2214 replies to this topic

[Julia36]

Civilisation experiences MASSIVE deflation in many breaking techs.



As 3D printers drop to the cost of cellphones (£10 in UK)

you should be able to print your deceased relatives.

As we can 3D print a gun.a camera will be next.

Here are some things doable now:
http://www.3ders.org/

The problems will be legal not technological

Today: 3 D printers launched for £264-



.
Pirate3D’s Kickstarter For Sub-$400 Buccaneer 3D Printer Launches Tomorrow

Edited by Innocent, 30 May 2013 - 10:17 AM.

[Julia36]

BILL GATES CONDEMNS QUANTUM ARCHAEOLOGY AS MORALLY WRONG.

ABC today.

He attacks all life extension.
But who is Bill Gates?

[Julia36]

But in reply to accusations this is just vanguard, speculative science




Quantum Archaeology

Edited by Innocent, 30 May 2013 - 10:19 AM.

[platypus]

You are not replying to any of the criticism, just spamming your stream-of-thoughts of the moment

By the way, what would it take to prove to you that QA was probably impossible? Is it a falsifiable hypothesis, or a religion?

[Julia36]

You are not replying to any of the criticism, just spamming your stream-of-thoughts of the moment

Thankyou Platypus.

I have gone to lengths to refute your claims that Quantum Theory invalidates all other science.

It is not true I have flamed excessively as the original I pasted from has significantly changed.

By the way, what would it take to prove to you that QA was probably impossible? Is it a falsifiable hypothesis, or a religion?

As quantum archaeology is already happening, you could not prove to me it was impossible!



to prove it was probably impossible you would have to show that data from the past, beyond the oldest required for human recoveries, is irrecoverable.

Since we have recovered information from 100's of millions of years back by probability & deduction
this could not be proven. (see Joe Thornton's work in evolutionary biology eg on reconstructing a prehistoric proton pump)

Another to show that brain is a special case of historical data, unnameable to the laws of science.

[Julia36]

It is possible ur travelling too fast for me to understand what ur saying, but it seems to be the challenges from quantum theory and that there are equivilent numbers of histories in the past as in the future.

That is not the case...cannot be the case in an inflating universe.

You can easily see this by looking at biological complexity evolution.

[Julia36]

This is my position on Quantum Theory:


1. The world of the small, as well as the world of the big, operates by laws.

2. Information is incapable of being destroyed. (Susskind)

3. We are using statistics with dazzling competence in the quantum world and it is inevitable that we retrieve information about deceased people.



Storyline Emperor's New Clothes:
https://www.youtube....h?v=baVkpul4XoU

-Other than that I personally believe it a mistake to ditch causation in the quantum world, that the Copenhagen theory is wrong, that it has been replaced by at least one causal theory, that Quantum Theory has absurdities in it like the Emperor's New Clothes, and that its success is from statistics not physics.










Quantum Archaeology does not depend on Classical physics for survival, but can accommodate Quantum Theory, since both MUST operate by laws, and where there are laws there is prediction.
Deeper than Probability, the quantum world has to reveal exactly how it is working by cause and effect and explain the foolish theories like quantum indeterminancy, the observer effect, and things popping into being uncaused. I'm uneasy that physics moves by very few pioneering minds and the only test in technology should be what can be built? and in physics: what are the laws?

Edited by Innocent, 31 May 2013 - 02:26 AM.

[Julia36]

.

Edited by Innocent, 31 May 2013 - 05:00 AM.

[Julia36]

Newton physics is the word we live in. His laws apply pretty much except where modified by Einstein and quantum theory?

We always live in a quantum world. Even the most powerful computer can't predict when a single radioactive atom will decay, thus this whole idea is based on the impossible.

Why cant it?

[Julia36]

[Julia36]

We've been expecting to hit the knee of the curve (assumed to be Superintelligence construction) since 2000.

Verner Vinge gves a max date of 2030. Kurzweil 2045. I think about 2027.

But even Bill Gates who thought predictions to optimistic said yesterday A.I. would definitely come.
When A.I, or Time travel come, we have resurrection.

[Julia36]

The world follow Laws . Quantum systems are known to be reversible.
There is nothing which does not exist by law. Therefore information is logically impossible to destroy.

