188 replies to this topic

[nupi]

Yeah that makes sense - but it seems it's mainly yet another spin on inner game, at least in the first 50 pages..

[norepinephrine]

Actually, it's funny you bring that up because I was just reading a blog post from him on that exact thing: http://postmasculine...-make-you-worse

He basically talks about some of the cons/failings of the 'inner game' deal and ways to improve on them.

The reason I recommended the book is mainly because it's rooted in a mature perspective on relationships and should get you out of the mindset that you "need" some exogenous substance to be your best self; progres starts in the ability to admit ignorance, take responsibility and develop the momentum to continuously move forward. The book essentially starts out from a theoretical perspective and then moves towards the more practical end of the spectrum. I liked it because it gives a good foundation to start from, being from a guy who started out in the 'scene' and then denounced it.

Anyway, the point I've been continually trying to hammer home is that you have to find self-esteem and confidence in sustainable investments in yourself, e.g. find a hobby or passion you enjoy and get good at it instead of looking to a pharmaceutical for aid. After the foundation gets laid down, it's a matter of developing the regular habits that help you meet people, and working on the various skills (approach, being forward, physicality, humor, etc.) that make people attracted to you. Nothing really except paying own's dues and putting in the hard work day-by-day.

[jeancludd]

Actually, it's funny you bring that up because I was just reading a blog post from him on that exact thing: http://postmasculine...-make-you-worse

He basically talks about some of the cons/failings of the 'inner game' deal and ways to improve on them.

The reason I recommended the book is mainly because it's rooted in a mature perspective on relationships and should get you out of the mindset that you "need" some exogenous substance to be your best self; progres starts in the ability to admit ignorance, take responsibility and develop the momentum to continuously move forward. The book essentially starts out from a theoretical perspective and then moves towards the more practical end of the spectrum. I liked it because it gives a good foundation to start from, being from a guy who started out in the 'scene' and then denounced it.

Anyway, the point I've been continually trying to hammer home is that you have to find self-esteem and confidence in sustainable investments in yourself, e.g. find a hobby or passion you enjoy and get good at it instead of looking to a pharmaceutical for aid. After the foundation gets laid down, it's a matter of developing the regular habits that help you meet people, and working on the various skills (approach, being forward, physicality, humor, etc.) that make people attracted to you. Nothing really except paying own's dues and putting in the hard work day-by-day.

This. Is exactly what it's about.

Also this from the link (very true):
There are three issues with emotional state and the way in which it is taught. The first is that a high emotional state, although helpful, is not necessary to be successful with women or in social situations. You can go out to a party feeling like crap, not wanting to talk to anyone, and not caring if you talk to any girls, and still meet an amazing person and even have sex. It’s less likely, but it happens all the time.

Just be real.

Edited by jeancludd, 20 January 2013 - 03:54 AM.

[nupi]

Anyway, the point I've been continually trying to hammer home is that you have to find self-esteem and confidence in sustainable investments in yourself, e.g. find a hobby or passion you enjoy and get good at it instead of looking to a pharmaceutical for aid. After the foundation gets laid down, it's a matter of developing the regular habits that help you meet people, and working on the various skills (approach, being forward, physicality, humor, etc.) that make people attracted to you. Nothing really except paying own's dues and putting in the hard work day-by-day.

All true (which is why I have set out to gain another 10 pounds of muscle and will go buy a motorbike as soon as that stupid winter is over) but the problem is that all things I might actually enjoy are solitary activities that do not lend themselves to meeting anyone. Going to meet people is so counter to my personality that it will always need an extraordinary amount of energy - it will never become a habit.

As for taking responsibility, I hope it is clear from this thread that I do not blame anyone but myself for not being able to do what I should be doing. I most certainly am not going around complaining that women are oh so mean to me.

You can go out to a party feeling like crap, not wanting to talk to anyone, and not caring if you talk to any girls, and still meet an amazing person and even have sex. It’s less likely, but it happens all the time.

Just how exactly you meet someone when you do not want to talk to anyone is a bit of a mystery to me but I guess it could happen. Not all the time, that's for sure though. Certainly hasn't ever happened to me.

