383 replies to this topic

[magniloquentc0unt]

reporting in for anectodes:
ritalin has no effect on me... absolutely zero, besides a bit of weird skeletal pain in the right arm,
i took 10mg and went to sleep 6h later, and slept for 12hours straight with waking up once for a minute or so. (no dreams i believe)
i will increase the dose, but if no effects are noticed at a low dose i dont believe much will change even at 20 or 30mg

also tried NOW rhodiola for 4 days (only that) and it made me incredibly sleepy: i had tried another rhodiola brand which required me to take 2x200mg a day and it worked "better", where better means it did not make me as sleepy and still raised my mood. probably the 500mg all at once is too much, i believe research shows that lower doses have a more activating effect while higher doses are more sedative, those damn adaptogens

Edited by magniloquentcunt, 24 January 2013 - 12:20 PM.

[Galaxyshock]

Ive allways had the impression that if you just withdrawal you put your body in some permanent withdrawal like state, yuck when i run out i allways avoud staying off it, when i want to withdrawal just a few days diazepam or baclofen, the day you stop you feel completely normal, nothing like if it was the same day after you stopped taking it, then you seem stuck in some long lasting bullshit. Used it for ages never had issues.

I do think GBL made me anhedonia worse but im not sure, it could also be missing the high back in the day wich made not having it in the evening worse.

I mean it seems like the acute withdrawal itself isn't much of an issue compared to how your brain adapts to the constant GABA-B agonism for a long period of time and in the absence of it (post-acute withdrawal) a gradual cascade of symptoms start to emerge. But a lot of things can affect this I know you use several substances simultaneously and have underlying issues you're dealing with so it may be hard to realize what kind of side-effects may be Phenibut-induced. And also the fact that the symptoms can slowly start emerging over several months. Would be ignorant to think that a year of daily GABA-agonist use is simply reversed in a week of withdrawal whether you use something to ease it or not.

[Galaxyshock]

Tried Cordyceps after quite a long break (~4 weeks) before my gym session with some caffeine and the magic was there again! Ended up doing a lot more sets than usually and not just go through the motions but push myself to limits and felt good. Some girl came to do squats there which may have affected my motivation lol but I mean usually I just think "ok that's nice" but now I got even a bit horny and controlled aggression and thought what the hell have I been doing the past months wasting my time. I'd say cordyceps is quite drive-motivation-increasing and gives physical stamina, so the adrenergic effect is definitely there. In higher doses it may be too "forced" feeling so I'm gonna see how this works out cautiously. I'm thinking about creating some nice adaptogen stack that would be balanced and yet effective. Cordyceps and Jiaogulan are the best so far for anhedonia (and related issues) in my case and I've been also experimenting with Schisandra which seems to give a nice clear-headed feeling altough it's quite subtle.

Edited by Galaxyshock, 25 January 2013 - 03:03 PM.

[Dissolvedissolve]

Tried Cordyceps after quite a long break (~4 weeks) before my gym session with some caffeine and the magic was there again! Ended up doing a lot more sets than usually and not just go through the motions but push myself to limits and felt good. Some girl came to do squats there which may have affected my motivation lol but I mean usually I just think "ok that's nice" but now I got even a bit horny and controlled aggression and thought what the hell have I been doing the past months wasting my time. I'd say cordyceps is quite drive-motivation-increasing and gives physical stamina, so the adrenergic effect is definitely there. In higher doses it may be too "forced" feeling so I'm gonna see how this works out cautiously. I'm thinking about creating some nice adaptogen stack that would be balanced and yet effective. Cordyceps and Jiaogulan are the best so far for anhedonia (and related issues) in my case and I've been also experimenting with Schisandra which seems to give a nice clear-headed feeling altough it's quite subtle.

Interesting. I haven't tried cordyceps since the literature seems to be lacking. What dosage are you taking? Do you notice any tolerance?

[nupi]

Tried 1 Paradise Herbs Jiaogulan cap yesterday - seemed to be an interesting effect, for the first 6-7 hours I felt more active and actually started writing a todo list for myself (which is huge, seeing that there was no real deadline looming) but I felt like I crashed after 10-12 hours and got reaaaaally tired for a while... Is that normal? Can I redose later in the day without ruining sleep?

