331 replies to this topic

[Turnbuckle]

Add me to the list too.

You can add me to the list of people who observed initial benefits that faded away to roughly baseline after continuous use (couple months of 2.4mg daily).

Did you tried to withdraw C60 and measure athletic performance before and after ? (as I understand we are talking now only about endurance enchancments)

Some might be talking about physical endurance, but not all. My wife (who doesn't work out) took 2-4 mg for 5 days some months ago and she was popping with mental energy. She had so much that she wanted to take over the non-profit where she's a board member and run it herself. Thank god that faded because she really doesn't have the right skill set. Then last Saturday she took a single dose of 1.5 mg and again she's popping with mental energy, though not to the same level. Now she'll try it once a week and we'll see how that works out.

[Andey]

Add me to the list too.

You can add me to the list of people who observed initial benefits that faded away to roughly baseline after continuous use (couple months of 2.4mg daily).

Did you tried to withdraw C60 and measure athletic performance before and after ? (as I understand we are talking now only about endurance enchancments)

Some might be talking about physical endurance, but not all. My wife (who doesn't work out) took 2-4 mg for 5 days some months ago and she was popping with mental energy. She had so much that she wanted to take over the non-profit where she's a board member and run it herself. Thank god that faded because she really doesn't have the right skill set. Then last Saturday she took a single dose of 1.5 mg and again she's popping with mental energy, though not to the same level. Now she'll try it once a week and we'll see how that works out.

It looks like upregulating something (may be dopamine) and downregulating with time via feedback loop.
Similar effect could be expirienced by us with testosteron supplement - it will boost dopamine at start than dopamine would be downregulated during week or longer.
Or fading effect of C60 - we simply dont know exactly without tests.

[niner]

It looks like upregulating something (may be dopamine) and downregulating with time via feedback loop.
Similar effect could be expirienced by us with testosteron supplement - it will boost dopamine at start than dopamine would be downregulated during week or longer.
Or fading effect of C60 - we simply dont know exactly without tests.

That's an interesting hypothesis; something like that could be happening, though it doesn't sound like my experience. The people who really 'feel something' all seem to be people with certain kinds of disease states characterized by hypoxia (either local or systemic) or some kinds of chronic inflammation. The improvements in these conditions do seem to be maintained over time, although I'd expect them to gradually fade if c60 is withdrawn. I'd have to put the elimination of my symptoms of postural hypotension in this category. I'm in a c60 'off period' at the moment, and might try extending it long enough to see if those effects fade.

As for the young healthy people who 'feel something', but find that it fades over time, I have to at least raise the possibility of placebo effects. When you combine the ancient gift of the gods, the fruit of the olive tree, with advanced nanotechnology, and obtain a scarlet elixir... You have all the makings of the most placebo-genic substance known to man. I think we saw a lot of placebo effects with the last brilliantly colored elixir that we were experimenting with. (The blue one.)

Even if you feel nothing, that doesn't mean that c60 isn't doing something very helpful in the long term. Or harmful.

[Andey]

It looks like upregulating something (may be dopamine) and downregulating with time via feedback loop.
Similar effect could be expirienced by us with testosteron supplement - it will boost dopamine at start than dopamine would be downregulated during week or longer.
Or fading effect of C60 - we simply dont know exactly without tests.

That's an interesting hypothesis; something like that could be happening, though it doesn't sound like my experience. The people who really 'feel something' all seem to be people with certain kinds of disease states characterized by hypoxia (either local or systemic) or some kinds of chronic inflammation. The improvements in these conditions do seem to be maintained over time, although I'd expect them to gradually fade if c60 is withdrawn. I'd have to put the elimination of my symptoms of postural hypotension in this category. I'm in a c60 'off period' at the moment, and might try extending it long enough to see if those effects fade.

As for the young healthy people who 'feel something', but find that it fades over time, I have to at least raise the possibility of placebo effects. When you combine the ancient gift of the gods, the fruit of the olive tree, with advanced nanotechnology, and obtain a scarlet elixir... You have all the makings of the most placebo-genic substance known to man. I think we saw a lot of placebo effects with the last brilliantly colored elixir that we were experimenting with. (The blue one.)

Even if you feel nothing, that doesn't mean that c60 isn't doing something very helpful in the long term. Or harmful.

