166 replies to this topic

[GVA]

I agree that it's not homeopathy, but I think the point Sarah was trying to make is that the concentration that's on the market is orders of magnitude less than what was used in the papers.

For my observations dosages that we are used here of c60oo gives more actual effects than prescribed dosages of C60HyFn.

At least I didnt notice any effect of C60HyFn on endurance. But as you wrote before it could be most dosage dependant effect of C60, and may be such high dosages didnt necessary for therapeutic effect (it can may be even harmfull - who knows ?)

I think Grigoriy could shed the light on how he have calculated therapeutic dosage of C60HyFn. May be we can use same approach for C60oo to calculate dosage and estimate efficiency.

Andey, thankts!!!
Naturally, to give such I consider that is absolutely impossible. It would be possible to try to make such, but if you have the C60-OO that well investigated, standardised on all parameters and officially approved as means for prevention or treatment. For C60 dissolved in some OO, the such not made anywhere in the world.
On the other hand I am completely confident that biological effects which have found out or will be found out in the future by the “Big rats” that apply some solutions of "hydrophobic" C60 in OO, will coincide in many respects with known and wide spectrum of positive biological activity of high hydrophilic C60HyFn - supramolecular complex of C60 molecule with the fixed and well defined number of H2O molecules.
Why such coincidence is? And like you also, I am thinking now and carrying out, as far as possible, the corresponding researches to understand the a similar phenomenon.
P.S. As of C60-OO at diabetes, at alcohol consumption that discussed on this forum, and for comparison with C60HyFn, pl see
http://dx.doi.org/10...tox.2010.12.003 (with using “homeopathic” solutions of C60HyFn)
http://dx.doi.org/10.4172/2155-6156.1000215 (with using “standard doses” of C60HyFn)
http://dx.doi.org/10...tox.2008.01.005 (with using “homeopathic” solutions of C60HyFn)

[niner]

http://dx.doi.org/10...tox.2010.12.003 (with using “homeopathic” solutions of C60HyFn)
http://dx.doi.org/10.4172/2155-6156.1000215 (with using “standard doses” of C60HyFn)
http://dx.doi.org/10...tox.2008.01.005 (with using “homeopathic” solutions of C60HyFn)

Thanks, GVA. I had not previously seen all of these. For the benefit of the forum, here are the doses used in the two low-dose papers:

Toxicol 2008 p. 158-65: 30 nM = 21.6 ug/l in drinking water
Toxicol 2011 p. 69-81: 4 ug/l in drinking water
Commercial HyFn fully diluted product: 2.8 nM = 2 ug/l

These doses are reasonably comparable, and should put to rest any claims of "homeopathy". If I were to replace all my drinking water with the HyFn water, I'd get a dose of 8-10 ug/day, more or less. My 15mg monthly dose of c60-oo works out to about 500 ug/day. It may be the case that I'm getting more c60 than I need, or it might be the case that HyFn is more bioavailable. It might also be the case that for full benefits from HyFn, you need to use a dose closer to the 2008 paper, like 50 ug/day, or maybe even more.

[Turnbuckle]

I recently started a daily regime of 50-100 µg C60 in EVOO (+ extra chlorophyll). So far so good, but I’ve also added 500 mg methionine to dampen the postulated demethylation effect.

Edited by Turnbuckle, 25 January 2013 - 10:32 PM.

[niner]

I recently started a daily regime of 50-100 µg C60 in EVOO. So far so good, but I’ve also added 500 mg methionine to dampen the postulated demethylation effect.

Methionine restriction is a known life extension method, so would supplementing Met be life-shortening?

[Turnbuckle]

I recently started a daily regime of 50-100 µg C60 in EVOO. So far so good, but I’ve also added 500 mg methionine to dampen the postulated demethylation effect.

Methionine restriction is a known life extension method, so would supplementing Met be life-shortening?

It's odd, isn't it, that a good antioxidant like methionine would shorten life. (Or actually, that its restriction prolongs it.) One theory is that it hypermethylates DNA over time (which it does), and thus it might be a good balance to C60, which by my theory does the opposite, but much quicker.

[Kevnzworld]

I recently started a daily regime of 50-100 µg C60 in EVOO. So far so good, but I’ve also added 500 mg methionine to dampen the postulated demethylation effect.

Methionine restriction is a known life extension method, so would supplementing Met be life-shortening?

It's odd, isn't it, that a good antioxidant like methionine would shorten life. (Or actually, that its restriction prolongs it.) One theory is that it hypermethylates DNA over time (which it does), and thus it might be a good
balance to C60, which by my theory does the opposite, but much quicker.

