383 replies to this topic

[magniloquentc0unt]

i believe we really are all sharing this social avoidance trait, i wonder if it anticipatory anhedonia is just a blanket term we all semi unconsciously adopt to describe a feeling that is induced by social anxiety or other issues. i dont know really..

[medievil]

Perhaps baclofen will help? test it to see wheter its gabab or glutamate?

[Dissolvedissolve]

i believe we really are all sharing this social avoidance trait, i wonder if it anticipatory anhedonia is just a blanket term we all semi unconsciously adopt to describe a feeling that is induced by social anxiety or other issues. i dont know really..

I for one have no issues with social anxiety and social avoidance. I'm not terribly drawn to social situations, but I consciously tell myself I'll enjoy them, and I do.

That said, many people here seem to experience a much more severe anticipatory anhedonia. Also, I experienced some social anxiety in the past but got rid of it with the most basic technique possible - exposure. I'm not extroverted, but I am not anxious in social situations.

The issues really started when I messed with Phenibut etc. and have been slowly improving since off them. It's not something I would have struggled all my life.

That's very interesting. Keep in mind that as a GABA-B agonist, phenibut is also an indirect DA releaser, so you'd expect phenibut withdrawal to induce anhedonia.

Edited by Dissolvedissolve, 15 February 2013 - 07:55 PM.

[medievil]

I beleive i got more anticepatory anhedonia after stopping phenibut, didnt get away with a script at the doc today but did get tigabitral, pramipexole (begged for that for akathisia he first said no lol) and dexedrine.

[NeuroNootropic]

I think the TMG is making me worse. I am finding myself constantly bored. It's like the TMG is undoing the positive effects of Maca and Rhodiola. I'm only taking 500 mg too. What do you guys think of this?

[Galaxyshock]

Perhaps baclofen will help? test it to see wheter its gabab or glutamate?

I don't have access to baclofen. I've got small amount of Phenibut in this "Relax - all" formula mixed with other GABAergics like valerian, ashwagandha etc. it prevents me from abusing or getting addicted to it as this is mostly blunting and sedating in high doses. I only use it for some situational anxiety like public speaking or to guarantee sleep.. I could order like 5 grams of pure Phenibut and see how I actually react to it now but I really want to stay away from it. I'm pretty sure there is both glutamate damage and still some GABA-downregulation, along with my adrenal cortex not working 100%. Considering the progress I've made the past 10 months I'm pretty sure I'll be good by summer without drugs and can even lay off supplements.

Noopept is actually heavily anxiolytic for me as of lately but also tiring and passivating. I forgot that forskolin amps me up to feeling very out-going, I took 25mg this morning with some artichoke. It has had the downside of sometimes making me hypomanic and restless - and burnt out in continuous use, but at the moment I'm feeling OK. Hopefully I could sustain this perhaps taking breaks every once in a while...

I think the TMG is making me worse. I am finding myself constantly bored. It's like the TMG is undoing the positive effects of Maca and Rhodiola. I'm only taking 500 mg too. What do you guys think of this?

If it's making things worse it's probably not worth waiting if it will magically change.. If it's only temporary side effect that doesn't last all the time you could take it before bed - if there is some actual benefit from it. I'm not familiar with the compound except that it's one of the ingredients in Craze.

Edited by Galaxyshock, 16 February 2013 - 10:32 AM.

[nupi]

do you know of any treatments for AvPD?

edit/ sorry, just saw you said it is only responsive to amphetamine

SSRI plus Schizandra and Jiaogulan seem to do something for me (it's hard to describe, but Schizandra definitely has pro social effects) - it's not perfect (I don't approach strangers or anything like that), but far above my baseline...

I'm not terribly drawn to social situations, but I consciously tell myself I'll enjoy them, and I do.

This. I still avoid big groups but that by itself could simply be a preference

Disclaimer: my shrink refuses to diagnose me with AvPD (or anything else really) but I maintain that it is either that or ADD-PI and Social Anxiety, there are a lot of overlaps between the three in any case...

[Dissolvedissolve]

I think the TMG is making me worse. I am finding myself constantly bored. It's like the TMG is undoing the positive effects of Maca and Rhodiola. I'm only taking 500 mg too. What do you guys think of this?

That doesn't really make sense to me, but you can try getting rid of it. I'd suspect something else in your life may be a confound. Has the only change been the addition of TMG? If not, try adding it in the future.

[nupi]

Isnt TMG a SAMe precursors? SAMe made me feel horrible...

[Dissolvedissolve]

Isnt TMG a SAMe precursors? SAMe made me feel horrible...

