9 replies to this topic

[narakhan]

Hey, first up I'm sorry if I am posting this in the wrong section of the forums.

Now onto my problem, I recently picked up 50g of both Oxiracetam and Pramiracetam from the eBay retailer nhsaustralia. I heard about nootropics a few weeks ago and decided to try out some racetams. I know everyone says to start with piracetam but it is a schedule four drug in Australia, which means I am unable to purchase it without a prescription.

While I cannot be sure about the purity of the racetams (They are supposedly 99.1-99.52% pure, but they were made in china according to the packaging) I am fairly sure that they are the correct substances. This is because they have the described characteristics of being fat/water soluble and foul/sweet tasting as well as being white powders with oxiracetam being finer than pramiracetam, I have not tested melting point.

However it seems that both have no effect on me what so ever. I have not noticed any increase in motivation/focus or memory recall and I do not notice any visual/audial enhancements or alterations. I also have not experienced the headaches that are said to occur when racetams are taken without a choline source (Even at high dosages), for reference I do not consume much choline normally in my diet and I have not been consuming any with the racetams.

I have now been taking them for a period of around a week and a half. I started at the recommended dosages (Around 100-300mg for pramiracetam and 800-1600mg for oxiracetam) and have been steadily increasing the quantity I've been taking. Today I swallowed a tablespoon of pramiracetam and felt no effect at all.

I have tried taking the racetams before food and after food as well as without food at all. I have chased down the pramiracetam with full cream milk and even tried (At the suggestion of someone on this forum) dissolving pramiracetam in olive oil and consuming (It was far worse than just pramiracetam on it's own).

I have tried to examine all possible areas I can address before asking for help, but I am clueless as to what could be the problem as it is my first time dealing with nootropics. I realise people have suggested that the effects are cumulative and may take around two weeks to show themselves but it has been close to two weeks and I have not experienced anything from either racetam. While not the most objective measurement of memory I have been learning the Japanese written language through Anki (A flashcard program based on spaced repetition) and there has been no noticeable change in my ability to learn since taking racetams.

I have also been trying to get my full 8-10 hours of sleep a night and have been eating properly. I have not been exercising in the traditional sense but I am currently working functions for a local club, so I have been lifting heavy objects in the Australian summer heat. I have also been taking multi-vitamins and fish oil. I am 18 years of age and male, if it helps any.

If anyone could give their opinion on the matter I would be very thankful. I have tried to supply enough information to aid in this matter, if I am leaving anything out please ask.

On a side note I am sorry if this post is hard to read, I just got home from a 9 hour shift and it is currently 2am.

Edited by narakhan, 23 December 2012 - 03:09 PM.

[67limitless13]

Nootropics I'm afraid may be hit or miss for some, eg. Pramiracetam, one dosage (800mg) and I can't read (For me, Pramiracetam makes me read much slower) while having an improved memory.

Piracetam however no matter the dosage or how long, will not effect me.

Are you supplementing choline ? keep taking them whether you see not active effect or not until you've finished the bag or tub. I suggest you look into other nootropics

[narakhan]

Nootropics I'm afraid may be hit or miss for some, eg. Pramiracetam, one dosage (800mg) and I can't read (For me, Pramiracetam makes me read much slower) while having an improved memory.

Piracetam however no matter the dosage or how long, will not effect me.

Are you supplementing choline ? keep taking them whether you see not active effect or not until you've finished the bag or tub. I suggest you look into other nootropics

If I were getting negative effects then at least I would know that oxiracetam/pramiracetam aren’t for me. However I literally get no effect from any dosage of either one. It seems highly unlikely that I should feel no effects for two separate forms of the racetam family.

I intended to keep taking them until I was finished anyway but thankyou for the advice.

I am not taking choline with the racetams as my choline source has not arrived. I have read elsewhere that taking choline isn't necessary and that it's main use is to prevent racetam induced headaches.

Edited by narakhan, 24 December 2012 - 03:17 AM.

[seidai]

Hello,

I've been a lurker on this forum for a few months and decided to sign up and post when i saw that you have ordered your nootropics from nhsaustralia.