I would be concerned about supplemental methionine increasing homocysteine levels and interfering with DNA methylation, which may be how it's restriction extends life.
" . High dietary methionine intake might therefore be expected to increase DNA methylation. Because of the circular nature of the methionine cycle, however, methionine excess may actually impair DNA methylation by inhibiting remethylation of homocysteine. "
http://jn.nutrition....6/6/1706S.short
" Conclusions—Oral methionine loading raises plasma homocysteine and impairs flow-mediated endothelium-dependent vasodilatation. This supports the view that homocysteine may promote vascular disease by inducing endothelial dysfunction."
http://circ.ahajourn...8/18/1848.short

[Turnbuckle]

" Conclusions—Oral methionine loading raises plasma homocysteine and impairs flow-mediated endothelium-dependent vasodilatation. This supports the view that homocysteine may promote vascular disease by inducing endothelial dysfunction."
http://circ.ahajourn...8/18/1848.short

I'm taking .003 g/kg and they used .1 g/kg, so I'm not too worried.

[niner]

I'm taking .003 g/kg and they used .1 g/kg, so I'm not too worried.

According to nutritiondata.com, the 500mg you're taking is the amount of met in 2.65 large eggs. Probably won't kill ya.

[Fred_CALICO]

Is this a good topic?
My reading of the day:

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22750290
water-soluble pyrrolidinium fullerene derivative, C(60)-bis (N, N-dimethylpyrrolidiniumiodide) :
Taking these findings together, JAK2 V617F mutant-induced JNK signaling pathway is an attractive target for MPN therapy, and pyrrolidinium fullerene derivative is now considered a candidate potent drug for myeloproliferative neoplasms (MPNs).


http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19905986
The pyrrolidinium fullerene derivative showed cytotoxicity in HL-60 cells. The characteristics of apoptosis, such as DNA fragmentation and condensation of chromatin in HL-60 cells, were observed by exposure to the pyrrolidinium fullerene derivative. Caspase-3 and -8 were activated and cytochrome c was also released from mitochondria. The generation of reactive oxygen species (ROS) by the pyrrolidinium fullerene derivative was observed by DCFH-DA, a fluorescence probe for the detection of ROS. Pre-treatment with alpha-tocopherol suppressed cell death and intracellular oxidative stress caused by the pyrrolidinium fullerene derivative. The apoptotic cell death induced by the pyrrolidinium fullerene derivative was suggested to be mediated by ROS generated by the pyrrolidinium fullerene derivative.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/14643333
We examined the antibacterial and antiproliferative activities of alkylated C(60)-bis(N,N-dimethylpyrrolidiniumiodide) derivatives. The fullerene derivatives inhibited bacteria and cancer cell growth effectively. However, the fullerene derivatives with a long alkyl chain did not show antibacterial activity.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/12628669
At low concentrations of both fullerene derivatives, dioxygen uptake was inhibited, whereas at high concentrations, it was increased. At high concentrations, consumed dioxygen was converted to H(2)O(2). An electrochemical study revealed that reduced fullerene derivatives react with dioxygen. This activity was closely related to a redox property of the isomers.

[GVA]

http://dx.doi.org/10...tox.2010.12.003 (with using “homeopathic” solutions of C60HyFn)
http://dx.doi.org/10.4172/2155-6156.1000215 (with using “standard doses” of C60HyFn)
http://dx.doi.org/10...tox.2008.01.005 (with using “homeopathic” solutions of C60HyFn)

Thanks, GVA. I had not previously seen all of these. For the benefit of the forum, here are the doses used in the two low-dose papers:

Toxicol 2008 p. 158-65: 30 nM = 21.6 ug/l in drinking water
Toxicol 2011 p. 69-81: 4 ug/l in drinking water
Commercial HyFn fully diluted product: 2.8 nM = 2 ug/l

These doses are reasonably comparable, and should put to rest any claims of "homeopathy". If I were to replace all my drinking water with the HyFn water, I'd get a dose of 8-10 ug/day, more or less. My 15mg monthly dose of c60-oo works out to about 500 ug/day. It may be the case that I'm getting more c60 than I need, or it might be the case that HyFn is more bioavailable. It might also be the case that for full benefits from HyFn, you need to use a dose closer to the 2008 paper, like 50 ug/day, or maybe even more.

