383 replies to this topic

[chris106]

Does anyone know if it's safe to combine SAM-e with the adaptogen combo (SJW, Panax Ginseng, Jiaogulan, Bacopa and eventually Rhodiola) mentioned above?

SAM-e is one of the things I desperately want to try, because of from what I can tell from anecdotes, whether it works for me or not could help me determine where my actual problem or the cause of my anhedonia lies.

I'm not certain what to think about the whole over- or under methylator theory, it's more about finding out if my problem is solely of dopaminergic nature (add-pi diagnosis),
or if low serotonine actually plays a part too. (I might has well have too much Serotonine going on, for all that I know)

I would of course also be hesitant to start with SAM-e before I've given the adaptogen-combo itself enough time to show it's efficiancy. But once a few weeks in, I would really like to try SAM-e as well (unless of course, my problems should totally diminsh by then). So is it generally safe to take it in addition?

(also finally getting motivated enough to read and learn more about the various receptors, Transporters and working-mechanisms in general, so that in a few weeks/months time from now, I won't have to ask stupid standard questions like the one above I guess the stuff is slowly starting to show effects allready...)

[Dissolvedissolve]

Does anyone know if it's safe to combine SAM-e with the adaptogen combo (SJW, Panax Ginseng, Jiaogulan, Bacopa and eventually Rhodiola) mentioned above?

First of all, SJW does not mix well with very much. If you treat it as an MAOI, that means you can't mix it with adrenergics (risk of hypertensive crisis) or serotonergics (risk of serotonin syndrome). Now realistically, it's not a very intense MAOI, so those risks are pretty low, but they do theoretically exist.

Now let's treat it as a reuptake inhibitor, which it definitely is, with notable affinities for NE, DA, GABA, and 5-HT (it also inhibits glutamate reuptake, but the IC50 is so low as to probably not be relevant). So you can't mix it with serotonin releasers (ie MDMA would be a very bad idea). You probably shouldn't mix it with catecholamine releasers (ie amphetamine is functionally a releaser by reversing DAT flow).

It also induces certain liver enzymes which can affect bloodstream concentrations of other drugs.

Now SAMe is not very well understood, unfortunately. I've read a good number of articles on it, and there was speculation that it causes NT release of a variety of kinds. Now in that case, you definitely do not want to mix it with SJW. You could probably mix it with ginseng and jiaogulan. I can't speak to the safety of rhodiola and bacopa with it. I'd encourage caution with bacopa since it often causes sedation. For me, personally, the sedation never went away, and it worsened my anticipatory anhedonia in the ~3-4 months I used it.

I'd encourage you to try one supplement at a time. Don't start with a bunch because you'll have no idea what's working and what isn't.

[chris106]

Thanx for your elaborate answer! Yeah, I'm really on the fence with Bacopa. There's just so much conflicting information on it, and I totally can't stand anything that sedates me too much/ dulls me down...

Well, I guess I'll try Jiaogulan instead of Bacopa with SJW and Panx Ginseng for the time being, then. Seemed to work well for Galaxyshock, too. Will save the Bacop as a last resort, should the rest get too stimulating (which I highly doubt ATM).

Regarding SAM-e - I guess I'll give it a try some time soon and start with really low doses. It's just such a pain in the ass having to whait several weeks to determine wether a single compound is usefull or not... -_-'

[Galaxyshock]

St. John's is generally safe and won't get you in trouble. The MAOI effects are nothing like pharmaceutical irreversible MAOIs (no need to worry about tyramine etc.) and the reuptake-inhibition is balanced by the neuroprotective and calming effects of SJW: NMDA-antagonism (http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/16936454) and GABA-increase. I mean medievil stacks it with SSRI, amphetamines and other stuff - well he's a crazy guy and those stacks aren't for average person, but still, it's not SJW that's gonna primarily cause problems. But of course caution is adviced since it has potent effects, so I probably wouldn't go using MDMA or tripping on LSD when using it. SAM-e I'm not familiar with, but if it has serotonin syndrome promoting dangers with serotonergic compounds then careful approach is always smart.

