517 replies to this topic

[BLimitless]

Here is an animation from the Center for Regenerative Medicine:

LaJRaN of the Knee

A cold laser is directed at the knee after the knee is injected with some kind of substance to aid healing. The end result? Increased blood flow.

If I can attain that with a topical oil then why bother going so far as to inject things directly into the joint?

[ironfistx]

Here's what I'm kind of talking about with Prolotherapy:

Someone posts a question wondering if it works.

Some noob joins the forum and makes his one and only post talking about how prolotheraphy was a super cure that either fixed him or a relative when nothing else would.

http://forums.physic...php?f=19&t=3105

It's almost as if the prolotheraphy people are Googling for "prolotherapy" and when they find a question, they join the forum and post a shill review.

Same thing all scammy internet marketing products do. "Does this [get rich quick] program actually work?" (Some noob with one post): "Yes! I used to be poor, but then I tried this program and it really worked! Within only 7 days I was making $5,000 per day! I went from welfare to owning two Ferraris!"

In fact, that thread on kneeguru is the only place I've seen prolotherapy mentioned that doesn't have this scammy feel.

When you email prolotheraphy clinics, they are all too eager to get you in the door. It reminds me of chiropractic a bit. It's about sales and getting new clients, not actually helping people. Chiropractors have their own underhanded methods for getting new clients that have been around before the internet became popular, but that's another topic for another thread.

edit - I'm not saying prolotheraphy doesn't work; I don't have enough data yet to make that claim. In fact, I am still looking into it as a possible treatment for my elbow. I'm just saying there is some shadeball marketing surround it, however.

Edited by ironfistx, 06 January 2013 - 06:06 PM.

[daouda]

Prolotherapy is more of a treatment for chronic tendinosis than for chondral defetcs / osteoarthritis. I personally know a lot of ppl with tendon/ligaments pbs whom it has helped greatly. The principle is the same as for extracorporeal shockwave therapy (which has research to back it up): inducing microdamage/irritation/inflamation to trigger a healing inflamatory response. It does seem to work for many. In that forum many are doing self-prolotherapy with good results. They do it repeatedly because it works (its quite painful), and nobody is getting money out of it.
Blimitless : with intraarticular injections you can get a far greater concentration of growth factors that you would get by merely increasing blood flow by light exercise/hydrotherapy/heating oils etc. Simply because cartilage is NOT a vascular tissue. But these aere definitely worthy complementary measures.

Edited by daouda, 06 January 2013 - 06:50 PM.

[ironfistx]

No one is getting money out of it? rofl. It's like $400+ per injection, more if you want other stuff added to it.

Anyhoo, as I understand it from a few threads, prolotherapy is more for tendon/ligaments, but if you add PRP to it it becomes more effective for cartilage. Can anyone confirm? Some people also add HGH to it for cartilage.

[daouda]

rofl? No one is getting money out of it, i was referring to self-prolotherapy. As in, do it yourself. Buy a hackett-hemwall manual, buy a few serynges, needles, dextrose solution, lidocaine, grow a pair, and you're set.

About the HGH PRP prolo and cartilage you seem quite confused :
Regular prolo is injections into tendons ligaments etc of a dextrose solution. Some prolotherapist use HGH, PRP or other proliferant for increased efficacy, as it brings additional growth factors whereas the dextrose only solution only counts on the growth factor brought by your blood in the inflammatory process. These injections do nothing directly for cartilage repair. Indirectly though, it could potentially fix the root issue which caused cartilage degeneration in the first place, like ligament laxity etc. And then allow light chondral defects to repair themselves.
Now some other prolotherapists also do intraarticular injections of these growth factor for cartilage repair, but this isnt "traditionnal" prolo anymore. And the meager doses they use are not enough for real cartilage regeneration as achieved by the IAGH procedure.

Edited by daouda, 06 January 2013 - 07:46 PM.

[ironfistx]

Oh, yeah, self-prolotherapy.

So are you saying prolotherapy isn't really indicated for cartilage regrowth unless it indirectly benefits it by allowing other issues to stop interfering with cartilage regrowth?

