15 replies to this topic

[Anewlife]

I was watching a documentary on sociopathy: I am fishead.
It mentioned SSRIs block empathy, having been on amphetamines I can understand this, I believe it to be an effect of the chemical labotomy that SSRIs and other drugs seem to produce.

I cant find anything on it except anecdotal information. Although I believe it as fact I am wondering if anyone has researched this.

I know Marijuana doesnt block empathy but I am curious about nicotine.

[nupi]

I call BS. If anything, SSRIs make me more emphatic. I however would not classify myself as sociopath as much as simply not caring much about the rest of the world...

[Bemiller16]

Trust me, 2210 is way above average.

SSRIs are serotonin agonists, amphetamines are dopamine agonists... i don't see how you made that connection.

Edited by Bemiller16, 27 December 2012 - 01:35 AM.

[nupi]

Yeah and come to think of it, many empathogens are intensely serotonergic....

[Valor5]

I think the lack of dopamine and too much of the fight of flight neurotransmitters is what leads to this. Its like someone with no money who has to resort to murder and stealing to survive because he lost all his money (dopamine). The adrenergics are produced in the kidneys. So perhaps if you run out of dopamine in the brain then these take over. From personal experience methylphenidate makes me irritable.

[Bemiller16]

Oh i don't know why it took a quote from a different post, oh well, but yeah it is interesting that drugs like mdma increase empathy, I could see why an SSRI would also increase empathy if they were working on similar systems.

[Thorsten3]

The acute effects (adaption period) of SSRIs will produce feelings of empathy through oxytocin release (5HT1A agonism and 5HT2A agonism are two receptors I can think of that cause release, and possibly more receptors). The effect probably won't be anything dramatic though, unless you are extremely miserable and depressed to begin with. Unfortunately, these initial effects aren't sustainable, as the receptors downregulate (usually over a period of weeks), and your then left with just a pool of serotonin, which antagonizes dopaminergic tone (usually resulting in increased symptons of anhedonia). Whether you still feel empathetic after the adaption phase could depend on the person taking it, the SSRI they're on, what else they're taking or any other number of factors. I personally, felt that life was pointless as I hit the theraputic stage. The fact I couldn't feel emotion anymore was of real concern. I was on Lexapro though, which is a pretty dull SSRI. But I do remember thinking 'How are you supposed to connect with people, improving the symptons of your depressive mind state, if you can't even connect with people?'.

Potent serotonin releasers will provide a lot of empathy, again, through the 5HT receptors, but I'd be very wary of tolerance issues. Downregulation of the serotonergic system doesn't feel fun at all. I'm not aware of any long term studies involving compounds like MDAI, and wouldn't touch them, for that very reason. I've experienced brutal withdrawal from SSRIs so god knows what withdrawal from 5HT releasers might be like. They are extremely robust anti-depressants.

I think I remember thinking that the D2 receptors release oxytocin, so it could be reasoned that perhaps some of the more shitty anti-psychotics might be used to turn your brain into a vegetable, and lower empathy.

[nupi]

Lexapro is thought to be the most pure SSRI there is - it is very good at what it does but did not work for me, it was even more fatiguing and I would sleep all day on it. However, I am not sure that the empathy fully vanishes, after almost 4 months on Lexapro, Cymbalta (SNRI) and now Prozac (which I maintain is not a true SSRI), I still feel like I have more empathy than before. But then again, I was always very low on it and connecting with people only very rarely to start with...

[Raptor87]

As I remember it, the correlation was that we are drugged in order to work in a callous environment.

But if they truly meaned that Ssri´s block empathy, then there is data suggesting that these drugs lower the activity in the amygdala. So there's your explanation.

[Valor5]

I think that empathy may be a frontal lobe function. For me two things given me empathy more than I had before. Kind of a moral tune up in a sense. Where there are a couple of things. Guanfacine can do it. This is a a2 receptor agonist and activates the 5ht2b receptor similar to the amphetamines and their derivaties. Another thing that I think can help or does the same thing is Yohimbe but when taken with American Ginseng seems to have the same effect for me as Guanfacine and this releases oxytocin. So I think it has to do with 5ht2b and probably other neuromodulators like phenethylamine. Another that promotes this moral tune of or empathy is Mirtazapine, which is a unique molecule hitting many different receptors. So for lack of empathy I would guess it to be the oppossite actions of these drugs/herbs and/or the lack of proper action at the receptors.

[Valor5]

In retrospect guanfacine is not that great or mirtazapine. There is something to it kind of like DMT althought I have never tried DMT but I've had peculiar spiritual experiences with these things. Stick with the natural stuff as long as it is not poisonos, IMO.

[Thorsten3]

Yeah, I was going to say that people's opinions of Mirtazapine seems to be that it is pretty emotionally dulling. There are a few receptor mechanisms that I think could be responsible.

