2214 replies to this topic

[Julia36]

here's a post/flier in case people cant make the Turing Church workshop later this month.

Also see google Quantum Archaeology

cheers


*********************************************************************************


For Turing Church workshop 2012





How science is trying to resurrect the dead





ABSTRACT





Quantum Archaeology is the science of resurrecting the dead including their memories, anticipating the process technologies due in 20 - 40 years. It assumes the universe is made of events and the laws that govern them, and seeks to make maps of brain/body states at the instant of death for everyone in history. It involves the coming quantum archaeology grid which sets out all known events, calculating the others in vast cross-referencing timelines - also known as the laws of physics. The result will be a megamatrix good enough to describe then simulate the past. It awaits coming systems like quantum computers and super-recursive algorithms. Large grids already exist waiting to be merged, including cosmic ones with trillions of moving points. Early quantum computers are already built and expected to achieve required efficiencies by 2022, and super-recursive algorithms are already being explored.
INTRODUCTION







Quantum Archaeology - (QA) was inspired by Russian born Asimov's psychohistory, written after Einstein's 1905 determinist denouement of Brownian motion. This reactionary view - that everything moves solely according to law - must include decaying and cremating brains and their heat conversions. Scientific resurrection was a forgotten idea of the 19th century Russian cosmist movement, chased to oblivion by revolution. Awoken independently after the birth of the world wide web by Frank Tipler's response to Ettinger's cryonics, translations are easier and speculation about information recovery is increasing.+
QA was forged in discussions on Kurzweilai.net & other internet forums, producing howls of protests as death had been seen as a final, irreversible state, presumably having some special properties and the first attempt was kicked off wikipedia as 'original research', 'not notable'. Forensic scientists are not easily dissuaded and this breaking topic will correct its doubtless many errors as it digs out its competence with coming spectacular forensic archaeology techniques.
Quantum archaeology asserts a man is a mixture of events, existing solely by the laws of physics. His composite patterns are interchangeable with identical ones. In an interactive system like the universe, things in one state are linked by immutable laws to all other things. QA's conjecture is the whole of any person's past is necessarily deducible with enough cross-referenced calculation done in symbolic maths, hypercomputation, or both. The horror was the size of sums which people intuitively dismissed as too big for philosophy, too big for science, and too big to calculate.They are not too big to write down. Inventor of the set theory, Cantor, who died in poverty in an insane asylum, postulated transfinite numbers with aleph orders of infinities. Predictive analytics may suggest a time when he will be revived. Mathematics now calculates infinite complexities - something seen as magic to the layman, using Cantorian set theory as the basis of computing. Data is not random in the world but in groups and shapes that cross-reference and repeat each other. Meaning you can make confident retrodictions through time despite few events surviving. The maths is like cryptologic with which Rejewski, successfully reverse engineered Scherbius' enigma machine engaging the theory of permutations and groups. He selected a correct scramble from 150,000,000,000,000,000,000 combinations allowing British mathematicians to break encrypted messages. The statistics of complex systems through time can draw on work in dynamics like quantum turbulence. It is the size of the sums that is dazzling and the sole problem resurrection and all deep archaeology faces. You could, for instance sum all possible people who cold ever have lived. That vast calculation would include a map for resurrecting everyone who had actually lived -then resurrect them all! But quantum archaeology is going to use innovative number elimination rules to reduce this vast larynth to the correct ones, in the history we know.

Quantum archaeology is important enough to be a separate research field and if there weren't many unknowns it wouldn't need to be researched. But it is not contra science: every part of it is based on what is known and forecasts of what coming technology will be able to deliver.

Computational archaeology and other disciplines build increasingly sophisticated maps of events good enough to construct the past Incremental improvements are likely to produce maps good enough to run simulations past the 5 nanometres needed to plot individual brains for any time in history. When that happens machine technology small enough for physical resurrection is likely to have arrived and routine.revivals become a branch of medicine. This accelerating wave of progress must lead generally to resurrection of the dead, or we will have failed to master numbers and the quantum world.


But it can also be specifically attempted. Quantum archaeology is drafted like Laplace's demon, as retrodiction science, back-calculating events that must have been from those known in the present, deducing patiently by the laws of physics. Masses of the work can be done in classical physics in which human consciousness seems to reside. However Quantum Archaeology accommodates the quantum theory which modifies classical physics for quantum gravity in the world of the very small - just as Relativity modified Newtonian physics for the world of the very big. We are learning to manipulate quanta, and the effects must be astounding new technologies. In 2010 the first quantum machine was built.¬
The unleashing technology will be fantastic. Things thought impossible will be done routinely and things beyond imagination will accelerate one another. More than a trillion trillion trillion machines each more complex than anything man-made today, will fit inside an atom, and these intelligent invisibles will construct smaller, cleverer machines to achieve even more astonishing science as we head into superstring physics and enter other universes.



Event maps are laid over one another to calculate quantum histories.
For resurrection of the dead we need not advance too much. Relevant sizes are mostly between one atom and one metre for the body and brain. This, coupled to simulable descriptions of local environment, are everything possible in a human mind. Nothing is irrelevant and nothing is left to chance, but nothing happens by mysterious forces. No man is outside nature, and his most private thoughts are solely products of his determinable biology, environment and the laws of physics. All will be revealed.

Quantum archaeology anticipates fast advances in charting detailed histories that are faithful and repeatable. Information gaps may be overcome by cross-referencing huge numbers of common timelines, filling in the blanks by eliminating the impossible and recording what remains. We are already doing this with present and historical constructions:
The worst case scenario for quantum archaeology is that we plot and resurrect every possible person who has ever lived but have no idea which are the 'real' ones. This is extremely unlikely because the science of probability will eliminate impossible timelines, and it is possible the entire universe may be charted as a moving, reversible system, on computers that already have more variables than all stars and planets combined.In the unlikely case the physical universe cant be reversed, at least archaeology can calculate causally and probabilistically what parts of it necessarily were, for there are limits to the size of what is needed, and retrodiction may be so demonstrably accurate as to assert we have mapped the essence of any person including thoughts known only to him.

Size doesn't affect the idea, nor does distance to history, which assumes only that the world operates by laws, we can state enough of them at our size limits, and can back-calculate necessary events down to the relevant scale of human memory. This comes easily to futurists who are used to predictive and statistical inference calculations since Babbage thrashed the world's ruling elite forcing it through the Royal Statistical Society.
Presently conceived in axiomatic logic using basic number theory, QA drafts a detailed, expanding four dimensional (moving) graph of history called the Quantum Archaeology Grid, anticipating hypercomputing, synthesis of data banks, and clever, vastly superior ways of manipulating - like super-recursive algorithms (which are expected to out-perform even quantum computers). We will reach 1 exaflop (a quadrillion floating-point calculations per second) of data manipulation on classical supercomputers, passing what is thought to be one human brain capacity in 2018, but it's nothing to what's coming.




eg Event points (simple) . One moment of one unit of human memory is plotted.