[daouda]

Exactly.

[ironfistx]

Would you say then that any prolotheraphy clinic who claims it can be used to regrow cartilage is lying?

[daouda]

Unless they are injecting PRP or HGH or another proliferant into the joint capsule, or unless they are treating someone whom ligament laxity cause cartilage degeneration, then most definitely yes.

Edited by daouda, 06 January 2013 - 08:12 PM.

[ironfistx]

Does Boron play any role in cartilage regeneration? I read some sites that suggested that it does, but I also read a site that said "Boron is an effective treatment for 95% or more in the relief of arthritis" and I'm pretty sure that's not backed up by any studies.

I'm interested to hear any info anyone has about this. Thanks!

edit - this page says 69mg of Boron daily "caused symptom remission in 90 percent of arthritis patients studied including people with osteoarthritis, rheumatoid arthritis and juvenile arthritis." 69mg!!! Isn't a normal dose 3mg?

http://www.chiro.org...oint_Pain.shtml

The cited study is this one:
5. Newnham RE. Arthritis or skeletal fluorosis and boron. Int Clin Nutr Rev 1991;11:68-70.

Edited by ironfistx, 09 January 2013 - 02:52 AM.

[Luminosity]

I've read that Boron has something to do with bones. Don't know that much more.

I don't really know anything about prolotherapy. Generally, just because something sounds scientific and medical and has injections and stuff doesn't necessarily mean you will get superior results. Or any results. It might be great or it might be bad or it might be in between. If I was you I would look into supplements first because they are less invasive and certainly sound cheaper than $400 a treatment.

[ironfistx]

I am looking into supplements first. Partially cuz I don't want to spend a lot of money if I don't have to, and partially because if I do get prolotherapy and my body wants to rebuild its cartilage, it would probably help if my system was already loaded up with glucosamine and MSM and chondroitin and collagen and whatever other things it needs to make cartilage.

[Luminosity]

I agree. You have to have something to make the cartilage with.

[Logic]

In osteoarthritis the cartilage structure becomes abnormal over time; the number of chondrocytes (cartilage cells) declines, cartilage extracellular matrix is lost, the composition of the matrix becomes abnormal, and there is pathologic matrix calcification. Osteoarthritis is another disease of aging in which the mitochondria are implicated. There is research evidence that these processes are caused or facilitated by altered mitochondrial respiratory activity in chondrocytes resulting in abnormal ATP energy production, that is, by mitochondria that have become de-energized.

Therefore, elements of the mitochondrial DNA mutation firewall also become part of the firewall against osteoarthritis. Glucosamine supplementation is another element of the anti-osteoarthritis firewall. There is limited clinical evidence that this substance can not only relieve joint pain due to osteoarthritis but also contribute to rebuilding cellular matrix. Its exact mode of operation is not well understood though it is known to affect matrix gene expression in chondrocytes. Finally, in both osteoarthritis and arthritis there is evidence that tumor necrosis factor alpha (TNFalpha) inhibits matrix synthesis by chondrocytes, particularly during inflammation. The anti-inflammatory firewall is therefore also highly relevant in warding off osteoarthritis. Several of the substances in this firewall, including curcumin, resveratrol and other flavinoids, serve to inhibit the expression of TNFalpha.
http://www.vincegiul...ngfirewalls.htm

Perhaps this is why C60oo lessens joint pain?

Certain supplements have the capability to penetrate into the mitochondria and prevent oxidative damage(ref). Acetyl-l-carnitine and alpha lipoic acid work synergistically(ref),(ref). This combination alone has been shown to extend the lives of some small animals by as much as 30% The R isomer of alpha lipoic acid can facilitate repair of mitochondrial DNA according to one study. It appears that the combination of Acetyl-l-carnitine and R-alpha lipoic acid can exert a preventative effect against Parkinson's disease according to a recent cell-level study(ref). Research on this relatively new combination of mitochondrial antioxidants continues and further interesting results can be expected.

