166 replies to this topic

[Hebbeh]

Since GVA speculates that EVOO works and corn oil does not because of the presence or absence of chlorophyll, I'm making up a batch with extra chlorophyll to see if I can tell any difference. Before filtering, this batch contains 0.7 mg/ml C60 in EVOO and 1 mg/ml freeze-dried blue-green algae, with the algae and C60 ground together in a stainless steel mortar.

If I understood correctly, it was supposed to be the water content of the natural chlorophyll in the EVOO that was allowing the formation of HyFn. Freeze-dried chlorophyll would have the water content removed and not contribute to any potential HyFn. A better experiment would be to add C60 to a corn oil and water emulsion.

There's a little water in oils and there's a little water in freeze dried products. If it's the chlorophyll that makes the difference, I should see something, for as he says, the amount of C60 being used in EVOO is relatively enormous compared to the hydrated C60 he's using. Of course, you are free to do your own experiments.

Maybe I mis-read it, but I thought that GVA's idea was that chlorophyll and/or polyphenols formed charge-transfer complexes with c60, and that these complexes became hydrated only after consuming them, the chlorophyll or polyphenol being displaced by water in the body. If this happens at all, in my opinion it would only be a very minor side reaction. It's not consistent with Cataldo's spectroscopic data that shows intense bands outside of the CT region. Cataldo does see a very small CT peak, so there must be some sort of complex formation. I think a good way to test this would be to try to make an adduct using corn oil or some other oil that's free of both polyphenols and chlorophyll. I think you'll get a red product just like with olive oil, and it will have the same biological effects. I would try it myself but I'm fresh out of c60.

Perhaps I misunderstood how the HyFn were supposedly forming, but from the article, I gathered the DA complexes were transformed into HyFn from the water content in the EVOO as corn oil doesn't contain water....per the following quotes:

Moreover, OO contains polar polyphenol compounds (Polyphenols, PPh), which, in addition to porphyrins (chlorophylls), are absent in other popular edible oil grades, including CO.
Nevertheless, different OO samples contain at least twice as much water as CO and other oils derived through extraction with organic solvents but not through the mere pressing of oil-containing raw, as is normally done when making OO.

So from the following quote, I assumed he was talking about the water content of the EVOO.....

The main point is that the polar DA complexes, particularly HPh/C
60, are stable in non-aqueous and rather hydrophobic media, such as vegetable oils. But as soon as such DA-complexes get into an aqueous medium, they start to break down there at some rate (whether this was high or low was not been studied in detail) under the influence of water molecules. In a scientific sense, this means that hydrolysis processes will take place due to the interaction of polar DA-complexes of C60 with polar water molecules. This will eventually result in the decomposition of these DA-complexes into the their separate hydrated components. These components are denoted here as "HPh/H2O" and "C60/H2O".
In general and in this particular case too, this will result in the formation of strong, highly hydrophilic hydrated C
60 fullerenes (C60HyFn = C60@{H2O}n,

[niner]

Maybe I mis-read it, but I thought that GVA's idea was that chlorophyll and/or polyphenols formed charge-transfer complexes with c60, and that these complexes became hydrated only after consuming them, the chlorophyll or polyphenol being displaced by water in the body. If this happens at all, in my opinion it would only be a very minor side reaction. It's not consistent with Cataldo's spectroscopic data that shows intense bands outside of the CT region. Cataldo does see a very small CT peak, so there must be some sort of complex formation. I think a good way to test this would be to try to make an adduct using corn oil or some other oil that's free of both polyphenols and chlorophyll. I think you'll get a red product just like with olive oil, and it will have the same biological effects. I would try it myself but I'm fresh out of c60.

Perhaps I misunderstood how the HyFn were supposedly forming, but from the article, I gathered the DA complexes were transformed into HyFn from the water content in the EVOO as corn oil doesn't contain water....per the following quotes:

Moreover, OO contains polar polyphenol compounds (Polyphenols, PPh), which, in addition to porphyrins (chlorophylls), are absent in other popular edible oil grades, including CO.
Nevertheless, different OO samples contain at least twice as much water as CO and other oils derived through extraction with organic solvents but not through the mere pressing of oil-containing raw, as is normally done when making OO.