Bacopa goes fine with SJW, I really like the serotonergic effects of both. Make me very sociable - and I have asocial tendencies, even felt misanthropic at times. I can really see good in people, feel connection and genuine interest. Bacopa is not usually sedative or dulling to me (calming and anxiolytic yes) as long as there is something like Ginseng in my stack. Alone these serotonergics can start to make me feel like bit of a wussy and passive though.

The induction of P450 enzymes by SJW should be noted though if one uses drugs metabolized by them.

Edited by Galaxyshock, 10 June 2013 - 09:51 AM.

[magniloquentc0unt]

but really, these compounts have a miriad of different effect on different sites, often overlapping one each other and maybe even having inverse mechanism, i know it is difficult to resist to the temptation, but i think the mixing part should only take place after you have had a long period with one single agent! sorry for playing the mom role but i kinda realized this myself lately after i began to mix tianeptine/sulbutiamine/aniracetam, and ive since then removed the latter 2

[Galaxyshock]

Of course, I've gone through trial and error too, trying to mix whole bunch of stuff at once. One should always go by how they feel and what kind of individual response is experienced. The synergestic 5-HT2A effect of SJW and Ginseng, cognitive benefits of Ginseng and Bacopa, and that SJW and Bacopa seem to work together well too; is how I came up with the combination and it has been successful for me. I'll keep it the basis of my stack but like sometimes trying different things like Jiaogulan there to see what happens.

I think the add-on of Jiaogulan and my preworkout supp made me very stimulated or a bit hypomanic even, especially without Bacopa balancing things a out. Looks like both Ginseng and Jiaogulan increase cyclic AMP acitivity, which perhaps explains the high stimulation. I've reacted quite strongly to things that affect cAMP (Forskolin had especially strong response). Bacopa decreases it which is good for balance to me. I got some more Bacopa now + Schisandra and Ashwagandha extracts too, I'll see where things go from here.

Edited by Galaxyshock, 10 June 2013 - 10:40 AM.

[NeuroNootropic]

How exactly does 5-HT2A agonism affect anhedonia? I haven't been able to find any information on it with regards to anhedonia. Though, I did find a couple of conflicting studies: some found Ginseng's 5-HT2A agonism to have antidepressant effects, as evidenced by a blockage in its antidepressant effect when a 5-HT2A antagonist is introduced, and some found 5-HT2A antagonism to produce antidepressant effects and to enhance SSRI's existing antidepressant effect.

I'm thinking about adding either Cordyceps or Panax Ginseng to my existing regime of just Rhodiola. Any thoughts on this? Does Rhodiola affect 5-HT2A?

On another note, it seems SJW upregulates both 5-HT1A and 5-HT2A when taken for a chronic period:

Extracts' class='bbc_url' title='External link' rel='nofollow external'>http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9342771']Extracts of St. John's wort, Hypericum perforatum L. (Hypericaceae), are used as a phytotherapeutic antidepressant. A number of clinical studies demonstrate that their antidepressive potency is comparable to tricyclic antidepressants (TCA). Although the therapeutic effect of hypericum extracts is well documented, very little is known about the molecular mode of action. As the improvement of the depressive symptoms with both TCA and hypericum extracts only occurs significantly after a lag phase of 10 to 14 days, it is assumed that the medication causes long-term adaptations within the central nervous system. In this context, serotonergic (5-HT) receptors are of special interest. Therefore, we investigated possible alterations in affinity and density of 5-HT1 A and 5-HT2 A receptors caused by long-term treatment of rats with St. John's wort. The brain without cerebellum and brain stem of rats, treated daily for 26 weeks with a commercially available hypericum extract (2700 mg/kg LI 160) were used for membrane preparations. Affinity (KD) and amount (Bmax) of serotonergic receptors were determined by employing receptor binding assays using 3 H-8-OH-DPAT and 3H-Ketanserin as selective radioligands for the 5-HT1 A and the 5-HT2 A receptors, respectively. We found that in hypericum-treated rats the number of both 5-HT1 A and 5-HT2 A receptors were significantly increased by 50% compared to controls, whereas the affinity of both serotonergic receptors remained unaltered. The data suggest an upregulation of 5-HT1 A and 5-HT2 A receptors due to prolonged administration of hypericum extracts. These results are consistent with a modification of the expression levels of serotonergic receptors caused by synthetic antidepressants.