Of course the previous list of supplements also applies, often in special ways. Resveratrol targets one of the enzymes that regulate the function of mitochondria, and has been shown to block high glucose–induced mitochondrial ROS production in certain animal cell lines. In the mitochondria. Coenzyme Q-10 is a key mediator for electron transfer and is a highly recommended supplement for people known to have a mitochondrial disease.

Telomerase activation via use of an astragaloside IV extract, as described in the firewall for the Telomere Shortening and Damage theory of aging, also provides mitochondrial protection and is part of this firewall. Telomerase expression does not always lengthen telomeres. When a cell is under stress, telomerase (actually its catalytic subunit TERT) migrates into the mitochondria. There TERT plays a DNA-protective role and improves mitochondrial functioning. Thia quote is from a study report entitled Telomerase does not counteract telomere shortening but protects mitochondrial function under oxidative stress. “While TERT maintains telomere length under standard conditions, telomeres under increased stress shorten as fast as in cells without active telomerase. This is because TERT is reversibly excluded from the nucleus under stress in a dose- and time-dependent manner. Extranuclear telomerase colocalises with mitochondria. In TERT-overexpressing cells, mtDNA is protected, mitochondrial membrane potential is increased and mitochondrial superoxide production and cell peroxide levels are decreased, all indicating improved mitochondrial function and diminished retrograde response. We propose protection of mitochondria under mild stress as a novel function of TERT.” Several other recent research reports supports this finding. For example, see the June 2009 publication Mitochondrial telomerase reverse transcriptase binds to and protects mitochondrial DNA and function from damage.
http://www.vincegiul...ngfirewalls.htm



Harvard Medical Study
Effects of Oral Administration of Type II Collagen on
Rheumatoid Arthritis
http://www.chickenca...m/harvardstudy/

[ironfistx]

I got the Swanson Joint Health Mix with Fortigel in the mail today. I'm starting with half a dose (5g) just to make sure my stomach is ok with it. It smells kind of like strawberry jellow and the taste is just fine. It mixes ok in cold water; there are still some bits of powder floating around but it's not hard to drink.

Here's the label:



I will keep taking this unless someone presents evidence to show that this is just a really expensive Jell-o.

[daouda]

Other substances you might want to look into for cartilage protection and hopefully cartilage regeneration : avocado and soy unsaponifiables , green lipped mussels, cetyl myristoleate / celadrin . Google them, some have stuidies you can find on pubmed

[Luminosity]

I agree, healthy fats and oils are good.

It looks like you have probably purchased types I and III bovine collagen? I would recommend mostly type II collagen for your purpose. Swanson's does sell a plain gel cap type too Chicken Sternal collagen II which I recommend. I've written how you dissolve the whole thing in water and take each dose at room temperature with a high quality vitamin C, and not a megadose, because excess acidity is bad for your problem. I would take this on an empty stomach.

Types I and III collagen are probably mostly made from hooves and hides. Some people think they help them with joint issues. The molecules are larger and harder to break down. Type II collagen is made of cartilage specifically and has smaller, more assimilable molecules. I find that it helps me much more. Types I and III just make my skin break out, personally. Others have a different experience, but I question if this is their best collagen choice for a joint issue. Some people claim they are the same. They are really not.

There are a lot of discussions on collagen on this site.

http://www.swansonvi...500-mg-120-caps

There's counterfeit type II collagen out there. The one mentioned is the only one I trust right now. There are also poorly formulated type II collagen's.

It's also likely that you would be helped getting the type of MSM I recommend and taking it as I recommended.

http://www.swansonvi...Oph&pcrid=18186

Here's a good vitamin C. I put it in empty gel caps to save my teeth from acidity. It has natural co-factors. The usual co-factors vitamin companies use such as bioflavinoids, can be hard to assimilate. I prefer this loose power. The vitamin C capsules this company sells are not good. I make my own.

http://www.vitacost....u-mega-c-powder

Edited by Luminosity, 11 January 2013 - 04:30 AM.

[ironfistx]

Hmm. I'm not sure what type of collagen Fortigel is. Whatever kind it is, they did say it regrew cartilage in their studies (the studies were funded by the manufacturer so who knows). Maybe I will add some Type II collagen, too. Is it possible to overdose on collagen?

