517 replies to this topic

[MachineGhostX]

 

My crude understanding of the spirit world doesn't have an explanation for a tiny change in gravity affecting an herbal extract.  Employing my simplistic mechanistic science, I would probably ask how we know this effect to be the case.  Has the exact same herbal formula been created under different moons and compared in a blinded fashion?  Does approaching it with an impure questioning mind mess up the magic?  What about herbals that are prepared on mountains versus at sea level?  The gravity is different...

 

The "tiny" change in gravity is not so tiny when you look at the tides.  A soaking jar is nearly all liquid solvent (alcohol+water) less the organic matter.  Think of the tug and pull of the moon's gravity on the soaking jar as it passes by overhead every day and night; as it gets and closer closer to the Earth (full moon) the moon's tug and pull will be it its strongest before waning.  There's really nothing mystical about this process.  Now whether someone would go to the trouble of during a study and whether the effect would pass statistical significance seems like overkill when personal experiment is a lot less costly.

 

Edited by MachineGhostX, 20 August 2014 - 10:08 PM.

[MachineGhostX]

 

 

A bigger question is...  is beef protein isolate at all comparable to non-hydrolyzed collagen or gelatin in function?

Collagen has a very specific and unusual amino acid composition, compared to normal proteins, so I don't think they are really comparable.

 

 

If that's so, then that explains why I haven't had any beneficial joint effects from beef protein isolate, despite taking it for several years.  I've recently added Type I and III hydrolyzed collagen to my regime and wondered if that was superfluous.  Not sure if I'm getting skin reactions and headaches from it or not, yet.

 

When I had my TMJ (osteoarthritis) several years ago, along with a splint, I healed it up over a period of 18 months using Doctor's Best Glucosamine+Chondroitin+MSM daily and a bottle or two of avocado unsaponifiables (Cochrane Review) on top of my usual regime.  Unfortunately, I find both supplements to be relatively expensive and unwiedly in the amount of capsules required (I'm out of pill cup space!), so I've not resumed that exact regime now that my joints are acting up again from weight lifting.  Mysteriously, it seems I can't handle MSM now as it gives me headaches.

[MachineGhostX]

 

Glucosamine sulfate is 80% glucosamine; HCL is 99% glucosamine.  As usual, the supplement companies trick you by listing 1500mg, but you're not getting 1500mg used in the studies when it is sulfate.

 

I don't see why this would be the case.  a sulfate anion is 96 g/m, and chloride is 35 g/m.  Because sulfate has a minus two charge, you get two glucosamine molecules for each sulfate.  With chloride, there is one glucosamine per chloride.  Thus the percentage of the total weight that is glucosamine is pretty similar in the two; slightly more with chloride, but not 20% more, unless I'm missing something, like vastly different numbers of waters of hydration or some necessary excipient that's needed with sulfate but not chloride.  I suspect those aren't the case.  By my calculations, I get:

 

sulfate:  79% glucosamine

chloride: 84% glucosamine.

 

So chloride is a little better, but I doubt it's enough to matter.

 

Whoops, my mistake.  It's technically sulfate 2KCL not sulfate.  But perhaps they are able to do higher purity processing on the HCL version: http://greenextract....loride-99-.html

[niner]

 

 

My crude understanding of the spirit world doesn't have an explanation for a tiny change in gravity affecting an herbal extract.  Employing my simplistic mechanistic science, I would probably ask how we know this effect to be the case.  Has the exact same herbal formula been created under different moons and compared in a blinded fashion?  Does approaching it with an impure questioning mind mess up the magic?  What about herbals that are prepared on mountains versus at sea level?  The gravity is different...

 

The "tiny" change in gravity is not so tiny when you look at the tides.  A soaking jar is nearly all liquid solvent (alcohol+water) less the organic matter.  Think of the tug and pull of the moon's gravity on the soaking jar as it passes by overhead every day and night; as it gets and closer closer to the Earth (new moon) the moon's tug and pull will be it its strongest before waning.  There's really nothing mystical about this process.

