517 replies to this topic

[ironfistx]

I recently had an MRI which revealed cartilage loss in my elbow. I immediately started researching treatment options since I would like to be able to keep weight lifting.

I've seen some site that recommend type II collagen supplements for cartilage, although there are other sites that say eating collagen doesn't mean it will get to your joints. Some other people said collagen supplements are too expensive and you should just eat Jello instead.

Then I found a product called "Fortigel" that is (a proprietary blend?) collagen hydrolyzate that supposedly has studies showing before and after MRI studies that show a regrowth of cartilage.

My doctor told me regrowing cartilage isn't possible.

The only products I found that contain "Fortigel" are some expensive things on UK sites, and then a product from Swanson called "Joint Health Drink Mix with FORTIGEL" which is like $20 for 30 servings. A serving contains 10g of Fortigel.

So my questions:

1) Is "collagen hydrolyzate" just a fancy word for "hydrolyzed gelatin"? I've seen hydrolyzed gelatin in some other joint supplements, such as Labrada's ElastiJoint.

2) If so, is $20 for 300g (the price of Swanson's product mentioned above) a good price? That's $0.066 per g. I see other "hydrolyzed gelatin" supplements that are like $5 for 30 2g servings, which amounts to $5 for 60g, or $0.083 per g. This comparison is only valid if "collagen hydrolyzate" = "hydrolyzed gelatin."

3) Can you actually regrow cartilage?

Links to the references to the studies on Fortigel:

http://www.fortigel....ific-proof.html
http://flexeze.co.uk...g-research.html
http://www.ergo-log....upplements.html

Edited by ironfistx, 02 January 2013 - 08:35 PM.

[Luminosity]

I've written a lot about these subjects here.

You can regrow cartilage, but it is a slow and tricky thing to do. I've done it. You need to protect the affected area from weight, pressure and friction. Take whatever steps you need to do to do that. Expect it to take at least fourteen to eighteen months. The supplements you might need to take may cost quite a lot of money. Cut down on soda, acidic food and drinks, caffiene, coffee, tea, chocolate, sugar and junk food. Eat a steamed green vegetable every day.

Google for my posts on this subject, and collagen and MSM. In addition to what I have recommended, StimTein supplements are good. I take four extra strength ones a day. More would be even better. You might be tempted to stop taking this supplement, and the others, early when the pain goes away. Don't. It will come back because the healing isn't complete yet and you may wear away the regrown cartilage. Give it the full amount of time recommended at least. Even after that, you may have to baby this area of your body. New cartilage regrows slowly and wears off quickly.

Western doctors basically don't know how to regrow cartilage.

Without putting weight pressure and friction on the affected area, if you can exercise safely, this is good. Increased circulation will help with healing. It doesn't have to be focused on that area. Walking or swimming may be fine.

Chinese medicine may help. There are some herbal formulas made for this purpose which I could track down, and acupuncture might help. I'd do the other things first.

Edited by Luminosity, 03 January 2013 - 05:32 AM.

[dogman333]

I believe you can re-grow the cartilage -- consider these things:

Check out Dave Asprey, the bulletproof executive, as he puts his ankle behind his head without warming up. And he rarely practices any stretching. He claims his ‘Bulletproof Diet,’ and especially collagen supplementation, has made his joints healthy, and thus, flexible.

If the flexibility improves significantly with collagen --- I think there's hope to re-grow cartilage.

Dave Asprey and Joe Rogan talk about collagen in this interview. This is good.

I've only been adding the collagen for the past two months -- so I believe it is slow -- however, my flexibility has improved significantly. I still can't put my foot behind my head! But I've been working on the exact same mobility routine for the past two years, and while I have made improvements month by month, the improvements have been very small. I felt like I was digging a ditch with a spoon. However, in the last month, I have achieved what would have been 3 months of improvement. I'm hopeful for the next several months! I'm 52 years old, and never exercised until a few years ago. I had terrible hip and t-spine mobility, that I have been working on for my kettlebell training.

Dave Asprey recommends Dr. Bernd Friedlander’s Collagen Peptides. It's the lowest molecular weight, the most bio-available. It's too pricey for me. I've been using Great Lakes Collagen. The molecular weight isn't that low, so I just figure improvements will take longer. There is even cheaper stuff, but I wanted something organic and grassfed, free of toxins typically in factory-farmed animals. Knox gelation would probably do it in a longer time frame --- it's just not as easily absorbed.