Mathematics means you dont need brute calculation. Symbolic abstraction computes pretty well anything using short cuts. Human memories are generally isometric. Although all neurons are unique they have evolved inevitably, and if you have calculated the environment and the DNA, you are more than half way to describing the dead person. Memory reconstruction is repetition, reaction and environmental permutation, reduced by ascertainable and specific geographical locations. The brain itself has only 300 million pattern recognition modules, of 100 neurons per module (How to Create a Mind Ray Kurzweil 2012). Human memory is not random but flows like rivers down the paths of least resistance, obeying the body's hormonal goals modified by sensory input from given or calculable environments.
Reconstructions might start with a prototype human. Maps would be linked by the laws of physics to maps a second later. Dynamic and inevitable map trajectories would be plotted. Over them would be imposed other maps from complex databases, personalizing what the person must have been like, at first generally, then in such detail he would be indistinguishable from the real thing. At that point he would be the real thing. Just as RNA copies new cells in your body constantly, a copy of any deceased person would actually be them. All their thoughts, everything that made them them would be present, set down in equations, algorithms and countless sums and therefore backed-up. A reconfigured human being would necessarily hold descriptions his in brain of his tribal environment to help reconfigure others, and these can be simultaneously commenced in the present to describe the past as interaction. This is living reconstruction. Each piece of the quantum archaeology enables new pieces. But this wont be done at the rate of people on digs or in labs, but on intelligent machines working near light speeds and with errors of much less than the one in a million which is today's state of the art in DNA sequencing. Error checking of complex systems is integral to mathematic's architecture and is well advanced.
Zillions of modifications by speeding computers configuring local data in classical and quantum physics would perfect chronicles and representations into finely detailed snapshots, from conception to death. At that point a license to resurrect might be granted by a medical council. Then microrobots would begin reconstruction.
Things in local areas like books, or an internet which may be a large interactive book, are information node densities - clustering coefficients affecting other information pathways and other nodes, like heavy stars affecting gravity distribution in a universe. These may weight in so accurately it could be impossible for a single moment to escape statistical denouement.
This is archaeology rising. Quantum means 'the minimum amount of an entity'. Archaeology: the 'recovery and analysis of human data'. Thus quantum archaeology is the recovery and analysis of the minimum amounts of data needed to describe anything human in history, including human brain cells and even private human events and thoughts as grid points.
The points plotted are fixed relatively, but they have pasts and futures, forward and aft. Together they give moving charts of a man's life and memories.
It is much easier to do than it first seems. The vast bulk of calculation is repetition, and early cosmology enables seed programmes to be sketched. No simulations have resulted in life, but the computing power has not been enough for sufficient brute force permutation yet, and those calculations are increasing as multiples of Moore's Law and the advance of number equations.
Mathematics by arduous minds torturing the edge of abstraction will surely yield to greater intelligence amplification in machines. How fast the big calculators arrive is more than guesswork as trajectories have been watched for 50 years, and astonishing leaps have peppered history. By numbers of actioned patents, discoveries are speeding.
QA then posits recovery and reconstruction of sufficient data to calculate the details of anyone dead - including their memories - to prepare a map of them - an equation, a recipe or algorithm, for technologies like micro robots, to build to order when those arrive.
Quantum robots are a form of micro robot based on Feynman's idea, by Paul Benioff in 1982. David Deutsch at Oxford began a department of quantum computers to successfully push the science and it is now a major research industry.

Coming technologies like 3D printing seem to have no scale limits and may eventually be used routinely at quantum levels, nor be restricted to three dimensions. Non-living events, aeons past, including people, are expected to be resurrected to full functionality. Despite our egos screaming otherwise, these resurrectees must be indistinguishable from the real thing under Ettinger's maxims of identity. Once the quantum archaeological grid is drawn, any number of a specific dead person could be manufactured, a complete simulation of their consciousness from conception to death written down or run as a computer program, and would be demonstrably authentic at the point of revival. There are huge and growing record bases that can help,some reaching back millions of years. As we reconstruct the past, that provides a platform to go back further.

The processing power is already here for the surface work, the mathematics already in place, but sufficient technology not expected for 20-40 years. That is a wide time-frame in accelerating technology. The problems of resurrecting over 160 billion dead people since 50,000 B.C.E. into the modern world may look ridiculous, but in a few decades what is possible will have multiplied by many factors. As to housing, the universe is full of space. Some people say they dont want to be resurrected but this is the Lazarus Long delusion explained later. When people cite possible problems of resurrecting, the essential idea has been understood.

Things are built and labelled by men in the Internet of Things which is slowly covering the globe. Things are progressively built by machine systems planning and designing them. Things forces innovative mathematics and startlingly good model-driven software. At some stage voice commands to a portable device will be enough for most things to be assembled in front of you at speed, and objects once of great value become disposable. The wave will bring excellence enough in high technology for the manipulation of quantum archaeological data.

This paper highlights the accelerating progress of technologies and sciences, not only in archaeology and reconstructing the past, but generally, with advances prototyping like self-driving cars, printed organs and invisibility cloaks. Those must have seemed like magic one generation of 20 years ago.

It looks at the implications of quantum archaeology, the three main objections to it, and their defeats. Those objections and defeats which are likely to be contentious until first experiments are briefly:







1. Information is irrecoverably lost or there's too much of it to make sense:
- defeat: - archaeology recovers information and by accelerating methods. QA is not attempting infinite recovery, but between the atom and the body, generally. One quantum computer is expected do more than all classical computers combined. All possible deceased's memories could be calculated initially, and QA will reduce these to the few then the one by probability. Ettinger (cryonically suspended) nearing ninety thought there might be a Law of Conservation of Information and nothing lost in the universe.
2. Entropy says the universe is not reversible therefore no local part of the universe is reversible. When brains decay, part of their descriptions are lost as thermodynamic heat and there is no known way of retracing it.
- defeat - M Theory refutes unavoidable heat death of the universe: energy can be created or siphoned from others in the multiverse; local parts are therefore reconfigurable. The entire universe is debated as a simulation. If so, the universe is logically reversible for the burgeoning numbers of events in the present all trace to similar histories in the past.
Further QA isn't relying on total information reconstruction from surviving fragments but the construction of the quantum archaeology grid which sources events before, after and adjacent to a given person's timeline and works by logical deduced reconfigurations. It isn't seeking the actual particle that made the deceased's brain, but multi-time pathways that made those brains inevitable.
3. Quantum Theory proves Cause & Effect are obsolete.*
- defeat - No-one understands how quantum theory works but presumably by laws and therefore prediction is probable, as we measure and manipulate the world of the very small.^ eg the 2012 Nobel Prize for Physics was for measuring and manipulating individual quantum systems. Coming quantum computers and machine intelligences are expected to have enough complexity to deliver the laws of the quantum world as well and things like quantum teleportation have already been achieved.
This paper will argue the limits of science: that deceased Man is built by and therefore retrievable by its absolute laws: no-one may move outside them. It will also attempt to argue that extropian resurrection is a greater philosophy, more powerful than the brute will of the Nietzschean and Marxist schools - both misreadings of Darwin - and inevitably lead to recursive civilization on rising Kardashevian scales.

Heidegger's assertion 'death must be accepted in order to be free.' is refuted by the transhumanist school. There is no strict freedom in determinism since it is bound by laws. Higher degrees of mobility evolve as responses to the environment and the compatibility argument ends the conflict: The quantum world may yield to a wider explanation of surely wondrous complex Causality. With no causal beginning and no causal end, solving the Godelian incompleteness loop of self-reflection seems impossible. Human intelligence, as memory modification at ion speed, hasn't yet (2012) been passed by artificial general systems good enough to fool a blind man in Turing's imitation game.

Massive life extension looks viable and resurrection theory is running after it, the mathematics and technologies needed, covalent. Cryonics is presently the best way of preserving organic data from the brain, and it would be foolish indeed not to use it, but comprehensive scanning technologies are sure to emerge from sonics and electromagnetics and internal mapping by nanobots is on the horizon. They will not be needed is QA is correct but it still pre-theory and not proven.

For the poet-artist, death seems a joke by nature trying to cage the truth of the imagination, since as a rule what can be imagined in detail can be built by engineers. Marvin Minsky's mindless agents forming the society of mind are nonetheless absolutely determined by science laws in what they must and cannot do: with sufficient understanding and computing their lives and histories may be absolutely retrodictable.

If we are to 'extract the surrender of all supernaturalism and fixed dogma by superior perspicacity,' futurists must stir the core humanity that objectivism mechanized out of Victorian philosophy. QA is a snowball that has begun rolling, its argument annealed with visionary technology and invention. The conflict between Relativity and Quantum Theory is absurd: "Contradictions do not exist. Whenever you think you are facing a contradiction, check your premises. You will find that one of them is wrong." Rand.

Futurist extropian transhumanism is now the foresighted raising a shield against aging, and cracking the long-brimming dams of the tomb.