→ source (external link)

[chris106]

Well after SJW + Panax + Bacopa didn't do much after 3 days of consecutive use, and I felt pretty darn understimulated yesterday (though consuming coffee and cigarettes),
I tried tried combining SJW, Panax, Rhodiola and a (for me) small dose of 37,5mg Armodafinil at 8pm - and Holy shit!

Best state of mind I've been in for months! Felt motivated, optimistic, and calm - without the nasty overtimulated feeling that stimulants gave me, and also minus the jitters or muscle cramps. Also no siginficant comedown thereafter. (not too much sleep naturally, since taken so late in the evening, but then again yesterday was E3 night anyways, so yeah )

Guess I'll go with that combo for the next few days. Of course it might also just be that SJW and Panax slowly start working after a few days of Onset...

That being said, Wikipedia tells me that (Ar)modafinil does infact induce a few cytochrome p450 enzymes. My pharmacologicla knowledge isn't nearly good enough to have the slightest clue what that means though...
Is (Ar)modafinil a dangerous gamble with SJW in the long term? If so, I'm gonna completely eliminate it from my stack. But for now, it seems like low doses don't hurt the mix...

Also I've got DHEA and Tongkat Ali 200:1 extract coming soon. Like with Sam-e, I'll only start finicking around with those, once I can fully determine how SJW and Panax affect me, though.
Naturally, I'm then gonna gow start low with the DHEA ( basically want to determine if my problem is also testosteronergic in nature, and don't have money/time to beg for a test at my doc right now)
Tongkat Ali should be interesting, too. Since neither of those are really "stimulants" though, I guess adding them to SJW and Panax can't hurt?

[chris106]

I'm thinking about adding either Cordyceps or Panax Ginseng to my existing regime of just Rhodiola. Any thoughts on this? Does Rhodiola affect 5-HT2A?

From personal experience (Cordyceps didn't do much for me even after longer use) and evidence based on human studies I'd clearly suggest Panax Ginseng! Cordyceps also has quite a few positive anecdotal reports, but unlike Panax, there isn't really any scientific prove for most of it's effects at this point.. Of course that doesn't mean they aren't there, but Panax seems like the safer bet, I guess.

Well at least according to this site: search for both compounds and comnpare to form your own opinion!

www.examine.com

[chemicalambrosia]

Also I've got DHEA and Tongkat Ali 200:1 extract coming soon. Like with Sam-e, I'll only start finicking around with those, once I can fully determine how SJW and Panax affect me, though.
Naturally, I'm then gonna gow start low with the DHEA ( basically want to determine if my problem is also testosteronergic in nature, and don't have money/time to beg for a test at my doc right now)
Tongkat Ali should be interesting, too. Since neither of those are really "stimulants" though, I guess adding them to SJW and Panax can't hurt?

Taking DHEA isn't going to tell you whether you have a problem with test or not. If solving low test problems was as simple as that people wouldn't be taking pharmaceuticals and going on hormone replacement therapy at great cost and bother. I wouldn't waste my time with DHEA. Here is one of the first studies that came up on dhea and test:
http://jap.physiolog.../87/6/2274.full

SJW is well studied. If you are going to give it a try why not give it enough time for an effective trial?

[chris106]

I know DHEA doesn't have scientific evidence of improving Testosterone in "young, healthy males". Then again there aren't that many studies to disprove this either, and evidence is inconclusive. There may be more factors at work here and there are quite a few anecdotal reports (of men in their 20s or 30s) that react positively to DHEA supplementation.

I'm not trying to be right here, I know there's a high possibility that the whole DHEA craze of the last years is just a big marketing scam and that it doesn't do anything, unless you're a sixty year old men with proven low DHEA levels. But if scientific evidence from human trials is inconclusive and there are positive anecdotal reports, I'm willing to take a shot in the dark and at least try it for myself once.

Regarding SJW, you're absolutely right - I'm gonna try this at least 4 weeks before adding DHEA.

[Galaxyshock]

How exactly does 5-HT2A agonism affect anhedonia? I haven't been able to find any information on it with regards to anhedonia. Though, I did find a couple of conflicting studies: some found Ginseng's 5-HT2A agonism to have antidepressant effects, as evidenced by a blockage in its antidepressant effect when a 5-HT2A antagonist is introduced, and some found 5-HT2A antagonism to produce antidepressant effects and to enhance SSRI's existing antidepressant effect.