[magniloquentc0unt]

Went up to 30mg ritalin and still no effect: on one side this sucks, on the other hand ive gained another clue to try and fix this big puzzle

(Interestingly coffeine and ritalin should give similar results, thou trough differet modes of action, and both dont work: chances might be that if coffee works for you, ritalin might also)

I think ill lift my focus from dopamine and put it on 5th2a

Edited by magniloquentcunt, 26 January 2013 - 10:26 AM.

[nupi]

Is that immediate or delayed release Ritalin? I know that Concerta is available in 54mg doses, so not being able to notice much at 30mg may not say all that much...

Edited by nupi, 26 January 2013 - 10:23 AM.

[Galaxyshock]

Tried 1 Paradise Herbs Jiaogulan cap yesterday - seemed to be an interesting effect, for the first 6-7 hours I felt more active and actually started writing a todo list for myself (which is huge, seeing that there was no real deadline looming) but I felt like I crashed after 10-12 hours and got reaaaaally tired for a while... Is that normal? Can I redose later in the day without ruining sleep?

Yes there seems to be a certain kind of comedown with Jiaogulan, for me it manifests with a bit of a dissociative effect that feels like NMDA-antagonism. Considering its adaptogenic nature these things should balance out in continuous use showing long-term therapeutic potential. You can redose later in the day, the Paradise Herbs extract is suggested to be used 1-3 times a day. I find it only interrupts falling asleep if I take it before bed.

Neuroprotective effects against oxidative glutamate-toxicity:
http://jiaogulanheal...?rid=258&tid=58

Interesting. I haven't tried cordyceps since the literature seems to be lacking. What dosage are you taking? Do you notice any tolerance?

I'm using Doctor's Best Ultra Cordyceps. I found it already rather effective at 1 capsule:
Cordyceps sinensis (mycelium) Supplying 8% cordycepic acid (60 mg) 0.3 adenosine (2 mg) 750 mg.

Last time I think tolerance built up rather rapidly and I started to dislike the effects but I took too much like several capsules at once several times a day thinking more is better - not so with adaptogens. I think the adenosine content is the tricky thing, we know adenosine is a CNS inhibitor and caffeine antagonizes it. I'm not sure how the oral adenosine from cordyceps acts - does it trick the receptors like caffeine or mimic adenosine or what... But it seems like small dose is good stimulatory and may synergize with caffeine nicely but in higher doses it pulls the breaks in the brain. The other active compounds I haven't looked into either. I really need to get my adaptogen research started hehe.

Edited by Galaxyshock, 26 January 2013 - 10:31 AM.

[magniloquentc0unt]

Immediate release, it also comes in 40mg pills and theres people that takes 2 or 3 of them at a time, but theyve been on it for years and had grown a tolerance: its pretty dishearting having to jump to high doses straight a the eginning, at this point id rather like it not to work at all, just to have some solid evidence...

Also, concerta is an extended release formulation that spans over 12hours, which makes what, less than 5mg released per hour (even thou i believe the release graph would br bell-shaped)

Also, slight skeletal pains on my right arm and slight muscle stiffness are experenced, get worse in the evening

Edited by magniloquentcunt, 26 January 2013 - 11:10 AM.

[Galaxyshock]

Schisandra is really nice addition. It does give a very clear-headed feeling and sort of opens up my perception. It's kind of like switching your monitor from dim setting to high contrast gaming mode. Makes it easy to perceive pleasurable activities and get out of your head. I was feeling very sluggish earlier the day because of slight hangover and bad sleep and was pretty much ready to give up the day to dwell in emptiness. Decided to take 1160mg Schisandra, ½ capsule Jiaogulan extract, ½ capsule Cordyceps extract, 300mg Rhodiola extract and quickly came alive again and went out for quite a long run/walk. I got a bit of comedown after I got home but redosed Schisandra and the clear-headed feeling is even more pronounced. That kind of a stack couple times a day could be my remedy for anhedonia. It's not 100% but it's pretty damn good!

