21 replies to this topic

[anagram]

I have been using c60 for a few weeks and have decided to add several different antioxidants(astaxanthing, lycopene,..) to my c60-oo in the hopes of a potent and more mitochondrially targeted antioxidant. lycopene + c60 as well as astaxanthin + c60 both had very positive effects, though I realized that I may not be specifically targeting my mitochondria with those mixtures. co-q10 seems like something that would form a good abbduct which was the reasoning behind skq1, and the reason for its success. I believe using co-q10 with c60 might be a very very potent antioxidant like skq1 because co-q10 is taken up by mitochondria readily, and it is used in the parts of the mitochondria with the most oxidative stress.

[ClarkSims]

I have been using methylene blue also. The MB actually seems to have a more immediate effect.

[tintinet]

How much MB? I used it for a while, but got tired of cleaning up the stains. Never noticed anything I couldn't attribute to transient placebo effect.

[niner]

How much MB? I used it for a while, but got tired of cleaning up the stains. Never noticed anything I couldn't attribute to transient placebo effect.

Yeah, I can still see the MB stains on your guitar! As far as the efficacy, I never noticed anything from low dose MB that I couldn't chalk up to placebo as well, and after the first time or two, there wasn't even that.

Honestly, guys, I don't think c60-oo needs much help in the efficacy department.

[motorcitykid]

How much MB? I used it for a while, but got tired of cleaning up the stains. Never noticed anything I couldn't attribute to transient placebo effect.

Yeah, I can still see the MB stains on your guitar! As far as the efficacy, I never noticed anything from low dose MB that I couldn't chalk up to placebo as well, and after the first time or two, there wasn't even that.

Honestly, guys, I don't think c60-oo needs much help in the efficacy department.

What about exotic c60 asthaxanthin?

You posted this on another thread:

Astaxanthin is not a "carrier" for c60, and it is not a solvent in this context. The c60 that we are all using isn't pure c60; it has been reacted with olive oil, which forms an "adduct". The term "adduct" just means that the c60 has been "added" to another molecule, and has formed a covalent bond to it. In this case, the other molecule is probably the oleic acid part of the olive oil triglyceride, though it might also be other fatty acids. After the reaction product is hydrolyzed by lipases, you'll be left with a c60 with some number of fatty acids bound to it. The acidic ends of the fatty acids are extremely hydrophilic, and the fatty acid-substituted c60 really doesn't need any help getting absorbed or transported to where it's needed.

Because of its long conjugated double bond system (alternating double and single bonds), astaxanthin might serve to transmit electrons over a distance, acting like a wire. It might act to conduct electrons to or from c60, so a synergy is conceivable, though I don't know if there's any evidence for this, I'm just speculating. It's also possible that astaxanthin might form an addition product with c60. C60 is known to add to unsaturated systems (like oleic acid), forming addition products. If any of the c60-oo reacts with astaxanthin, it might be responsible for a synergy, but again, this is speculation on my part.

Astaxanthin is unlikely to be a carrier for tocotrienols.

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[ClarkSims]

How much MB? I used it for a while, but got tired of cleaning up the stains. Never noticed anything I couldn't attribute to transient placebo effect.

I am using 30 mb per day.
I definitely see my brain get jump started when I go off MB, and then start it again later. It is like coffee, that last 48 hours.

I typically wake up really early, the day after I start taking MB.

[Andey]

How much MB? I used it for a while, but got tired of cleaning up the stains. Never noticed anything I couldn't attribute to transient placebo effect.

Yeah, I can still see the MB stains on your guitar! As far as the efficacy, I never noticed anything from low dose MB that I couldn't chalk up to placebo as well, and after the first time or two, there wasn't even that.

Honestly, guys, I don't think c60-oo needs much help in the efficacy department.

If I recall right, skq1 sweet spot in nmol concetrations. If we add c60HyFn that somehow shown to be effective at even lesser dosages...
May be recents forum concerns about switching to week dosages mean simply that we need lesser dosages of c60oo ? And more dosage just counterproductive similar to skq1 ?

Edited by Andey, 02 January 2013 - 03:44 PM.