I'm thinking about adding either Cordyceps or Panax Ginseng to my existing regime of just Rhodiola. Any thoughts on this? Does Rhodiola affect 5-HT2A?

About 5-HT2A at least few things are known
- Is the main excitatory 5-HT receptor subtype
- Threshold psychedelics (5-HT2A agonists) have positive anecdotes for treating anhedonia
- The intensity of negative symptoms (incl. anhedonia) of Schizophrenia are significantly associated polymorphism of the 5-HT2A receptor gene

I read hypothesis that 5-HT2A could mediate the differences between depression types, and this anhedonia and emotional bluntness could be seen as one type IMO. High 5-HT2A activity is seen in depressed suicide victims, which seemingly lead to belief of downregulating the receptor as therapeutic treatment for depression (which sure can help in those cases). To me it seems like that receptor is the key that opens up the perception to sensing or reacting on emotions, highs and lows, pains and pleasures of life, and anticipating these. During the time I have had anhedonia and bluntness, I've never felt anything overwhelming (sadness, fear .. joy), never felt suicidal (at least like taking action) or had really trouble taking care of myself (as if anhedonia could be some evolutionary adaptation where basic survival is ensured with the cost of not truely experiencing life). It wasn't until 5-HT2A activation (I believe) that I could really start recognizing and remember something like those are even possible for some.

Altough one receptor is probably not such all-explainatory. I think acetylcholine can significantly worsen things. Past few days I've tried combinations of strong Ashwagandha extract (AChEI), Bacopa ext. (AChEI), Schisandra ext. (AChEI, altough weak), Rhodiola ext. (AChEI), Caffeine (AChEI), and felt awfully similar to back in fall when using huperzine A and anhedonia was bad - quite zombified and anhedonic but also anxious, tense and depressed, but it subsided in some hours. High dose magnesium helped a bit, it decreases acetylcholine release. I'm starting to think that at least the huperzine lead to worsening of my anhedonia, little did I know back then.. It seems that I'm vulnerable to acetylcholine increases, altough slight elevation doesn't hurt. 5-HT2A activation increases acetylcholine release though (in certain parts of the brain), so things are complicated. The other anti-anhedonic - GABA-B, agonism inhibits acetylcholine release. Something like an anti-muscarinic could be worth a try if one feels stuck..

Just some thoughts and suspicions, I could be wrong, and these things may sure not apply for every case..

Edited by Galaxyshock, 14 June 2013 - 10:11 AM.

[magniloquentc0unt]

hi guys, just updating with my situation.
I've been doing fairly better lately on the cognitive and even emotive spheres.
my regimen has been:

Tianeptine 3x12.5mg
Omega 3 DHA and EPA, 2 grams a day
Uridine UMP, 500mg a day
Choline 500mg a day
Inositol 500mg a day
NAC 600mg a day

s

[NeuroNootropic]

Galaxyshock, which brand and type of Ginseng do you use? I have an old bottle of NOW Foods Panax Ginseng that has 520 mg of ginseng powder standardized to a minimum 5% ginsenosides. I have about 100 capsules left in the bottle. I started taking 1 capsule (520 mg) yesterday along with Rhodiola Rosea, but I'm going to have to find a new brand to take because NOW Foods no longer carries the standardized 520 mg extract. They replaced it with a new, non-extract Panax Ginseng.

They still carry the standardized American Ginseng extract. What do you think about using American Ginseng? I'm guessing that the type of ginseng does not matter as long as it has ginsenosides. Though, do you know if American Ginseng has a different spectrum of ginsenosides vs panax, korean, or chinese?

On another note, how long did it take before you felt the effects of ginseng?

[Galaxyshock]

I used a bottle of that Now foods American Ginseng recently, seemed to work fine. Both Korean and American are "true" Ginsengs and altough some differences in the ingredient profile perhaps are there, the net effects are pretty much the same as far as I know. Sometimes I've gotten some immediate effects (energy increase and antidepressive) from it, usually I think it requires continous use. I realize my brain is still searching for balance from the withdrawal of Phenibut and is quite fragile to many things. I still lack certain depth to feeling/emotion, those are sloowly returning and sometimes I feel some wierd sensations and a bit of a "hyperperception" even. I guess it's something in the NMDA-receptor function.. Alcohol is nicely euphoric these days..