[nupi]

Are you having CILTEP with that or just the stack described above? Any recommendations for a Schisandra brand?

[Galaxyshock]

Are you having CILTEP with that or just the stack described above? Any recommendations for a Schisandra brand?

I'm not having CILTEP I found it quite a rollercoaster trying to balance things out. I'm using Nature's Way Schizandra, so it's full herb but it works and has got the most reviews on iHerb. An extract could be more effective though and something I may order later on but for now Nature's Way is doing good job.

Edited by Galaxyshock, 27 January 2013 - 04:28 PM.

[NeuroNootropic]

Schisandra is really nice addition. It does give a very clear-headed feeling and sort of opens up my perception. It's kind of like switching your monitor from dim setting to high contrast gaming mode. Makes it easy to perceive pleasurable activities and get out of your head. I was feeling very sluggish earlier the day because of slight hangover and bad sleep and was pretty much ready to give up the day to dwell in emptiness. Decided to take 1160mg Schisandra, ½ capsule Jiaogulan extract, ½ capsule Cordyceps extract, 300mg Rhodiola extract and quickly came alive again and went out for quite a long run/walk. I got a bit of comedown after I got home but redosed Schisandra and the clear-headed feeling is even more pronounced. That kind of a stack couple times a day could be my remedy for anhedonia. It's not 100% but it's pretty damn good!

How long does it take for Schisandra, Jiaogulan, and Cordyceps to start working? Are they like antidepressants or like caffeine in terms of onset? Also, do you know which neurotransmitters they affect?

As a site note, I've been taking 1000 mg of Maca for almost 4 weeks and 500 mg Rhodiola Rosea for 2 weeks. I've also been doing 30 minutes of interval training on the treadmill for 3 days every week. I have to say, the effects are starting to become more and more pronounced. Yesterday, I restarted playing a game that I had started back in July, 2012 and stopped playing in October. I think I was about half way through the game before I just stopped playing it, but yesterday I just felt the need to restart it and pick up where I left off.

Another thing this stack did was restore my ability to laugh. Before starting this, I would only laugh once in a blue moon, but I would also smile a lot. It's like I knew something was funny but my brain just didn't have the energy to make me laugh. But now, I find myself laughing more than usual.

I think both Maca and Rhodiola are antidepressants and need time before reaching their maximum benefits.

[nupi]

Jiaogulan seems to be more like Caffeine (quite quick come-on but also come-down after a few hours). Schizandra and Cordyceps I still have to try. I also have some Eleuthero here, let's see what that does...

[Galaxyshock]

How long does it take for Schisandra, Jiaogulan, and Cordyceps to start working? Are they like antidepressants or like caffeine in terms of onset? Also, do you know which neurotransmitters they affect?

Most adaptogens have usually both stimulant effect (caffeine-like) and long-term therapeutic effect (antidepressant-like). I'd say Cordyceps is a lot caffeine-like (also works through adenosine receptors) and has similar kind of feel to it but also makes my muscles feel fuller and gives me some serious drive and physical endurance. If I take too much it's unpleasant and I get vasoconstriction and very edgy feeling. Jiaogulan is softer but also seems to have that "stimulant-like" effect from the very first dose. I notice vasodilation, sense of warm, "reconnection", feeling of well-being and productivity. Schisandra I think is a bit more on the build-up side but should start effecting in a matter of days. How these will end up long-term I don't know yet but that's something I'm finding out.

Good to hear you're getting better.

Edited by Galaxyshock, 28 January 2013 - 01:29 PM.

[RJ100]

Jiaogulan seems to be more like Caffeine (quite quick come-on but also come-down after a few hours).

I started drinking Jiaogulan tea recently and I definitely feel a bit sleepy a few hours after drinking it. It hasn't had a noticeable effect on my anhedonia, but it's a pleasant tea, so I think I'll stick with it for awhile and see what happens.

[NeuroNootropic]

How long does it take for Schisandra, Jiaogulan, and Cordyceps to start working? Are they like antidepressants or like caffeine in terms of onset? Also, do you know which neurotransmitters they affect?