A final thought: Can you imagine someone out there running 5 miles with no cartilage in their knees?

Have you read Pete Egoscue book, Pain Free? Highly recommended. Even though you didn't mention any pain yet from the loss of cartilage, this book has several case of clients with NO cartilage in their knees. And alot of pain. That is, until they got their body back in line with the Egoscue program. In other words, most people would think: lack of cartilage = pain. However, this book shows how that kind of thinking is false. The real problem is poor movement. And loss of cartilage is a symptom of poor movement to start with. My experience wtih Egoscue is written here. It works.

Instead of having lots of cartilage to absorb poor movement patterns, someone could improve their movement and form. The egoscue approach is just one way. In fact, Russian sports science claims proper weightlifting lengthens the life of the joints. Pavel wrote about it, maybe in Enter the Kettlebell. Therefore, I don't believe the weightlifting is the problem. And Pavel's Super Joints has some interesting ideas for joints as well.

I understand you're concerned about your elbow. I hope these ideas help you along with your search. Good luck.

To really geek-out on gelatin/collagen, read this article by Ray Peat.

[ironfistx]

I am having pain but I didn't mention it in my first post.

I have two symptoms:

1) elbow pain that varies throughout the day anywhere between a 0 and a 4 on a scale of 10.

2) random tingling in my fingers, sometimes my pinky and ring finger (ulnar nerve?) sometimes my index finger, sometimes my thumb, and sometimes the base of my thumb at my palm. It kind of feels like a continual, low pressure "funny bone" hit and I can feel it in my elbow sometimes, too.

The tingling didn't really start until I got a massage about 5 days ago. I wonder if she did something wrong.

I have been taking vitamin B (complex) plus extra sublingual methyl B12 and extra P5P for the nerve pain as well as doing nerve gliding exercises throughout the day. Not sure if it's working.

[daouda]

You can regrow cartilage

- Chronic oral administration of hyrolyzed collagen (like fortigel) has some studies behind it
- Injections of glycosaminoglycans (Adequan) (hypothetical)
- Intra-articular injection of growth factors (probably difficult in the elbow though).
Google Dr Dunn IAGH. See that legendary thread (towards the end) for people brave enough to do it themselves http://www.kneeguru....e;topic=46074.0
- Stem cell procedures like http://www.regenexx.com/
- Maybe, prolozone (intraarticular injection of ozone)

EDIT
Just saw your post above. Have you ever taken fluoroquinolone antibiotics? I also have elbow pain (plus other pains and cartilage degeneration all over my body) and ulnar neuropathy (what you describe) caused by fluoroquinolone antibiotics.

Edited by daouda, 03 January 2013 - 06:27 PM.

[ironfistx]

To the best of my knowledge, the only antibiotic I've ever taken was Amoxicillin when I had my wisdom teeth pulled when I was 25 or so.

[FrankEd]

Each person is different, but talking about myself I have cartilage loss on my right knee, creaks, and pain.

I´ve taken hydrolized collagen type I and II during three years acording instructions, and it did not for me.

Not a sign of a small cure. I was thinking to use Jello but I doubt that I can obtain any relief considering that it´s the same as collagen.

[Mind]

I am having pain but I didn't mention it in my first post.

I have two symptoms:

1) elbow pain that varies throughout the day anywhere between a 0 and a 4 on a scale of 10.

2) random tingling in my fingers, sometimes my pinky and ring finger (ulnar nerve?) sometimes my index finger, sometimes my thumb, and sometimes the base of my thumb at my palm. It kind of feels like a continual, low pressure "funny bone" hit and I can feel it in my elbow sometimes, too.

The tingling didn't really start until I got a massage about 5 days ago. I wonder if she did something wrong.

I have been taking vitamin B (complex) plus extra sublingual methyl B12 and extra P5P for the nerve pain as well as doing nerve gliding exercises throughout the day. Not sure if it's working.

Sigh. Aging. Pain, tingling, numbness, stiffness, will increase every year. It has for me. Keep up the great attitude of fixing things! Don't accept the decrepitude of aging. Treatments get better and better every year.