Yep. The problem is that SAMe seems to raise NT levels across the board. The pharmacological data is very weak and inconclusive, but that's what it suggests. So you get increased DA and NE, but you also get increased 5-HT. And that's of course a problem. For what it's worth, I tapered off of it about two months ago, and I feel better now, although I think that's more psychological than physiological.

[NeuroNootropic]

Isnt TMG a SAMe precursors? SAMe made me feel horrible...

Yep. The problem is that SAMe seems to raise NT levels across the board. The pharmacological data is very weak and inconclusive, but that's what it suggests. So you get increased DA and NE, but you also get increased 5-HT. And that's of course a problem. For what it's worth, I tapered off of it about two months ago, and I feel better now, although I think that's more psychological than physiological.

What's NT? I stopped taking TMG yesterday and I already feel better. Does TMG raise choline? Because I'm sensitive to choline and it worsens my depression quite noticeably.

On another note, I've been reading more about dopamine and I found out that the nucleus accumbens plays an important role in reward, pleasure, laughter, addiction, aggression, fear, and the placebo effect. I can't experience reward, pleasure, laughter, addiction, fear nor the placebo affect, but I do experience aggression.

From Wikipedia:

Another major source of input comes from the CA1 and ventral subiculum of the hippocampus to the dorsomedial area of the Nucleus accumbens. The neurons of the hippocampus have a noteworthy correlation to slight depolarizations of cells in the nucleus accumbens, which makes them more positive and therefore more excitable. The correlated cells of these excited states of the medium spiny neurons in the Nucleus accumbens are shared equally between the subiculum and CA1. The subiculum neurons are found to hyperpolarize (increase negativity) while the CA1 neurons "ripple" (fire > 50 Hz) in order to accomplish this priming.

Since SSRIs increase neurogensis in the hippocampus, this is probably one of the mechanism by which SSRIs work. However, increased serotonin levels in the anterior lateral hypothalamic area inhibit dopamine release in the nucleus accumbens. This is probably the reason why SSRIs decrease libido:

' class='bbc_url' title='External link' rel='nofollow external'>http://www.jneurosci.org/content/19/17/7648.long'] Dopamine (DA) is released in several brain areas, including the nucleus accumbens (NAcc), before and during copulation in male rats. DA agonists administered into this area facilitate, and DA antagonists inhibit, numerous motivated behaviors, including male sexual behavior. Serotonin (5-HT) is generally inhibitory to male sexual behavior. We reported previously that 5-HT is released in the anterior lateral hypothalamic area (LHAA) and that a selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor microinjected into that area delayed and slowed copulation. Our present results, using high temporal resolution microdialysis, (1) confirm previous electrochemical evidence that extracellular levels of DA increase in the NAcc during copulation and decrease during the postejaculatory interval (PEI) and (2) reveal that LHAA 5-HT can inhibit both basal and female-elicited DA release in the NAcc. These findings suggest that the neural circuit promoting sexual quiescence during the PEI includes serotonergic input to the LHAA, which in turn inhibits DA release in the NAcc. These findings may also provide insights concerning the inhibitory control of other motivated behaviors activated by the NAcc and may have relevance for understanding the sexual side effects common to antidepressant medications.

→ source (external link)

From what I can gather from this, if you plan on having sex or masturbating you should do it at night. If you do it in the morning then you will be less productive throughout the day. Also, don't completely abstain from sexual activity because of this study. Humans and animals are driven by food and sex.

Since CA1 neurons fire at >50 Hz, would binaural beats at >50 Hz help with this? In this thread people reported that their libido decreased. Maybe it's due to a decrease in CA1 firing?

What do you guys think of this?

Edited by NeuroNootropic, 18 February 2013 - 01:26 AM.

[NeuroNootropic]

It seems that Stablon induces Long-term Potentiation in the hippocampal CA1 neurons so it would probably be helpful in treating anhedonia:

However, coadministration of tianeptine and fluoxetine inhibited tianeptine's effect on long-term potentiation in hippocampal CA1 area. This is considered an argument for the opposite effects of tianeptine and fluoxetine on serotonin uptake

→ source (external link)

Has anyone here used Stablon before?

[Galaxyshock]

God damn this is dehumanizing disorder... This week I've had moments of completely breaking away from anhedonia with megadoses of SJW and other stuff I mean very good mood and total abolishment of anhedonia, feeling all emotions without some bullshit crippling it away.. all the things I've been missing for so long.. then crawling back to this shit. I've been pretty reckless last days I don't know I have things going pretty good for me but living half a life at best kills me inside. I want to be alive again..