[niner]

How much MB? I used it for a while, but got tired of cleaning up the stains. Never noticed anything I couldn't attribute to transient placebo effect.

I am using 30 mb per day.
I definitely see my brain get jump started when I go off MB, and then start it again later. It is like coffee, that last 48 hours.

I typically wake up really early, the day after I start taking MB.

Do you mean 30 milligrams? If so, that's a dose that I could see having an effect. Most of the people around here have been talking about doses that are a hundredth of that, for which I can't see a plausible MOA.

[ClarkSims]

Ooops, typo. Yes 30 mg of Methylene Blue per day.

[ClarkSims]

In the trials for Rember, TauRx used 10mg, 50 mg and 100 mg does.
The 100 mg does had no affect. They said that there was an issue with the cellulose in the pill not releasing the MB, and that the patients actually received 0 mg, and so they combined the 100 mg patients with the control group. I think this is ridiculous. 100 mg / day of MB, would turn a person's urine Leprechaun green. If they had normal urine, that means they weren't getting any MB, and they should have known this immediately.

Here is the only detailed description of their experiments that I could find.
http://www.alzforum....ail.asp?id=1892

I interpret this as meaning that the positive effects of MB follow a roughly parabolic curve, with 0's at 0, and 100 mg, and a maximum somewhere just under 50 mg / day.

[anagram]

I feel an effect from mb at a nanomolar range, which is very weird. My reasoning behind using this absurd dosage is because of the DNA fragmentation/photo-sensitizing effects seen at higher doses. I would recommend you consider the photo-sensitizing effects of MB because it definitely can be counterproductive towards life extension.
I have actually completely stopped MB a few months ago because the day after I would use it, I would have brain fog.
which is the reason why I gravitated toward Astaxanthin + c60, which does not give me any brain fog, and feels a lot stronger that plain c60. Another thing that is pretty weird about Astaxanthin + c60 is that personally, i now feel massive effects from ingesting phenylalanine or tryptophan, which seem to persist for days, as If my body has no free radicals to degrade these neurotransmitters or something.
I also feel a bit off If I go more than a few days without some Folic acid, like my body is using energy much much quicker. Apparently Astaxanthin significantly increases mitochondrial respiration/ATP synthesis in dogs
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/23100599
perhaps its doing the same in me? 0_O

Edited by anagram, 02 January 2013 - 08:30 PM.

[motorcitykid]

I feel an effect from mb at a nanomolar range, which is very weird. My reasoning behind using this absurd dosage is because of the DNA fragmentation/photo-sensitizing effects seen at higher doses. I would recommend you consider the photo-sensitizing effects of MB because it definitely can be counterproductive towards life extension.
I have actually completely stopped MB a few months ago because the day after I would use it, I would have brain fog.
which is the reason why I gravitated toward Astaxanthin + c60, which does not give me any brain fog, and feels a lot stronger that plain c60. Another thing that is pretty weird about Astaxanthin + c60 is that personally, i now feel massive effects from ingesting phenylalanine or tryptophan, which seem to persist for days, as If my body has no free radicals to degrade these neurotransmitters or something.
I also feel a bit off If I go more than a few days without some Folic acid, like my body is using energy much much quicker. Apparently Astaxanthin significantly increases mitochondrial respiration/ATP synthesis in dogs
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/23100599
perhaps its doing the same in me? 0_O

Well sourced krill oil might be more synergistic with C60 than astaxanthin alone because of the phospholipids and fatty acids in krill.

[anagram]

I have never tried krill oil, though I have heard a lot of good things. But I believe that Squalene is what forms the abducts with c60, not just Phospholipids, so you could use Shark liver oil perhaps, instead of Krill oil alone. Mixing the two along with a Carotenoid would probably be a generally positive thing though things would probably get a lot less scientific at that point.

here are just some of the Squalene + c60 studies done

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19371265
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/20488530
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/20499832

I think its obvious that quite a few researchers at pub med believe that the Squalene+c60 abduct is the longevity factor in c60-oo


oh and I forgot to add this, c60 does form abducts with Carotenoids, like Vitamine A,
so I have hypothesized that it does the same with Astaxanthin,(a Carotenoid that shares the same double bond chain with Squalene, vitamine A, etc)