What seems so monstrously complex it looks like anarchy, is complexity and capable of being calculated:

Information we assemble by retrodiction, we can simulate so accurately it is no different from looking through a telescope. The past is coming faster than the future.

Edited by Innocent, 31 May 2013 - 05:32 AM.

[Julia36]

The dead are rising. At first as surface reconstructions, but with information physics, as living individuals.



"The skulls that were used belong to a 6,000-year-old male buried in the Judean desert; an infant of the same period found lying in a fetal position inside a jar in the Jordan Valley; a woman from the era and region of famous biblical personalities Samson and Delilah, discovered near Ashkelon, and a Galilean male who evidently was alive during the time of Jesus."

These aren't spurious, but facial reconstructions from surviving fragments.

It is only a matter of time, of computing power, until actual living brains are drafted in dynamic mathematics: we have already been successful with extinct micro-organisms where nothing of them remained.

Faithful recontruction "Turkana Boy, also occasionally, Nariokotome Boy is the common name of fossil KNM-WT 15000, a nearly complete skeleton of a hominid who died in the early Pleistocene. This specimen is the most complete early human skeleton ever found. It is 1.5 million years old. Turkana Boy is classified as either Homo erectus or Homo ergaster."

It is but a step to the brain.






actual cycle.






This is an open archaeology project

(http://arc-team-open...sic-facial.html)

As Archaeology computerises, assemblies will be massively deeper and then move to individual living specimens assembled by microrobotics.

Edited by Innocent, 31 May 2013 - 06:14 AM.

[Turnbuckle]

Newton physics is the word we live in. His laws apply pretty much except where modified by Einstein and quantum theory?

We always live in a quantum world. Even the most powerful computer can't predict when a single radioactive atom will decay, thus this whole idea is based on the impossible.

Why cant it?

It's at the very basis of reality that we can't have full knowledge of the states of any particle. It's called the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle.

[Julia36]

Quantum effects are by nature probabilistic, not deterministic. This is not caused by our inability to know all variables affecting the situation, but the indeterminacy is a founding principle of quantum mechanics. Since quantum mechanics works so well one can conclude that "gods" made the universe indeterministic at a fundamental level.

No they're not.

The laws are DESCRIBED probabilistically because we dont know how their causality works.

The main reason for this is we cant observe them
Galileo's first maxim states:

Observation THEN explanation.

It may be a few years before we can observe the quantum world, but it will be done
Until then we'll use fantastically brilliant [probability statistics.

[Julia36]

Newton physics is the word we live in. His laws apply pretty much except where modified by Einstein and quantum theory?

We always live in a quantum world. Even the most powerful computer can't predict when a single radioactive atom will decay, thus this whole idea is based on the impossible.

Why cant it?

It's at the very basis of reality that we can't have full knowledge of the states of any particle. It's called the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle.

Yes I'm aware of that barking lunacy, conveniently unprovable since the stuff under investigation is too small to observe. The man on the Clapham Omnibus is not so lunatic: he runs his life according to Cause and Effect which works.



Throw out Causation and you throw out science. For Cause & Effect is the biggest discovery by mankind, and science has driven down a cul-de-sac.

Probability is highly useful..indispensable, but it is not capable of dismissing causation.
the correct position is to say that probability works in the quantum world but how weird effects are happening is unknown...not that they prove causation is abolished.

NB where there is Law, there is necessarily causation One implies the other., and probability itself is but a branch of Causation.

That is my argument from ignorance, based on experience and following silly paths in physics which spring up periodically. eg Big Bang was said to be the non-causal spontaneous creation for the universe from nothing.

This preposterous view was even taught in schools and universities as true until Ed Witten showed M- Theory and many universes existed.