Man is a being that has never died. Man is a being that never dies. Man is incapable of death. Cause and effect show Man owns his past and his future.The laws of science cannot be broken.You have always been. You will always be. Resurrection is certain. Immortality is certain. You are intrinsically precious. Your cause is as old as the universe. You, yourself, are the laws of the universe.
With such bold maxims, questions about suffering and the meaning of life obliterate. Suffering is not only going to end, it is going to be reversed, because the human past is not fixed. The meaning of meaning is halted. Transhuman Man is meaning as reaction, and existence is the base state of the Multiverse. Extropian is the resurrecting immortal hero at war with death and chaos.Transhumanists gathered in San Francisco and decided no-one would take them seriously if they said that they thought:- that immortality was coming. So they watered it down to life extension is coming. The historian can attest no watered revolution is possible. An over-arching philosophy that doesn't incorporate immortality and resurrection is half-baked, for the imagination of men has made them mainstream in competing ones.They should dare speak their truth with open imaginations for it will electrify the world and their time has come.

Hopefully by the end of this paper it will be thought possible no man has irrecoverably died, individual human life is not philosophically pointless, private thoughts and actions are viewable from the future, and the awful price of history was worth it. What is coming will shortly be solely driven by the imagination as machines take over labour, experiment and discovery. Man will be relatively free from drudgery as depth in philosophy brings weak into strong and old into new. This recursive continuance of history will keep us away from 'the greatness which does not bow before children '(Gibran) where what is possible is everything that can be thought of. Resurrection way become another branch of medicine.

As this paper is read, the doubts repeat that we can do the size of calculations necessary.

They are certainly vaster than anything mankind has attempted. But so are the coming maths and computing. So long as we avoid catastrophes it is surely certain - sooner or later - that we will achieve resurrection. It doesn't matter if people die or suffer for a higher cause if that higher cause resurrects and reverses, not just compensates, their suffering.


We will bury our dead - then we will resurrect them
Human infinite existence and recovery, if achievable, is necessarily already an eternal truth, for where Prometheus stole fire from the gods, Extropian ripped existential meaning from technology and made the technology think back to him. The gnomes of this renaissance have begun a world wide web of explosive technical creativity. Unexpected and profoundly difficult ones lie ahead in shortening time-steps. People born today wont need to die and people dying today will be resurrected to a better, kinder world where scramble for abundant power would be pointless.We now draw with ourselves an arrow through the Singularity. Instead of aim and unreachable star, we exist by trajectory and impetus. Self-generation and degrees of freedom are everything. We have no reified point ahead, only launch. We are ourselves the absolute, inside the eternal multiverse.

Expansion, love of life, abolition of limit - including every kind of death, unite us** and if this is mad, it is also brave. Courage and cooperation have brought homo sapiens sapiens to the top of the mountain whopping every meso species on earth that has come at him. Now Man is stalking death.

In the naked desert of machine logic the resurrecting power of imagination as technology that turned Victorian archaeologists like Petrie and Carter into legends will make heros spring back to life and actual immortality. Definitions of old and young will cease to exist. But the clamor for the old to guide us is still desperate. 'Youth could win, but had not learned to keep, and was pitiably weak against age.' (T.E. Lawrence). Science is climbing, gasping, to another high plateau, with a formula for resurrection, and the message that the dead are not permanently dead, their sacrifices not personally futile, their individual histories just beginning, and the opening future is far beyond the dreams of dangerous men.

But Man is chained to fear of death until the first resurrections come, and Quantum Archaeology, like all new ideas, is regarded as heresy - or worse is unknown. It is unthought of by nature: fearless technology bringing recursive civilization. It is revolution, with no obvious precedent and in contravention of biology.
The dead are about to rise. Man is the warden of the world. Man is the womb of intelligent life. Man is himself the meaning of all things. Man is heroic will rising from the scattered dusts. All isn't vanity and vexation of spirit but assembly, architecture, form and reach. In the ascendant of time Man, calling on the wizardry of science draws his aspects with obsessive detail to build a species natal chart and plot the meticulous histories, piecing together smallest relevant parts with near mystical synastry, to regale our pasts collective and individual.
For the archaeologist - who does occasionally look forwards - homo sapiens sapiens is passing to homo sapiens jugis: wise man continuing.







[/url]<a href="http://www.google.co...RqU9Q&cad=rja">Birkbeck Archaeology Department
John 'eldras' Ellis

London December 2012





[left]










+ John Archibald Wheeler talked of using a stone retrieved from Plato's Academy being put into a machine and its acoustic memory being peeled back to reveal Plato talking to Aristotle. Jack Donovan a toy dealer at Portobello, London used to speculate about such a device was buildable after studying sound machines for decades.

* This is a serious objection to Quantum Archaeology. If the quantum world is random, then nothing is predictable in it. However we are already making successful probabilistic predictions in the quantum world, and systems have already been built achieving reliable results. It is easy to see how people think information could be lost into such a world but it's mysteries will surely fall to denouement as its laws are recorded. The moment prediction is viable, Cause and Effect exist, even if where those predictions are probabilistic, and my guess is that coming eras may think us foolish to believe Cause & Effect was suspended. This was also Einstein's view. The best position may be to just describe what is observable in the quantum and to delay explanations until we have enough to construct a theory. As things stand Relativity which has been proved experimentally, and Quantum Theory are in conflict. This area has not been resolved but we should proceed with QA none-the-less. See also Feynman's lecture on quantum Probability and Uncertainty in the "Messenger" series of lectures on Cornell University 1964 online, where the first 5 minutes are clear and the rest confused.

^ eg 1., The Pauli Exclusion Principle states no identical fermions may occupy the same quantum state at once.

eg 2., The Principle of Interchangeability states identical particles are absolutely interchangable, and this is likely to apply to many things in the quantum world.

¬ http://article.wn.co...ith_Seahawks_2/.

2012
Quote 1: "We shouldn't get freaked about having to do all the reconstruction at once. People think 'resurrecting someone from 1,000 years ago no way- toooo complex' but they could concede we MIGHT be able to reconstruct someone's DNA from then using probabilities. From the DNA you can do a clone...an identical body. Now you look for how the brain grew through their life to the moment of death. That can only be two ways...the DNA and the environment variables.At that point people say well OK you've got copies of them with no memories.But here where archaeology comes into its own. People's brain are reactants to their world...only that. Most of the variables in that world are going to be the landscape and the other people....and you are already computer-generating all the other people from their DNA. The other records and those you configure like the geological record the archaeological record the biological record climate record etc will all synthesize with incredible definition. If anyone existed at pretty much anytime in human history they're going to show up in these simulations warts and all. Again people wrongly think that memories are mystical, somehow outside the range of possible archaeological reconstruction, but they're physical entities same as bones ...each inevitable given the right variables. Note we're not just looking at the decayed brain and trying to get back the information dissolved as radiant heat, but we're coming at reassembly loads of different ways which facilitate each other on a quantum archaeology grid. I dont know how small we'll have to go, but my hunch is into the quantum world, even though the 'you' stuff of the body/brain is between 5 nanometres and one 3 metre body. "

Quote 2 :"The 2 big issues to get this:
1) Our ego's dont get all people are reconfigurable composites ;
2) Size of calculations needed is so massive people dont think when they could be done with future computers"

** see Extropian Principles http://www.maxmore.com/extprn3.htm





>>>>Go to first page of quantum archaeology

apologoes, dunn why that happened.

This link:

https://sites.google...tumarchaeology/

Edited by caliban, 04 March 2015 - 12:12 AM.
title

[Turnbuckle]

Science fiction.

[Julia36]

any reason?

[Turnbuckle]

Okay, it really doesn't rise to the level of science fiction. It is religion pretenting to be SF.

[platypus]

The whole story is bordering on the insane, if you find yourself taking it too seriously you should back off for your own sake.

Yeah lets simulate the whole universe from the Big bang with infinite precision in order to recreate everything that happened. Right?!

[Julia36]

Ad hominem isn't argument, and is against the rules of these forums you've agreed to:)

Is simulation of our universe too big for you to imagine?