 

The force of gravity is utterly inconsequential when dealing with something as light as a molecule.  The energy that they have as a result of thermal motion is orders of magnitude greater than the force of gravity.  That's why it shouldn't matter if the gravitational field that they are in changes by a few hundredths of a percent.  When you are dealing with the mass of an entire ocean, then yeah, that's more noticeable.  It's only in an ultracentrifuge, where the centrifugal force is over a million times that of gravity, that you can have differential impacts on things as small as molecules, and even then the effects are tiny.

 

Since I'm getting all scientific here, let me again ask, has this alleged gravitational effect on herbal preparations been tested in a legitimate fashion, isolating all other variables?  I'll bet not.

Edited by niner, 20 August 2014 - 10:18 PM.

[MachineGhostX]

This is what is unique about kolaGen II-xs that is in Swanson's collagen:

 

BACKGROUND OF THE INVENTION

This invention is directed to creating a collagen mixture and more specifically, without limitation, creating a collagen mixture of unhydrolyzed eggshell membrane with LOS with Avian collagen.

Methods for producing collagen are known in the art. Such collagen is used for many things such as the healing of wounds, the production of skin creams and shampoo, the treatment of osteoarthritis and osteoporosis, and as an additive for human and pet food. While useful, the process is expensive, complicated, involving many steps, and requires harsh chemicals and inorganics which can damage unique properties. Accordingly, a method and mixture is needed in the art that addresses these deficiencies.

An objective of the present invention is to combine Type I, V, and X collagen with Type II collagen.

Another objective of the present invention is to provide a method of making unhydrolyzed eggshell membrane collagen with LOS that involves fewer steps and is unde-natured.

A still further objective of the present invention is to provide a method of producing Avian collagen Type II with a greater molecular weight.

These and other objectives will be apparent to one of ordinary skill in the art based upon the following written description, drawings, and claims.

SUMMARY OF THE INVENTION

A collagen mixture includes a portion of unhydrolyzed eggshell membrane collagen and a portion of Avian collagen. The method of making the eggshell membrane collagen includes separating a membrane from an eggshell, drying the membrane, and pulverizing the membrane into a powder. The method of making the Avian collagen includes adding an enzyme mixture to a thawed Avian cartilage to break the cartilage down into liquid form, heating the liquid cartilage to form a layer of liquid digest, raising the pH level of the liquid digest, heating the raised pH level liquid digest to form a partial solid content, and spray drying the partial solid content.

 

And a study:

 

Supplementation with kollaGen II-xs™ produced a significant treatment response at seven days for flexibility(

33.3% increase; P = 0.035) and at 60 days for general pain (91.6% reduction; P = 0.005), flexibility (68.5% increase; P = 0.004) and range of motion associated pain (76.1% reduction; P = 0.011). The substantial treatment response continued through 60 days for pain (78.8% reduction; P = 0.001). There were no adverse events reported during the study and the treatment was reported to be well tolerated by study participants.

http://www.prlog.org...-disorders.html

Edited by MachineGhostX, 20 August 2014 - 11:21 PM.

[MachineGhostX]

The force of gravity is utterly inconsequential when dealing with something as light as a molecule.  The energy that they have as a result of thermal motion is orders of magnitude greater than the force of gravity.  That's why it shouldn't matter if the gravitational field that they are in changes by a few hundredths of a percent.  When you are dealing with the mass of an entire ocean, then yeah, that's more noticeable.  It's only in an ultracentrifuge, where the centrifugal force is over a million times that of gravity, that you can have differential impacts on things as small as molecules, and even then the effects are tiny.

 

Since I'm getting all scientific here, let me again ask, has this alleged gravitational effect on herbal preparations been tested in a legitimate fashion, isolating all other variables?  I'll bet not.

 

 

Seriously doubt it.  Why don't you be the first to do so and publish the results?  I'm content with the anecdotal and historical evidence.  It's not as if there is a big risk in being wrong.   A good control would be Nature's Answer 1:1 herb to menstrum ratio alcohol extracts which are a rarity in an industry so full of scams and fairy dusting.  That's what I rely on now rather than rolling my own anymore.