Also, see here. It looks like Chicago is in the lead thus far.

[Luminosity]

ironfistx,

If a movement or activity gives you pain, don't do that. Avoid those movements for the healing process and however long you need to. Don't get massages or at least tell them to avoid the affected area. They do damage people. I'm not thrilled with their training process.

Please google my posts on this subject.

If you can afford to add it, another supplement that might help is Cola de Caballo by Amazon Therapeutics. It is a highly bioavaible source of organic silica. I get it from Vitacost.com.

Edited by Luminosity, 03 January 2013 - 11:45 PM.

[ironfistx]

There aren't really any activities that increase my pain. It mostly just hurts when it wants to, it seems. Sometimes doing nothing hurts. I try to rest my elbow in different positions but so far I have found no correlation between elbow position and pain. That being said, I haven't done an upper body workout or played guitar since the pain/tingling started. I'll be sure to post an update if those activities increase pain.

I Googled your posts (site:longecity.org luminosity cartilage). Are there any other keywors I should look for?

Yeah I learned my lesson about massages. It was the only massage I've ever had, and it was free

I ordered some of that Swanson joint mix drink with the Fortigel. I'll begin using it whenever it arrives.

Edited by ironfistx, 04 January 2013 - 12:03 AM.

[Luminosity]

collagen, MSM, epsom salts, boswellian, natural pain relief, Vitamin C. Inflammation, anti-inflammatories, chronic pain, chronic injury, injury, joint. Anything to bring the inflammation down by natural means would also be helpful.

Edited by Luminosity, 04 January 2013 - 12:13 AM.

[ironfistx]

Here's a thread discussing different procedures for cartilage regeneration (for the knee, but same basic concept I think). I'm posting it here so I can refer to it later since there are a lot of links and stuff in it.

It talks about HGH, growing cartilage in a lab and then implanting it in your joint, etc.

http://www.kneeguru....hp?topic=3743.0

[daouda]

That threads on kneeguru is outdated. The one I linked to in my earlier post above is much more recent, and with much MUCH more references and amazing anecdotal reporting from people having tryed all these therapies. It gets interesting towards the middle. Look for the posts by user "irentat". He has done IAGH (intraarticular HGH) done by Dr Dunn (the inventor of the procedure) several times, prolotherapy several times, then took matter into his own hands and done self-prolo, plus dozens of intraarticular injections of HGH and other growth factors (testosterone, IGF1)... with success (has actually regrown cartilage and has imagery to prove it). Like I said that thread is truely legendary. Too bad you dindt pay attention to my post.

[ironfistx]

Oh snaps, I have that thread open in a FireFox tab but must've skipped over it. I've been going research crazy today. Will read it now, thanks for the link!

[smithx]

StimTein supplements are good.

To me, StimTein looks like a fraud.

When you search for it, what comes up are a bunch of fake and paid sites. No mainstream ones.

Their ingredients claim to include "bone morphogenic proteins", but proteins by oral route are digested before they are absorbed, so even if the product did contain something by that description, it would not be likely to have any effect when taken orally.

Edited by smithx, 04 January 2013 - 09:04 PM.

[niner]

Is there any evidence that "collagen peptides" or "hydrolyzed collagen" are any better than plain old gelatine? Gelatine, after all, is made by... hydrolyzing collagen. I'd really like to see the evidence, since so far it just seems like Internet bro-science and unfounded claims by vendors. Is there anything solid?

[dogman333]

"hydrolyzed collagen" are any better than plain old gelatine?

I hope someone finds an answer.

For myself, it makes sense that most people's digestion is hampered to start with. Older folks often have less HCL in their stomach is just one aspect Eating good food is one thing. It's another thing to actually get the nutrients out of the food itself.

The reduced form, or more 'pre-digested' (hydrolyzed), supplements could be more effective in that view.

That said, our ancesters simply ate bone broth and gristle on their meat. They threw the feet and ears into the pot, and ate it along with the rest of the meat. They ate skin in one form or another. If they were healthy by simply eating the skin itself, then eating the processed gelation ought to be better than that! (Then again, their digestion was probably better than ours.)