[Dissolvedissolve]

I'd like to update regarding my experience with SJW, Perika brand, standardized for hyperforin.

I went on it for ~3 weeks, noticed changes, tapered off, and then went back on it. This second time, I've been on it for just under three weeks. I've only been using 600 mg daily as to avoid serotonergic side effects, but I might try 900 mg in the future. These effects have been quite consistent between trials.

Positives -

Increased energy & motivation
Reduced need for sleep (from ~9.5-->~8.5)
Higher average mood
Perhaps mild anxiolysis (in any case, not anxiogenic)
Mildly increased libido

Negatives -

Somewhat increased mood lability
Caffeine's effect may be somewhat lessened - or it could just be tolerance

It also seems like there might be some withdrawal type issues if I miss a few doses.

I'll update as I stay on it. I just bought a number of bottles, so I'll be taking it for a while. I'll also experiment with adding ginseng, which I quite like but haven't combined with SJW as of yet.

Edited by Dissolvedissolve, 07 July 2013 - 06:47 PM.

[chris106]

Just wanted to add a little experience I had this week.

I had to prepare for an audition on short notice. Since I had no other choice than to pull allnighters, I used quite the moderate amount of modalert, up to 450mg/day. This would usually end up in a zombie-like state after a few days. But this time, to avoid emotional dulling and getting jittery, I tried adding L-Theanine and Ashwagandha.

100mg or 200mg of Modalert (plus 50mg Caffeine occasionally), with 400mg L-Theanine and 200mg Ashwagandha worked amazingly well for me! I was focussed and awake, yet had the complete range of emotions at my disposal. I also had complete control over my movements, and didn't feel "stiff" or sour, like I normally would on a stimulant. Plus I was hardly nervous at all, and had a really good time talking to the director and his assistant - I felt like I was easily gaining instant sympathy.
I also had no problem letting them finish their sentences and to whait my turn to talk - something that is usually very hard for me when on moda!

All in all - I pretty much nailed it, and I sure as hell wasn't expecting that given the circumstances!

And all that after literally not sleeping at all the night before (except a light one hour nap in the morning)!

Now I don't know if this upper/downer combination is a great idea in the long run. Actually I don't even think chronic long term modafinil use itself is a great idea.

But I still think this discovery was worth sharing.- for me it was the single best experience since I started finicking around with nootropics, period!

Edited by chris106, 07 July 2013 - 08:41 PM.

[Galaxyshock]

hi guys, just updating with my situation.
I've been doing fairly better lately on the cognitive and even emotive spheres.
my regimen has been:

Tianeptine 3x12.5mg
Omega 3 DHA and EPA, 2 grams a day
Uridine UMP, 500mg a day
Choline 500mg a day
Inositol 500mg a day
NAC 600mg a day

s

How does Uridine work for you? I've been thinking about giving it a go for dopamine function, cognition and productivity etc. I liked Triacetyluridine a lot when I tried it last year but it stopped working within a week if I remember correctly. Quite expensive stuff though so I wonder if it or UMP is worth a try again.

I'd like to update regarding my experience with SJW, Perika brand, standardized for hyperforin.

Good to hear similar positive effects that I've experienced. It may indeed be that SJW lessens caffeine effect, I've read it has demonstrated adenosinergic activity. I noticed that too.

But this time, to avoid emotional dulling and getting jittery, I tried adding L-Theanine and Ashwagandha.

Ashwagandha is very nice for balancing stimulants. The potent AChEI sometimes makes me kinda depressed though.

[magniloquentc0unt]

hi guys, just updating with my situation.
I've been doing fairly better lately on the cognitive and even emotive spheres.
my regimen has been:

Tianeptine 3x12.5mg
Omega 3 DHA and EPA, 2 grams a day
Uridine UMP, 500mg a day
Choline 500mg a day
Inositol 500mg a day
NAC 600mg a day

s

How does Uridine work for you? I've been thinking about giving it a go for dopamine function, cognition and productivity etc. I liked Triacetyluridine a lot when I tried it last year but it stopped working within a week if I remember correctly. Quite expensive stuff though so I wonder if it or UMP is worth a try again.