Edited by nupi, 20 January 2013 - 11:47 AM.

[troubleis]

Didnt bother to read the entire thread so I dont know har far along you are in your discussion. I will read it if i get the same problems, though.

However. Picking up girls nowadays has become both easier and harder.

Pretty girls can create an online profile on a dating site, or at facebook, and litterally be flooded with attempts to get a date of some sort. This has created an effect that means when these pretty girls go out to have fun, AFK, they believe they are extremely interesting and pretty because of all the online attention they get. And they start to develop some kind of "queen state of mind"(im better than you, and prettier)

Also, alot of women are looking for the perfect man, it seems. He has to be tall, but no too tall. Muscular, but not too muscular. Funny, but no si... You already know where im getting at right?

Things change. And that's a good thing. So let's see what things will be like in 5 years time

On a sidenote: if you want to pick up a girl, dont drink. it will nok work. it will expose you as the insecure, anxious, scared person you are. And women can spot that a 100 yards away. Lack of selfconfidence is often as obvious to women as if you were not wearing any clothes.

[machete234]

On a sidenote: if you want to pick up a girl, dont drink. it will nok work. it will expose you as the insecure, anxious, scared person you are. And women can spot that a 100 yards away. Lack of selfconfidence is often as obvious to women as if you were not wearing any clothes.

Yes but on the other hand they can not detect if you have a cognitive deficit that makes you unable to keep your selfconfidence in check, strange how that works.

[jeancludd]

Didnt bother to read the entire thread so I dont know har far along you are in your discussion. I will read it if i get the same problems, though.

However. Picking up girls nowadays has become both easier and harder.

Pretty girls can create an online profile on a dating site, or at facebook, and litterally be flooded with attempts to get a date of some sort. This has created an effect that means when these pretty girls go out to have fun, AFK, they believe they are extremely interesting and pretty because of all the online attention they get. And they start to develop some kind of "queen state of mind"(im better than you, and prettier)

Also, alot of women are looking for the perfect man, it seems. He has to be tall, but no too tall. Muscular, but not too muscular. Funny, but no si... You already know where im getting at right?

Things change. And that's a good thing. So let's see what things will be like in 5 years time

On a sidenote: if you want to pick up a girl, dont drink. it will nok work. it will expose you as the insecure, anxious, scared person you are. And women can spot that a 100 yards away. Lack of selfconfidence is often as obvious to women as if you were not wearing any clothes.

Lmao, the perfect man. Women don't know what they want, they just think they do.

If you see the world through society's eyes a hot girl in a club is at the absolute pinnacle. This is why you will repeatedly see successful and accomplished men go up and try to sell themselves to 18-year old girls who do coke off some dudes dick. They give all their power away to someone they DON'T EVEN KNOW AND WHO HAS ACCOMPLISHED NOTHING IN LIFE.

Question your (society's) broken beliefs, see the world through your own eyes (based off first hand experience). Realize your self-worth, set higher standards, and let other people live up to them.

According to society you will probably never be "good enough", "rich enough", "fit enough", "handsome enough" and so on, when in fact these things don't really matter.

Social conditioning makes me pissed, it's like layer after layer of bullshit that has to go.

[troubleis]

On a sidenote: if you want to pick up a girl, dont drink. it will nok work. it will expose you as the insecure, anxious, scared person you are. And women can spot that a 100 yards away. Lack of selfconfidence is often as obvious to women as if you were not wearing any clothes.

Yes but on the other hand they can not detect if you have a cognitive deficit that makes you unable to keep your selfconfidence in check, strange how that works.

We can coclude that women are strange

Didnt bother to read the entire thread so I dont know har far along you are in your discussion. I will read it if i get the same problems, though.

However. Picking up girls nowadays has become both easier and harder.