On a practical note, the hydrolyzed collagen mixes easier, so it's simpler to mix in a glass of water and chug it down. I think that's why most people get it that way.

[BLimitless]

Very interesting thread. Posting for future reference.

I just found out about a Dr Schulze who snapped his ACL and tore his cartilage in a skiing accident. Refusing surgery, he supposedly grew it all back by cycling hot and cold temperatures on his knee joint (hot/cold hydrotherapy) and using a 'Deep Tissue Oil' formula (here is the formula). Of course the reason why ligaments & cartilage do not tend to grow well is because of poor blood flow. The hot/cold hydrotherapy cycles water towards and away from the skin while the Tissue Oil blows open the capillaries in the area and pushes blood to the region.

A web search should bring up many results. I am in the process of trying to prepare the concoction myself.

[ironfistx]

That threads on kneeguru is outdated. The one I linked to in my earlier post above is much more recent, and with much MUCH more references and amazing anecdotal reporting from people having tryed all these therapies. It gets interesting towards the middle. Look for the posts by user "irentat". He has done IAGH (intraarticular HGH) done by Dr Dunn (the inventor of the procedure) several times, prolotherapy several times, then took matter into his own hands and done self-prolo, plus dozens of intraarticular injections of HGH and other growth factors (testosterone, IGF1)... with success (has actually regrown cartilage and has imagery to prove it). Like I said that thread is truely legendary. Too bad you dindt pay attention to my post.

I'm like halfway through that thread so far. Thanks for the link.

[daouda]

I just found out about a Dr Schulze who snapped his ACL and tore his cartilage in a skiing accident. Refusing surgery, he supposedly grew it all back by cycling hot and cold temperatures on his knee joint (hot/cold hydrotherapy) and using a 'Deep Tissue Oil' formula (here is the formula). Of course the reason why ligaments & cartilage do not tend to grow well is because of poor blood flow. The hot/cold hydrotherapy cycles water towards and away from the skin while the Tissue Oil blows open the capillaries in the area and pushes blood to the region.

This is 100% true. Ligaments and tendons heal slowly and poorly because they are poorly vascularized, cartilage has even more limited healing capability because it is avascular.

Magnets also are supposed to achieve the same thing (the theory is that magnets attract the iron component of the blood to promote blood flow in the area). There isnt any studies proving it but some physiotherapists swear by it and claim great results (some professional rugby and soccer team physiotherapists use it on their players). They use some kinds of joint braces/sleeves with magnets incorporated into it.

But the best thing would be to inject growth factors (PRP, HGH, Test, IGF1 etc) directly inside the joint for cartilage regrowth. That's the only thing that has been clinically proven to work (Dr Dunn procedure)

I also know of a couple ppl having success injecting autologous blood intrarticularly (not PRP, total blood). Theoretically this shouldnt work though and even should be detrimental http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC1868108/
But in practice it does seem to work and would be the cheapest/easiest option.

People with OA interested in regrowing cartilage can PM me, Ill give you the link to that private forum where audacious ppl are sharing their experiences on such crazy and audacious DIY protocols. Cautious ppl need not apply. (some of the ppl on that forum are medical students in their last years though, not all meathead bros)

Edited by daouda, 05 January 2013 - 06:42 PM.

[trance]

Very interesting thread. Posting for future reference.

I just found out about a Dr Schulze who snapped his ACL and tore his cartilage in a skiing accident. Refusing surgery, he supposedly grew it all back by cycling hot and cold temperatures on his knee joint (hot/cold hydrotherapy) and using a 'Deep Tissue Oil' formula (here is the formula). Of course the reason why ligaments & cartilage do not tend to grow well is because of poor blood flow. The hot/cold hydrotherapy cycles water towards and away from the skin while the Tissue Oil blows open the capillaries in the area and pushes blood to the region.

A web search should bring up many results. I am in the process of trying to prepare the concoction myself.

Hmmm ... Be sure you follow his instructions and get your moon phases correct. From his instructions for the formula:

"Recipe: Put ALL of these Ingredients together in 1 BIG Jar on a New Moon. Allow them to soak until the Full Moon (about 2 weeks), then STRAIN the Liquid through unbleached Muslin Cloth or several layers of unbleached Cheese Cloth.
NOTE: If interested in making an even MORE POWERFUL Formula, then allow the Herbs to soak for 2-3 months, before straining the Liquid on a Full Moon."