Edited by Galaxyshock, 23 February 2013 - 09:04 PM.

[medievil]

St johns worth is the shit, def helps anhedonia in massive doses but cant afford that long term haha.

[medievil]

I beleive i got more anticepatory anhedonia after stopping phenibut, didnt get away with a script at the doc today but did get tigabitral, pramipexole (begged for that for akathisia he first said no lol) and dexedrine.

Tiapride abolished the anti anhedonic effects of stimulants and also the anticipatory anhedonic benefits, it blocks D4 compared with amisulpiride, perhaps blockade of this receptor is a big nono in this sort of issues, altough ive read it also has affinity for D1.

For ppl that want to try take low dose amisulpiride to prevent the negatives of acute high doses of rotigotine or bromocriptine, and see wheter added D1 or D4 agonism allevates this issue, i never noticed a negative effect of D2/D3 antagonism.

Pramipexole is shit to experiment with, its not as strong on D3 so prami's d3 agonism made me want to gamble lol. And acts on same receptors, altough comorbid use is def of benefit for shizo due to binding to differened types of D2 but anyway thats not for this thread.

Edited by medievil, 27 February 2013 - 06:39 PM.

[airplanepeanuts]

St johns worth is the shit, def helps anhedonia in massive doses but cant afford that long term haha.

It helped me too. Too bad it gave me a rash. Also it made me gain weight and sluggish.
I don't think it's safe in massive doses.

[NeuroNootropic]

It's been a week since I stopped taking Rhodiola and I can definitely notice a difference. I'm back to needing to sleep for 12 hours or more, but my sleep is bit deeper. I've also noticed that my anhedonia has improved just a bit. It's weird because in the first 2 weeks of taking Rhodiola I had many benefits, but after that they just went away.

Rhodiola is a MAOI so I'm guessing that after 2 weeks some of the serotonin receptors either upregulate or downregulate. Maybe one that's involved in dopamine and norepinephrine release? Rhodiola is also most definitely a reversible MAOI. The effects went away only after 3 days of discontinuation. But my nipples are still puffy. I'm not sure why that is, maybe it's the Maca.

I'm still taking the Maca, it seems like it's the only thing that works long term. I'm going to try Cordyceps next. I've read that Cordyceps is a MAO-B inhibitor so it should improve anhedonia.

Are you guys having any success with your stacks?

[medievil]

Who tried baclofen with selegiline here? seems that has the most potential?

[brainslugged]

i believe we really are all sharing this social avoidance trait, i wonder if it anticipatory anhedonia is just a blanket term we all semi unconsciously adopt to describe a feeling that is induced by social anxiety or other issues. i dont know really..

I do have strong social avoidance. I think that this could either support the hypothesis that it is based on dopamine, or it could indicate that, perhaps it is a RESULT of social avoidance. In either case, MAOIs or stimulants could be helpful.

If you have social avoidance, have you tried sulbutiamine? I find it is ineffective for myself, but it has been shown to decrease shyness.

[medievil]

I got avpd and find sulbutiamine ineffective.

[Galaxyshock]

I'm doing very well with moderate-high doses of SJW. I was up to 1800-2400mg/day but cut it down to 900mg and now I'm only gonna take one 300mg cap a day as I'm running out. I'm using the cheap NOW brand extract it's definitely not as potent as Kira (at least not as serotonergic) but a ton cheaper, so good for high-dosing. I find SJW makes me respond to everything better. Mucuna augments it as it's potent dopamine boost, seems to help with the avpd issues and is pro-testosterone etc. Hell I've even been doing some approaching lately. Licorice in 3-5g/day seems to have restored something in my brain back (cortisol?) as I actually notice my brain capable of the "fight-or-flight" reaction after looong time of.. nothing.

I'd say a supplement regimen for anhedonia could consist of:

"True" anti-depressant: SJW, SSRI...

Ginseng-like adaptogen: Ginseng (Panax, American..), Eleuthero or Jiaogulan

As needed:

Adrenal support: Licorice, Schisandra, Ashwagandha, Maca...

Energy: Rhodiola, Cordyceps, Reishi

Additional: Mucuna, stimulants, anxiolytics..

Not all at once of course. I tend to start throwing a bunch of stuff when I find helpful things but may end-up hyperstimulated or something.. so caution is adviced.
Phenibut even as low as 250mg seems helpful for sociable behavior. Just got to watch out that I don't make it a habit again but I only have a 10g patch. Theanine should prevent tolerance.