So from the following quote, I assumed he was talking about the water content of the EVOO.....

The main point is that the polar DA complexes, particularly HPh/C
60, are stable in non-aqueous and rather hydrophobic media, such as vegetable oils. But as soon as such DA-complexes get into an aqueous medium, they start to break down there at some rate (whether this was high or low was not been studied in detail) under the influence of water molecules. In a scientific sense, this means that hydrolysis processes will take place due to the interaction of polar DA-complexes of C60 with polar water molecules. This will eventually result in the decomposition of these DA-complexes into the their separate hydrated components. These components are denoted here as "HPh/H2O" and "C60/H2O".
In general and in this particular case too, this will result in the formation of strong, highly hydrophilic hydrated C
60 fullerenes (C60HyFn = C60@{H2O}n,

I took "aqueous medium" to mean in the body, where it's really going to see a lot of water. But no matter. Either way, if you can get a functioning c60-fatty acid adduct out of corn oil (with or without water) which lacks the compounds that might form the putative DA complexes, then it at least shows that the fatty acid adducts have biological activity on their own, and that the activity of c60-oo isn't exclusively due to HyFn.

[Turnbuckle]

Since GVA speculates that EVOO works and corn oil does not because of the presence or absence of chlorophyll, I'm making up a batch with extra chlorophyll to see if I can tell any difference. Before filtering, this batch contains 0.7 mg/ml C60 in EVOO and 1 mg/ml freeze-dried blue-green algae, with the algae and C60 ground together in a stainless steel mortar.

If I understood correctly, it was supposed to be the water content of the natural chlorophyll in the EVOO that was allowing the formation of HyFn. Freeze-dried chlorophyll would have the water content removed and not contribute to any potential HyFn. A better experiment would be to add C60 to a corn oil and water emulsion.

There's a little water in oils and there's a little water in freeze dried products. If it's the chlorophyll that makes the difference, I should see something, for as he says, the amount of C60 being used in EVOO is relatively enormous compared to the hydrated C60 he's using. Of course, you are free to do your own experiments.

Maybe I mis-read it, but I thought that GVA's idea was that chlorophyll and/or polyphenols formed charge-transfer complexes with c60, and that these complexes became hydrated only after consuming them, the chlorophyll or polyphenol being displaced by water in the body.

Yeah, that's what I thought too. And if GVA had any real evidence for that he would have pursued it as it would presumably be a lot easier to make hydrated C60 that way than by brute force. Just take some regular C60/EVOO and add water, acid, and agitate..

Edited by Turnbuckle, 30 December 2012 - 09:41 PM.

[DeadMeat]

Maybe I mis-read it, but I thought that GVA's idea was that chlorophyll and/or polyphenols formed charge-transfer complexes with c60, and that these complexes became hydrated only after consuming them, the chlorophyll or polyphenol being displaced by water in the body. If this happens at all, in my opinion it would only be a very minor side reaction. It's not consistent with Cataldo's spectroscopic data that shows intense bands outside of the CT region. Cataldo does see a very small CT peak, so there must be some sort of complex formation. I think a good way to test this would be to try to make an adduct using corn oil or some other oil that's free of both polyphenols and chlorophyll. I think you'll get a red product just like with olive oil, and it will have the same biological effects. I would try it myself but I'm fresh out of c60.

But why is so much attention paid to chlorophyll? The thing is that, like phthalocyanines and porphyrins, HPh can form so-called donor-acceptor complexes (DA-complexes) with C60, which are also scientifically known as charge-transfer complexes or CT-complexes (see Cataldo’s chapter 13, page 331-332 on http://www.owndoc.co...enes-in-oil.pdf, which were posted by Turnbuckle 09/27/2012, 12:31 PM, #67 and we can see on http://www.longecity...ng/page__st__60).

GVA had a link to what probably should have been my post here. As far as I understand the charge transfer interaction with chlorophyl and stuff doesn't cause any really new peaks/reaction products but just causes a peak to shift a bit. And with all the c60 oils they tested, the C60 reacts to some extent with fatty acid esters and gets red after a while.

It appears that all of the things we would normally want to avoid with olive oil- heat, light, and oxygen are things that encourage adduct formation. I'm not sure how you would figure out how much of any of these was the "right" amount, and how much is too much, but it seems likely there is such a thing as "too much" here. I just don't know what it is.