I am just following Occam's razor rule (or Keep It Simple Stupid )). If something affects your mood it most probably related to neurotransmitters and hormones. I dont see any way how such small molecule can effect mood of so complex body not doing it via traditional pathways.
Can c60 increase production of dopamine or sensetivity of receptors ? - it probably can, especially if this production or sensetivity is on the lower edge, restoring this functions to normal state. Could some overcompensation occur at the start ? Yes, because body already adopted other hormones levels to previous state, some disbalance could occur so body adopts again. This can expalin why young breed of big rats didnt complain on such things - they have more balanced hormone profile in average.

It is very personal reaction - we all have different hormone profiles, my mood didnt change with C60. When I withdraw C60oo and started C60HyFn I had some difficulties with sleep (can be just coincedence) didnot feel any mood change but I think my endurance little bit lower now - I will test it next weekend.

Edited by Andey, 04 December 2012 - 02:36 PM.

[Turnbuckle]

It looks like upregulating something (may be dopamine) and downregulating with time via feedback loop.
Similar effect could be expirienced by us with testosteron supplement - it will boost dopamine at start than dopamine would be downregulated during week or longer.
Or fading effect of C60 - we simply dont know exactly without tests.

That's an interesting hypothesis; something like that could be happening, though it doesn't sound like my experience. The people who really 'feel something' all seem to be people with certain kinds of disease states characterized by hypoxia (either local or systemic) or some kinds of chronic inflammation. The improvements in these conditions do seem to be maintained over time, although I'd expect them to gradually fade if c60 is withdrawn. I'd have to put the elimination of my symptoms of postural hypotension in this category. I'm in a c60 'off period' at the moment, and might try extending it long enough to see if those effects fade.

As for the young healthy people who 'feel something', but find that it fades over time, I have to at least raise the possibility of placebo effects. When you combine the ancient gift of the gods, the fruit of the olive tree, with advanced nanotechnology, and obtain a scarlet elixir... You have all the makings of the most placebo-genic substance known to man. I think we saw a lot of placebo effects with the last brilliantly colored elixir that we were experimenting with. (The blue one.)

Even if you feel nothing, that doesn't mean that c60 isn't doing something very helpful in the long term. Or harmful.

I am just following Occam's razor rule (or Keep It Simple Stupid )). If something affects your mood it most probably related to neurotransmitters and hormones. I dont see any way how such small molecule can effect mood of so complex body not doing it via traditional pathways.

The simplest explanation must cover all the effects, not just one.

Edited by Turnbuckle, 04 December 2012 - 02:41 PM.

[Andey]

It could be checked by measuring the methylation of the mtDNA before and after treatment. If correct, there would be less methylation afterward. This wouldn't be the only case of a drug acting this way. Procaine has been shown to increase the longevity of rats (with intermittent treatment) and bind to DNA where it acts as a methytransferase inhibitor.

Step aside from our recent discussion. Is it possible to do such test ? If it is expensive we could try to crowdfunding it here )

[Turnbuckle]

It could be checked by measuring the methylation of the mtDNA before and after treatment. If correct, there would be less methylation afterward. This wouldn't be the only case of a drug acting this way. Procaine has been shown to increase the longevity of rats (with intermittent treatment) and bind to DNA where it acts as a methytransferase inhibitor.

Step aside from our recent discussion. Is it possible to do such test ? If it is expensive we could try to crowdfunding it here )

I see a number of sites that test for methylation of DNA, but I don't see any that specifically test for methylation of mtDNA. There probably hasn't been much commerical interest in it since people didn't even realize that mtDNA was methylated until recently.

[Andey]

The simplest explanation must cover all the effects, not just one.

Back to our discussion )
I think this explanation fit one described case.

If somebody gain some athletic perfomance gain then loose it while taking c60 it would be another (unexplained) case. This case would contradict with niner's experience but to correct comparison this loose of performance need to be measured somehow, because our perception of our body depends greatly on our mood.

[Turnbuckle]

The simplest explanation must cover all the effects, not just one.

Back to our discussion )
I think this explanation fit one described case.

If somebody gain some athletic perfomance gain then loose it while taking c60 it would be another (unexplained) case. This case would contradict with niner's experience but to correct comparison this loose of performance need to be measured somehow, because our perception of our body depends greatly on our mood.