-here is the study on Vitamine A conjugation with c60-
the scrolling is a bit tricky but if you scroll down to the page 7 with the pictures of rat livers(right before 4.2.2 biodistribution), and on the bottom you will see that it reads(c60 conjugates with vitamine A via a diels alder like reaction in the liver)
http://extremelongev...0-Fullerene.pdf


in case you don't know what a diels alder reaction is, its when a double bond, bonds to another carbon chain, like If you can imagine a benzene molecule with double bonds, and a fatty acid chain comes up, and the benzene bonds to the fatty acid chain.

Edited by anagram, 03 January 2013 - 03:19 AM.

[niner]

I have never tried krill oil, though I have heard a lot of good things. But I believe that Squalene is what forms the abducts with c60, not just Phospholipids, so you could use Shark liver oil perhaps, instead of Krill oil alone. Mixing the two along with a Carotenoid would probably be a generally positive thing though things would probably get a lot less scientific at that point.

here are just some of the Squalene + c60 studies done

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19371265
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/20488530
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/20499832

I think its obvious that quite a few researchers at pub med believe that the Squalene+c60 abduct is the longevity factor in c60-oo

Those papers are all about squalane, not squalene. There is a world of difference, which is why the chemists on this forum seem like such spelling nazis. It matters. Squalane is an alkane. It is fully saturated, which means it has no double bonds. If it forms an adduct (not abduct), it will have to be through a radical mechanism, and is probably not super-likely.

I don't think that there are any researchers anywhere that think squalane-c60 adduct is the longevity factor in c60-oo, since there is no squalane in olive oil. Squalane does not occur in nature. It's unlikely to be a squalene adduct either. There are already major components of olive oil (the fatty acids) that are known to be easily capable of adduct formation, so why look for improbable alternatives?

Edited by niner, 03 January 2013 - 03:58 AM.

[trance]

here are just some of the Squalene + c60 studies done

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19371265
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/20488530
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/20499832

I think its obvious that quite a few researchers at pub med believe that the Squalene+c60 abduct is the longevity factor in c60-oo

And none of those three studies have anything to do with "longevity factors" ...

[anagram]

here are just some of the Squalene + c60 studies done

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19371265
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/20488530
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/20499832

I think its obvious that quite a few researchers at pub med believe that the Squalene+c60 abduct is the longevity factor in c60-oo

And none of those three studies have anything to do with "longevity factors" ...

Ok, well I came to the conclusion that these researchers decided that they should test the Squalene + c60 in the hopes of determining the key factor in c60-oo that produces longevity because olive oil has large amounts of Squalene in it.

I have never tried krill oil, though I have heard a lot of good things. But I believe that Squalene is what forms the abducts with c60, not just Phospholipids, so you could use Shark liver oil perhaps, instead of Krill oil alone. Mixing the two along with a Carotenoid would probably be a generally positive thing though things would probably get a lot less scientific at that point.

here are just some of the Squalene + c60 studies done

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19371265
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/20488530
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/20499832

I think its obvious that quite a few researchers at pub med believe that the Squalene+c60 abduct is the longevity factor in c60-oo

Those papers are all about squalane, not squalene. There is a world of difference, which is why the chemists on this forum seem like such spelling nazis. It matters. Squalane is an alkane. It is fully saturated, which means it has no double bonds. If it forms an adduct (not abduct), it will have to be through a radical mechanism, and is probably not super-likely.

I don't think that there are any researchers anywhere that think squalane-c60 adduct is the longevity factor in c60-oo, since there is no squalane in olive oil. Squalane does not occur in nature. It's unlikely to be a squalene adduct either. There are already major components of olive oil (the fatty acids) that are known to be easily capable of adduct formation, so why look for improbable alternatives?

could you give a source for the fatty acid abduct formation?
I to am a little unsure that just any double bonded molecule will bond to c60, though the fact that a very unnatural diel alder reaction occurs between c60 and vitamine A suggests that the mechanism is not entirely caused by the body and probably has very little discrepancy with what ever chemical the c60 bonds to, other than the fact that it must have a double bond for a diels alder reaction to take place. so basically Carotenoids are on the list of things that can bind to c60.