At least at 150°C I assume its really toast, so probably no C60-oo pancakes.
From Cataldo's chapter 13 page 332.
www.owndoc.com/pdf/solubility-of-fullerenes-in-oil.pdf

The new absorption band at 435 nm in the C60 spectrum has been attributed to the 1,2 addition to the fullerene cage to the fatty acid chains either across to the double bonds by a Diels-Alder addition or, more simply, by radical addition (Cataldo and Braun, 2007). Thus, fatty acid esters are able to not only dissolve C60, but also react with this molecule causing the addition of the fatty chain to the fullerene cage. In fact, the bands at 435 nm shown in Fig. 13.3 appear only when C60 is stirred at 75°C for a couple of hours in the esters of fatty acids. Only for olive oil the new band appears much weaker than in the other cases and displaced at 450 nm (Fig. 13.3B). Since this oil contains chlorophyll, the displacement may be probably due also to a charge–transfer interaction between C60 and chlorophyll or with other impurities.

On standing in air, at room temperature the C60 fullerene solutions in vegetable oils are not stable, but change their colour from violet to reddish. The electronic absorption spectra show a gradual increase in the absorption band in the visible initially in the range between 450 and 550 nm. Similar results are obtained both by heating the solutions in air or under nitrogen. In the latter case prolonged heating is needed to achieve the same results. Heating C60 solutions in linseed or other oils for 15 minutes at 150°C (in air) causes the entire spectrum of C60 in the visible to disappear completely as shown in Fig. 13.3F.

Edited by DeadMeat, 30 December 2012 - 11:10 PM.

[Turnbuckle]

Here are the results of adding blue-green algae to C60/EVOO. Referring to the picture—

• This is California Olive Ranch EVOO, straight from the bottle.
  
• With .7 mg/ml 99.5% C60 (SES) & .1 mg/ml blue-green algae (Source Naturals), ground together and magnetically stirred for 60 hours.
  
• Filtered at .22 microns.
  
• Distilled water.
  
• One part No. 3 mixed in five parts distilled water and shaken for several minutes. Allowed to settle for 12 hours. Still slightly turbid, but no discernible color.

From the color of No. 5, there is no obvious formation of hydrated C60, though the filtered oil mix is somewhat darker than normal. The filter membrane was loaded with blue-green and there is doubtless more chlorophyll dissolved in the oil than there is naturally, and perhaps some reacted with the C60. I took one ml without any problem, and will take this in the coming weeks and see how it does.

Attached Files

•  C60-algae trial.png   399.73KB   25 downloads

[xEva]

@Turnbuckle: thanks for pics and interesting experiment. Question: are you aware that blue-green "algae" are actually photosynthesizing bacteria, often grown in sewer-enriched waters? They are not algae. They are not even eukaryotes. Considering the medium on which they are grown, why mess with them?

[Turnbuckle]

@Turnbuckle: thanks for pics and interesting experiment. Question: are you aware that blue-green "algae" are actually photosynthesizing bacteria, often grown in sewer-enriched waters? They are not algae. They are not even eukaryotes. Considering the medium on which they are grown, why mess with them?

Are you saying that because they are actually bacteria and bacteria may be found in sewer water, that these from Source Naturals are also growing on sewer water?

[xEva]

@Turnbuckle: thanks for pics and interesting experiment. Question: are you aware that blue-green "algae" are actually photosynthesizing bacteria, often grown in sewer-enriched waters? They are not algae. They are not even eukaryotes. Considering the medium on which they are grown, why mess with them?

Are you saying that because they are actually bacteria and bacteria may be found in sewer water, that these from Source Naturals are also growing on sewer water?

I don't know where Source Naturals gets their bacteria grown. I stopped following this topic long ago, when I found out that cianobacteria grow naturally in sewer-rich waters and that's how some producers were growing them (cianobacteria do require nutrients for growth and sewer is the natural source of that).

You'd have to ask Source Naturals about that. Better yet, consider getting whatever benefit cianobacteria provide from other sources. And by the way, some cianobacteria are known to cause disease in immunocompromised individuals. Just a thought.