And no that is NOT what I am arguing.Common you can attack it better than this... the issue is whether you can recover someone who hasn't been frozen, and specifically HOW you would do that? Some ideas are put forward it's up to you to refute them.

the ONLY thing that matter is--
Is this argument correct? Can we reconfigure the past with coming archaeology to the memory levels, and back thru time?

I've pitched some reasons why I think this inevitable, you have to refute them in science...and good luck defining religion which BTW isn't mentioned ONCE in the entire 61,000 word paper!


This isn't an alternate to cryonics but an adjunct, and Robert Ettinger WAS engaged in the Quantum Archaeology debate, and is cited in it.
The fundamentals of QA are sound I think...but I'm open to having it shot down if it is scientifically wrong.

I'll try and post a bit more

MORE>>>>

This paper will argue the limits of science: that deceased Man is built by and therefore retrievable by its absolute laws: no-one may move outside them. It will also attempt to argue that extropian resurrection is a greater philosophy, more powerful than the brute will of the Nietzschean and Marxist schools - both misreadings of Darwin - and inevitably lead to recursive civilization on rising Kardashevian scales.

Heidegger's assertion 'death must be accepted in order to be free.' is refuted by the transhumanist school. There is no strict freedom in determinism since it is bound by laws. Higher degrees of mobility evolve as responses to the environment and the compatibility argument ends the conflict: The quantum world may yield to a wider explanation of surely wondrous complex Causality. With no causal beginning and no causal end, solving the Godelian incompleteness loop of self-reflection seems impossible. Human intelligence, as memory modification at ion speed, hasn't yet (2012) been passed by artificial general systems good enough to fool a blind man in Turing's imitation game.

Massive life extension looks viable and resurrection theory is running after it, the mathematics and technologies needed, covalent. Cryonics is presently the best way of preserving organic data from the brain, and it would be foolish indeed not to use it, but comprehensive scanning technologies are sure to emerge from sonics and electromagnetics and internal mapping by nanobots is on the horizon. They will not be needed is QA is correct but it still pre-theory and not proven.

For the poet-artist, death seems a joke by nature trying to cage the truth of the imagination, since as a rule what can be imagined in detail can be built by engineers. Marvin Minsky's mindless agents forming the society of mind are nonetheless absolutely determined by science laws in what they must and cannot do: with sufficient understanding and computing their lives and histories may be absolutely retrodictable.

If we are to 'extract the surrender of all supernaturalism and fixed dogma by superior perspicacity,' futurists must stir the core humanity that objectivism mechanized out of Victorian philosophy. QA is a snowball that has begun rolling, its argument annealed with visionary technology and invention. The conflict between Relativity and Quantum Theory is absurd: "Contradictions do not exist. Whenever you think you are facing a contradiction, check your premises. You will find that one of them is wrong." Rand.

Futurist extropian transhumanism is now the foresighted raising a shield against aging, and cracking the long-brimming dams of the tomb.

Man is a being that has never died.
Man is a being that never dies. Man is incapable of death.
Cause and effect show Man owns his past and his future.
The laws of science cannot be broken.
You have always been.
You will always be.
Resurrection is certain.
Immortality is certain.
You are intrinsically precious.
Your cause is as old as the universe.
You, yourself, are the laws of the universe.


With such bold maxims, questions about suffering and the meaning of life obliterate. Suffering is not only going to end, it is going to be reversed, because the human past is not fixed. The meaning of meaning is halted. Transhuman Man is meaning as reaction, and existence is the base state of the Multiverse. Extropian is the resurrecting immortal hero at war with death and chaos.
Transhumanists gathered in San Francisco and decided no-one would take them seriously if they said that they thought:- that immortality was coming. So they watered it down to life extension is coming. The historian can attest no watered revolution is possible. An over-arching philosophy that doesn't incorporate immortality and resurrection is half-baked, for the imagination of men has made them mainstream in competing ones.They should dare speak their truth with open imaginations for it will electrify the world and their time has come.

Hopefully by the end of this paper it will be thought possible no man has irrecoverably died, individual human life is not philosophically pointless, private thoughts and actions are viewable from the future, and the awful price of history was worth it. What is coming will shortly be solely driven by the imagination as machines take over labour, experiment and discovery. Man will be relatively free from drudgery as depth in philosophy brings weak into strong and old into new. This recursive continuance of history will keep us away from 'the greatness which does not bow before children '(Gibran) where what is possible is everything that can be thought of. Resurrection way become another branch of medicine.

As this paper is read, the doubts repeat that we can do the size of calculations necessary.

They are certainly vaster than anything mankind has attempted. But so are the coming maths and computing. So long as we avoid catastrophes it is surely certain - sooner or later - that we will achieve resurrection. It doesn't matter if people die or suffer for a higher cause if that higher cause resurrects and reverses, not just compensates, their suffering.


We will bury our dead - then we will resurrect them
Human infinite existence and recovery, if achievable, is necessarily already an eternal truth, for where Prometheus stole fire from the gods, Extropian ripped existential meaning from technology and made the technology think back to him. The gnomes of this renaissance have begun a world wide web of explosive technical creativity. Unexpected and profoundly difficult ones lie ahead in shortening time-steps. People born today wont need to die and people dying today will be resurrected to a better, kinder world where scramble for abundant power would be pointless.
We now draw with ourselves an arrow through the Singularity. Instead of aim and unreachable star, we exist by trajectory and impetus. Self-generation and degrees of freedom are everything. We have no reified point ahead, only launch. We are ourselves the absolute, inside the eternal multiverse.

Expansion, love of life, abolition of limit - including every kind of death, unite us** and if this is mad, it is also brave. Courage and cooperation have brought homo sapiens sapiens to the top of the mountain whopping every meso species on earth that has come at him. Now Man is stalking death.

In the naked desert of machine logic the resurrecting power of imagination as technology that turned Victorian archaeologists like Petrie and Carter into legends will make heros spring back to life and actual immortality. Definitions of old and young will cease to exist. But the clamor for the old to guide us is still desperate. 'Youth could win, but had not learned to keep, and was pitiably weak against age.' (T.E. Lawrence). Science is climbing, gasping, to another high plateau, with a formula for resurrection, and the message that the dead are not permanently dead, their sacrifices not personally futile, their individual histories just beginning, and the opening future is far beyond the dreams of dangerous men.

But Man is chained to fear of death until the first resurrections come, and Quantum Archaeology, like all new ideas, is regarded as heresy - or worse is unknown. It is unthought of by nature: fearless technology bringing recursive civilization. It is revolution, with no obvious precedent and in contravention of biology.
The dead are about to rise. Man is the warden of the world. Man is the womb of intelligent life. Man is himself the meaning of all things. Man is heroic will rising from the scattered dusts. All isn't vanity and vexation of spirit but assembly, architecture, form and reach. In the ascendant of time Man, calling on the wizardry of science draws his aspects with obsessive detail to build a species natal chart and plot the meticulous histories, piecing together smallest relevant parts with near mystical synastry, to regale our pasts collective and individual.

For the archaeologist - who does occasionally look forwards - homo sapiens sapiens is passing to homo sapiens jugis: wise man continuing.

<a href="http://www.google.co...RqU9Q&cad=rja">Birkbeck Archaeology Department

John 'eldras' Ellis

London December 2012

+ John Archibald Wheeler talked of using a stone retrieved from Plato's Academy being put into a machine and its acoustic memory being peeled back to reveal Plato talking to Aristotle. Jack Donovan a toy dealer at Portobello, London used to speculate about such a device was buildable after studying sound machines for decades.* This is a serious objection to Quantum Archaeology. If the quantum world is random, then nothing is predictable in it. However we are already making successful probabilistic predictions in the quantum world, and systems have already been built achieving reliable results. It is easy to see how people think information could be lost into such a world but it's mysteries will surely fall to denouement as its laws are recorded. The moment prediction is viable, Cause and Effect exist, even if where those predictions are probabilistic, and my guess is that coming eras may think us foolish to believe Cause & Effect was suspended. This was also Einstein's view. The best position may be to just describe what is observable in the quantum and to delay explanations until we have enough to construct a theory. As things stand Relativity which has been proved experimentally, and Quantum Theory are in conflict. This area has not been resolved but we should proceed with QA none-the-less. See also Feynman's lecture on quantum Probability and Uncertainty in the "Messenger" series of lectures on Cornell University 1964 online, where the first 5 minutes are clear and the rest confused.