These results have been received in experiments with rats and mice. Standard recalculation for people of therapeutic doses that have been revealed in experiments with rats and mice, will give values, on the average, in 6 and in 12 times smaller, accordingly. In other words, has no big sense to increase doses Ñ60HyFn which you mention above.
SMIE (Sorry for My Imperfect English)!

[GVA]

Is this a good topic?
My reading of the day:

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22750290
water-soluble pyrrolidinium fullerene derivative, C(60)-bis (N, N-dimethylpyrrolidiniumiodide) :
Taking these findings together, JAK2 V617F mutant-induced JNK signaling pathway is an attractive target for MPN therapy, and pyrrolidinium fullerene derivative is now considered a candidate potent drug for myeloproliferative neoplasms (MPNs).


http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19905986
The pyrrolidinium fullerene derivative showed cytotoxicity in HL-60 cells. The characteristics of apoptosis, such as DNA fragmentation and condensation of chromatin in HL-60 cells, were observed by exposure to the pyrrolidinium fullerene derivative. Caspase-3 and -8 were activated and cytochrome c was also released from mitochondria. The generation of reactive oxygen species (ROS) by the pyrrolidinium fullerene derivative was observed by DCFH-DA, a fluorescence probe for the detection of ROS. Pre-treatment with alpha-tocopherol suppressed cell death and intracellular oxidative stress caused by the pyrrolidinium fullerene derivative. The apoptotic cell death induced by the pyrrolidinium fullerene derivative was suggested to be mediated by ROS generated by the pyrrolidinium fullerene derivative.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/14643333
We examined the antibacterial and antiproliferative activities of alkylated C(60)-bis(N,N-dimethylpyrrolidiniumiodide) derivatives. The fullerene derivatives inhibited bacteria and cancer cell growth effectively. However, the fullerene derivatives with a long alkyl chain did not show antibacterial activity.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/12628669
At low concentrations of both fullerene derivatives, dioxygen uptake was inhibited, whereas at high concentrations, it was increased. At high concentrations, consumed dioxygen was converted to H(2)O(2). An electrochemical study revealed that reduced fullerene derivatives react with dioxygen. This activity was closely related to a redox property of the isomers.

Biological properties of chemical derivatives of Ñ60 can differ and differ from properties "pure" Ñ60 in essence. It is defined by properties of chemical groups attached to Ñ60. Therefore to draw parallels between them is incorrect.

[GVA]

Is this a good topic?
My reading of the day:
.............................
..........................

Biological properties of chemical derivatives of Ñ60 can differ and differ from properties "pure" Ñ60 in essence. It is defined by properties of chemical groups attached to Ñ60. Therefore to draw parallels between them is incorrect.

Oh yes, has forgotten to add that the majority of water-soluble derivatives of Ñ60 exist in the water medium in a kind more or less large aggregates (associates) with the sizes in tens - hundreds nanometers. Really, these derivatives possess quite certain biological activity, but the exact molecular mechanisms of such activity nobody knows.

[Fred_CALICO]

I have a lot of shungite of Karelia.
I'll try practicing on the germination of various seeds vegetable.

[somecallmetim]

Hi Sell58,

My main interest is in Shungite and its carbon 60-like properties. It is my sense that Shungite has more to offer than the man-made version of C60 that everyone here is adding to olive oil, but I'm reluctant to post anything about it at this time. Perhaps when I have more research/experimentation under my belt.

If you don't mind explaining in more detail, what type of experiments were you planning on trying with shungite and vegetable seeds? This is moving away from the topic, so it might be better suited in a new thread.

[GVA]

Hi Sell58,

My main interest is in Shungite and its carbon 60-like properties. It is my sense that Shungite has more to offer than the man-made version of C60 that everyone here is adding to olive oil, but I'm reluctant to post anything about it at this time. Perhaps when I have more research/experimentation under my belt.

If you don't mind explaining in more detail, what type of experiments were you planning on trying with shungite and vegetable seeds? This is moving away from the topic, so it might be better suited in a new thread.

Dear Sell58 and Somecallmetim,
Be patient please, but now i am preparing my reply as of yours non-simple questions.
SMIE (Sorry for My Imperfect English)!

[Fred_CALICO]

Hi Sell58,

My main interest is in Shungite and its carbon 60-like properties. It is my sense that Shungite has more to offer than the man-made version of C60 that everyone here is adding to olive oil, but I'm reluctant to post anything about it at this time. Perhaps when I have more research/experimentation under my belt.

If you don't mind explaining in more detail, what type of experiments were you planning on trying with shungite and vegetable seeds? This is moving away from the topic, so it might be better suited in a new thread.