Honestly the first time i tried the fishoil/uridine/choline combo i was kind of skeptic... but when i came off of it, after a week or two, i noticed everything costed me more energy.. like a sort of heaviness added to my body. So i ordered some more and went back on, and i believe it is really doing something for my memory too, together with tianeptine. I believe it is one of the few things that has a vague effect on me.. bacopa too, but makes me tired (i take it in the evening and i notice i have way more difficulty waking up in the mornings, and i dream less: guess it makes my already deep sleep even deeper). Anyhow, uridine, imo its a good candidate for a long term stack, been on it for about 3 months in the past 6, and am awaiting the next shipment, this time with proper citicoline instead of cheap choline.
as a quick update, I also dropped the NAC and will drop the inositol too.. just trying to figure out the essentials.
I will experiment with huperzine: im already quite happy with the memory improvement i did over the past half year, but id like to see if AchE inhibition proves helpful. I still have a weird feeling i am slightly disconnected from myself and how i experience reality, kind of dissociaton... no idea how to try to fix that, but im sure its the final layer for my recovery between my coscience and reality

[NeuroNootropic]

Galaxyshock, you never updated us on Catuaba, how did that turn out for you?

[Galaxyshock]

Galaxyshock, you never updated us on Catuaba, how did that turn out for you?

It felt somewhat pleasantly stimulative, quite weak overall though. I tried big doses like 7 grams even but did only seem to increase stimulativeness, not pleasurability. For specifically sexual anhedonia I'd say it can be useful as it's noticeable aphrodisiac.

[NeuroNootropic]

Hmm, maybe I'll try it for the stimulant properties. Does 1 capsule (465 mg) stimulate you or do you need high doses?

On another note, it's almost been 2 weeks since i started taking Ginseng alongside Rhodiola and I've noticed my mood has been depressed and that I'm a lot more irritable than usual. I haven't noticed any benefits in the anhedonia area either. Should I give up on Ginseng or give it some more time?

I'm also thinking of adding in some Schizandra. Are you still taking it? What are the effects you've noticed? How long does it take to start working?

[Galaxyshock]

If Ginseng hasn't done anything in two weeks it probably won't in longer use either. To me it wasn't much of a direct anti-anhedonic alone but with SJW it has worked very well as adjunctive. I ran out of Schisandra but I've always liked it, it's smooth but nice moodlift and healthy feeling, should work somewhat immediately. I've been sticking to Perika SJW, Ginseng and Bacopa since they continously provide benefits to different aspects. I don't really have anhedonia anymore, it's mostly a bit fluctuating blunted affect that is left. At the same time my exhaustion/fatigue, cognitive issues, anxiety have subsided so I think if one has comorbid issues with anhedonia, treating them can be indirectly very helpful. Also if there are some psychological aspects "holding you back", solving them may be necessary. Things like SJW can help a lot but won't directly cure bad habits etc that are hurting your life quality.

With Catuaba I needed 4 caps to feel any effects and 6 caps was quite good dose as noticeably stimulative.

[Galaxyshock]

I find combining Rhodiola and Ginseng makes me a bit worse. It feels unnecessary stimulating and I feel tense, decrease in calmness and positive mood. Doesn't seem the best combination. I haven't used Perika or Bacopa for 6 days as I've run out once again, and thought some dopamine-noradrenaline increase would help with motivation and productiveness. I do like a lot of Rhodiola's energizing qualities but I think it's better in combination with something like Schisandra or Ashwagandha when it comes to adaptogens. Perhaps in a small dose and with something to balance things out it may go with Ginseng.

[NeuroNootropic]

I don't find Rhodiola to be stimulating, but I have noticed that it does not combine well with other substances. i.e. cordyceps alone improves my mood, reduces anhedonia, improves energy, improves attention and focus, but when taken with Rhodiola it depresses my mood and makes me irritable.

I have some schisandra and jiaogulan coming in. I'll try combining Rhodiola with those herbs separately and see what happens. I'm not sure if taking all 3 would be safe.