Most adaptogens have usually both stimulant effect (caffeine-like) and long-term therapeutic effect (antidepressant-like). I'd say Cordyceps is a lot caffeine-like (also works through adenosine receptors) and has similar kind of feel to it but also makes my muscles feel fuller and gives me some serious drive and physical endurance. If I take too much it's unpleasant and I get vasoconstriction and very edgy feeling. Jiaogulan is softer but also seems to have that "stimulant-like" effect from the very first dose. I notice vasodilation, sense of warm, "reconnection", feeling of well-being and productivity. Schisandra I think is a bit more on the build-up side but should start effecting in a matter of days. How these will end up long-term I don't know yet but that's something I'm finding out.

Good to hear you're getting better.

Thanks, I'm glad you're getting better as well.

[RJ100]

Jiaogulan seems to be more like Caffeine (quite quick come-on but also come-down after a few hours).

I started drinking Jiaogulan tea recently and I definitely feel a bit sleepy a few hours after drinking it. It hasn't had a noticeable effect on my anhedonia, but it's a pleasant tea, so I think I'll stick with it for awhile and see what happens.

Had to drop the Jiaogulan - my negative affectivity went through the roof after 3 days of drinking 2 cups/day. Possibly due to D2 receptor change in my basil ganglia, but obviously who the hell knows.

[magniloquentc0unt]

had any of you had experience with gotukola aka centella asiatica? seems it should be similar to bacopa for some aspects... im thinking of giving it a go

[nupi]

Gotu Kola is supposedly anxiolytic (mildly GABAergic plus something else, IIRC) but at least the caps I have never did much for me... In any case, I doubt it would do much for anhedonia

RJ100: what negative affectivity did you have from Jiaogulan?

Edited by nupi, 05 February 2013 - 10:47 AM.

[magniloquentc0unt]

Gotu Kola is supposedly anxiolytic (mildly GABAergic plus something else, IIRC) but at least the caps I have never did much for me... In any case, I doubt it would do much for anhedonia

i was a pretty socially anxious back in the days, which has been dampened since the SSRI (and maybe Mdma) use years ago: i dont know how exactly, but the things might be connected. also, the brainfog, lack of concentration and overall lack of pleasure might be some weird unconscious reaction of my brain to overwhelming external stimulus. It seems that ADHD-I people (as i supposedly am since latest diagnosis) have trouble focusing attention on one subject and shutting out the focus for other environmental subjects. I myself feel quite this way, and was thinking that maybe the fact that my brain is "overreactive" to stuff he should not give a damn about might be wearing on the long run, and cause aforementioned simptoms.

All this is my very naive and intuitive, latest hypotesis... be warned i might find it extremely retarded in a couple of days

[nupi]

The best theories we have about ADHD (even the "PI" variant which I still maintain to have to a noticeable degree but lacking some of the more obvious outward signs of it - except my shrink does not agree which is BTW part of why he got fired [1]) imply that the ADHD brain is UNDERSTIMULATED so craves for all stimulation that it can find which is why it cannot focus - hence why AMP and MPH can help.

I would thus be quite surprised if an anxiolytic would help you there. OTOH, Gotu Kola is cheap and rather benign (just as long as you do not overdo it and run into GABAergic downregulation-related issues), so I see no reason for not trying. If you want to mess around with herbs, Rhodiola would also seem like a long shot but at least the MAOI properties have a theoretical foundation that could help you. Also the whole Ginseng category seems like an interesting avenue (Jiaogulan, Siberian, Panax etc). I want to mega dose Jiaogulan one of these days just to see what happens.

Another thought, can we come up with a way to Caffeine last the entire day (12 hours plus)? Ever since I got on Fluoxetine, the first couple of espresso shots in the day are like magic (mood, concentration, motivation) but I suffer a pretty bad crash in the afternoon that is not alleviated by more coffee, either. Can I augment the caffeine with precursors or inhibit it's metabolism somehow to make it last longer? Or replace it with another stimulant (ideally not RX because they don't want to give me any of those) to achieve the same?