[Galaxyshock]

Anyone tried Catuaba?

http://www.longecity...py-does-it-you/

Seems like a potent herbal antidepressive-stimulant to fight anhedonia. I'm gonna order a bottle and try it when I run out of SJW.

[NeuroNootropic]

I've read about Catuaba, but have never tried it. There's only 2 pill forms of it on iHerb and one of them has a lot of bad reviews while the other has only Japanese reviews. Also, the Action Labs one has many other herbs in it and is not pure Catuaba so that leaves the Solaray one.

What do you think? Abelard lindsay from the thread you linked says the Solaray one is good.

[medievil]

Im concerned about st johns wort ability to induce liver enzymes and p glycoprotein, wondering wheter i need massive black pepper doses to overwrite it in case they fight eachother, also wonder wheter black pepper potentias st johns worth or st johns worth eliminates black pepper.

[Galaxyshock]

I've read about Catuaba, but have never tried it. There's only 2 pill forms of it on iHerb and one of them has a lot of bad reviews while the other has only Japanese reviews. Also, the Action Labs one has many other herbs in it and is not pure Catuaba so that leaves the Solaray one.

What do you think? Abelard lindsay from the thread you linked says the Solaray one is good.

I ordered Solaray brand Catuaba. Should recieve it in few weeks and I'll report then.

[magniloquentc0unt]

Has any of you ever tried Provigil? I have been the last couple of days (following my dere/deper sonalization hypothesis) and i must say its (again) not doing much (if anything...)

[chris106]

Damn, first of I have to say: This is the single most interesting and informative thread I have stumbled upon since i started browsing longecity a few weeks back!

Just read the whole thing in one go, and a few ideas popped up in my mind - For now I'll try to just briefly touch on them, since I have a doctor's appointment in 2 Hours, and have to get going soon. I'll elaborate more and provide sources maybe tonight/ tomorrow.

Soooo....

It was mentioned a while back in this thread, that too much cholinergic activity could be one cause for distortion in dopamine-release and hence for AA. It was also mentioned that sleep(phase) -disorders may cause distortion in dopamine-release.

Here's some food for thought: Have any of you been (thoroughly) tested for any kind of sleep-disorder ( as in several days of sleep supervision in a reknown sleep-laboratory?). Many sleep disorders actually have physical causes, like jaw-dysplasia, to name just one example.
Personally, I've been told that I have extremely noisy sleep-apnoa (right word in english?) all my life. I got it tested twice in the past, but only with a portable breathing-mask to take home for one night, which doesn't measure brain-waves and sleep-phases.Also this method is more than sluggish diagnotically, can elaborate on this later, if wanted...
If a a lack of oxygen and or dleyed sleep-phases are the cause of neurological symptoms, and their cause again is physical, one would have to at least conscider this as the possible true root of distorted brain chemistry, too.

I'm gonna get this shit tested for real soon. Maybe of no importance after all, of course. Just thought I'd mention it, becuase most people would'nt possibly make this assumption (I didn't conscider it till recently)

The thing is, I was diagnosed ADD as an adult, and have many symptoms that fir the AA-descriptions here, as well. Ritalin helped for a few years, but side effects became unbearable after chronic use. Then tried amphetamines for a few months, then Modalert (generic)

The modalert was the only one I could bare, but I wouldn't want to take that long-term, either.
Now I'm trying noopept, and I also noticed that taking choline-bitatrate along with it decreases the positive effects and makes me feel worse. Maybe I am one of those with too high cholinergic-activity and maybe my sleep disorder is (partially) the reason?

Also to the use of ritalin or amphetmaines I can only say:
While they seemed like the best thing ever for me at first, in retrospect I wish I hadn't taken them, since they gave me a weird kind of "fake" motivation and hypomania sometimes, making me make some dumb decisions.
I think taking either of them longterm should be ones's very last option if everything else fails. Even MPH (Ritalin) is in my opinion much riskier than it's made out to be - and I've taken pretty much every form of it, retarded-release or instant-working, too.

Sorry if my thoughts seem jumpy and incohesive, but as I said, I'm quit in a hurry right now, and wanted to throw my two cents in real quick.

Will elaborate on some points later!

Looking forward to your thoughts on this!

[chris106]

Oh, and lastly:

Has any of you ever tried Provigil? I have been the last couple of days (following my dere/deper sonalization hypothesis) and i must say its (again) not doing much (if anything...)