I'm not sure that water Shungite is a good thing.
Here in France, it is considered toxic (heavy metals, radioactive, aluminum ...).
The lot I got is not radioactive after measuring with a quarta RADEX.
Conductivity test: Excellent.



Test in a first time with three types of seeds of different plants (A, B and C).

Three groups (1,2 and 3) for each type of seeds (9 lots in total).

Batch processing:
-Lot 1 - Witness for germination with tap water

-Lot 2 - Germination in water shungite.
Water will prepare Shungite "traditionally" by soaking 200 grams Shungite type 2 in one liter of tap water for 3 days. Using water as germination after three days.

-Lot 3 - Water at 70 ° Celcius prepared for 12 minutes. Then placed in metallic container itself surrounded by a cork insulation (sound). A second container containing the quartz (Shungite + tap water) is placed inside the first container metal. Is closed to all Maximum external vibration isolation. Medical Coverage gold / silver throughout.
Wait 3 days before use as water germination.

Then seeds "A" are divided into three boxes kneaded. X 3 = 20 seeds 60 seeds Type "A".
Including 20 A1, 20 A2 and 20 A3.
Distribution identical seeds "B" and "C".

I would start when the outside temperature is more suitable because I have no place in the "closet" for my lab.So I would make two sets of germination tests. Moon with a rising phase and the other with Moon downswing.

Then the plants will be planting culture in nature is watered regularly in three different waters.

Edited by sell58, 05 February 2013 - 09:30 PM.

[SarahVaughter]

The only way to know whether your Shungite sample is not radioactive is to measure it with an instrument that can measure alpha radiation.
The Quarta Radex is not able to do that.

You'd need a scintillation counter (with photomultiplication tube) and to prepare a solution of suspended micronized Shungite particles mixed with alpha-fluorescent dye.

Unless you have such an expensive, sophisticated alpha-measuring instrument, you can not be sure that you won't get irradiated by alpha particles.

An ordinary Geiger counter, even one with a sensitive tube and a very thin mica window will measure alphas, but not when those alphas are emitted from impurities embedded in the Shungite, because alphas don't travel more than a few micrometers in such rock. They don't fly further than a few cm in air.

However, they are by far the most lethal radiation in an organism, since they have the ability to knock approx. 10000 electrons out of their orbits per medium-energy level alpha particle, and hence wreak havoc on your DNA.

Experimenter beware.

[Turnbuckle]

I'd be amazed if there was any radioactivity in a carbonaceous material laid down a billion years ago.

[SarahVaughter]

I was, for the sake of argument, assuming that Sell58 and his sources were correct.

Especially because it is postulated that the lipofullerene ends up in the cell membranes and remains there for a long time, it would be very bad if there would even be a very small amount of Alpha particles released.

With radioactive radiation, and especially with alpha particles, there is no safe dose. One alpha particle can badly scramble an entire Chromosome in a thousand places.

Edited by SarahVaughter, 05 February 2013 - 10:34 PM.

[Turnbuckle]

Considering that the fullerenes in Shungite contain no C-14, it would be less radioactive than any food source, and less radioactive than C60 made commercially, unless care was taken with the carbon source. The EVOO would contain far more radioactivity. Your body has about the same C-14 to C-12 concentration as the carbon dioxide in air, and this results in several thousand disintegrations per second. The fullerenes in Shungitie are so old that any C-14 decayed long ago. And if modern C60 were made from coal--an ancient material--it also would contain no C-14.

Edited by Turnbuckle, 05 February 2013 - 10:48 PM.

[Fred_CALICO]

(Alpha particles are emitted at a speed of about 20,000 km / s) over a very short distance (a single sheet of paper or 4-5 cm fully stop the air). It is said that the penetration of alpha radiation is low.

I do not have the equipment to measure alpha particles. The health status of plants is an indirect observation.

[niner]

I don't know if Shungite is radioactive or not- there are different grades of Shungite, some with relatively low amounts of carbon. But why in the hell would you want to use it as a source of C60 when you can buy high purity C60 for not much money? Because it's "natural"?

[Fred_CALICO]

<p>I take to myself the C60 Sarah Vaughter or whatever I prepared with my ol

I take to myself the C60 Sarah Vaughter or whatever I prepared with my olive oil (Castle Montfrin).
Studies show that shungite improves crop yields.
Other than water shungite be medicinally active.

I would also like to improve the yields of my fruit trees through natural methods.
It is also an occassion to test the aspect of "vibration" for a few dollars.
The human body is composed of a large quantity of the solvent / resonator that is H2O. The idea is active HyFn (good or bad) seems relevant.

