads, but it was pretty much sight unseen lifting with no real idea what I was doing. These days I see stars and the world immediately slows down after finishing a set, but the effects afterwards are amazing; anxiety disappears, posture improves, body language improves, classic markers of testosterone going up are present (though those all disappear if lifting isn't a regular, consistent thing).

Also, I had a few of the problems with bacopa you described, just noticed it was anxiolytic above all else so I threw it out there. Part of it could have been the brand for me - Planetary Herbals. Would probably try Thorne if I were to go back, but like many, I found myself fatigued and lounging around instead of doing stuff after taking it (but not an anxious thought in my mind). Theanine I don't really recommend on its own because of tolerance, but high quality matcha tea generally has a high theanine content while also being lower in fluoride than typical green tea. I don't seem to get the same tolerance issues with matcha as I did with Suntheanine pills - but it's not a cure-all either, just a temporary mood-booster, healthy long-term nootropic beverage and somewhat anxiolytic.

Cold approach is probably the hardest thing and definitely something I'm shit at besides the typical obvious ways you run into someone at the bar ("hey, you look familiar!").

[nupi]

Might ask the one good trainer in my gym next time I see him (I think he has a university level sports teacher education, the rest of the bunch there is absolutely useless) about dead lifts). As for seeing stars, I get usually those when doing single legged squats . Come to think of it, it might be time to replace the squat machine with free weight squats, too.

As for Bacopa, I venture to guess it is not the brand - between Thorne, Swanson and Paradise Herbs, they all had libido lowering effects. I think it is a fairly good anxiolytic and provides a decent mood boost. It also has side effects that mirror some of the SSRI side effects with lower libido/motivation and potentially fatigue. Add to that the concerns over heavy metal poisoning and I think I will stick to my Prozac instead

If run into someone, it's not a cold approach :P But even with those, I suck badly. Cold approaches I simply cannot do. Heck I am too scrred to even write girls on online dating platforms...

Edited by nupi, 04 January 2013 - 09:29 AM.

[jeancludd]

Good stuff norepinephrine!

nupi: Doing free-weight squats should definitely benefit you since it will make it a much better compound excercise! Can also recommend deadlifts, they're my favorite

I would recommend you lower your bar, your criteria for success, when it comes to cold approaching. The fact that you approach and actually try to do something about your situation (long-term outcome) should be enough. Actually I think you would feel really good about yourself if you find a way to do this. Could you do it if you got $1.000.000 for it? if you had a gun to your head?

You seem to have good knowledge about much of this stuff, but knowledge isn't power until you actually make use of it. It's impossible for you to sit at home and "think" these kinds of problems away, you will never feel like doing it.

It's OK to be nervous man, even be proud that you are, it's not something that you have to hide. You don't HAVE TO be confident to talk to someone, or even to get a date with a girl. It's OK to be whatever way you feel, even if that means anxious or scared. Sometimes I even say out loud that I'm nervous and that can dispel a lot of awkwardness.

If you try to act confident and you're really not you will just come off SUPER WEIRD! Same thing if you're depressed and try to act like you're happy, or if you're tired and try to act high energy. When thoughts, actions and words are aligned, that's when the magic happens. This happens when you can "be yourself", which is why that is pretty much the only advice you'll ever get from naturals.

This is something that helps me alot, I don't fight the anxiety, I accept that it is there and go about whatever thing it is I'm anxious about anyway. This is something that you'll get better at automatically as you go. Fighting the anxiety or shouting at yourself in your head just makes it worse. I guess I'm not a super big fan of "fake it til you make it", I believe that you should try to really feel how you react to certain situations in order to get used to it and not get overwhelmed in the future. Much like you get used to taking cold showers pretty quick.

If you could find someone in real life that want's to progress in the same areas, that would probably help a lot. It's rough to go alone.

Sorry if I'm repeating myself a bit, I just want you to succeed

[nupi]

I would recommend you lower your bar, your criteria for success, when it comes to cold approaching. The fact that you approach and actually try to do something about your situation (long-term outcome) should be enough. Actually I think you would feel really good about yourself if you find a way to do this. Could you do it if you got $1.000.000 for it? if you had a gun to your head?

I too think it would make me feel good - even it failed. Question is how can I get myself to do it. For a million? Maybe. For 100$? NFW. For the gun I might simply tell the guy to pull the trigger (before anyone gets the wrong idea, I am NOT suicidal, I just also do not really fear death)...


This is precisely why am looking for a somewhat sustainable substance to give me the confidence (maybe even delusions of grandeur?) to start trying. I think I could actually deal with rejection better than my own ability to face it but such is life. If this was even remotely rational, I would have cracked it a decade ago. As for not being confident, I believe I do not come across as very attractive if I am nervous and preoccupied about it...

[jeancludd]

You should worry about the fact that you're not coming across AT ALL, you can worry about "being attractive" later . Do you have any friend that you can introduce this stuff to? I kinda recycled a friend into a wing man.

[nupi]

Difficult - there are a few naturals (highly extroverted which in itself is quite a different style) who would be useless as coaches (might make decent wing mans but most of them are in serious relationships or even married now). I know one reformed beta but he just moved in with his long term GF so he's probably not the best wing man anymore, either. The rest of the bunch are average guys who seem to have much lower standards on girls than I do and stumble around from relationship to relationship not really caring much for the truth it seems...

[machete234]

There's never a guarantee that a date will go well. Getting overly complainy about that is a sign, usually, of a lack of confidence or Mommy issues. That's a chance you take. If you talk to someone for a while before you ask her out, you can screen out some people. It's an adventure. Yes, you would be out some money. Women risk more.

Why should I who never earned any money besides peanuts in my youth and well over 20 shower women, who are nothing special, with gifts be all polite just to be allowed to breath the same air as them?
Its you who is unknowingly assuming that men are inferior to women, not me.

I really don't support deploying a bunch of manipulative tactics in the hopes that some unwary female may fall into your trap and get used by you.

I shouldnt feel used when women try to find out how rich I am?

As for my experience, is that confidence can not be faked! I have tried more antidepressants that I can count and NONE of them helped. And for the harshness of society, shy people have it harder than ever.

It cant be faked but is magically there for me with dopaminergics and alcohol, obviously hard drugs arent the answer.

What's wrong with starting all over again and just being who you are towards building what you want to achieve, if its possible?

I thought that for a long while but it seems to be the perfect script to fail in life.
Searching for your true self is something you do in you free time, the rest of the time you should ideally lie to everybody make up personas for yourself and tell them what they like to hear.

Feminists don't take directions from random males.

Random males don't take directions from feminists.

Edited by machete234, 04 January 2013 - 08:17 PM.

[nupi]

It cant be faked but is magically there for me with dopaminergics and alcohol, obviously hard drugs arent the answer.

What dopaminergics work for you (alcohol does very little for me)?

[machete234]

This sure makes you appear as a more extrovert person, combined with alcohol I felt very very dead in the morning.
http://en.wikipedia..../Ethylphenidate

The downside is a short half life and with these drugs you generally feel worse than before when they wear off so you redose. (same with coke)
I fell into an abuse pattern after trying it as a study aid (this is a great way to lie to yourself) and this is the reason Im back to nootropics now.

I hate to give people bad ideas here, with stimulants you always pay the price