[Turnbuckle]

@Turnbuckle: thanks for pics and interesting experiment. Question: are you aware that blue-green "algae" are actually photosynthesizing bacteria, often grown in sewer-enriched waters? They are not algae. They are not even eukaryotes. Considering the medium on which they are grown, why mess with them?

Are you saying that because they are actually bacteria and bacteria may be found in sewer water, that these from Source Naturals are also growing on sewer water?

I don't know where Source Naturals gets their bacteria grown. I stopped following this topic long ago, when I found out that cianobacteria grow naturally in sewer-rich waters and that's how some producers were growing them (cianobacteria do require nutrients for growth and sewer is the natural source of that).

You'd have to ask Source Naturals about that. Better yet, consider getting whatever benefit cianobacteria provide from other sources. And by the way, some cianobacteria are known to cause disease in immunocompromised individuals. Just a thought.

They get it from Klamath lake. Is that a problem in your experience, are or you just trolling this evening?

[xEva]

@Turnbuckle: thanks for pics and interesting experiment. Question: are you aware that blue-green "algae" are actually photosynthesizing bacteria, often grown in sewer-enriched waters? They are not algae. They are not even eukaryotes. Considering the medium on which they are grown, why mess with them?

Are you saying that because they are actually bacteria and bacteria may be found in sewer water, that these from Source Naturals are also growing on sewer water?

I don't know where Source Naturals gets their bacteria grown. I stopped following this topic long ago, when I found out that cianobacteria grow naturally in sewer-rich waters and that's how some producers were growing them (cianobacteria do require nutrients for growth and sewer is the natural source of that).

You'd have to ask Source Naturals about that. Better yet, consider getting whatever benefit cianobacteria provide from other sources. And by the way, some cianobacteria are known to cause disease in immunocompromised individuals. Just a thought.

They get it from Klamath lake. Is that a problem in your experience, are or you just trolling this evening?

LOL Who's tolling?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upper_Klamath_Lake

The lake is naturally eutrophic, resulting in a high concentration of nutrients. In the 20th century, the augmentation of nutrients by agricultural runoff from the surrounding farming valley has caused the lake to become hypereutrophic, resulting in blue-green algae blooms over the lake ( largely Microcystis aeruginosa and Aphanizomenon flos-aquae). The algae blooms turn the water an opaque green in the summer and reduce the opportunity for recreational uses of the lake. State standards for dissolved oxygen are routinely violated, meaning that fish are endangered.

See, it is the nutrients from agricultural runoff that cause the cianobacterial blooms in Klamath lake. If you care to study this subject, it has always been either animal or human waste that supported cianobacterial growth.

bon appetit mon cheri

[Turnbuckle]

See, it is the nutrients from agricultural runoff that cause the cianobacterial blooms in Klamath lake. If you care to study this subject, it has always been either animal or human waste that supported cianobacterial growth.

And the plants you are eat grow in dirt with all those same things in it. So what? The point of the experiment was to test the hypothesis of GVA in the OP, and chlorophyll from a bottle of blue-green algae was on hand so I used it. GVA stated--and he can correct me if I'm wrong--that chlorophyll in the EVOO acted as an intermediary between C60 dissolved in oil and a hydrated form of C60, which he contended was the real source of the positive effects seen. I found no clear evidence of that.

[cesium]

And, niner, you have failed as a moderator. Someone who writes a one-liner with the advice to seek psychiatric help is in clear violation of your terms of service, and that posting should have been deleted by you, not endorsed. I have just PM'ed the principals of imminst that it is your failure as a moderator to prevent personal abuse from happening, as well as you yourself personally abusing me, that there will be no more donations forthcoming from my company.

I've learned more from niner than any other single poster to this forum and think he's done an outstanding job as a mod. It is people like him and Dr. Andrievsky who have advanced degrees in chemistry/ biochemistry/life sciences ect that I want to see commenting here, not the hysterical personal attacks from some vendor who apparently feels their business interests are threatened. You are way out of line here and potentionally discouraging other highly educated professionals from wanting to contribute to this forum for fear of involving themselves in such petty and distastefull nonsense, so quit with the personal attacks please. Thank you.

[SarahVaughter]

All true and well that niner taught you something, but that does not give him the moral right to endorse ad-hominem attacks against me, or engage in them himself. Especially as a moderator, he should be held to certain minimum ethical standards.

