22 replies to this topic

[JohnnyP]

Hey everybody I have come to see that logically some racetams i.e. aniracetam etc. are fat soluble so they are taken with fish oil, oil or any fat source. My question is if one were to try and take it without fat would it not be absorbed (at least fully) and would be a waste? Or would it just take longer assuming normal enzymatic function is occuring while on an empty stomach? Thanks for any feedback.

[pushpull]

If your stomach is completely empty, like when you wake up, very little (if any) will be absorbed.

Unless you are on some extreme diet I don't see a problem with this though. Eat a handful of nuts (which is good for you anyway) a little bit before taking fat soluble racetams or something.

[JohnnyP]

Well I was just wondering because I usually IF until the afternoon I do take fish oil caps in the morning however it's very early when I wake up and was trying to see if it were posible to take a fat soluble racetam as the effects tend to last longer but from what I have read around 3-4 hours at best. Thanks for the reply.

[pushpull]

How long the effects last on fat soluble racetams vary a bit. Unless I'm mistaken Noopept is the fat soluble racetam that has the longest effect.

Regardless the idea is that the racetam needs some fat source to "stick to" for it to be absorbed, so the fat source needs to be taken around the same time as the racetam, maybe preferably a bit in advance if you i.e. take fish oil caps.

[JohnnyP]

Thanks for the reply but I believe Noopept is not fat soluble or water soluble. Based on wikipedia its partially soluble in water but most of the time its is advised to take it sublingually and I haven't read anything about it being ideal to take it with fat.

[#1stunna]

Human cells are coated with a phospholipid bilayer. Phospholipid = fat. This is why fat soluble drugs are absorbed FASTER, remain in the system longer, and why fat soluble vitamins like vitamin d can be toxic, whereas you can easily excrete excess b vitamins in the urine.

No fat intake needed to absorb fat soluble meds. source = any pharmacology class

[JohnnyP]

Well that's nice to hear lol thank you very much for that information.

[pushpull]

@1stunna: If this is all BS, how come pretty much every forum post and informational website on fat soluble racetams suggest adding a fat source along with the racetam ?

[#1stunna]

I wouldn't treat everything you read online as fact. If someone here has a background in pharmacology and a rationale on why you must consume fat with it I would love to hear it considering my explanation above.

[pushpull]

I absolutely agree, everything online is not a fact. And it's not my intention to argue with you here, I just find it weird that pretty much every post on fat soluble racetams states you need to consume fat along with it to ensure it's aborbed. Same with most informational websites on racetams.

[#1stunna]

It is weird but its also the interwebz. I wonder how much of it is just the same bad info being regurgitated. Most of all I wonder what the credentials are of the authors on these info websites stating you need dietary fat to absorb fat soluble meds.

I will message noopmed and see if he would be kind enough to post on the subject.

[NoopMed]

#1Stunner is right, but theres a bit more to it. Fat solubility generally confers better membrane solubility, however this doesnt have a huge effect on how much is actually absorbed from your digestive tract, as so many factors are involved.... Most notably the specific transporters and enzymes that are able to intereact with the drug and take it into the blood stream. This is why most drugs are tested for "bioavailability." A 100%bioavailablility means that all of the drug that is consumed is accounted for the in the blood stream after the blood has taken on the material from the GI tract and passed through the liver (see first pass metabolism). For the racetams, there is variable metabolism. Piracetam is supposedly taken care of by the kidney alone and has almost 100% bioavailability which is very rare for any oral drug-- the liver doesnt touch it. However, it doesnt cross the blood brain barrier and effect your neurons as easily because its not especially fat soluble. Conversely, Aniracetam is very fat soluble, but is extensively metabolized on first pass by the liver, so its bioavailably (what actually reaches the blood) is very low. Around 0.2%.

For fat solubility the most important thing here for drugs is increased blood brain barrier solubility and fat storage of the drugs. In theory, a more fat soluable drug enters the brain more easily and may be stored in body fat tissues elsewhere for longer periods of time... Slowly releasing back into the blood and extending their duration of action. For Aniracetam, this is the racetam with the highest fat solubility. So it should enter the brain the most quickly and in the highest quantity. Paradoxically, it actually has the lowest half life of the racetams, so what little drug that actually makes it to the brain is eliminated more quickly than any other racetam.. This probably has to do with liver metabolism.

Bottom line. Eating fat along with aniracetam probably wont do much at all. Excess fat in the diet might even absorb it and cause more to pass out with the feces more quickly. (Excess fish oil can lead to steatorrhea... Fatty poops, with fish oill in them because the body just cant absorb it all.) Aniracetam is harder than most to get into the blood, but once its there, it most easily enters the brain. Unfortunately it doesnt last long in the body. The result is a need for more frequent dosing. When i tried it, 750mg every 2 hours was beneficial, but the utility of taken so many pills was cumbersome and expensive, leading me back to good ol Piracetam alone.