[1] The previous one could not even be bothered to give me an ADHD questionnaire and instead suggested to go back on Wellbutrin which I had told him I won't do (that was a short session ...)

Edited by nupi, 05 February 2013 - 11:36 AM.

[Tukotih Doji]

That's interesting regarding SJW. It's a less common substituent, hyperforin, that has potential, so it may just be dependent on which extract you have, or it may just not work.

I have noticed incredible differences in two extracts.
The first I tried is a pharma-grade SJW I bought at the local pharmacy which is a WS 5570 extract that also have been used in studies. I found great effects with 300mg and 600mg was the ultimate mood-elevator for me. Now that I think of how well it has worked in the past, I might buy some later today.
The second I tried, due to the firsts high cost, was NOW Foods St John's Wort, 300mg does almost nothing, higher doses gives considerably different effects.

I'd just like to point this out, know which molecule your brand have standardized for. My NOW Foods bottle doesn't even mention Hyperforin, which I believe is more beneficial than Hypericin and this might explain my wide differences in results. To strengthen this theory further, NOW Foods SJW should have the same amount of Hypericin according to the bottle.

Wikipedia - Hyperforin

Some pharmacokinetic data on hyperforin is available for an extract containing 5% hyperforin. Maximal plasma levels (Cmax) in human volunteers were reached 3.5h after administration of an extract containing 14.8 mg hyperforin. Biological half-life (t½) and mean residence time were 9h and 12h respectively with an estimated steady state plasma concentration of 100 ng/mL (approx. 180 nM/L) for 3 doses/d. Linear plasma concentrations were observed within a normal dosage range and no accumulation occurred.

This means that effects likely won't establish until 3.5hrs after ingestion, I've certainly noticed this with the pharma-grade extract.

Wikipedia - Hypericin

Hypericin may inhibit the action of the enzyme dopamine β-hydroxylase, leading to increased dopamine levels, although thus possibly decreasing norepinephrine and epinephrine.

I suspect you generally don't want to mess with the availability of NE, so this is probably a bad thing.
There is also this study: http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/17254717 ("St. John's wort may diminish methylphenidate's efficacy in treating patients suffering from attention deficit hyperactivity disorder.")
But I don't have access to it, so...

Edited by Tukotih Doji, 05 February 2013 - 11:48 AM.

[magniloquentc0unt]

i had tried rhodiola and was quite impressed with it, it did brighten my mood (fact). I took 200mg twice a day. Months later i tried another brand and dosage (500mg, now foods) and it made me incredibly tired: probably the 500mg in one shot were too much.
But yes. I believe rhodiola is one of the most prominent adaptogens for our cause. And ive tried quite a bit of them: lately ashwaghanda and reishi mushroom. Ashwaghanda was mildly sedative (withania SOMNIFERA...), while reishi mushrooms did quite nothing while smelling like fish food.

[Galaxyshock]

Another thought, can we come up with a way to Caffeine last the entire day (12 hours plus)? Ever since I got on Fluoxetine, the first couple of espresso shots in the day are like magic (mood, concentration, motivation) but I suffer a pretty bad crash in the afternoon that is not alleviated by more coffee, either. Can I augment the caffeine with precursors or inhibit it's metabolism somehow to make it last longer? Or replace it with another stimulant (ideally not RX because they don't want to give me any of those) to achieve the same?

Caffeine in Guarana is bonded to catechins that make it "time-release". EGCG from green tea does that too I think.
Another popular thing is to combine Hordenine to lengthen and potentiate the stimulative effects, Hordenine is a MAOB-inhibitor and noardrenaline releaser.
Perhaps a moderate amount of Guarana and small dose of Hordenine with a protein shake to provide precursors would be the way to go!
200mg theanine or some taurine to take the edge of if that becomes an issue.