That's always the problem with anecdotal reports.

[Turnbuckle]

With regard to the possibility that C60 is promoting stem cell differentiation--from reports of the disappearance of scars, the regrowth of hair, and the apparent re-stimulation of a knee injection of stem cells--there isn't any obvious reason why C60 would also promote stem cell proliferation. And you need both proliferation and differentiation otherwise you could deplete them. So my protocol is now a single dose of C60 a week, and during the off days, several doses of supplements that promote proliferation. These are fucoidan, l-theanine, and blue-green algae, along with the astragalus I was already taking.

There are stem cell stimulating supplements on the market that contain these ingredients and others, but I am avoiding them because they contain resveratrol, which gives me joint pain.

Edited by Turnbuckle, 05 December 2012 - 12:10 PM.

[Junk Master]

BTW My flat bench reps with 60 pound dumbbells have decreased from 25 on c60/oo to 18-20.

But here's where things get complicated. I never experienced the same, immediate increase in endurance after my first dose of c60/oo and endurance did not continue to improve over the weeks taking c60/oo.

[Andey]

BTW My flat bench reps with 60 pound dumbbells have decreased from 25 on c60/oo to 18-20.

But here's where things get complicated. I never experienced the same, immediate increase in endurance after my first dose of c60/oo and endurance did not continue to improve over the weeks taking c60/oo.

Thanks.
20-25 reps sounds impressive, more like strength improvement.
For me I didnt notice any improvments in weight lifting, however I am trying to stay within 6-10 reps.

[Andey]

By the way I talk with G. Andrievsky yesterday night. He said (based on C60HyFn) that for that reason they use course regimen for humans, if you sleep starting to suffer or any other negative effects occur you need to cancel c60 administration. He dont have definite criteria when to start it again but in average it might be 3-5 courses during a year. On the other hand when they do animal studies they use constant administration regimen and it works also.

[Turnbuckle]

By the way I talk with G. Andrievsky yesterday night. He said (based on C60HyFn) that for that reason they use course regimen for humans, if you sleep starting to suffer or any other negative effects occur you need to cancel c60 administration. He dont have definite criteria when to start it again but in average it might be 3-5 courses during a year. On the other hand when they do animal studies they use constant administration regimen and it works also.

Andrievsky waves his hands a lot. He believes the C60 effects are due to its "wise" action as an antioxidant, but his papers are consistent with an epigenetic mode of action. He has found persistent effects with very low doses of hydrated C60--as he says, "super-small ("homeopathic") doses." Yet he fails to explain how such low doses would be effective.

[niner]

BTW My flat bench reps with 60 pound dumbbells have decreased from 25 on c60/oo to 18-20.

But here's where things get complicated. I never experienced the same, immediate increase in endurance after my first dose of c60/oo and endurance did not continue to improve over the weeks taking c60/oo.

Do you mean that your reps decreased while you were still taking c60, or did you stop c60? How many reps could you do prior to c60?

A fall-off in reps might be consistent with some form of gradual injury or impaired recovery. My experiment with "the arrogance of c60" bought me a hell of an aggravation of my biceps tendinitis, so I'm not even working the same weight as before, much less the same number of reps. This is a bit of a special case, because I've had the tendinitis for ten years, but it was sufficiently under control that it wasn't impacting my lifting. ROS are involved in wound healing, and c60 messes with ROS in significant ways.

[Andey]

By the way I talk with G. Andrievsky yesterday night. He said (based on C60HyFn) that for that reason they use course regimen for humans, if you sleep starting to suffer or any other negative effects occur you need to cancel c60 administration. He dont have definite criteria when to start it again but in average it might be 3-5 courses during a year. On the other hand when they do animal studies they use constant administration regimen and it works also.

Andrievsky waves his hands a lot. He believes the C60 effects are due to its "wise" action as an antioxidant, but his papers are consistent with an epigenetic mode of action. He has found persistent effects with very low doses of hydrated C60--as he says, "super-small ("homeopathic") doses." Yet he fails to explain how such low doses would be effective.

I dont really see when and where he fails to explain something, let alone "waves his hands a lot" )) if I remember correctly he didnt explain anything here.