^ eg 1., The Pauli Exclusion Principle states no identical fermions may occupy the same quantum state at once.

eg 2., The Principle of Interchangeability states identical particles are absolutely interchangable, and this is likely to apply to many things in the quantum world.

¬ http://article.wn.co...ith_Seahawks_2/.

2012
Quote 1: "We shouldn't get freaked about having to do all the reconstruction at once. People think 'resurrecting someone from 1,000 years ago no way- toooo complex' but they could concede we MIGHT be able to reconstruct someone's DNA from then using probabilities. From the DNA you can do a clone...an identical body. Now you look for how the brain grew through their life to the moment of death. That can only be two ways...the DNA and the environment variables.At that point people say well OK you've got copies of them with no memories.But here where archaeology comes into its own. People's brain are reactants to their world...only that. Most of the variables in that world are going to be the landscape and the other people....and you are already computer-generating all the other people from their DNA. The other records and those you configure like the geological record the archaeological record the biological record climate record etc will all synthesize with incredible definition. If anyone existed at pretty much anytime in human history they're going to show up in these simulations warts and all. Again people wrongly think that memories are mystical, somehow outside the range of possible archaeological reconstruction, but they're physical entities same as bones ...each inevitable given the right variables. Note we're not just looking at the decayed brain and trying to get back the information dissolved as radiant heat, but we're coming at reassembly loads of different ways which facilitate each other on a quantum archaeology grid. I dont know how small we'll have to go, but my hunch is into the quantum world, even though the 'you' stuff of the body/brain is between 5 nanometres and one 3 metre body. "

Quote 2 :"The 2 big issues to get this:
1) Our ego's dont get all people are reconfigurable composites ;
2) Size of calculations needed is so massive people dont think when they could be done with future computers"

** see Extropian Principles http://www.maxmore.com/extprn3.htm





>>>>Go to first page of quantum archaeology

Edited by stopgam, 11 December 2012 - 02:19 PM.

[Turnbuckle]

While I'm not going to read through all this muddled thinking, I did scan it but found no idea worth debating. So if you could boil it down to something short and coherent, you might get better results.

[Julia36]

Turnbuckle the rest of us obey the forum debate rules but you dont think you have to?

The abstract is quite clear and posits hypercomputing and extreme statistics good enough to construct a quantum archaeology grid that can reconstruct human bodies and memories for any history. This is constructed causally, probabilistically and using the laws of physics.

I dont wish to qualify it, so unless you can post something scientific I'll withdraw from combat with you!

[Turnbuckle]

The abstract is quite clear and posits hypercomputing and extreme statistics good enough to construct a quantum archaeology grid that can reconstruct human bodies and memories for any history.

It is positing nonsense. Where does this hypercomputing start from, the present and work backwards? No matter where it starts it's impossible by the laws of science as understood today, but apparently the author is living in a Newtonian world instead of a quantum one.

[Julia36]

Turnbuckle I suspect ur a pain in the ass and I am unlikely to be the only one who thinks that?
However I see a glimmer of genuine scientific questing about you & I have rescinded your bull of excommunication:

Newton physics is the word we live in. His laws apply pretty much except where modified by Einstein and quantum theory?

For instance you use them to sew a leg back n and indeed to do stem cell research on brains.

I guess the best thing I can truly advise as a fellow armchair scientist is you read the paper.

It is longish AND ONLY IN NOTES STILL but can be read as you would pluck raisins out of a fruit cake.

No offence meant.

[Julia36]

This is a pivotal subjet...

If we can go back for the dead it changes everything.

It is a psychologically healthy reaction to think it is mad or blasphemy or sci-fi or heresy or religion.

It is only science, and I firmly think we could begin building a complex Quantum Archaeology Grid today.


It might help you read

• A Child's Guide to Quantum Archaeology (300 words) <<<~~~start here!!!

OK I'll post THAT!


Quantum Archaeology For Children

An archaeologist looks at old things and tries to rebuild them back to new.

Quantum Archaeology is about how to get back all the dead people who have ever lived in the world.

People who died long ago will soon be resurrected by science when we get bigger computers.

Its based on what we know about

• science,
• maths,
• computers, and
• NEW machines.

Scientists think we can wake up the dead. Then make them young again. They are talking about how to do it. They are drawing ways to wake up all the dead people back to life.

One of these ways is by doing very BIG sums.

Then we'll use tiny robots to build the dead back to life again!

LAWS OF THE VERY SMALL

The world of the very small seems spooky to grown ups! We must work out all it's laws.

LOTS OF SUMS TO DO

There are lots of sums to do. Sums can also be done as small drawings.
You can draw sums on a grid as shapes.

There are more small drawings for Quantum Archaeology than all the stars in the sky!

So we need MASSIVE computers to do them!

Titan is the biggest computer in the world.

We hope be able to wake up the dead people even when they've been forgotten.
This is because computers are getting faster:

When grown-ups were your age they had to read everything in books and newspapers: it took them years to see all the facts they wanted.

Today we can see lots of facts.

Next year people will wear computers!

We are building better things, bigger things, and faster things.
We think computers could do all the sums for us.
It doesn't matter when this happens... because the dead dont mind waiting!
Quantum Archaeology is new, big and fun.
Quantum Archaeology has lots of toys in it.

THE GRID

First we'll build the quantum archaeology grid .
[center]

Next we'll draw the dead people on it.
Then we'll do lots of cross- checking... to make sure we've got the right person!



When we build the grid, and cross-check all the laws -

We'll bring the dead people back to life with robots!
[center]

Adult version: :
http://sites.google....tumarchaeology/

Edited by stopgam, 11 December 2012 - 10:37 PM.

[Turnbuckle]

Newton physics is the word we live in. His laws apply pretty much except where modified by Einstein and quantum theory?

We always live in a quantum world. Even the most powerful computer can't predict when a single radioactive atom will decay, thus this whole idea is based on the impossible.

[daouda]

From quantum physics to quantum mysticism to quantum quackery/insanity, can someone knowledgeable explain me why this seems to be so frequent?

[JLL]

Newton physics is the word we live in. His laws apply pretty much except where modified by Einstein and quantum theory?

We always live in a quantum world. Even the most powerful computer can't predict when a single radioactive atom will decay, thus this whole idea is based on the impossible.

But is that because predicting radiactive atom decay is absolutely impossible, or because it is too difficult to calculate?

[JLL]

Is the basic principle behind this to create n different "before states" of the universe and then, using the laws of physics, calculate their future states and see which one matches the present? And from the one that matches, we can make out the person we're trying to resurrect?

Or am I understanding this completely wrong?

[Turnbuckle]

But is that because predicting radiactive atom decay is absolutely impossible, or because it is too difficult to calculate?

It's completely impossible. And it's worse than that--it's impossible to know everything about any particle at all. This is known as the Heisenberg uncertainty principle.

[Julia36]

Tarbucle :

>>>
We always live in a quantum world. Even the most powerful computer can't predict when a single radioactive atom will decay, thus this whole idea is based on the impossible.<<<<

You seem to think Quantum Archaeology is based on quantum theory and retrieving decayed subatomic particles?

It is not. You would see this if you could be bothered to read it.

QA isa suggesting building a grid to the smallest levels possible and that indeed could include the subatomic world, but not necessarily so.

the human brain that is relevant to memory is from 5 nanometres upwards ie not sub-atomics.

The fact the human brain existed IN ANY STATE is a mater of causality, ie its every state - every thought - was inevitable.