Maxims abounded like "If you think you understand quantum theory, you dont understand quantum theory" and "No-one understands quantum theory"

It is an attempt, very human, to introduce the mystical, the fantastic as proof of God: ie mysterious therefore God.
We cannot be immune to our education

secondly, Quantum Archaeology is already happening..we are already 'resurrecting' the past on microlevels

The intelligent thinker racks his brains thinking he must be ignorant and stupid because he doesn't understand quantum theory...well it is wrong in some essential assertions therefore not understandable:- the worst of these is the dismissal of causality.
.
10 de-bunked scientific beliefs

Phlogiston
Maternal Impression
Vitalism
The Four Humors
Geocentricity
California Island
Alchemy
World Ice Theory
Rain Follows the Plow
(“Rain Follows the Plow” is the name given to a climatology concept which is now completely debunked. The theory said that human settlement caused a permanent increase in rainfall – thus enabling man to move to areas previously considered arid. It is this 19th century theory that brought about the settlement of the Great Plains (previously known as the Great American Desert), and parts of South Australia. The theory was eventually refuted by climatologists, and in the settled areas of South Australia, drought brought an end to the attempted settlements.)

Nobel Prize winning doesn't affect the wrong paths science takes (but it is always lack of science like inability to observe yet making sweeping explanations, eg there is no cause and effect in the quantum world):
Nobel committee retroactively awarded Fibiger the 1926 prize in 1927. About a decade later, however, a series of experiments proved that Fibiger was wrong.
, this Danish scientist found that he could induce abnormal cell growth in rats by feeding them cockroaches that were infected with a species of worm"



Some of these held for 100's of years
http://listverse.com...fs-of-the-past/



10. Spontaneous combustion:

"Before microscopes (NB BEFORE OBSERVATION) and theories of cells and germs, man had other ideas about the creation of living things. .... bizarrely believed that maggots come spontaneously from rotting meat. Proponents of this view (virtually everyone) used the Bible as a source of evidence, due to the fact that God made man from dust. However, the view did exist before Christianity and Aristotle said, in no uncertain terms, that some animals grow spontaneously and not from other animals of their kind. Earlier believers had to come up with some pretty strange ideas to make their theory work: Anaximander (a Greek philosopher who taught Pythagoras) believed that at some point in man’s history, humans had been born from the soil spontaneously in adult form, otherwise they could never have survived."

does this sound familiar????

Quantum Theory has to come up with more & more bizzare theories to make it work, like an evolving gambling system that eventually has to take Tuesday out of the week for it to fit all past results.



How one could ever believe the observer could effect the experiment and not equate it on the same footing as keeping the door open during photographic development is astonishing.

The muddling into to quantum theory of the observer, consciousness, free will is further indication that it is nuts.

Probability yes..non-causal logically impossible.

Edited by Innocent, 31 May 2013 - 02:48 PM.

[Turnbuckle]

Newton physics is the word we live in. His laws apply pretty much except where modified by Einstein and quantum theory?

We always live in a quantum world. Even the most powerful computer can't predict when a single radioactive atom will decay, thus this whole idea is based on the impossible.

Why cant it?

It's at the very basis of reality that we can't have full knowledge of the states of any particle. It's called the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle.

Yes I'm aware of that barking lunacy, conveniently unprovable since the stuff under investigation is too small to observe.

Einstein didn't believe it either, and he and a couple of others proposed a "paradox" that would disprove it. It's called the EPR Paradox, and it isn't really a paradox at all because it's based on assumptions about reality that aren't' correct. The EPR effect is non-local but does not violate causality, and has been demonstrated in the lab.

[Julia36]

Newton physics is the word we live in. His laws apply pretty much except where modified by Einstein and quantum theory?

We always live in a quantum world. Even the most powerful computer can't predict when a single radioactive atom will decay, thus this whole idea is based on the impossible.

Why cant it?

It's at the very basis of reality that we can't have full knowledge of the states of any particle. It's called the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle.

Yes I'm aware of that barking lunacy, conveniently unprovable since the stuff under investigation is too small to observe.

Einstein didn't believe it either, and he and a couple of others proposed a "paradox" that would disprove it. It's called the EPR Paradox, and it isn't really a paradox at all because it's based on assumptions about reality that aren't' correct. The EPR effect is non-local but does not violate causality, and has been demonstrated in the lab.

yes Einstein tried to offer an alternative to quantum theory unsuccessfully.

But failure is the basis of science...eg most lab experiments fail.

One importance of Einstein to quantum theory is his insistence you cant throw away Causation without observable evidence.