Pretty girls can create an online profile on a dating site, or at facebook, and litterally be flooded with attempts to get a date of some sort. This has created an effect that means when these pretty girls go out to have fun, AFK, they believe they are extremely interesting and pretty because of all the online attention they get. And they start to develop some kind of "queen state of mind"(im better than you, and prettier)

Also, alot of women are looking for the perfect man, it seems. He has to be tall, but no too tall. Muscular, but not too muscular. Funny, but no si... You already know where im getting at right?

Things change. And that's a good thing. So let's see what things will be like in 5 years time

On a sidenote: if you want to pick up a girl, dont drink. it will nok work. it will expose you as the insecure, anxious, scared person you are. And women can spot that a 100 yards away. Lack of selfconfidence is often as obvious to women as if you were not wearing any clothes.

Lmao, the perfect man. Women don't know what they want, they just think they do.

If you see the world through society's eyes a hot girl in a club is at the absolute pinnacle. This is why you will repeatedly see successful and accomplished men go up and try to sell themselves to 18-year old girls who do coke off some dudes dick. They give all their power away to someone they DON'T EVEN KNOW AND WHO HAS ACCOMPLISHED NOTHING IN LIFE.

Question your (society's) broken beliefs, see the world through your own eyes (based off first hand experience). Realize your self-worth, set higher standards, and let other people live up to them.

According to society you will probably never be "good enough", "rich enough", "fit enough", "handsome enough" and so on, when in fact these things don't really matter.

Social conditioning makes me pissed, it's like layer after layer of bullshit that has to go.

I dont really care what society says.. In all aspects of my life i have not done as "society says", yet i have no difficulties getting ahead.

[norepinephrine]

Nupi -

Back to the chemical side of things for a moment - one combo that's been helping elevate my mood and sociability is rhodiola+ashwagandha. Add in some maca for the libido-elevating effects (purportedly from a reduction in prolactin) and you have a nice combination that's sustainable without being overpowering or detrimental in the long-run.

[nupi]

Personally, Rhodiola and Ashwagandha did little for me. Plus I am wary of stacking Fluoxetine with a MAOI like Rhodiola.

I just got a bottle of Siberian Ginseng and Jiaogulan, the latter of which I will try tomorrow (supposedly it modulates DA). I am 2/3 through the Manson book and I do have a couple of thoughts about it but will wait until I am done reading it...

[norepinephrine]

Ah, forgot you were on Fluoextine.

[nupi]

Let's put it that way: If Rhodiola and Ashwagandha had worked for me, I wouldn't be on it . It's a bit of a two edged sword but still beats my usual state by quite a bit...

[nupi]

So made it through Manson's "Models". Overall one of the better pieces (if not the best) I have read on the topic (in particular how he warns of the somewhat toxic views that most PUAs develop). The one part where it falls flat - like everyone else - is the honest action part. Gradually tackling "harder" approaches to desensitize is psychologically valid, but ultimately there will always be a subsegment for which even that bar is to hig. Maybe it's just me, but personally I would feel like a total idiot asking someone for the time of the day when I have a BlackBerry (much less the wrist watch) always on me - never mind that I feel like everyone one would totally see through it in a split second, also thinking you are weird to say the least. Also, I have little to no issue interacting with my female peers at work (a few of them are are smoking hot and I have not yet bumped into one that was totally undoable) in a professional or even friendly/joking format - there is simply no potential for rejection in that setup (also, most are in a relationship anyhow, so the risk of getting obsessed about one of them is vanishingly small). Also the whole business about polarizing agrees with me a lot (I once flat out told friend of mine that it is better to be loved by 10% of the people and hated by the rest than liked by 50% and thought of as neutral by the others. He was not amused, to say the least) - I am a natural contrarian and just love playing devil's advocate and related things, if anything, I should do LESS of it.

Ultimately, I would recommend everyone to read the book. Some of the parts were inspirational even to me (for one, I have started to wear a suit a work even on days where I would not have too) but the 10 foot high wall of solid concrete that is really holding me back has not gotten any cracks into it. I have accepted that I cannot jump over it and apparently the explosives that might be able to blow it away are not made available to me... At least, Prozac has helped me tearing some other, smaller walls that were impeding me professionally but personally? No true advances but at least I don't feel miserable about that anymore.