I simply retranslate sometimes that he tolds me and for me. I do it because it could be interesting to others, but he never asked me to write something )

Edited by Andey, 06 December 2012 - 03:12 PM.

[Turnbuckle]

By the way I talk with G. Andrievsky yesterday night. He said (based on C60HyFn) that for that reason they use course regimen for humans, if you sleep starting to suffer or any other negative effects occur you need to cancel c60 administration. He dont have definite criteria when to start it again but in average it might be 3-5 courses during a year. On the other hand when they do animal studies they use constant administration regimen and it works also.

Andrievsky waves his hands a lot. He believes the C60 effects are due to its "wise" action as an antioxidant, but his papers are consistent with an epigenetic mode of action. He has found persistent effects with very low doses of hydrated C60--as he says, "super-small ("homeopathic") doses." Yet he fails to explain how such low doses would be effective.

I dont really see when and where he fails to explain something, let alone "waves his hands a lot" )) if I remember correctly he didnt explain anything here.

I simply retranslate sometimes that he tolds me and for me. I do it because it could be interesting to others, but he never asked me to write something )

I'm talking about his published materials. He contends the effects are due to C60's anti-oxidant character, but the details are lacking.

[Junk Master]

Niner, before taking any c60/oo I was able to do 18 reps of flat bench with 60lb dumbbells. After taking my first 3mg dose of c60/oo I was able to improve my reps to 25, that same day. My perceived effort while lifting was also noticeably reduced. I also had a general sense of well-being, energy, vitality, and my perceived effort while doing cardio workouts was less. While taking my first two weeks of c60/oo I was able to maintain 25 reps, though my endurance did not increase.

Within two weeks of stopping c60/oo my reps declined to 20.

I've dosed 3mg a day for approximately five two week periods and while still noticing an immediate increase in energy, vitality, well-being, the effect is less pronounced, and doesn't seem to continue through the entire two weeks. I also did not experience the same boost in muscular endurance and my flat bench reps hover around twenty.

It's tough to quantify my aerobic condition because the weather is colder and I suffer from exercise induced asthma, but feel it has not declined.

One last thing, I know Turnbuckle mentioned he felt sick after taking Niacin while taking c60/oo and I recently resumed high dose Niacin supplementation for cholesterol and to improve my circulation during colder weather; and, I have had NO adverse effects. I stopped taking c60/oo approximately two weeks ago.

[Turnbuckle]

One last thing, I know Turnbuckle mentioned he felt sick after taking Niacin while taking c60/oo and I recently resumed high dose Niacin supplementation for cholesterol and to improve my circulation during colder weather; and, I have had NO adverse effects. I stopped taking c60/oo approximately two weeks ago.

I took the niacin about an hour after taking several milligrams of C60 and experienced a strong flush as I hadn't taken it in a while. I suspected that this opened up the BBB a bit more than usual.

[Andey]

Andrievsky waves his hands a lot. He believes the C60 effects are due to its "wise" action as an antioxidant, but his papers are consistent with an epigenetic mode of action. He has found persistent effects with very low doses of hydrated C60--as he says, "super-small ("homeopathic") doses." Yet he fails to explain how such low doses would be effective.

I'm talking about his published materials. He contends the effects are due to C60's anti-oxidant character, but the details are lacking.

We have a little discussion with Turnbuckle privatly and as I understand he didnt read Andrievsky's studies on antioxidant effects of C60HyFn.
Also may be I am not so good in English but Turnbackle statements about of "waving hands a lot" looks quite rude for me. May be I am wrong about it.
I think we need to do some respect to one of leading scientist on this subject.

Here is one of published studies by Andrievsky
Free Radical Biology & Medicine 47 (2009) 786–793
Peculiarities of the antioxidant and radioprotective effects of hydrated C60 fullerene
nanostuctures in vitro and in vivo
Grigory V. Andrievsky a,b, Vadim I. Bruskov c, Artem A. Tykhomyrov d,⁎, Sergey V. Gudkov c
http://www.sciencedi...891584909003669
or here
http://api.ning.com/...BMfulltext1.pdf (this is full text, downloadable version of it)

I think better place for this study is in specific C60HyFn thread but I simply need to answer in this thread.

Edited by Andey, 06 December 2012 - 08:48 PM.