Is the formula invalid if I don't believe in that moon science?

 scratching-head.jpg   45.07KB   13 downloads

.

[Luminosity]

I have been using StimTein for a while now and I believe that it works. It may look like a fraud but I don't believe that it is. They have a sixty day money back guarantee that I believe that they honor. They say it works for a lot of people but not everyone. I have talked to them quite a bit and they have talked about processing returns so it looks like anyone who wanted to could try it for sixty days and see how it works for them. I haven't found anything sleazy about placing order with them except that I have had them send parcel post when I wanted a faster way. I spoke to them about this and hopefully it is resolved. I did find that it takes me four extra strength tablets a day and I would take more if I could afford it. The pain got so much better that I went off them but it gradually came back. When I went back on StimTein, the pain went away again. They said that that happens to people so be sure to take it for the full recommended period. StimTein is not my main supplement for this but it is important.

I looked hard for consumer complaints about them and I didn't find any, so that says something.

[ironfistx]

I just Googled StimTein and most of the sites in the results are shady looking internet marketing sites.

Wow, even their actual website is a long sales page.

It might be a legit product but they're promoting it the same way get rich quick products are promoted.

[Luminosity]

I understand, but I've been taking it for about a year and I feel that it works. I am reasonably sure they would refund your money if it didn't work for you. I've had many long conversations with a guy that works there. He gives his pet six pills a day. When they sent my order by parcel post in the August heat by mistake, I asked them, just for my peace of mind, if I could return it, get my money back and send me new ones. They did and enclosed a free bottle for my trouble. If it was a bad product/company there would have been consumer complaints, which I am skilled at writing/finding. Again, I think that the Swanson's type II collagen is the most important supplement for me, perhaps followed by MSM but I don't want to be without this one.

I think they actually do run a company for promoting products, Excellent Marketing. I would not be afraid to try this product. It also has no negative side effects, for me.

[BLimitless]

Very interesting thread. Posting for future reference.

I just found out about a Dr Schulze who snapped his ACL and tore his cartilage in a skiing accident. Refusing surgery, he supposedly grew it all back by cycling hot and cold temperatures on his knee joint (hot/cold hydrotherapy) and using a 'Deep Tissue Oil' formula (here is the formula). Of course the reason why ligaments & cartilage do not tend to grow well is because of poor blood flow. The hot/cold hydrotherapy cycles water towards and away from the skin while the Tissue Oil blows open the capillaries in the area and pushes blood to the region.

A web search should bring up many results. I am in the process of trying to prepare the concoction myself.

Hmmm ... Be sure you follow his instructions and get your moon phases correct. From his instructions for the formula:

"Recipe: Put ALL of these Ingredients together in 1 BIG Jar on a New Moon. Allow them to soak until the Full Moon (about 2 weeks), then STRAIN the Liquid through unbleached Muslin Cloth or several layers of unbleached Cheese Cloth.
NOTE: If interested in making an even MORE POWERFUL Formula, then allow the Herbs to soak for 2-3 months, before straining the Liquid on a Full Moon."

Is the formula invalid if I don't believe in that moon science?

 scratching-head.jpg   45.07KB   13 downloads

.

I think the moon stuff is added by the person who copied the recipe from Dr Schulze. AFAIK it's the actual herbal concoction that matters, oil is oil. Habanero powder extract is going to burn like a mean beast. Instead of immaturely trying to mock it, how about we look at the damn ingredients:

Ingredients: 2 oz. - Organic Extra Virgin Olive Oil, 1/2 oz. - Peppermint Oil, 2 oz. - Wintergreen Oil, 1/8 cup - Habanero Cayenne Pepper Powder (300,000 heat units), 1/8 cup - Ginger Root (grated), 1/4 cup - Arnica Flowers, (dried), 1/4 cup - Marigold/Calendula (dried) and 1/4 cup - Saint John's Wort Flowers (dried).


Yeah, something tells me that packs a hell of a punch.

Edited by BLimitless, 06 January 2013 - 12:04 PM.