Edited by nupi, 29 January 2013 - 08:26 PM.

[nowayout]

All true (which is why I have set out to gain another 10 pounds of muscle and will go buy a motorbike as soon as that stupid winter is over) but the problem is that all things I might actually enjoy are solitary activities that do not lend themselves to meeting anyone.

Well, working out is not necessarily solitary if you go to a gym where you might talk to people. Also, my cousin bought a motorbike recently and she is making many biker friends as a result of that interest.

[Adaptogen]

For a one time use...or even just once in a full moon occasional use, i might recommend xanax+alcohol.

Both times when I have taken this I have lost 80% of my inhibitions, and done some rather daring things. Phenibut, alcohol, even xanax alone do not have an effect on me strong enough to disinhibit, but this combination is powerful. Unfortunately, I remembered a fraction of what occurred. It was like I watched a movie drunk and those were my memories...so i can't really recommend this.

[nupi]

Well, working out is not necessarily solitary if you go to a gym where you might talk to people. Also, my cousin bought a motorbike recently and she is making many biker friends as a result of that interest.

Except I don't talk to random people in the gym (part of my AvPD I guess). I seriously doubt the fact that male bikers approach a female biker will work the other way round - not that I have ever seen particularly many women on bikes to start with.

As for the alcohol plus Xanax idea, if that is the only way, shooting yourself would be quicker - the end result won't differ much but you avoid a lot of pain on the way to get there.

Ultimately the path of least resistance boils down to hoping that big pharma comes up with new anti depressants faster than they poop out and leading a live of quiet solitude (as hoping for the right girl to fall out of the sky on my lap seems not a very promising strategy).

Edited by nupi, 30 January 2013 - 07:45 AM.

[nowayout]

Well, working out is not necessarily solitary if you go to a gym where you might talk to people. Also, my cousin bought a motorbike recently and she is making many biker friends as a result of that interest.

Except I don't talk to random people in the gym (part of my AvPD I guess). I seriously doubt the fact that male bikers approach a female biker will work the other way round - not that I have ever seen particularly many women on bikes to start with.

Well, maybe you are missing the fact that most people meet people through other people. People like you (and me, to be honest) often expect to be able to meet love interests directly, when we should be working on expanding our circle of acquaintances through whom we can meet others. For example, another male biker you might meet at a biking track might invite you along to a bar where a group of his friends might include women you could talk to in a low-pressure environment, which is much easier than cold-approaching a strange woman. By not making the effort to socialize with people you think are useless to you, you would be passing up these kinds of opportunities.

Edited by viveutvivas, 30 January 2013 - 02:11 PM.

[machete234]

Well, working out is not necessarily solitary if you go to a gym where you might talk to people. Also, my cousin bought a motorbike recently and she is making many biker friends as a result of that interest.

Except I don't talk to random people in the gym (part of my AvPD I guess). I seriously doubt the fact that male bikers approach a female biker will work the other way round - not that I have ever seen particularly many women on bikes to start with.

You probably shouldnt directly attract women with your motor bike but he/she meant you can easily meet new people who ride bikes.
Or in the gym you dont have to make friends for life or meet women there but you will see some people more often and socialise a little with them.
This is not so goal oriented as "go to xyz your mission is to make as many friends as possible"

EDIT: Im too late :D

Edited by machete234, 30 January 2013 - 02:14 PM.

[nupi]

For example, another male biker you might meet at a biking track might invite you along to a bar where a group of his friends might include women you could talk to in a low-pressure environment, which is much easier than cold-approaching a strange woman. By not making the effort to socialize with people you think are useless to you, you would be passing up these kinds of opportunities.

I've personally never seen that working for me. Might be that my friends just useless, but I doubt it's just that. Rather I think social circle game is objectively riskier: now you got tons of witnesses of how you screw up - that's gonna help for suuuuure... I am ultimately not too concerned about engineering situations where you might meet girls - that is doable if also quite pointless in my case. In fact, if anything, it depresses me to be in those situations and then not being able to take any step to benefit from it. Far less painful to watch a movie. The end result is the same, either way.