I believe that because the reaction in these rats was leaning toward vitamine A + c60 is simply because vitamine A is the most common carotenoid in the rats body, though If there was perhaps the Carotenoid Astaxanthin in greater abundance that vitamine A, the reaction might favor Astaxanthin + c60.

Right now no one knows exactly which chemical constitute of c60-oo is going into mitochondria and generating such beneficial effects. Squalene seems sensible because of its very strong uptake by mitochondria for the synthesis of cholesterol, and in comparison to phospholipids, Squalene's double bonded chain is much more likely to react than a fully saturated/partially unsaturated phospholipid.
Squalene is actually so common and permeable to our flesh that we constantly have a layer on our skin, and it is in very high concentrations in the brain and internal organs though a few people believe that phospholipids are what is being so strongly absorbed into tissue, though phospholipid abducts are huge...

[rashlan]

In the trials for Rember, TauRx used 10mg, 50 mg and 100 mg does.
The 100 mg does had no affect. They said that there was an issue with the cellulose in the pill not releasing the MB, and that the patients actually received 0 mg, and so they combined the 100 mg patients with the control group. I think this is ridiculous. 100 mg / day of MB, would turn a person's urine Leprechaun green. If they had normal urine, that means they weren't getting any MB, and they should have known this immediately.

Here is the only detailed description of their experiments that I could find.
http://www.alzforum....ail.asp?id=1892

I interpret this as meaning that the positive effects of MB follow a roughly parabolic curve, with 0's at 0, and 100 mg, and a maximum somewhere just under 50 mg / day.

Could someone correct me? I thought the doses were 30,60 and 100mg three times a day?

[niner]

... olive oil has large amounts of Squalene in it.

There are already major components of olive oil (the fatty acids) that are known to be easily capable of adduct formation, so why look for improbable alternatives?

could you give a source for the fatty acid abduct formation?
I to am a little unsure that just any double bonded molecule will bond to c60, though the fact that a very unnatural diel alder reaction occurs between c60 and vitamine A suggests that the mechanism is not entirely caused by the body and probably has very little discrepancy with what ever chemical the c60 bonds to, other than the fact that it must have a double bond for a diels alder reaction to take place. so basically Carotenoids are on the list of things that can bind to c60.

I believe that because the reaction in these rats was leaning toward vitamine A + c60 is simply because vitamine A is the most common carotenoid in the rats body, though If there was perhaps the Carotenoid Astaxanthin in greater abundance that vitamine A, the reaction might favor Astaxanthin + c60.

Right now no one knows exactly which chemical constitute of c60-oo is going into mitochondria and generating such beneficial effects. Squalene seems sensible because of its very strong uptake by mitochondria for the synthesis of cholesterol, and in comparison to phospholipids, Squalene's double bonded chain is much more likely to react than a fully saturated/partially unsaturated phospholipid.

I'll give you a source for the fatty acid aDduct formation, but you have to stop calling them aBducts. The reference is Franco Cataldo. I think Sarah Vaughter has the full text on her site. There's little or no vitamin A in olive oil, and the sqalene content is only 0.2 to 0.7%. The oleic acid content is very high. Fullerenes also form adducts with other unsaturated vegetable oils or fatty acid esters that contain no other compounds. It's clear that the vast majority of the c60 must be in the form of a fatty acid adduct when we consume it. I think that's the active agent, and see no reason to postulate otherwise. Vegetable oils are triglycerides, not phospholipids.

[kenorb]

Try to add PQQ which stimulate mitochondrial biogenesis.

Edited by kenorb, 23 February 2013 - 05:05 PM.

[anagram]

If you do CR while on C60, I feel like the combo would significantly increase C60's efficacy.

You could also try to limit your sodium intake, perhaps throw some zinc and lithium into your stack as well.

I feel that PQQ blocks the mild pain reduction C60 gives. CR is the most potent thing you can do to increase C60's pain reduction.

[kenorb]

Sorry, what CR stands for?

[stephen_b]

Sorry, what CR stands for?

CR