I started out with cerebral health's piracetam with no avail, then i started nhs' aniracetam for two weeks which I had little or no results. I've also tried their ani, oxi and prami all with choline (alpha gpc)

I'm still taking them(with hope) even though i have not seen the prominent effects described in many forums. After three to four weeks of taking various dosages and by keeping a log, I did realise that there were some anecdotal instances where i saw the effects (I always thought of them as placebo as they were not so profound). I blame this partly on my lack of ability to self-assess. I wanted to calibrate my dosage during this holiday before my final year at uni. I've tried most dosages ranging from micro to attack doses. (The doses more than 2-3 g gave me tiredness and i took naps everytime i had an attack dose.)

anywho, recently, I tried piracetam with ALCAR(250 mg - 750 mg). This stack made me realise that the piracetam in fact works (whether if it is beneficial or not) as I got a severe headache and narrow vision when taken with ALCAR. And when i took extra alpha gpc to alleviate my headaches, it kind of started to work! I didn't have an amazing music appreciation or super creative boost (I work in a design field) but I did see a colour saturation where everything appeared very colourful, so much so that I thought my usual dim working-monitor were extremely bright.

So I do think there is a way to make this work if we were able to find the balance of correct dosage for ourselves.

Other nootropics you may want to try from nhs is picamilion. I haven't tried phenibut but i have picamilon from them and it actually have more noticeable effect than the racetams, but I have a brain fog the next day (which is dissapointing but it might work for you).

p.s. Modafinil definitely works but it needs to be used carefully. Once, I was on modafinil during uni for about three weeks, I usually had 3-4 hours sleep a day and felt fine, some days with no sleep for 2 days max. But I knew something was wrong with me as there was no way I could stay up this much without killing my brain cells. So i stopped taking them continuously and cycled it every now and then.

anyway, sorry if i went too much on a side-track.

[Nickthedevil]

good to see that there are some other Australians on here I'm from WA and I buy my pramiracetam from nhaustralia on ebay as well.

Nootropics are like many other supplements, some people don't notice profound effects immediately and for some people with a high functioning choline/ ampa receptor system may not feel the effects very dramatically.

Given you work in a club, which I assume would be a football, bowls or RSL in the country, presumably managed by someone called bazza or shazza. You more than likely smoke, if you do you will have done some damage to the alpha-nicotonic acetyl choline receptors.

Thats not to say that you will experience no effects ever, in fact you are more than likely getting a subtle effect that is occuring gradually.

there are a staggering number of possible reasons, without a HPLCCMS you wouldn't want to go assuming you have bought dud racetams.

Are you taking the OXI and Prami at the same time?

[narakhan]

good to see that there are some other Australians on here I'm from WA and I buy my pramiracetam from nhaustralia on ebay as well.

Nootropics are like many other supplements, some people don't notice profound effects immediately and for some people with a high functioning choline/ ampa receptor system may not feel the effects very dramatically.

Given you work in a club, which I assume would be a football, bowls or RSL in the country, presumably managed by someone called bazza or shazza. You more than likely smoke, if you do you will have done some damage to the alpha-nicotonic acetyl choline receptors.

Thats not to say that you will experience no effects ever, in fact you are more than likely getting a subtle effect that is occuring gradually.

there are a staggering number of possible reasons, without a HPLCCMS you wouldn't want to go assuming you have bought dud racetams.

Are you taking the OXI and Prami at the same time?

Me live in the country? No way! I live in that capital that everyone pretends doesn't exist. Additionally I do not smoke, or drink ... except for that one time when my sisters took me out to the local gay nightclub, had a blast but I think I'm getting off topic here.

I can't rule out the possibility that I may just not feel the effects of racetams. But I find it hard to believe that even when I consume extremely high doses of them, I don't even get a slight headache/other effects.

I have tried both oxi and prami separately for 3 days and together for the rest. I did not feel any effects. I did however feel on my first dosage that something was happening (Enhanced aspects normally associated with both racetams) but I have felt nothing since, this could be contributed to placebo. Since starting this thread I have stumbled on someone else’s account on this forum where they felt the effects of piracetam for three days and then nothing. The author found it was linked to his intake of choline and suspected that he had a choline deficiency. I will order some choline online (Probably from the same retailer as before given how you obviously feel the effects of your pramiracetam) and take it for a period of time (3 days) and then start taking racetams again.