Question: Why do many Type II collagen supplements also contain chondroitin? I guess if I start taking one of those I can reduce the dose of chondroitin I take, then.

The type of MSM you posted (OptiMSM) is the same that I am using, except that's a bulk powder and mine is powder in capsules.

Edited by ironfistx, 11 January 2013 - 04:55 AM.

[Luminosity]

Type II collagen naturally contains chondroitin as oranges contain Vitamin C. Some of the listed other ingredients are also natural constituents of the collagen. If your body is getting the full benefit of the other chondroitin you are taking than good, but that might or might not be true. If it comes from crab shells, for instance, not everyone can break that down. It we could, we'd probably eat crab shells.

You won't "OD" on collagen but it could disagree with you or be wasted if you took too much. I would listen to your body.

I personally could not absorb MSM in pill form. I have to take it dissolved in water. It gave me gas, bloating, sluggishness, etc, when taken in pill form. Liquids tend to be the most absorbable form of supplements. Middle-aged or older people with joint issues may not have strong digestion. OptiMSM is the best. Source Naturals breaks theirs down into a finer powder that dissolves better. If you have plain MSM in capsules, you can dissolve the contents in water. You can even dissolve the whole contents in an empty jar as I have discussed elsewhere. Leave it out at room temperature and stir until dissolved. Then keep in the frig.

I take my liquid meds at room temperature. If refrigerated, I leave that dose out until it reaches room temperature. Chinese medicine frowns on cold liquids in our bodies. I get three ounce medicine cups from the supermarket where the disposable plastic cups are for this purpose.

Edited by Luminosity, 11 January 2013 - 05:17 AM.

[ironfistx]

What about hyaluronic acid? Is that a helpful joint supplement? It's one that I keep seeing mentioned in discussions.

[Luminosity]

Yes, and it's also a component of type II collagen:

Swanson's:
Kolla 2® Unhydrolyzed ChickenSternal Type II Collagen Typical Analysis: 3 grams * Chondroitin Sulfate 540 mg * Hyaluronic Acid 300 mg * Glucosamine 150 mg *



These are within the collagen. They are digestible and absorbable and not rancid, from this source.

Edited by Luminosity, 11 January 2013 - 05:22 AM.

[ironfistx]

None of these supplements are things that if you take too much your body stops producing it on its own, are they?

[Logic]

DACC-7 gene activation may restart cartilage growth.
http://www.abc.net.a...ies/s777334.htm

Interesting!
Any ideas on activating DACC-7?

[daouda]

Logic, this is exciting news!

Unrelated :
Another low molecular weight hydrolyzed collagen product geared at cartilage rebuilding is ARTHRED, it is much cheaper than fortigel (look for the source naturals product) and probably the same thing (a more hydrolized collagen vs plain gelatin). Its also a german product and pretty old (its the collagen in the product "joint vibrance")

Edited by daouda, 12 January 2013 - 03:11 PM.

[ironfistx]

Assuming Fortigel does what it says, do you think increasing the dose would make a difference? Instead of taking 10g a day (which is supposedly what the people who renegerated cartilage in the studies took), take 20g or 30g a day?

According to some literature, they said joint relief can start in 3 months. Does it take collagen that long to get into the joints? The studies done with the MRIs had them taken at 24 and 48 weeks (roughly 5.5 and 11 months).

Also, does anyone have any idea if this would be best taken on an empty stomach or with food? I've been taking it in the morning when I first wake up so that's on an empty stomach. Does it matter, though? What about right before bed so it's available during the sleep for all the repairing stuff your body does while you're asleep?

Edited by ironfistx, 12 January 2013 - 04:47 PM.

[niner]

In osteoarthritis the cartilage structure becomes abnormal over time; the number of chondrocytes (cartilage cells) declines, cartilage extracellular matrix is lost, the composition of the matrix becomes abnormal, and there is pathologic matrix calcification. Osteoarthritis is another disease of aging in which the mitochondria are implicated. There is research evidence that these processes are caused or facilitated by altered mitochondrial respiratory activity in chondrocytes resulting in abnormal ATP energy production, that is, by mitochondria that have become de-energized.