[Justin Garrett Hill]

So nice to have Noopmed on these boards. I really wish that I had access to the full articles that so many of us are making our supplementing decisions on! Many of the abstracts mention the racetams in general as having really good absorption rates from the gut into the bloodstream. Although I wish that they would include more information about what exactly "oral" administration consists of. IE with water, with food, etc. Some info I find relative to this thread:
Here is a snippit from the current wikipedia on the pharmacology of water soluble oxiracetam:
Oxiracetam is well absorbed from the gastrointestinal tract with a bioavailability of 68-82% according to one source (E. Perucca et al) and 56% according to another^[2]. Peak serum levels are reached within one to three hours after a single 800 mg or 2000 mg oral dose, with the maximal serum concentration reaching between 19-31 µg/ml at these doses. Oxiracetam is mainly cleared renally and thus 84% is excreted unchanged in the urine. The half-life of oxiracetam in healthy individuals is about 8 hours, whereas it is 10-68 hours in patients with renal impairment. There is some penetration of the blood–brain barrier with brain concentrations reaching 5.3% of that in the blood (measured one hour after a single 2000 mg intravenous dose)^[2]. Clearance rates range from 9 to 95 ml/min and steady-state concentrations when 800 mg is given twice daily range from 60 µM to 530 µM. The highest concentrations of oxiracetam is found in the septum pellucidum, followed by the hippocampus, the cerebral cortex and with the lowest concentrations in the striatum after a 200 mg/kg oral dose given to rats.<sup>[2]

Here is a little video about fat soluable vitamin absorption:</sup> http://nutrition.jbpub.com/resources/animations.cfm?id=25&debug=0
From what I gleam, it seems like bile is necessary to absorb fat soluable vitamins so anything that increases bile production when the supplement is in the small intestine should increase absorption.

[#1stunna]

amazing post noopmed thank you sir, very interesting

[JohnnyP]

Thank you everybody for all the helpful information! I didn't think that the explanation of this would be discussed in such great detail I feel so much more well informed now.

[Peak Noots]

Are we perhaps reading into this "fat soluble" "water soluble" a little too much. Yes, solubility can relate to absorption in the digestive system but did anyone consider the fact that people are may just speaking about the solubility of the powdered form of the drug. Eg. Aniracetam won't mix with water but will with milk. I think this whole solubility thing needs to be cleared up and thanks noopmed for that very well researched information

[JohnnyP]

I was actually curious about the quality/legitimacy of the peak nootropics website, what a coincidence lol.

[Peak Noots]

I was actually curious about the quality/legitimacy of the peak nootropics website, what a coincidence lol.

Hi Johnny, yes we are legit. Working to improve the site and work on the brand.

Anyway, I spent some time doing some research on this whole topic because it was a little confusing to me. Noopmed is right. Most drugs are fat soluble yet you don't have to take with a fat source. It is more important to take fat soluble drugs with food. To improve the performance of fat soluble drugs like Aniracetam it is best to have food in the digestive system BEFOREhand. Whether you take a fat source with the food does not seem to change anything which would coincide with the above mentioned argument.

From my research, water soluble racetams need not to be taken with food and perhaps preform better when taken on an empty stomach. I am working on a post discussing the solubility of racetams on my bloghttp://peaknootropics.com/blog

[JohnnyP]

Thanks for the replies and the reassurance, do you have any opinions on how to best dose Noopept in regards to with or without food?

[Peak Noots]

Noopept is a dipeptide which unlike regular peptides, can be absorbed within the intestines which explains its intended oral administration. Contrary to popular belief, sub-lingual administration will not influence the effects of noopept because it remains almost entirely unchanged during first pass to the liver. Noopept still seems to be prone to enzymatic breakdown however it seems to be fairly resistant. Once absorbed, Noopept has an extremely high bio availability which means it can get to the brain very easily.

I was doing some research on how to increase the absorption of Noopept. There seem to be some products that claim help with absorption of nutrients like amino acids, vitamins and di-tri peptides however I can not vouch for their efficiency.

For all of those wondering, Noopept should be taken with food or after a meal. I highly recommend to take noopept after a meal if you are taking a quick release format such as powder form noopept

[#1stunna]

Are we perhaps reading into this "fat soluble" "water soluble" a little too much. Yes, solubility can relate to absorption in the digestive system but did anyone consider the fact that people are may just speaking about the solubility of the powdered form of the drug. Eg. Aniracetam won't mix with water but will with milk. I think this whole solubility thing needs to be cleared up and thanks noopmed for that very well researched information

ani dissolves in both milk and water for me.....we are addressing absorption from the gut and all the posts stating you need to consume fat with a fat soluble med....which is clearly false. If correcting an overblown myth is reading into it too much then so be it.

[Peak Noots]

#1 stunna if you actually read my posts you would see that I agree with you. A fat soluble racetam will dissolve in fats but it does not need to be taken wi.th a fat source to work or absorb. People may say you need to mix with a fat source for the powder to dissolve and this may confuse people. Most drugs are fat soluble and they do not need to be taken with a fat source however if you broke these same drugs out of their capsules you would observe they would simply float on top of the water.

With this said, fat soluble drugs almost always need a food source to work to the intended levels. Anyway, was not disagreeing with you, just stating the possible reason this myth has been created. A simple misinterpretation

[nuc]

Noopept is a dipeptide which unlike regular peptides, can be absorbed within the intestines which explains its intended oral administration. Contrary to popular belief, sub-lingual administration will not influence the effects of noopept because it remains almost entirely unchanged during first pass to the liver. Noopept still seems to be prone to enzymatic breakdown however it seems to be fairly resistant. Once absorbed, Noopept has an extremely high bio availability which means it can get to the brain very easily.

I was doing some research on how to increase the absorption of Noopept. There seem to be some products that claim help with absorption of nutrients like amino acids, vitamins and di-tri peptides however I can not vouch for their efficiency.

For all of those wondering, Noopept should be taken with food or after a meal. I highly recommend to take noopept after a meal if you are taking a quick release format such as powder form noopept

I am curious if you could comment on whether you thought that it would be a good idea to suspend most nootropics that have poor or wish to increase absorption in DMSO for oral consumption, as i have been reading that it works really well with certain substances.