As to me attacking competing vendors, you have it backwards. The title of this thread is a direct attack on our product, claiming that it is in fact its minute contents of the (expensive!) product of the OP responsible for its beneficial effects. I feel that I am entitled to defend. I don't know whether you've noticed, but the OP is engaging in a prolonged SPAM campaign for his product on this forum. I never commented on that, but I feel I have the right to give my opinion on the OP's product when in my opinion wholly unfounded claims are made about my own product.

If you want to chase away those rare vendors that give full disclosure and even substantially sponsor(ed) this forum, you have succeeded, because weeks ago I vowed never to return unless again subjected to a personal attack, which you just made. You are free to use Hydrated fullerenes instead of lipofullerenes.

I don't think C60 vendors with a Chemistry Ph.D. should get priority over those without one. I am a medical journalist, I have written about 100 articles, some with thousands of Facebook likes. I wrote a non-profit book on a medical subject, my credentials as a professional sceptic have been well-established, whereas the OP has publicly stated that he believes in Homeopathy, and he holds the patent to a product (a C60 drink) that can only be described as a homeopathic product.

Edited by SarahVaughter, 19 January 2013 - 07:09 PM.

[niner]

Sarah, you seem to interpret a lot of things as personal attacks that most people don't see as such. GVA offered a hypothesis for discussion. That wasn't an attack on you or your business. I don't like to delete posts that are made by members of this community. If I delete a post, it is most likely spam or trollery, or else it is really out of line. If I don't delete a post, that doesn't mean I endorse it.

[cesium]

...If you want to chase away those rare vendors..

I don't want to chase anybody away, I enjoyed reading your website, and even referred my sister who has ms to check out your section on it which she loved. I've also enjoyed Anthony's posts too, but he's another vendor who upon occasion has allowed this vendor/ego/drama thingy to the detriment of keeping things on a scientific level. You lose objectivity and take it as a personal threat towards you/your business and an otherwise interesting discussion is interrupted. That biz stuff should have its own section.

[trance]

I think we all learn a lot more, than under usual circumstances, just by reading these types of threads actually.

[SarahVaughter]

As I said, I will never post here again until I am either notified by email of a thread I subscribed to of an ad-hominem directed at myself, or a factual inaccuracy in a claim pertaining my products. I am not interested in using this forum to promote my products, because it is a transparent thing to intelligent people and thus will backfire. We don't believe in spamming, but we do believe in brand protection against false allegations by competitors. You may find that in years of selling dermarolling products, I have only made a handful of postings on forums on that topic, and they were (nearly) all to put inaccuracies straight. Farewell.

Edited by SarahVaughter, 19 January 2013 - 09:39 PM.

[Andey]

I think we all learn a lot more, than under usual circumstances, just by reading these types of threads actually.

May be we learn more about people, but I doubt that we could advance in topic discussion with such approuch.

Summarizing thread advance on topic - GVA have shared his hypothesis, and Turnbuckle have checked it and proved wrong with simple experiment.
Now ball is on Andrievsky side - he can discuss methology of experiment or agree with it or made his own experiment.
And I see nothing personal with this discussion.

As for Sarah..I wish her good luck. I think she is a good person in everyday life and good enterpreneur.
Unfortunatly this topic encourage her to express her darker sides, but who didnt make a mistake ? )

[Turnbuckle]

Summarizing thread advance on topic - GVA have shared his hypothesis, and Turnbuckle have checked it and proved wrong with simple experiment.

I can't say I've proved it wrong, actually. GVA claimed that chlorophyll produced an intermediate product with C60 and ended up with some amount of hydrated C60. That I couldn't see any color change when I added in extra chlorophyll and mixed the dissolved C60/EVOO/chlorophyll with water doesn't prove anything except there wasn't enough hydrated C60 to change the color of the water. There could still be enough since he claims it doesn't take much. Also, I find--very, very subjectively--that the mix with extra chlorophyll might be more effective than the mix with plain EVOO, and thus I made another mix with three times as much and I'm trying this now.

[Andey]

Summarizing thread advance on topic - GVA have shared his hypothesis, and Turnbuckle have checked it and proved wrong with simple experiment.