[Turnbuckle]

I think better place for this study is in specific C60HyFn thread but I simply need to answer in this thread.

I agree. If you want to discuss Andrievsky's homeopathic theories, best start a new thread.

[Andey]

I think better place for this study is in specific C60HyFn thread but I simply need to answer in this thread.

I agree. If you want to discuss Andrievsky's homeopathic theories, best start a new thread.

“All men make mistakes, but a good man yields when he knows his course is wrong, and repairs the evil. The only crime is pride.”
Sophocles, Antigone

Edited by Andey, 06 December 2012 - 09:05 PM.

[niner]

Niner, before taking any c60/oo I was able to do 18 reps of flat bench with 60lb dumbbells. After taking my first 3mg dose of c60/oo I was able to improve my reps to 25, that same day. My perceived effort while lifting was also noticeably reduced. I also had a general sense of well-being, energy, vitality, and my perceived effort while doing cardio workouts was less. While taking my first two weeks of c60/oo I was able to maintain 25 reps, though my endurance did not increase.

Within two weeks of stopping c60/oo my reps declined to 20.

Ok, that's exactly the same effect I saw. It was pretty dramatic, and after I stopped, the number of reps I could do dropped more or less linearly over about 2 weeks. This is completely consistent with c60-oo acting as a very long-lived antioxidant. Muscle fatigue is governed by free radical mechanisms (see here and here), and interfering in those mechanisms allows you to do more work before fatigue finally sets in. It also makes it more likely that you'll hurt yourself, as a number of us have discovered.

I've dosed 3mg a day for approximately five two week periods and while still noticing an immediate increase in energy, vitality, well-being, the effect is less pronounced, and doesn't seem to continue through the entire two weeks. I also did not experience the same boost in muscular endurance and my flat bench reps hover around twenty.

I haven't been able to run this experiment yet, since I injured myself the first time around. I don't know why the effect wouldn't return, other than to speculate that c60 is doing something bad with regard to exercise recovery / wound healing. These are also processes in which ROS are involved, so that's at least plausible. I'm developing a much greater appreciation for the positive side of free radicals in biology.

[niner]

Also may be I am not so good in English but Turnbackle statements about of "waving hands a lot" looks quite rude for me. May be I am wrong about it.

This term comes up a lot in American science, and it's not considered a big insult. Maybe a small one. Someone might even use the term to describe their own argument, if it wasn't fully fleshed out. For example, Turnbuckle might describe his epigenetic hypothesis as somewhat hand-wavy, given the lack of experimental evidence.

[Andey]

Also may be I am not so good in English but Turnbackle statements about of "waving hands a lot" looks quite rude for me. May be I am wrong about it.

This term comes up a lot in American science, and it's not considered a big insult. Maybe a small one. Someone might even use the term to describe their own argument, if it wasn't fully fleshed out. For example, Turnbuckle might describe his epigenetic hypothesis as somewhat hand-wavy, given the lack of experimental evidence.

Thanks for an explanation ) It is always a problem to deal with idioms )
I apologize to Turnbukle for such an excessive reaction (

Lets go back to epigenetic theory here.

[Andey]

I haven't been able to run this experiment yet, since I injured myself the first time around. I don't know why the effect wouldn't return, other than to speculate that c60 is doing something bad with regard to exercise recovery / wound healing. These are also processes in which ROS are involved, so that's at least plausible. I'm developing a much greater appreciation for the positive side of free radicals in biology.

Intresting )
Last week I had idea to measure healing time for small cut on finger (I did eventually, not for scientific purposes))). The plan is fail because cut was situated on easy to disturbance place, and I extended it few times. But overall impression is ok - not too fast, not bad. Other thing is small wounds in the mouth - when I eventully bites a gum - the healing is really fast, I was surprised by this.

[stephen_b]

Ok, that's exactly the same effect I saw. It was pretty dramatic, and after I stopped, the number of reps I could do dropped more or less linearly over about 2 weeks. This is completely consistent with c60-oo acting as a very long-lived antioxidant.

Do you think that there any implications here for an optimal dosing period? I'm considering going to a weekly dose of 15 mg on a day that I don't exercise.

[daouda]

So my protocol is now a single dose of C60 a week, and during the off days, several doses of supplements that promote proliferation. These are fucoidan, l-theanine, and blue-green algae, along with the astragalus I was already taking.