Don't misunderstand me though I don't want the racetams to be duds I like the convenience of having an in-Australia retailer of nootropics. However seeing no effects regardless of dosage does seem to suggest that the powders I bought are duds. If after my test I find that I am affected by the racetams I will continue to order from them, if not I will order a small amount from a more reviewed retailer and compare. If I get back two null results then I know I am the problem, else the problem is the drugs I bought.

Thank you very much for the reply. I'm sorry if I'm coming across as a twit I am just trying to be sure. The concept of being able to improve my brains ability to function, is too important to overlook any possible variables.

[Nickthedevil]

it is lordable to seek help when you need it if only more Australians were so inclined.

It is very puzzling that your not feeling any effects, I'm enjoying the effect of my Prami right now.

It's interesting that you live in Canberra and you work in a club, I have a few suggestions, which you could use in an attempt to troubleshoor your issue, or you could go in another direction and come back to racetams.

My suggestions:

start taking ALCAR to see if your problem relates to Ach, it might be that you have been long term choline deficient and you just didn't know.

Start taking Lecethin, it is a great cheap source of PC and it has some other positive PL in it.

In terms of experimental methodology, I suggest keeping everything the same and noting down your diet, activity and observations, then add the ALCAR for about 5 days (at the recommended 1000mg) make the same observations, start taking the lecethin and the ALCAR together and if symptoms persist, come back and tell us all what happened.

For bonus points go and do some research, I'm hunting around for an assay laboratory to do a HPLC MS workup of nhaustralias stuff in weeks to come, I will have an assay done.

[narakhan]

it is lordable to seek help when you need it if only more Australians were so inclined.

It is very puzzling that your not feeling any effects, I'm enjoying the effect of my Prami right now.

It's interesting that you live in Canberra and you work in a club, I have a few suggestions, which you could use in an attempt to troubleshoor your issue, or you could go in another direction and come back to racetams.

My suggestions:

start taking ALCAR to see if your problem relates to Ach, it might be that you have been long term choline deficient and you just didn't know.

Start taking Lecethin, it is a great cheap source of PC and it has some other positive PL in it.

In terms of experimental methodology, I suggest keeping everything the same and noting down your diet, activity and observations, then add the ALCAR for about 5 days (at the recommended 1000mg) make the same observations, start taking the lecethin and the ALCAR together and if symptoms persist, come back and tell us all what happened.

For bonus points go and do some research, I'm hunting around for an assay laboratory to do a HPLC MS workup of nhaustralias stuff in weeks to come, I will have an assay done.

Truth be told I'm always hesitant to post anything, I prefer hiding away from the big scary people who dwell in the forums.

My intended choline source was either gpc or cdp. So I will probably get one of those over Lecithin.

Do you have any suggestions for where to purchase ALCAR? I've looked into it's effects but not much onto where to get it in Australia.

I will try to keep as many variables out of my test as possible but as I'm sure you know, sometimes it's impossible to keep a constant diet.

I would be very interested in the results of your tests. It would be nice to have some confirmation that the purity is what they specify. What range of substances would you be testing from the retailer?

[Nickthedevil]

eventually I'll test everything, the rate at which i'll do it depends on the cost. Mr. Supplements sells ALCAR on ebay, I use that it does the job.

I use CDP and lecethin. I recommend all three, GPC goes well with prami as far as I've read, obviously I chose the other water soluble choline source for a reason, we all have our reasons it seems.

Hope your tests go well, don't be afraid of the big scary people, most of the people who get on here and try to make people feel small will have to contend with people who are very interested in their intellect and wont really care thus they get bored and go away. it's a pretty friendly bunch really.

[jroseland]

Renowned as a tool for preventing cognitive decline, promoting memory and an enhanced powers of logic that would make a Vulcan jealous.

 

Similar to Aniracetam, Oxiracetam, is an Ampakine that modulates the AMPA Receptor and promotes long term potentiation (LTP) according to a paper published in the British Journal of Pharmacology. Long term potentiation, is the foundation of memory, it's the process of signal enhancement on a microscopic level between neurons. We rely on it for personal development, learning new skill sets, and much more. It increases the nuerotransmitters endogenous glutamate and D-Aspartic Acid which enable better signaling between hippocampal brain cells, according to an Italian study. To quote another Italian study:

"Taken collectively, these results support the view that nootropic drugs act as positive modulators of AMPA-sensitive glutamate receptors in neurons."