I can't say I've proved it wrong, actually. GVA claimed that chlorophyll produced an intermediate product with C60 and ended up with some amount of hydrated C60. That I couldn't see any color change when I added in extra chlorophyll and mixed the dissolved C60/EVOO/chlorophyll with water doesn't prove anything except there wasn't enough hydrated C60 to change the color of the water. There could still be enough since he claims it doesn't take much. Also, I find--very, very subjectively--that the mix with extra chlorophyll might be more effective than the mix with plain EVOO, and thus I made another mix with three times as much and I'm trying this now.

I think C60 solubility depends on contents of olive oil. Friend of mine who lives in Canada bought a cheap virgin olive oil on sale, and struggled over a month with it, trying to shake it by hands.
Eventually he visited Kiev and brought the bottle - I put it to stirrer but after two days color was still brown/yellow with a lot of visible particles. I use only mechanically pressed oil and even if C60 not grinded it gives brown/red color to oil in few days. If grinded it works almost immediatly.

[YOLF]

Immootality, or immortality?

Hey Sarah! You're silly! (personal attack)

I do hope you'll reconsider. The loss of a clear voice only makes tinnitus more apparent My first impression was the same for this thread (blatant self promotion), and given the relatively low cost of materials, I'd like to know why GVA charges so much for his product and see an accounting of his expenses and endeavors and some kind of tests to back up his claims and I'd also like to know what kind of philanthropy he his involved in. I'm withholding judgement on all counts, but I want to know that this community is promoting scientific advancement* for the purpose of widespread access to immortality rather than diluting a great discover and causing the movement harm. For as far as I can tell, this community actually seeks to conquer aging as opposed to herding unlimited lifespan believers into the aging/death slaughterhouse.

*I even worry sometimes that my questions and statements here might do as well to harm as to help. My purpose in choosing this name was to create a more coherent cultural identity for immortalists, yet I often find myself blindly suggesting plausible (in my mind) solutions because it's a passion and I want to do more than I am qualified to do cuz it gets me excited. Perhaps I need a personal disclaimer?

[Andey]

Summarizing thread advance on topic - GVA have shared his hypothesis, and Turnbuckle have checked it and proved wrong with simple experiment.

I can't say I've proved it wrong, actually. GVA claimed that chlorophyll produced an intermediate product with C60 and ended up with some amount of hydrated C60. That I couldn't see any color change when I added in extra chlorophyll and mixed the dissolved C60/EVOO/chlorophyll with water doesn't prove anything except there wasn't enough hydrated C60 to change the color of the water. There could still be enough since he claims it doesn't take much. Also, I find--very, very subjectively--that the mix with extra chlorophyll might be more effective than the mix with plain EVOO, and thus I made another mix with three times as much and I'm trying this now.

Andrievsky call me yesterday and said that he is very busy now and didnt have opportunity to participate here, asked me to retranslate his words. His colleagues ongoing now with some experiment to prove or disprove his hypothesis.
He will write here on results.

Will see )

P.S. I am get used to sock puppet role )) Hope this is last time I retranslate somebody )

[somecallmetim]

Andey,

Sock puppet or not, your contributions to this thread are much appreciated.

[somecallmetim]

My first impression was the same for this thread (blatant self promotion), and given the relatively low cost of materials, I'd like to know why GVA charges so much for his product and see an accounting of his expenses and endeavors and some kind of tests to back up his claims and I'd also like to know what kind of philanthropy he his involved in.

I would suggest performing a little due diligence by going back to the first page or two of this thread and read my post on the cost of IPAC's fullerene water. And as far as GVA being the sole person in charge of deciding what the pricing structure is for their products - I don't know, but I doubt it. Lastly, I don't see how it's anyone's business what kind of philanthropy he is involved in - that information shouldn't have any bearing.

I'm withholding judgement on all counts, but I want to know that this community is promoting scientific advancement* for the purpose of widespread access to immortality rather than diluting a great discover[y] and causing the movement harm.

And how exactly are you contributing to the immortality movement?

[Andey]

Andey,

Sock puppet or not, your contributions to this thread are much appreciated.