Turnbuckle, I dont know it you are familiar with that 2006 study, but it seems that the better herbs/nutrients combination for stem cell proliferation is
carnosine + vit D3 + green tea polyphenols (but not pure ECGC) + blueberry

Here is the pubmed abstract http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/16522169
the full study paper http://www.nutrastem...oliferation.pdf
a patent for a commercial product containing this combination http://www.stemcellp...tents-show-1358

The current patent covers two compositions of matter, as well as their use in increasing stem cell proliferation. The first composition is described in the first claim, which is "A composition for stimulating stem cell proliferation comprising 400 mg to 25 grams of blueberry extract, 10 mg to 100 mg of carnosine, 400 mg to 25 grams of green tea extract and 2000 IU to 4000 IU of vitamin D.sub.3". The second composition is described in the second claim, which is "A composition for stimulating stem cell proliferation consisting essentially of 400 to 25 grams of blueberry extract, 10 mg to 100 mg of carnosine, 400 to be 25 grams of green tea extract and 2000 IU of vitamin D.sub.3".
The inventors went to some lengths to evaluate in vitro and in vivo the effects of their composition, including demonstration of in vitro augmentation of CD34 proliferation, and in vivo reduction in stroke volume.

A very nice write up by LEF http://www.lef.org/m...006_awsi_01.htm

And, although the above study states the following...

Several whole food extracts, herbal extracts, and specific compounds were screened individually for proliferative activity on human bone marrow cells in culture.
Spinach, spirulina, EGCG, epicatechin, withania, somnifera, carao, rehmania glutinosa, and astragulus membranoceaus did not show high activity on proliferation of human bone marrow cells in culture and were not tested further.

...here's another study (from 2010) about the effect of spirulina on neural stem cells (in rats)
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/20463965 Spirulina promotes stem cell genesis and protects against LPS induced declines in neural stem cell proliferation.

EDIT
Just saw that funkodyssey had posted about this back in 2006 but noone semmed to have taken notice
http://www.longecity...a-carnosine-d3/

Edited by daouda, 06 December 2012 - 11:54 PM.

[Turnbuckle]

Turnbuckle, I dont know it you are familiar with that 2006 study, but it seems that the better herbs/nutrients combination for stem cell proliferation is
carnosine + vit D3 + green tea polyphenols (but not pure ECGC) + blueberry

Thank you, daouda. Catechin looks especially interesting.

[daouda]

Thank you, daouda. Catechin looks especially interesting.

However if you give credit to that study it tells you that the best bang for your buck is probably combining a green tea extract high in catechins + vit D3 + carnosine + a blueberry extract, since the synergy between this coumpounds gives more stem cell proliferation than the sum of their separate effects. I dont know what exactly is that "catechin" talken about in this study, apparently it is a extract from green tea made by "sigma" (found this http://www.sigmaaldr...ng=fr&region=FR) but it's a little confusing since it is favorably compared to EGCG (a green tea catechin) and green tea extracts (rich in catechins) for its stem cell proliferating properties.

I personally take NOW foods "EGCG green tea extract" for my stem cell combo
It is said to contain "min. 98% Total Polyphenols, 80% Total Catechins, and 50% EGCg (Epigallocatechin Gallate) (200 mg)"
so 30% of catechins which arent EGCG, amongst which is certainly found the interesting "catechin" compound per the study cited above (i made a mistake talking about "polyphenols" in that sentence you quoted above, I should have written "catechins")
Relevant extract (sorry for the redundance but its probably better shown more complete

Several whole food extracts, herbal extracts, and specific compounds were screened individually for proliferative activity on human bone marrow cells in culture.
Spinach, spirulina, EGCG, epicatechin, withania, somnifera, carao, rehmania glutinosa, and astragulus membranoceaus did not show high activity on proliferation of human bone marrow cells in culture and were not tested further.
Certain whole-food extracts, such as blueberry, green tea, and specific compounds, including catechin, carnosine, and vitamin D3, were found to increase cell proliferation of human bone marrow cells in a dose-dependent manner

A little article to clarify between polyphenols, catechins and EGCG http://www.amazing-g...a.com/egcg.html

Edited by daouda, 07 December 2012 - 01:09 AM.