It follows if you know preceeding events and predict forwards you will find the brain states. (or retrodict backwards and do both adjacently)

Your other issue will become size of calculation, with requirements for the universe estimated (Nick Bostrom, Oxford)
at under 10^42 . We can only do 10^16 presently but quantum computers are likely to reach that in the 2020's and other advances inevitable IMO

[Julia36]

JILL wrote:

>>Is the basic principle behind this to create n different "before states" of the universe and then, using the laws of physics, calculate their future states and see which one matches the present? And from the one that matches, we can make out the person we're trying to resurrect?

Or am I understanding this completely wrong?<<<


The aim is to create a grid of ALL positions using the growing data banks were have, then calculate from events.

It is computaional archaeology in that sense.

part of it here:

Quantum Archaeology Grid

TOWARDS THE QUANTUM ARCHAEOLOGY GRID

"Number rules the universe" Pythagoras

Cosmic grids already exist and are growing in scale and complexity. The Sloan Digital Sky Survey is 3 times bigger than the New World Simulation only a year before

• The Quantum Archaeology Grid short version (400 words)

"...everything by number, weight and measure" Newton

In simple classical physics - the scale that human being exist at - every event has determined space time coordinates.

“Everything is determined…It is determined for the insect as well as for the star." Einstein

The Quantum Archaeology Grid is a dimensional grid sketched by plotting known events through history then drawing in the relational lines connecting them. The relational lines are dictated by the laws of science whose shapes are dictated by the events.


This connection systems also works backwards; by joining up events the laws of science may be plotted between events.

Without massive common sense (vast cross-referencing maxims across multiple domains) it is hard to see general science patterns.

We will construct timelines for a single event, and those timelines will intersect. The intersections allow cross referencing and undiscovered events to be charted. And all this takes place in the context of future technologies and mathematics that may seem incredible to us now.
Super recursive algorithms, algorithmic probabilities and other astonishing techniques allowing reconstructions, via the laws of science, of specific details of history, demystifying complex data.
When post human artificial intelligence is achieved, this will be done in an instant, and you may be able to run simulations of the whole world on your own computer down to the atomic levels. On present computer trends this will happen within 40 years.

A simple general timeline for medicine.

The Quantum Archaeology Grid must be a multi-dimensional grid plotting all known and deduced facts with wave mass density event intersections and their relational connecting lines (aka the laws of science). It must pull data from the archaeological record and add the other data banks like the biological record and the cosmological record being built by NASA. Coupled with things like records of DNA, geology, history and known science laws, we can computerize cosmic and quantum events and add the laws of physics which govern them. For examples of classes of events sites like wordbiz show some of the known scales. This is different from a proposed QA grid which will show particular individual particles throughout their history, as well as the rise and fall of fields.

That will enable the complex simulations we require to detail the past.

The quantum archaeology grid is therefore a map of space-time coordinates positioning known events from macro and meso to micro levels, enabling a reading of the complete details of people and their memories, past, present and to some extent future.

Forerunner to envisioned worldtime simulations, the first complete quantum grid has yet to be built. It should be possible to build it like a three dimensional film with massive zoom facilities, from the general cosmic to the microscopic and quantum perspectives. It seems an enormous undertaking, and if we had to do this by hand in today's technology it would be too complex to achieve. However, done by future computers, the task of data mining, synthesizing huge data banks, and moving via equations and axiomatic probability, to flowing multi-lateral representations of the past is pretty sure to happen.

Building layers from known events and making causal and probabilistic deductions from them, it will be possible to make predictions and retrodictions about every event, past, present and to some extent future along given timelines.

(Click to activate) Example of human brain memory field in flux.

It will be possible to run part-simulations of spacetime coordinates in the future, and much further ahead, of the entire environment, and we already have ones of the complete cosmos (below) which deals with big events.

(Click to enlarge) Example of a 3d grid. A 4d grid would be moving.

The relational lines between events are dictated by the laws of science, have knowable shapes and their progressions knowable courses and histories.

Timelines proceed, point to point, and depending on what is at that point, move on predictable and retrodictable paths. When they cross other lines, events are formed by energy densities. These lines can be plotted as wave or particle motions, but the easiest way is to assume everything is waves.

A person can be calculated as the intersections of event or time lines, which are geographically inevitable plots retrodicted from known sets in the present by geometry physics.

Every tiny event is connected causally to every other event by immutable geometries. It is improbable information can be lost, as there are many pathways to each event.

Human events are concentrations of energies and will show clearly on a quantum archaeology grid.

Illustrative example : Each event is made of smaller events. All exist by laws and are predictable and retrodictable with mathematics.

Unlike the archaeological record any event - a quantum wave event or a cosmic planetary event, it makes no difference - is drawn in as the effect of other events, proceeding along retrodictable relational lines and not by chance.

When enough events have been inserted into a quantum archaeology grid, it is therefore possible to read off any required event by referring to the coordinate axis.

Vast historical calculations with increasing detail can be done.

A sufficiently complex grid or matrix can compensate for entropic loss of information.

We're going to need a book of resurrection tables. An analogy would be the construction of the periodic table by Mendeleev.

Mendeleev pioneered grids for predicting atomic weights and make up of all elements in the universe which became known as the periodic table. 1869..

His original sketch

.

A grid can be expressed in many ways. The periodic table.


₁H ₂He ₃Li ₄Be ₅B ₆C ₇N ₈O ₉F ₁₀Ne ₁₁Na ₁₂Mg ₁₃Al ₁₄Si ₁₅P ₁₆S ₁₇Cl ₁₈Ar ₁₉K ₂₀Ca ₂₁Sc ₂₂Ti ₂₃V ₂₄Cr ₂₅Mn ₂₆Fe ₂₇Co ₂₈Ni ₂₉Cu ₃₀Zn ₃₁Ga ₃₂Ge ₃₃As ₃₄Se ₃₅Br ₃₆Kr ₃₇Rb ₃₈Sr ₃₉Y ₄₀Zr ₄₁Nb ₄₂Mo ₄₃Tc ₄₄Ru ₄₅Rh ₄₆Pd ₄₇Ag ₄₈Cd ₄₉In ₅₀Sn ₅₁Sb ₅₂Te ₅₃I ₅₄Xe ₅₅Cs ₅₆Ba ₅₇La ₇₂Hf ₇₃Ta ₇₄W ₇₅Re ₇₆Os ₇₇Ir ₇₈Pt ₇₉Au ₈₀Hg ₈₁Tl ₈₂Pb ₈₃Bi ₈₄Po ₈₅At ₈₆Rn ₈₇Fr ₈₈Ra ₈₉Ac ₁₀₄Rf ₁₀₅Db ₁₀₆Sg ₁₀₇Bh ₁₀₈Hs ₁₀₉Mt ₁₁₀Ds ₁₁₁Rg ₁₁₂Cp 113 114 115 116 117 118 ₅₈Ce ₅₉Pr ₆₀Nd ₆₁Pm ₆₂Sm ₆₃Eu ₆₄Gd ₆₅Tb ₆₆Dy ₆₇Ho ₆₈Er ₆₉Tm ₇₀Yb ₇₁Lu ₉₀Th ₉₁Pa ₉₂U ₉₃Np ₉₄Pu ₉₅Am ₉₆Cm ₉₇Bk ₉₈Cf ₉₉Es ₁₀₀Fm ₁₀₁Md ₁₀₂No ₁₀₃Lr

Wouldn't it be great if like trees, people has rings inside telling their histories? - We do, it is the epigenetic genome, and all people carry their unique copies which change through their lives and can be passed on.

Looking like tree rings everyone carries an epigenetic profile wrapped round their DNA which is a history map of their environment.

In it is a record of a person's environment. Understand this, and we understand important parts of the environment. This can be plotted into the quantum archaeology grid to give ever more useful data for calculations.

Turing was working on universal matrices when he killed himself. His paper on morphogenesis shows understanding of fractals and inflation and the interrelation of numbers and orders as the world is built.