[nowayout]

For example, another male biker you might meet at a biking track might invite you along to a bar where a group of his friends might include women you could talk to in a low-pressure environment, which is much easier than cold-approaching a strange woman. By not making the effort to socialize with people you think are useless to you, you would be passing up these kinds of opportunities.

I've personally never seen that working for me. Might be that my friends just useless, but I doubt it's just that. Rather I think social circle game is objectively riskier: now you got tons of witnesses of how you screw up - that's gonna help for suuuuure... I am ultimately not too concerned about engineering situations where you might meet girls - that is doable if also quite pointless in my case. In fact, if anything, it depresses me to be in those situations and then not being able to take any step to benefit from it. Far less painful to watch a movie. The end result is the same, either way.

Well, if you put yourself in group social situations, there are girls who will sooner or later start talking to you and pursue you. You can just talk to them as friends at first - why is that "risky" and why do you think other people care about scrutinizing your behavior? But that will never happen if you stay home and watch movies. But if you hang out with people you should do it for its own sake and not because you intend to "engineer" them into helping you meet girls - it is insulting to use people this way.

Edited by viveutvivas, 30 January 2013 - 09:55 PM.

[nupi]

Well, if you put yourself in group social situations, there are girls who will sooner or later start talking to you and pursue you.

Rather unlikely in my experience. Not to say it never happens but I would not want to rely on it. It is also somewhat questionable if those are the girls you would want to be pursued by....

And I wasn't really intending to exploit other people to engineer situations where you meet girls, either.

[nupi]

Seems like a stack of Cordyceps, Jiaogulan and Schizandra does something for both self confidence and sociality. Will definitely follow up on this.

[nowayout]

Well, if you put yourself in group social situations, there are girls who will sooner or later start talking to you and pursue you.

Rather unlikely in my experience. Not to say it never happens but I would not want to rely on it. It is also somewhat questionable if those are the girls you would want to be pursued by....

Oh jeez, with that attitude towards women it's no wonder you're alone.

Edited by viveutvivas, 10 February 2013 - 02:57 PM.

[machete234]

I thought its this "I would never join a club that accepts me as a member" mentailty

[nupi]

Machete kind of got it right: the high quality girls have more than enough high value male attention that they do not need to pursue anyone themselves. As for the rest, I have a strong view that being with someone for the sake of being with someone (rather than being with her, or him for that matter) is NOT worth it.

[norepinephrine]

Intrigued by your stack, @nupi. Keep us updated. (Especially given I haven't dosed any of those herbs and have been looking for things to cycle with my usual herbal stack of ginkgo, gotu, rosemary, rhodiola, ashwagandha and forskolin.)

Re: being pursued by a lady; absolutely nothing wrong with that. Even if you're not being actively pursued, women will put out all types of subtle gestures to let you know they're interested in you. Guys are classically bad at detecting said gestures, but they're still there. As with anything, the more you put yourself in social interactions, the better you get at discerning them.

[nupi]

Yeah and having aspie/ADHD-PI traits won't help in detecting the signs, either. And low self confidence lets you ascribe them to wishful thinking/randomness. So in essence we are back to square one...

[norepinephrine]

Honestly, the only thing holding you back is your self-defeating attitude. The signs I'm talking about are as basic as someone smiling at you at first glance or holding eye contact for longer than usual as a stranger. The idea that someone with ADHD can't get girls is insane and totally against reality, and from the sound of it you don't have a diagnosis. (For the record, I was diagnosed with ADHD around age 5 but don't really subscribe to the label.)

[nowayout]

Machete kind of got it right: the high quality girls have more than enough high value male attention that they do not need to pursue anyone themselves.

That's total and utter crap.

The 50s called, they want you back.

I have been pursued by some very high quality girls (two of whom became friends when they found out I was gay, and went on to marry some very high quality alpha men later on).

Edited by viveutvivas, 12 February 2013 - 10:30 PM.

[norepinephrine]

Agreed. Not every attractive, well-adjusted lady fits the stereotype of passive type who puts out signals without actually making moves.