 

The racetam is reported anecdotally all of the Internet to aid logic, mathematic or spatial intelligence intensive tasks. To quote an insightful review of the smart drug:

"Sometimes ideas and concepts will come to mind seemingly void of emotion, meaning it is (apparently) easier to get to the point of the matter. This is a difficult concept to articulate. I can see a potential advantage in those cases in where emotional bias might otherwise cloud one's logical reasoning process."

 

Oxiracetam is chemistry's gift to those suffering from cognitive decline, specifically dementia. Dementia is a saddening age-related condition, it's most noted for it's crippling impact on day to day quality of life along with robbing those afflicted of their memories. Both forming new memories (like remembering meetings) and recalling long term memories of life experiences. The good news is that it's preventable and treatable. Improvements in the following dimensions result from Oxiracetam:

Memory formation

Long term recall

Verbal fluency and skills

Psychosocial function

A double blind Italian study of 272 people suffering from Dementia conducted by the University of Torino showed that those taking Oxiracetam had significant improvements in their cognitive decline as measured by the Newcastle Memory, Information and Concentration Scale. To  quote the study: 

"A multicentre, double-blind, between-patient study was carried out to evaluate the efficacy and tolerability of oxiracetam... A significantly different effect in favor of oxiracetam was observed on the quality of life scale, and confirmed by significant differences in some neuropsychological tests"

 

Participants of a Danish study scored higher on tests for attention, logic, spatial orientation and concentration. The study was on those with varying moderate degrees of dementia or ADHD at dosages of 800 - 2400 Milligrams daily. Oxiracetam is demonstrated as more effective than Piracetam according to V. Gallai et al.

 

Increases spacial learning and hippocampally-mediated learning by improving a protein related processes in brain membranes. This is part of Oxiracetam's purported mechanism of action, according to a study by the Institute for Behavioural Genetics at the University of Colorado:

"...performance was also improved in contextual learning as determined by the fear conditioning task. The increase in spatial learning performance was correlated to an increase in membrane-bound PKC."

 

Also a GABA analogue, GABA is an important neurotransmitter to the function of the central nervous system, it regulates excitability in our nervous systems. Which has positive implications for Nuerodegenerative disorders according to a 2010 Polish study, to quote the study:

"To resolve this problem, GABA analogues are being designed. Over recent years, there has been increasing interest in the synthesis and pharmacological effect of new GABA derivatives, which can be considered as potent drugs in the treatment of neurodegenerative disorders."

 

Oxiracetam has a positive effect on acetylcholine signaling but does not increase the baseline of acetylcholine. Acetylcholine or ACH, is a chief nuerotransmitter of the mind and body, it's a communicator between our muscles and brains. It is used by the central nervous system (CNS), autonomic nervous system (ANS), peripheral nervous system (PNS), and the sole neurotransmitter used in the somatic nervous system's motor division. According to a study published in Clinical Neuropharmacology, the presence of Oxiracetam increases the utilization of acetylcholine by up to 31%.

 

Based upon EEG readings done by a University of Paris, Oxiracetam does not hurt the quality of sleep but it does cause sleep latency. So it may take you longer to fall asleep if you take the smart drug later in the day. No effects of lucid dreaming are reported in scientific sources.

Anecdotally, it enhances the experience of music... To quote a Longecity review:
"I must agree that Oxiracetam enhances sound like nothing else. Those waves can almost be tasted on the tongue, inside the brain... more real than real..."

 

Good news, it doesn't taste as bad as the other Racetams, it's reported frequently as being somewhat sweet.

 

Like other Racetams, it is creating synthetically in a lab. It differs chemically from Piracetam because of a single hydroxyl.

 

Although you can find +90 studies and scientific papers specifically on Oxiracetam on Pubmed, it is sometimes criticized as a smart drug for having a shortage of human studies. 

 

Cofactors: Since it promotes Acetylcholine but is not a building block of the important neurotransmitter, it's great idea to take with an Acetylcholine precursor like Alpha GPC or a Choline supplement.

 

Recommended Daily: 800 Milligrams

 

Side Effects: Like the other Racatams Oxiracetam is a high return, very low risk tool for a Limitless Mind. The common complaint with Racatams is the headache if you do to much, There are some anecdotal reports of irritation while dosed on it, the theory on this is that it is because the greater clarity makes one more aware of negative emotions.