Everything in the cosmos is ordered, lawful and inevitable.Everything moves according to laws alone, and is predictable and retrodictable by doing calculations with those laws. These images were all generated mathematically. the whole of nature is a response to intense deterministic order, and this is true for the quantum world as well as the world of human and bigger sizes.

This may look like a tree but it is just made of numbers running on a computer. It seems everything in our universe can be described by numbers.

A human brain is no different from any other artefact you are trying to restore, its just smaller, a problem which computers will sweep aside.

The quantum archaeology grid is infinitely scalable both in sizes and other dimensions such as chronological time.

The one likely to be used for raising the ancient dead is a four dimension archaeological grid.

For human history back 50,000 years the quantum archaeology grid will be highly complex, but not infinite.

Euclid's 'sacred geometry' which was thought magic, gave Man the ability to construct and analyze.

It will exist as equations and data in computing quantum computers, and will supply answers for requests about descriptions of human states in the past, where a given human being could be in a timeline of progressive maturation states from conception to death. It can also be printed out as an ephemeris or viewed as a 4 dimensional grid (3d moving simulations) on a screen.

The grid of a brain,

It can obviously be drafted as rows of static data and doesn't need to be pictorial nor moving. To follow the thoughts of a single individual over ten seconds could be read off as columns of statistics or viewed as simulations in a neural network development tank.

(Click to activate). Example of events moving in space-time coordinates. The events can be insects or stars, or quantums. Note how one event affects another by laws and not by chance..

We have already built moving models of the universe and can look at it over billions of years. It is the largest quantum archaeology grid we have, and in the future will show men living out their lives from the past, focusing in to any level of detail we desire. Quantum Archaeology will attempt make accurate simulations of our universe in enough detail to plot people's whole lives and thoughts giving us the coordinate equations to resurrect them. It is logical we begin to build huge machines that detect the quantum world, and we have already begun working out the laws of small events with miles-wide particle accelerators

<a href="http://www.google.co...gF-CxT-AR28Ng">NASA model universe (best used on a supercomputer)

Galactic simulations over billions of years are being done with tiny resources in local groups. The data is complied as a grid, and simulations extracted by video converters. Here is one cited on Kurzweilai newsletter in August 2012 over billions of years.
personal computer galaxy simulation 2012 ( about 1 minute)

(Click to enlarge. This scales up) Google has begun mapping the Milky Way.

This must lead to a convergence and assimilation of all data bases record s and charts into the Quantum Archaeology Grid, or a general historical gird under any name you choose.
At present data bases are where search engines before google where...lists of separate entries, everyone doing their own way. But merging tools are being built that can combine data bases on your own computer to produce idiosyncratic readings.
Eventually one GRID will emerge for common use...Google maps have a huge part to play as Stanford understands data as much as most commercial companies.
Longer term, data collection will be irrelevant because base data at earlier universe times, will be pin pointed and perfected by acute observations, then by knowledge cosmic laws and all probable events generated, then only timeline true events extracted at the press of a mouse.
If there are not laws in the quantum world, things cannot exist, as patterns would have no constraint boundaries. If there are laws, they must necessarily follow Cause and Effect even though we can presently only conceive their vast, complex interactions probabilistically.


[center]

The quantum grid can be built to plot the history and evolution of every quantum particle.


Back to main site>>>>>> Quantum Archaeology

[platypus]

Is simulation of our universe too big for you to imagine?

Yes, absolutely since you need to simulate all possible outcomes of all quantum effects since the Big Bang. How do you think that will be technologically feasible? How are you going to fit enough processing power and memory in the universe to do that? Absolute humbug I say, and totally pointless to ponder in this era.

[Turnbuckle]

You can't ignore the quantum world as you are doing because its random effects trickle up into the macroscopic world. Then you have to deal with the butterfly effect--that even the smallest change can produce enormous effects, and that includes quantum changes that can't be predicted. So doesn't matter how big your computer is, this idea will always be impossible.

Edited by Turnbuckle, 12 December 2012 - 02:20 PM.

[Julia36]

It's not helpful to get stuck on the Quantum Theory...because NO-ONE knows how its working.

the 2012 nobel prize for physics went for observation and measurement of issolated quantum systems, so presumably it MUSTY operate by laws. OIf so, then with enough calculation power it must be predictable and restrodictable.


However to assert it is beyond science and doesn't operate by laws, or is controlled by an invisible intelligent mind (which Max Planck, it's founder stated ( any google quote source) is contra science..


daouda:

we dont do calculation by brute force but by mathematics. eg if I want to record a million
roman soldiers are given 100 chariots each, I DONT list each as a unit and add them, but simply input

10^6 X 10^2 which takes up VERY little space.

The whole point about finding laws is to make short cuts!

So the calculation power needed is less of a factor as you find more laws.

Quantum Theory and Relativity are in conflict.

One or both are wrong as explanations.

My own belief is that the quantum world is big and that obscures it's causality, which was also Einstein's view.

But the important point IMO is can we reconfigure the past, because that indeed will only be a product of

a) our calculation powers
b) our archaeological and statistical techniques.



Statistics, is founded on agreed memes. It is a self-referential but unbounded system. It helps information survival by accurate calculation plotting. Solomonoff's algorithmic information theory which led to Algorithmic Probability was a landmark advance in statistics and he was one of the original founders of Artificial Intelligence.

He confirmed probabilistic assumptions on averaging during conversations and emails with me before and after AI@50, which was a meeting of 150 world experts in Artificial Intelligence at the Second Dartmouth Park Conference in 2006. The first had been 50 years previously, where A.I. had been invented, and I predict the next one will demonstrate Superintelligence, and also that I will be rejuvenated or resurrected to attend it!

Has mankind been defeated by Death or can the imagination of scientists revoke it?

The idea that the quantum world is random is what is preposterous.

We simply dont know what it is. However everything that we can observe is causal...without exception.

Edited by stopgam, 12 December 2012 - 02:51 PM.

[Julia36]

You can't ignore the quantum world as you are doing because its random effects trickle up into the macroscopic world. Then you have to deal with the butterfly effect--that even the smallest change can produce enormous effects, and that includes quantum changes that can't be predicted. So doesn't matter how big your computer is, this idea will always be impossible.

hoho,

That's a fair point...the world is thew wqrld and we have to take ALL of it or not bother.
I dispute there is ONE random efect anywhere in the world.

The butterfly effect objection is simply part of the agog at the SIZE of calculation needed. That may seem huge by today's machines and maths. But at SOME point we will indeed be able to calculate enough, and I assert this because of trends like Moore's Law.

We see only a glimpse of the quantum world, like the elephant we think it a rope, a trunk a rock depending where we touch it in our quantum blindness
Einstein was great...the greatest scientist in world history People pop up periodically with 'Proofs' he was wrong,- they all get over turned and the quantum world will be proved to be cause and effect I am sure.

In the meantime no-one knows how it works so my wager is as good as yours.Meanwhile, advances are being made in quantum technology BASED on causality ie we are finding laws and applying them, we are also observing and measuring.


I reiterate MOST of quantum archaeology can be done in classical mechanics and using maths on existing computers.

Hypatia who was scraped to death by Christians for teaching science.


But here are the words of your here an inventor of the Quantum Theory and you judge for yourself which of us is barking:

"All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force... We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent Mind. This Mind is the matrix of all matter."
Max Planck (churchwarden and practicing christian)

Einstein "Everything is determined...it is determined for the insects as well as for the star"

I'm with Einstein...mainly because he went painstakingly slow like and archaeologist whilst others ran ahead missing important bits coming up with a lunatic explanation dismissing Galileo's first maxim. They're so clever they dont need it!

For thousands of years mankind believed the world was created all at once until people like Darwin - who were also as painstakingly slow as archaeologists...pieced it together.

No-one understands the quantum world, but to state it is non-causal is madness. We are only on the edge of it.


The dead will rise.

Excavations of Pompeii where Mount Vesuvius erupted and ashed the town in 79C.E.

Edited by stopgam, 12 December 2012 - 03:28 PM.