By Why not?

I mean what is the physical process of radiation which we wrongly deem to be non-predicatable?

You sure;y cant mean atomic decay happens by chance without being able to OBSERVE it?




Probability and chaos wont do here, we have to go smaller in our measurement (observation capabilities and stay true to Galileo's first maxim: Observation THEN explanation. We simply cant observe radiation well enough yet. Throwing out scientific truths is foolhardy)

Edited by Innocent, 31 May 2013 - 02:58 PM.

[Turnbuckle]

You sure;y cant mean atomic decay happens by chance without being able to OBSERVE it?

It happens by chance and we CAN observe it. What we can't do is predict it except statistically.

[Julia36]

1. Chance?


Then you dont believe laws limit and govern the cosmos?

Brownian motion was thought to be chance until Einstein used probability to predict.

Care to define chance?

2. By observe I mean observe the whole decay process not just the result of the decay like radiation emission recorded on sensitive paper, but its precursors.

You sure;y cant mean atomic decay happens by chance without being able to OBSERVE it?

It happens by chance and we CAN observe it. What we can't do is predict it except statistically.

But that's the issue:
physics is not statistics.

[Turnbuckle]

Then you dont believe laws limit and govern the cosmos?

I didn't say that at all.

[Julia36]

What is your position on whether the universe is governed by laws?

Edited by Innocent, 31 May 2013 - 04:56 PM.

[Julia36]

Then you dont believe laws limit and govern the cosmos?

I didn't say that at all.

?

[Julia36]

TED De-Extinction talk

de-extinction is coming.

http://tedxdeextinction.org/

Resurrection of the dead is coming from deep computing.

Quantum Archaeology

First Species resurrection then individuals.

Edited by Innocent, 01 June 2013 - 01:58 AM.

[Julia36]

We are at the edge of being able to computerise evolution....and run it backwards.


From maths -----> to simple grid readings ------> to pictorial displays



The data is already there waiting to be inputed and manipulated





Our simulations- based on data- will seem very crude in 10 years.


the human being...and the human brain, evolve and modify as specific and determinable reactions to the environment.

THe environment is knowable through geological, biological and other records. Nothing happens by chance, and EVERYTHING alters by Laws.







In the 2020's computing power will be massively better and upon entering the Records we have in science (artefacts and variables) we will have enough computerised data and calculation power to accurately describe ANYTHING that has ever lived on earth
down to the quantum building blocks.

~ this included the bran and memories.

The difficulty for most people to imagine this is the size of it...the world in a computer simulation.

It is possible just because there is so much we can check against the Records, that cross checking vast data against itself at vast speeds will eliminate impossible pathways, and show up events that certainly HAD to happen.

You just strike out impossible time lines.

Edited by Innocent, 01 June 2013 - 06:55 AM.

[Julia36]

Could you explain how you will "simulate" what an _isolated_ person will think about without simulating their "future" from the last moment you could observe them? This is no different from predicting the future thoughts of you from the moment you enter an isolation tank. Good luck with that.

Thoughts people have in isolation are not random but inevitable.
They are inevitable based on

a) the complete state of their biology
b) the complete state of their environment.

If those can be known you can predict their futures and retrodict their pasts.

The information you need is flying away at the speed of light. Did you place quasi-infinite detectors at the end of space-time to catch this data? If not, QA is toast.

Whatever flies away leaves traces from where it was.

Wrong. You won't have the information about prior states since it flew away at practically the speed of light, which ensures that you will NEVER catch it.

You dont have to catch anything. You examine the artefacts and physics in the present and trace back from them using Causation and Probability..

think of it as a missing jigsaw piece being lost and you have figure out what its shape was.

Edited by Innocent, 01 June 2013 - 07:47 AM.