Therefore, elements of the mitochondrial DNA mutation firewall also become part of the firewall against osteoarthritis. Glucosamine supplementation is another element of the anti-osteoarthritis firewall. There is limited clinical evidence that this substance can not only relieve joint pain due to osteoarthritis but also contribute to rebuilding cellular matrix. Its exact mode of operation is not well understood though it is known to affect matrix gene expression in chondrocytes. Finally, in both osteoarthritis and arthritis there is evidence that tumor necrosis factor alpha (TNFalpha) inhibits matrix synthesis by chondrocytes, particularly during inflammation. The anti-inflammatory firewall is therefore also highly relevant in warding off osteoarthritis. Several of the substances in this firewall, including curcumin, resveratrol and other flavinoids, serve to inhibit the expression of TNFalpha.
http://www.vincegiul...ngfirewalls.htm

Perhaps this is why C60oo lessens joint pain?

To the extent that mitochondrial dysfunction contributes to cartilage loss, c60oo seems like a good bet. We've also seen some effects suggesting that c60oo has a stem cell mobilizing activity. Mitochondria play a role in stem cell differentiation, and we hypothesize that c60 helps there, perhaps by rescuing differentiations that would otherwise have failed. If ROS-mediated chronic inflammation is a player in joint destruction, as in RA, then that would be a third situation for which c60oo would be a candidate.

[ironfistx]

Wait, C60oo? OO = olive oil?

edit - n/m, found the thread.

Edited by ironfistx, 12 January 2013 - 06:36 PM.

[BDon]

I heard CoQ-10 can actually help... Cissus.. another.. Also I hear Wobenzym-N can help but all just word of mouth..

What about Growth Hormone? I think this is the best way.


Also TB-400/500

[daouda]

Wobenzym has an antiinflammatory action, can help with symptoms but will do nothing for cartilage regrowth. HGH can help but systemically wont lead to dramatic results, intraarticular is key. I thkin you mean TB4 (thymosin beta 4) or TB-500. Helps with stem stell migration and differentiation, also promotes angiogenesis, but nothing hints at it being truely helpful for cartilage regrowth with the usual doses used by bodybuilders.

[Luminosity]

I don't believe that your body would decrease collagen production because you are taking a lot of it.

Assuming Fortigel does what it says, do you think increasing the dose would make a difference? Instead of taking 10g a day (which is supposedly what the people who renegerated cartilage in the studies took), take 20g or 30g a day?

Observe and listen to your body to get the right dose. I take four times as much MSM as recommended, but my body seems to need it. I take twelve capsules of the Swanson's type II collagen a day. More doesn't seem to help. I take four Extra-Strength StimTeins a day. One regular strength is supposed to be a normal dose but a guy who works there gives six a day to a medium sized dog.


According to some literature, they said joint relief can start in 3 months. Does it take collagen that long to get into the joints? The studies done with the MRIs had them taken at 24 and 48 weeks (roughly 5.5 and 11 months).

Collagen will probably get into your joints within days. It will rebuild very slowly so you may not feel significantly better for a while and may need to baby that area for a long time, if not forever. If you take the right supplements for you and do what you can to bring the inflammation down, you may feel relief in days or weeks.




Also, does anyone have any idea if this would be best taken on an empty stomach or with food? I've been taking it in the morning when I first wake up so that's on an empty stomach. Does it matter, though? What about right before bed so it's available during the sleep for all the repairing stuff your body does while you're asleep?

For me, both types of collagen were best taken on an empty stomach with vitamin C. I would not take this too close to bedtime because your body needs to break it down. It's best not to be digesting things while you sleep.

I don't know if I mentioned it earlier but Cola de Caballo by Amazon Therapeutics is a good source of organic silica. I get it from Vitacost. That might help. Vitamins D and K might help. I take Source Naturals D3 capsules with food containing oil or fat. I take Future Biotics Triple Play Vitamin K bought from Swansons. I take it with a meal containing a cooked green vegetable, if possible. Personally, I'm finding that things that help bones are also helping cartilage and things that hurt bones are also hurting cartilage.