[Turnbuckle]

I dispute there is ONE random efect anywhere in the world.

This is the appropriate place for you to quote Einstein saying God doesn't throw dice.

[Julia36]

He is correct and was using God as analogy.

Understand this:

if the quantum world has laws, it is causal.

Probability ios used when the experimental tank is too big to compute.

the moment we can compute it by understanding its laws, we use cause & effect.

eg a crowd.

You cannot configure the actions of any one person so use probability.

However when you KNOW the causal laws of the individuals you wrote a big equation/algorithms

Penrose and others are challenging quantum theory as an explanation.

But I reiterate quantum archaeology accommodates both classical and quantum science and what matters is what we can accurately predict. Prediction Mr Steven Hawking will be a millionaire:



A

[platypus]

Quantum effects are by nature probabilistic, not deterministic. This is not caused by our inability to know all variables affecting the situation, but the indeterminacy is a founding principle of quantum mechanics. Since quantum mechanics works so well one can conclude that "gods" made the universe indeterministic at a fundamental level.

https://en.wikipedia...nt_developments

...and even if you wanted to simulate some classical sub-system in the universe the butterfly-effect dictates that you'd need to know the initial state in infinite precision and therefore you'd also need to carry the computations out in infinite precision. This will never be possible without infinite amount of memory, which will never be available. And even if it would, you'll never know the initial state of any past system in infinite precision. So even in a classical world, you're screwed and "resurrecting" people by computation is a pipe-dream.

[Julia36]

platypus wrote (until I get the hang of this site!_)

Quantum effects are by nature probabilistic, not deterministic. This is not caused by our inability to know all variables affecting the situation, but the indeterminacy is a founding principle of quantum mechanics. Since quantum mechanics works so well one can conclude that "gods" made the universe indeterministic at a fundamental level.

https://en.wikipedia...nt_developments

..and even if you wanted to simulate some classical sub-system in the universe the butterfly-effect dictates that you'd need to know the initial state in infinite precision and therefore you'd also need to carry the computations out in infinite precision. This will never be possible without infinite amount of memory, which will never be available. And even if it would, you'll never know the initial state of any past system in infinite precision. So even in a classical world, you're screwed and "resurrecting" people by computation is a pipe-dream.<<<<<

I refute it.

Probability is used on a syetm which is too big to know each varable in it.

It is bonkers to assert we understand the quantum world. We certainly dont. If fact the saying 'If you think you understand the quantum theory you dont understand the quantum theory' is oft quoted.

However it is a masd for me to assert i think your position wrong except for this.
Cause and Effect is evident evrywhere. Technology is built on it.

Quantum machines are built on it in te snese they utilise laws, make measurements and observations (Physics Nobel Prize 2012).

My own views on the quantum for what they're worth (not much0 is that we are just on the edge of it. Hidden variables have been wrongly dismissed, since if the quantum is non determinate, it cannot repeat: probability is a subset of Causality untilizing the existance of repeatable laws.

MY MAIN ARGUMENT

nothing to do with quantum worlds:

By restrodiction you can achieve reconstruction. thuis is the methiod of archaeology and we use probability where there is too much data to be specific.

Re INFINITY

You could look at Cantorian infinity maths which enables infinite calculation. your arguemnts that the butterfly effect means stuff is to big to be calculated, should surely hold in the meso world we live in.

But that is not the case.

We can indeed predict weather systems & with increasing accuracy.

More coming quantum compuyters and super-recursive algorithms can do near infinite calculations. Combined with Cantorian infinity maths we can theoretically calculate anythig.
NB The size of the calculations is irrelevant as you use semiotics or abstraction.

THE BEST ANSWER

is that we are already doing it in classical physics. the outside of a skull does not operate by different laws to the inside of one!

Reconstruction of the philosopher Copernicus from his skull.(Polish police).

Let me ask you this:

do you think the quantum world operates by laws?

[Julia36]

Size of calculations is no longer a restriction on maths with hyopercomputing and super-recursive algorithms.

[Julia36]

Turnbucle wrote:

>>You can't ignore the quantum world as you are doing because its random effects trickle up into the macroscopic world.<<<<

Exactly!
and it must necessarily be the other way round too.

We deal with not two systems...the absurd contention of modern science...that contradict each other, but ONE system: we have MUCH knowledge of the big world and little of the quantum.

The universe is surely interactive, and though we dont understand nor observe much of it yet, the world of the very small surely is governed by laws, and not by an invisible intelligent mind as Planck thought who is a founder of quantum theory.

The dismissal of Einstein is stupid, and that it is done in a big way is a big stupidity.

[platypus]

It is bonkers to assert we understand the quantum world. We certainly dont. If fact the saying 'If you think you understand the quantum theory you dont understand the quantum theory' is oft quoted.

It's more bonkers that you've decided that the most successful theory of the microscopic world is "wrong" based on a philosophical hunch that "the world cannot have indeterministic parts". Who are you to dictate how the universe can or cannot work?

MY MAIN ARGUMENT

nothing to do with quantum worlds:

By restrodiction you can achieve reconstruction. thuis is the methiod of archaeology and we use probability where there is too much data to be specific.

Re INFINITY

You could look at Cantorian infinity maths which enables infinite calculation. your arguemnts that the butterfly effect means stuff is to big to be calculated, should surely hold in the meso world we live in.

But that is not the case.

We can indeed predict weather systems & with increasing accuracy.

You're simply wrong. There's no way out of the problem that the "butterfly effect" causes in fully classical physics. The computational requirements will easily exceed literally any increases in computing speed. And since you cannot ever know the initial condition with infinite precision, a change in the 10000th digit in ONE of your initial variables will completely change the outcome of the calculation.

More coming quantum compuyters and super-recursive algorithms can do near infinite calculations. Combined with Cantorian infinity maths we can theoretically calculate anythig.NB The size of the calculations is irrelevant as you use semiotics or abstraction.

You will never have infinite precision, as the universe is finite and therefore too small to store an instance of an infinitely large number.

Let me ask you this:

do you think the quantum world operates by laws?

Yes, and those laws seem to be fundamentally indeterministic at the microscopic level. These laws explain for example ALL of electromagnetics so they cannot be dismissed by philosophical ponderings. This shit works!

[Julia36]

Ho! I conceed many of your points...mainly because I dont understand how the quantum world operates. But do you? Does anyone?

I'll side step quantum theory as it ISN'T the basis of Quantum Archaeology although my grasp of science is that causality cannot be dismissed - anywhere, we just dont know what's going on in the very small world. Yet we have systems that are beginning to utilize and measure there and in 2010 the first quantum machine was built (other than quantum computers).

My feeling is if we can construct the quantum archaeology grid like a map of all historical events, we can fill in the gaps (unknown events) by the laws of physics.



BTW our universe thought to be one of many mathematically, by M-Theory (wiki) and it is not true to say it is a closed/finite system.

It should be possible to "see" back into the past using coming calculating machines.

BTW people use indeterminate incorrectly and this is pervasive in science. True randomess or indeterminancy means no prdiction is possible and no LAW is possible.

But not even quantum theory advances this: there are laws in the quantum world that necessarily means it is lawful and law is absolutely causal, ie when you do this you will get that.

The fact we can only do it probabilistically @ present is just how far our science has evolved.

Paul Benioff who did the first quantum computer designs also invented 'quantum robots' which would go into the world of the small to operate.

i wonder if there is a smallest or biggest anything? I doubt it, but that;s just mu position.

For human memory reconstructions we look about at 5 nanometres to one metre.

you dont need to chase the decaying subatomic particle, but only construct prototype brains for the period DNA histories, and factr inot the massive, growing data bases, geological, biological, archaeological, cosmic etc.

Big enough computing would indeed necessarily guarantee you get maps of everyone who has ever lived, then you whittle that down, casting out the impossible. Forensic science: elementary my dear chap!

I dont doubt QM works...but that's just it laws work and a law cannot be indeterminate. That is chaos from the bible.
Law mean prediction means determinism.