So I also added St. John's Wort to my stack and been using Schisandra a lot, and have to say my anhedonia is pretty much cured and my mood is great. My brain responds to pleasurable stimulus and I feel like adrenergic hypofunction was a big issue for me. I mean it's adrenergic receptors responsible for recognizing catecholamines and I believe to give the surge of excitation resembling either anticipatory stress or pleasure depending on the circumtances. Schisandra supposably is very helpful for adrenal glands but I think all these adaptogens have a therapeutic effect. I can train hard, sweat and feel the mind-muscle connection again. I've even had some hypomania again lately so I cut out Jiaogulan and Cordyceps for now and see how the combination of SJW, Schisandra and Rhodiola works out. Usually after dosing SJW I've had several nights this wierd sensation in my head like my brain readjusting. There is still some fluctuation but I feel like I'm on the "winning side" already. Partially this can of course be my withdrawal subsiding or psychological factors like the fact that it was when sitting in a train travelling to my home town that things clicked. I've always had improvement when I would visit my home town.

Edited by Galaxyshock, 05 February 2013 - 01:22 PM.

[nupi]

Well the Egcg I have is decaffeinated but maybe I should try a day of drinking Green Tea instead of coffee to see what would happen. How sustainable is adding Hordenine to it (not that I am particularly keen on NE releasers)? I guess I will have to research that one, also Guarana (though I loathe stacking more caffeine on top of my already substantial coffee consumption).

I have ordered Paradise Herbs Schisandra (also Panax Ginseng) but it has not yet arrived (iHerb global shipping is cheap but not very fast). SJW is definitely out for me (I even have an unopened bottle of Perika [1] because shipping crossed the day I decided to go on SSRI). As for Rhodiola, I am still skittish with stacking it on top of Fluoxetine so the Ginsenoid and Schisandra options will be priority for me.

[1] I think it was Perika, anyway, could have been one of the other famous brands, too. @magnilo: PM me if you want it.

Edited by nupi, 05 February 2013 - 02:32 PM.

[RJ100]

Gotu Kola is supposedly anxiolytic (mildly GABAergic plus something else, IIRC) but at least the caps I have never did much for me... In any case, I doubt it would do much for anhedonia

RJ100: what negative affectivity did you have from Jiaogulan?

Powerful feelings of guilt, self-loathing and dysphoria. Completely endogenous and baseless.

I understand correlation isn't causation, but it came on with upping the amount of tea I was drinking and stopped when I stopped drinking it.

[kevinseven11]

Cordyceps is a steriod promotor. Its basically hcg. Perhaps all these beneficial compunds are effective by lowering cortisol. Somebody try phosodylserine in high dose yet?

[Galaxyshock]

Well the Egcg I have is decaffeinated but maybe I should try a day of drinking Green Tea instead of coffee to see what would happen. How sustainable is adding Hordenine to it (not that I am particularly keen on NE releasers)? I guess I will have to research that one, also Guarana (though I loathe stacking more caffeine on top of my already substantial coffee consumption).

I have ordered Paradise Herbs Schisandra (also Panax Ginseng) but it has not yet arrived (iHerb global shipping is cheap but not very fast). SJW is definitely out for me (I even have an unopened bottle of Perika [1] because shipping crossed the day I decided to go on SSRI). As for Rhodiola, I am still skittish with stacking it on top of Fluoxetine so the Ginsenoid and Schisandra options will be priority for me.

[1] I think it was Perika, anyway, could have been one of the other famous brands, too. @magnilo: PM me if you want it.

I'm not sure if it's possible to mix EGCG with your coffee so that it would bind to caffeine, anyway here is the thread about the topic:
http://herbs.maxforu...ny-molecules-2/

I don't have much experience with Hordenine but I'll probably be trying the combo this week. I can understand leaving SJW since SSRI does similar kind of job. Try and see what Schisandra brings you, the Paradise Herbs extract seems very potent. I think Ginseng isn't the best thing for anticipatory anhedonia since it seems mostly glutamate-modulating but it's good to have in stock.

[nupi]

Cordyceps is a steriod promotor. Its basically hcg. Perhaps all these beneficial compunds are effective by lowering cortisol. Somebody try phosodylserine in high dose yet?

If the Cortisol route was correct (not claiming to know), Relora might be another option