Thanks )

[Fred_CALICO]

You have a problem with homeopathy?
A large global misunderstanding seems to me it.
You can choose to read the story from Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia....ques_Benveniste

http://en.wikipedia..../Luc_Montagnier

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Water_memory

But the story is truncated, partial view falsified.

The history of science is full of scientific disagreements.

Challenges when a scientific paradigm it is certain to be treated as a charlatan. challenges when an economic paradigm (medical and pharmacological) are even bigger risk.

I followed partially the case and I have much to say.
But I'll make it short.

In the current state:
1 / Yes water "a kind of memory." (persistent cluster)
2 / In vitro clusters persist for a few days, typically two to three weeks in good conditions.
3 / In vivo it seems that clusters persist due to a phenomenon of resonance self-sustaining.
4 / Freezing destroys clusters.
5 / A temperature above 70 ° C for ten minutes destroyed all clusters.

All this explains nothing about homeopathic remedies. There is a confusion of genres that prevents anti-homeopathy people to see a paradigm shift.

Information on the spatial arrangement is important. The physical contact between two molecules does not explain everything. Resonance vibration phenomena exist in vivo.

Notice Diagnostic methods currently used are almost.
For the rest it is a matter of economic policy and mentality.

• ↑ (en) L. Montagnier, J. Aïssa, S. Ferris, J.-L. Montagnier and C. Lavalléee, Electromagnetic signals are produced by aqueous nanostructures derived from bacterial DNA sequences,Interdisciplinary Sciences: Computational Life Sciences, 2009, Volume 1, Number 2,p. 81-90 [archive]
• ↑ (en) L. Montagnier, J. Aïssa, C. Lavallée, M. Mbamy, J. Varon and H. Chenal, Electromagnetic detection of HIV DNA in the blood of AIDS patients treated by antiretroviral therapy,Interdisciplinary Sciences: Computational Life Sciences, 2009, Volume 1, Number 4,p. 245-253 [archive]
• ↑ (en) L. Montagnier, J. Aissa, E. Del Giudice, C. Lavallee, A. Tedeschi etG. Vitiello, DNA waves and water [archive], arXiv > q-bio
• ↑ Le professeur Luc Montagnier recruté par une université chinoise [archive],

[Andey]

You have a problem with homeopathy?

Its not even a homeopathy.
Last call Andrievsky say he didnt understand why this tag popups eventually. He have said that C60HyFn dosage is 10 times lesser that Skulachev's skQ1 dosage but nobody treat Skulachevs ions as homeopathy.
Grigoriy mentioned that he is touch with Skulachev, and that he is involved in determining working concentations of skQ1.

When I received ampule of C60HyFn it has definite brown tint from C60 dissolved - obviously you could not see this tint after dissolving it in 7 liters of water (working concentration) but its nothing like homeopathy.

[niner]

I agree that it's not homeopathy, but I think the point Sarah was trying to make is that the concentration that's on the market is orders of magnitude less than what was used in the papers.

[Andey]

I agree that it's not homeopathy, but I think the point Sarah was trying to make is that the concentration that's on the market is orders of magnitude less than what was used in the papers.

For my observations dosages that we are used here of c60oo gives more actual effects than prescribed dosages of C60HyFn.

At least I didnt notice any effect of C60HyFn on endurance. But as you wrote before it could be most dosage dependant effect of C60, and may be such high dosages didnt necessary for therapeutic effect (it can may be even harmfull - who knows ?)

I think Grigoriy could shed the light on how he have calculated therapeutic dosage of C60HyFn. May be we can use same approach for C60oo to calculate dosage and estimate efficiency.

[Raza]

When Pfizer can make Lipitor for pennies, and earns a hundred billion dollars selling it at an enormous markup, we call that "Intellectual Property", the foundation of capitalism in the modern world. When Dr. Andrievsky works for the better part of two decades to characterize and demonstrate the efficacy of HyFn, finally obtains official approval and sells it at a huge markup, Sarah calls it a "scam". That doesn't seem consistent.

So on one hand we have "Intellectual Property; the foundation of modern capitalism" and on the other hand we have "a scam".

I'm actually not seeing the contradiction.


ETA: I'd apologize for derailing the discussion with political AoO, but it degraded to crap at least a page ago.

Edited by Raza, 24 January 2013 - 04:45 PM.