I experience based on my meager means.

Do not worry about my health, I do not intend to drink the water.

I am not fearful overlooked alpha particles. I would put leather gloves when handling to reassure Sarah Vaughter.

[SarahVaughter]

There are more isotopes than just C14, Thurnbuckle. Shungite is only approx. 1.5% C60, the rest is a mixture of all kinds of minerals.

Sell58: I never implied that alpha's would be able to penetrate the skin. Alpha emitters are only dangerous when inhaled or orally ingested. But then they are extremely dangerous. There is a huge difference between what a cell nucleus receives in ionizing radiation dose when you stand next to radioactive material, or when you have it sitting a couple of micrometers from your DNA - especially with alphas.

Edited by SarahVaughter, 06 February 2013 - 09:04 AM.

[Fred_CALICO]

Alpha emitters are mainly heavy atoms.
Neutrons> 80
Protons> 60
The carbon is not involved.

Actually half-life of these heavy elements may be several billion years.
The shungite is known (but I have not found a precise analysis) to contain many atoms of classification. So there is a risk.

I paused sabbatical until June and I do not have access to the lab.
Otherwise I could practice a fluorescein test.

I am condemned to an estimate from the existing scientific literature.

I began to read:
http://195.37.231.82...f/8111x2093.pdf
He speaks of observation "tunnel effect" on the surface fragment shungite which is a bad sign.

I would amend this post when I have more information.

[Turnbuckle]

I don't know if Shungite is radioactive or not- there are different grades of Shungite, some with relatively low amounts of carbon. But why in the hell would you want to use it as a source of C60 when you can buy high purity C60 for not much money? Because it's "natural"?

Exactly, why buy a rock and have to extract it when you can buy it purified and concentrated? The mention of radioactivity was only in passing, without any references, but Sarah certainly jumped on it. Probably because it's competition.

[SarahVaughter]

When someone says that Shungite may be radioactive (I have no idea whether that claim is true, but I accepted it at face value), and someone says that his geiger counter shows that his sample is not radioactive, I felt compelled to point out that alpha emission does not show up on his Geiger counter. That's all there is to it. If his Shungite were to contain significant alpha emitters and he were to ingest it, he would have a big chance of dying of cancer. I now regret pointing that out and being accused of malicious intent for that.

Due to attacks from people such as yourself, I previously said that I would refrain from posting on this forum unless to set things straight when attacked, but I am still being emailed when this thread is active, and I was appalled by the assumption that a cheap Geiger counter could measure alphas. We're talking about life and death and an easy way to set things straight, so I succumbed to the temptation of posting here again, of course immediately followed by accusations of malfeasance..

I wrote a long article on the consequences of Fukushima, and I am currently writing an article on the nuclear-industry-paid-for slandering of Christopher Busby, expert in the field of the biological consequences of internal (mainly alpha) emitters. I spent hundreds of hours learning about all forms of ionizing radiation and the means to detect it, as well as the literature on their effects. On my site I have a gigantic PDF for download with hundreds of studies on the effects of Chernobyl.

Not everyone is out for profit all the time, Turnbuckle. I wrote many articles about Stevia, in fact I used to have an entire site about it. I don't sell any Stevia or anything remotedly connected to Stevia. The same with radioactivity and most other topics I write about.

Sorry for bothering.

Edited by SarahVaughter, 06 February 2013 - 12:14 PM.

[pleb]

from what i have read it's pretty much assumed that it is the C60 found in Shungite that gives it it's qualities,
also tests have shown a small amount of C60 in the soil produced vegetables yealds 6 to 7 percent higher, and is being considered as an addition to fertiliser,
using Shungite for this just seems to be flogging a dead horse with a different stick,,

[Fred_CALICO]

I thank Sarah for telling me about my casual attitude to face Alpha particles.
Sarah, your comment is relevant. Continue.
It is in the confrontation as we go.
I am not a traveler "news age" and is improving shungite yields vegetate. Not for drinking water.
But if Thorium is present in the fertilizer / Shungite I might find it in fruit trees. I do not want.

[Turnbuckle]

Not everyone is out for profit all the time, Turnbuckle. I wrote many articles about Stevia, in fact I used to have an entire site about it. I don't sell any Stevia or anything remotedly connected to Stevia. The same with radioactivity and most other topics I write about.

Sorry for bothering.

I'm am sorry if your true intent was educational, Sarah. I simply noticed how you do battle with those who are selling C60 (or that you think are selling C60), so I assumed this was yet another case. So my apologies.