I don't really know enough about Guanfacine, other than it's good for ADD in some individuals.

I have read before about people who get closed eye visuals from start up Mirtazapine treatment, I wonder if it is 5HT2B related?

I don't understand what you mean about the 5HT2B receptor, though? AFAIK, very little is known about the receptor. Even if agonizing 5HT2B was a good thing for empathy, it's a bad thing for your health if you are an individual who is prone to cardiac issues. I think people generally avoid 5HT2B agonists for this reason.

Wow, you take American Ginseng with Yohimbe? Yohimbe will be even more probelmatic than Yohimbine in terms of side effects. Is American Ginseng quite mellow? Panax Ginseng gives me a raised heart rate (it's literally thumping through my chest). Yohimbine does the same thing (to a lesser degree, at 2.5mg), albeit with heart palpitations thrown into the mix. I would be scared to mix Panax with Yohimbine, in all honesty. SJW mixed with Maca (taken chronically) was another 'heart disaster', and something I don't care to repeat.

I think I remember reading that American Ginseng was a more mellow version of Panax, I wonder if it comes with the same benefits (minus the anxiety)?

There are things very unique to Panax though, which give it its antidepressant effects. There is a study I can dig up showing it fuses with 5HT2A agonists (5HT2A antagonists block the effects). I also have a paper showing it to have indirect NMDA potentiating effects, and GABA-A effects (this doesn't surpise me as, although it is very stimulating, it has a paradoxical calming effect which is always present in the background, probably why it's not something that is generally hard to sleep on unless you take it too late in the day). 5HT2A agonism will release glutamate, DA and oxytocin.

Anecdotally, I can confirm that my brain feels alive on Panax. My memory is much better (especially working memory), concentration/focus improve, my mood improves drastically (it does feel serotonergic, but in a raw stimulating way), my libido improves (it improves adrenal function, like most adaptogens), i do indeed become more empathetic (my emotions come back stronger, but not in a soppy way) and erectile function is enhanced (it improves blood flow considerably around the body).

The only one major downside to it is it is way too stimulating at times, to the point of being anxiogenic (but I've only noticed this in panic type situations). Panax, for me, is the cure, but I need to find a functioning GABAergic agent to use alongside it to tame this side effect. Or, just not take it when I know I am going to be in a potential situation of panic (for me, this is mostly based around talking in front of groups of people).

Edited by Thorsten2, 30 December 2012 - 12:07 PM.

[Valor5]

I take the "Prince of Peace" brand of American Ginseng with Royal Jelly and Bee pollen which comes in sip bottles. I had a hard time taming the Yohimbe monster at first but this thing effectively does it. I use Yohimbe for its oxytocin promoting effects. Its nice to use around your special one. Yohimbe will give you palpitations and nausea if you do not treat it right. I chose the American ginseng because my friend told me they over-harvested the other Asian ginseng's and that the American is actually better. I don't really know. Since this has worked for me I am sticking with it. It tames the fire of Yohimbe.

Some drugs empathogens and I presume others like them will give spiritual experiences. My definition of this is that you start to appreciate the bible more and its teachings, seriously. Its an interesting phenomenon I have experienced, on Vyvanse (d-amphetamine), methylphenidate, guanfacine, and mirtazapine. These substances hit the moral parts of the brain which I presume to be the frontal lobe. For example, I was hearing a sermon on Vyvanse once about Judas and how he betrayed Jesus and it was really, really moving. I had tears in my eyes. Another experience was with Mirtazapine where the moral lesson took on even more significance and urgency, food for thought. I often do experiments with myself likes these. For example I will take a substance and see if it will improve my musicality and certain compounds definitely have this effect. I am not saying it will make you into Mozart. It just makes certain qualities more interesting, for example like the speed of a trill will improve on certain things that affect acetylcholine function etc.

By these statements I am not advocating or promoting the use of these substances. The truth is taking these things is risky and can be filled with bad consequences. I think a healthy lifestyle is the best thing you can do for yourself since the complexity and risk can be great when trusting others to bring you substances that may be adulterated or that you do not know much about etc.

Edited by valory5, 30 December 2012 - 04:34 PM.

[nupi]

Thorsten2: That sounds rather interesting - any thoughts on stacking Ginseng (either Panax or American) on top of SSRIs (specifically Fluoxetine)? I am not really worried about the cardiac issues as my tests come back in the spot on range every single time (my GP even joked that I'd die of cancer much before my heart would ever stop albeit with a slightly elevated bp...

[panhedonic]

Bump: anybody else has stacked yohimbe/yohimbine with ginseng? I'm looking for a way to "tame the yohimbe monster" since It's amazing for libido and increasing sexual experience overall.  Any other GABA-ergic or relaxant that would stack well with the great Y?

[insearchfor]

Antipsychotics blunt your emotions and you cannot really be very empatic on those pills. Try some heavy APs and you'll see.