[Warren Harding]

I think you have to look back to look forwards. Remember ENIAC? Now take a minute to try and imagine what computers are going to look like in 50 years. The technological resurrection problem is very similar to the computed tomography problem of MRI's and Cat scans. It is largely a problem of enormous computational requirements and a very high sensor measurement count. In response to those who wonder if this is a provable hypothesis, one should be able to prove it is possible. 1.) You can calculate state within a small local area at a previous point in time through the use of sensors and modified computed tomography algorithms. 2.) Through the use of more computational power and more sensor measurements, one can calculate state further back in time and within a larger volume. Given the mind-boggling scale of the calculation requirements, I think you have to think out of the box some. Repcores.com describes a concept that may provide the type of computational requirements desired, as well as the in-situ requirements desired for large sensor arrays and reconstruction. Don't forget that this is not a quarterly report type of problem. Accomplishing it within decades would be a feat. Thinking centuries ahead is difficult, but clearly if one heads in this direction now, it should eventually be possible.

Edited by Warren Harding, 01 June 2013 - 09:07 PM.

[Julia36]

Thanks for your good response Warren Harding.

I agree pretty much with what you've said. Just the time scale I differ with.

i differ with most people on it because of my calculations around the speeding of technology.

It was announced computers have sped 30,000 in the last few weeks as D wave's made commercial sales of quantum computers.

These are expected to have sorted error problems by 2022 (ibm) and will do near infinite calculations in the blink of an eye on a wide range of calcs.

Exponential growth is weird: although advances are on definite known trends, at first it looks like nothings happening,

When the knee of the curve is hit and they explode.



General technology is speeding.


Archaeology is converting to information, and information growth accelerates like this:



You see the knee of the curve...looks quiet then BAM!

Growth so fast you cant predict what's coming next.

This isn't fantasy, we can say exactly how this happens in computing capacity.




Question is how do you calculate

1) 1) the number of calculations needed.

2) when the processing power will be here to do them.

So my estimate is 2027 for accurately drafting and 3 D printing out any dead person (as living with their illness/aging corrected)


Nick Bostrom @ Oxford has estimated:

"(for) a realistic simulation of human history...we can use ~10^33 - 10^36 operations as a rough estimate. As we gain more experience with virtual reality, we will get a better grasp of the computational requirements (100 billion humans50 years/human30 million secs/year[10^14, 10^17] operations in each human brain per second [10^33, 10^36] operations."

- and he show the 1/3 logik we are in a simulation

in a video here:

http://www.simulation-argument.com/


There's a definite timeline for things happening which you can make reasonable estimations about.
You cant plot in the unguessable...catastrophe's or leaps from crackpot inventors working in their sheds.

eg A.I. is easier to build stuff with than 2-3 years ago and weak A.I. is standard on smart phones.

Google have tenured in Hinton and Kurzweil to work with neural nets and natural language respectively around knowledge graphs - both with teams and access to google's large facilities (google build a dat base the size of a town, and others are constructing ones.

My main stuff's machine intelligence not QA, and I would have needed £200 million for a project in 2001 which today can be done in 1/10 of the time for £12ml and miles less staff.

To reverse engineer what a man is - seems sacrilege..but the successive breakthroughs


Galileo...we're not the centre of the universe


Darwin..we're just apes..



Einstein...Man's time doesn't exist...it;s relative





Everett....zillions of copies of us are produced all the time






Ettinger...people can be frozen and death is not special.


Tipler...everything's calculable and resurrection inevitable




Aubrey de Grey.... death is not inevitable but an interuptable biological process




and I think now, Quantum Archaeology also seems direct attacks on human specialness: ie that death is irreversible when we know information is incapable of destruction.

Edited by Innocent, 02 June 2013 - 07:28 AM.

[Julia36]

I think Nick's estimates are too low because we need the environment to accurately compute each person's memories, but that factoring probably wont be much longer on IT's acceleration.

There are massive implications for philosophy in resurrection.

More organised version of this thread with references:


QuantumArchaeology - Google Sites

https://sites.google...tumarchaeology/

[Julia36]

One helpful technology is brain-computer instant commands.

Here what you can think can be created as real objects in the world.


This is using 3D printing (article):
http://www.3dprinter...with-your-brain

between the brain and the real world which is ABSOLUTELY via data.

Once you see human beings as data, history as data and computers as data manipulators, it isn't hard to see we shod be able to raise the dead as nano-assemblers wizz past 3D printing competence and assemble molecules and then atoms on command.

The cost of these will be almost NIL as once one is built they can assembly-print themselves.