[Galaxyshock]

I bet you'll like Schisandra, and it should combine fine with Rhodiola. Those are sometimes combined in same supplement products. Not sure about Jiaogulan though, it's a bit different. I'm using Ashwagandha as main adaptogen now instead of Ginseng because it started to get way too heating. Noticing a strong calm and cool-headed feeling, something I've been kinda missing. Doesn't really reduce anhedonic feelings or lift mood though, but I guess I could try some Perika or Rhodiola with it.

Edited by Galaxyshock, 30 July 2013 - 07:56 AM.

[NeuroNootropic]

I received the bottle today and when I was removing the seal the capsules flew out of the bottle like a snake nut can. Lost 3 capsules. I took 1 capsule along with Rhodiola and felt sedated and sluggish. My concentration was off and I felt like I was slowed down. Rhodiola is not stimulating for me nor is it sedating. I'm guessing Schisandra would go well with a stimulant. Does Schisandra get more effective when taken chronically?

I'll try Jiaogulan tomorrow. I think I'll take Jiaogulan for about 4 weeks before concluding its effects on me. The only reason I bought it is because of this article you linked to, Galaxyshock:

6-Hydroxydopamine administration for 28 days (8 μg/2 μL) reduced the number of tyrosine hydroxylase (TH)-immunopositive neurons to 40.2% in the substantia nigra compared to the intact contralateral side. Dopamine, 3,4-dihydroxyphenylacetic acid, homovanillic acid and norepinephrine levels were reduced to 19.1%, 52.3%, 47.1% and 67.4% in the striatum of 6-hydroxydopamine-lesioned rats compared to the control group, respectively. However, an oral administration of herbal ethanol extracts from Gynostemma pentaphyllum (GP-EX) (10 mg/kg and 30 mg/kg) starting on day 3 post-lesion for 28 days markedly ameliorated the reduction of TH-immunopositive neurons induced by 6-hydroxydopamine-lesioned rat brain from 40.2% to 67.4% and 75.8% in the substantia nigra. GP-EX administration (10 and 30 mg/kg) also recovered the levels of dopamine, 3,4-dihydroxyphenylacetic acid, homovanillic acid and norepinephrine in post-lesion striatum to 64.1% and 65.0%, 77.9% and 89.7%, 82.6% and 90.2%, and 88.1% and 89.2% of the control group. GP-EX at the given doses did not produce any sign of toxicity such as weight loss, diarrhea and vomiting in rats during the 28 day treatment period and four gypenoside derivatives, gynosaponin TN-1, gynosaponin TN-2, gypenoside XLV and gypenoside LXXIV were identified from GP-EX. These results suggest that GP-EX might be helpful in the prevention of Parkinson’s disease.

→ source (external link)

The human equivalent dose of 30 mg/kg should be 4.84 mg/kg, which is feasible. The brand I'm using is Paradise Herbs. I'm not sure if it's an ethanol extract though or if it even matters.

[Galaxyshock]

Seems that some respond to Schinsandra with sedative effect. It is calming to me but not exactly sedative, perhaps something stimulative would indeed balance it out. You could also try half the dose or take it in the evening? It may of course take few days to get used to it and tolerate better. Jiaogulan is a strong herb with unique qualities, definitely worth a trial as you seem to respond well to many adaptogens.

[NeuroNootropic]

I've been thinking of adding some memantine to my current regime. Not sure where I read it, but Rhodiola Rosea modulates the opioid system as well as dopamine and serotonin. This is pure speculation, but I seem to have built tolerance to its dopaminergic and opioidergic effects. NMDA antagonists have the potential to reverse drug tolerance: http://www.longecity...e-does-it-work/

It's worth a try. I have an appointment with my psychiatrist in September. I'll ask him about memantine and if he prescribes it then I'll post updates of its effects here.

[Galaxyshock]

Compared to control treatment, administartion of Rhodiola rosea extract increased leu-enkephalin (endogenous opioid peptide) concentration in blood plasma, suprarenal glands and myocardium of rats exposed to stress.

http://novagenex.com...-rosea-Copy.pdf

If one is not exposed to stress, then perhaps the opioidergic effect disappears? heh. NMDA-antagonism could work, Cholecystokinin-B antagonism too, but it's usually better to just cycle adaptogens. I'm sure memantine can be very useful with various things though.

Edited by Galaxyshock, 31 July 2013 - 07:22 AM.