How much are you taking? I tried both generic modafinil (I think this resembles provigil?) and generic nuvigil in february, after quitting the amphetamines for good. They both worked way more pleasant than MPH or Amph - making me focussed and awake, without giving me a "fake", edgy boost. But lorenace can develop quickly, especially if taken too late in the day, as they can then fuck up your sleep cycle even more.
I'll have to say that Modafinil, being a racemat, worked somewat better/ more pleasant than Nuvigil. Keep in mind that those were generics though, not the real brand meds - which supposedly can work a little better/ stronger.

But especially if you too use a generic form, you might want to up the dose a bit more before writing it off. But as I said, don't take it too late in the day.

[magniloquentc0unt]

Oh, and lastly:

Has any of you ever tried Provigil? I have been the last couple of days (following my dere/deper sonalization hypothesis) and i must say its (again) not doing much (if anything...)

How much are you taking? I tried both generic modafinil (I think this resembles provigil?) and generic nuvigil in february, after quitting the amphetamines for good. They both worked way more pleasant than MPH or Amph - making me focussed and awake, without giving me a "fake", edgy boost. But lorenace can develop quickly, especially if taken too late in the day, as they can then fuck up your sleep cycle even more.
I'll have to say that Modafinil, being a racemat, worked somewat better/ more pleasant than Nuvigil. Keep in mind that those were generics though, not the real brand meds - which supposedly can work a little better/ stronger.

But especially if you too use a generic form, you might want to up the dose a bit more before writing it off. But as I said, don't take it too late in the day.

Ive tried a brand called Modasomil, prescribed and bought in switzerland... So it probably the real thing.. tried dosing first 100mg, then 100morning 100afternoon, then 200morning... Youre right, i should probably try up to 300+100 and see what happens..

[chris106]

Ive tried a brand called Modasomil, prescribed and bought in switzerland... So it probably the real thing.. tried dosing first 100mg, then 100morning 100afternoon, then 200morning... Youre right, i should probably try up to 300+100 and see what happens..

Well... actually more than 200mg per single dose will probably have no extra benefits, at least that's what I mostly read. In fact, few people react paradox to Modafinil, meaning low doses of 50 mg might work as good if not better than 200mg. And I really wouldn't go over 500mg max per day, that is really plenty and more won't have any benefits but fuck with your sleep too badly.

Also it's nothing you wanna take chronically for too long, it's actual working mechanism not being known and all... I guess it's nice ocassionaly, but long term use only makes sense if you are a hardcore narcoleptic or have another severe sleep-disorder ( excuse me if you actually do )


Also, I just remembered a point regarding AA I forgot before:

I also read in another forum, that some people might not be able to transform choline-sources further and let it reach the brain because they have a choline-transporter- or enzyme- deficiany or something. For people like this even more bioavailable and BBB crossing forms of choline-sources can't be properly transformed to their active and working form and/or not be properly transported to the brain where it should do it's work.
However, it was claimed that Alcar can help in that regard since it has the quality to enhance the transportation and transformation of choline to and in the brain.
In that case choline-overactivity wouldn't be the culprid, but the crippling of it's working mechanism in the brain. And the more you take, the worse it gets, not because it's doing too much of what it should do (as in over-activity), but instead a sub-form of it is doing something different entirely?

( Excuse my sluggish choice of words, BTW - I hope you guys get what I'm trying to say. English is not my native tongue and I'm just beginning to understand a few basics of neuro-chemistry from reading a lot of threads here :p)


EDIT: Well, actually did find the link:

http://www.socialanx...49/#post1802562

I recently tried choline bitartrate, I actually purchased it as powder so that I could increase dose cheaply if necessary. I would also add that choline in food is normally in the form of phosphatidylcholine, and these different forms may have differetn activities.

Anyway I found that I got a headache (as the previous poster stated), but it made my anxiety worse. Or more specifically I suffer from what I would describe as hyper-vigilance and choline bitartrate made this worse. This is interesting though because (for me) it points to a potential problem with acetylcholine and the cholinergic neurotransmitter system(s). Interestingly I found a couple of references on the web of people having a negative response with choline but a positive response to acetyl-L-carnitine (ALCAR) - which I think provides acetyl groups for synthesis of acetylcholine.

and the following post:

http://www.socialanx...49/#post1817125

Choline is a precercor to trimthylamine, which some persons are not able to break down due to a genetic disorder called trimthylamunjra. Persons suffering from this disorder may suffer from a strong fishy or otherwise unpleasant body order, due to the body's release of odorous trimethylamine. A body odor will occur even on a normal diet – i.e., one that is not particularly high in choline. Persons with trimethylaminuria are advised to restrict the intake of foods high in choline; this may help to reduce the sufferer's body odor

What do you guys make of this, relevant regarding this topic?

Edited by chris106, 21 March 2013 - 04:41 PM.