[niner]

I think the moon stuff is added by the person who copied the recipe from Dr Schulze. AFAIK it's the actual herbal concoction that matters, oil is oil. Habanero powder extract is going to burn like a mean beast. Instead of immaturely trying to mock it, how about we look at the damn ingredients:

I agree that the ingredients look legit for a topical. But I gotta say, if that person added the moon stuff, they really did a disservice to Dr. Schulze and his formula. When you find medical advice on the internet, you have to figure out on your own whether it's quackery or not, and the moon thing doesn't help people think this is for real.

[daouda]

An article on LEF that summarizes the IAGH procedure
http://www.lef.org/m...00-report2.html
The official IAGH website by Dr Dunn www.iagh.com
A thread on the "osteochondraldefects" forum with more links on the procedure http://osteochondral...x.php?topic=9.0

Its a shame that most doctors keep telling their patient "you cant regrow cartilage" and forcing them to accept suffering/diminished quality of life or sending them to a total knee replacement.

Edited by daouda, 06 January 2013 - 03:27 PM.

[kevinseven11]

IGF-1 should help.

[BLimitless]

I think the moon stuff is added by the person who copied the recipe from Dr Schulze. AFAIK it's the actual herbal concoction that matters, oil is oil. Habanero powder extract is going to burn like a mean beast. Instead of immaturely trying to mock it, how about we look at the damn ingredients:

I agree that the ingredients look legit for a topical. But I gotta say, if that person added the moon stuff, they really did a disservice to Dr. Schulze and his formula. When you find medical advice on the internet, you have to figure out on your own whether it's quackery or not, and the moon thing doesn't help people think this is for real.

Assuredly so. But let's hope that if you've got a full ligament and cartilage tear in your body you're not going to be so myopic as to go on a single page on the web, jot down some ingredients then throw the future of your limbs into that one egg basket. Looking around further on the web produces many results about the oil.

I am not saying the oil would be a cure-all although the original Dr Schulze does say it should regrow cartilage. The mechanism of action he recommends is thus: apply the deep tissue oil, to get blood pumping in that region. The mixture opens the blood vessels and concentrates it in that region. Then you do hot and cold hydrotherapy. Dip your knee in very hot water, hold. Then dip it into a bucket of super cold ice water, hold. Rinse and repeat. The blood shoots to your skin, then right back into the joint, and back out, in and out. It took the Dr some 6 months to see fruitful results.

This mobilises the blood; the primary problem with regenerating connective tissue as stated earlier is that blood flow is limited! So obviously getting blood moving and exercising the capillaries in that area, training them to shuttle blood better is going to be a help far more than a hindrance. Look at the vascularity of your average person. Now look at the vascularity of a person who does heavy 20-rep squats & bench presses. Their capillaries are bursting.



Have you ever tried alternating super hot and freezing cold showers? It's probably one of the most amazing things you can do! Give it a go, and tell me that hydrotherapy doesn't have a place. It gets your blood moving in blood vessels you did not even know you had, because they were so stagnant this whole time. If I remember correctly it is tradition in places like Finland to sit in the sauna, jump out into the ice and back into the sauna. For good reason!



Even if Deep Tissue Oil does nothing ultimately, it does something (so to speak). It might be a great adjunct therapy to the IAGH injection because it's damn well sure that we need more blood to that area, not less. Anyway thanks for all the information guys, I'll be looking up IAGH. I wonder if I could regrow my fully snapped ACL. Impossible is nothing, when knowledge is sufficient to cover all possibilities.


My due hope is that on a forum dedicated to literally achieving immortality, that people might have the foresight & open-mindedness to try each and every avenue of exploration! Once upon a time, to say that you could regrow brain cells by taking a mushroom would have gotten you laughed out of the room as a quack. Who's quacking now?

Edited by BLimitless, 06 January 2013 - 05:35 PM.

[stephen_b]

I have to wonder if unwanted calcium deposition in the cartilage isn't part of the problem, or if calcium metabolism somehow contributes to cartilage loss. I've had some relief from muscle and hip pain after taking a dosage of vitamin K2-MK4 that's a bit higher than typically used -- 10 mg/day (still quite a bit under the 45 mg/day used in the study of Japanese post-menopausal women.