[hav]

 

The force of gravity is utterly inconsequential when dealing with something as light as a molecule.  The energy that they have as a result of thermal motion is orders of magnitude greater than the force of gravity.  That's why it shouldn't matter if the gravitational field that they are in changes by a few hundredths of a percent.  When you are dealing with the mass of an entire ocean, then yeah, that's more noticeable.  It's only in an ultracentrifuge, where the centrifugal force is over a million times that of gravity, that you can have differential impacts on things as small as molecules, and even then the effects are tiny.

 

Since I'm getting all scientific here, let me again ask, has this alleged gravitational effect on herbal preparations been tested in a legitimate fashion, isolating all other variables?  I'll bet not.

 

 

Seriously doubt it.  Why don't you be the first to do so and publish the results?  I'm content with the anecdotal and historical evidence.  It's not as if there is a big risk in being wrong.   A good control would be Nature's Answer 1:1 herb to menstrum ratio alcohol extracts which are a rarity in an industry so full of scams and fairy dusting.  That's what I rely on now rather than rolling my own anymore.

 

 

Scientific study long ago validated Einstein's General Theory of Relatively which predicted that even the massive gravitational field variance of the Sun would produce only barely measurable effects at the molecular and sub-atomic level and is the basis for which Gravity is classified as the weakest fundamental force in nature.  But maybe if the herbs were prepared in the vicinity of an event horizon....
 

Howard

[Luminosity]

MachineGhost:

 

I found UC II to be useless.  I tried most of the type II collagens out there and found the one I recommend to be best, taken the way I recommend.  Some people have been lucky enough to be able to use cheaper Great Lakes types I and III collagen for similar problems, but that isn't everyone. I would read my blog post on these types of supplements and try them the way I recommend.  The dosage would vary and the number and scope of the final supplement regimen would vary but I think that is a good starting place.  I'd start with one supplement and work your way up.  If  you take MSM the way I recommend, it might not give you a headache.

 

I'm not sure the type of collagen I recommend is denatured.  I thought it wasn't.  

 

http://www.longecity...row-cartilage/ 

 

Whoever felt the need to tell me you weren't sure about my last post, I am not a fan of the "nuanced feedback system" or CrapStorm Twenty-Fourteen, as I call it.  I try my best to contribute here.  I've spent many hours.  Every post or every action can't please everyone.  If we get to the point where contributors get less positive feedback than other [usually negative] feedback, we will lose contributors.  That feedback was very mild, although other than positive.  In general, invited by CrapStorm Twenty-Fourteen, people convey their passing notions, anonymously when they would have remained silent.  In total, since CrapStorm, I get more negative feedback than positive.  I feel that we should go back to the old system where you posted under your own name when you felt you had something that needed to be said.  English is a nuanced feedback system.    

Edited by Luminosity, 21 August 2014 - 06:14 AM.

[MachineGhostX]

 

Howard

 

Scientific study long ago validated Einstein's General Theory of Relatively which predicted that even the massive gravitational field variance of the Sun would produce only barely measurable effects at the molecular and sub-atomic level and is the basis for which Gravity is classified as the weakest fundamental force in nature.  But maybe if the herbs were prepared in the vicinity of an event horizon....

 

I agree with you, so I'm going to do an experiment and see if its false or not.  Dr. Schulze spouts off a lot of vegan whacko B.S. so it wouldn't surprise me at all.

[MachineGhostX]

MachineGhost:

 

I found UC II to be useless.  I tried most of the type II collagens out there and found the one I recommend to be best, taken the way I recommend.  Some people have been lucky enough to be able to use cheaper Great Lakes types I and III collagen for similar problems, but that isn't everyone. I would read my blog post on these types of supplements and try them the way I recommend.  The dosage would vary and the number and scope of the final supplement regimen would vary but I think that is a good starting place.  I'd start with one supplement and work your way up.  If  you take MSM the way I recommend, it might not give you a headache.

 

I'm not sure the type of collagen I recommend is denatured.  I thought it wasn't.  

 

http://www.longecity...row-cartilage/ 

 

My understanding is the egg membrane is undenatured and the sternum is cold processed, but then the sternum is eventually denatured to improve the bioavailability of the glucosamine, chondroitin and hyaluronic acid.  That actually makes a lot of sense and why this collagen seems so superior to all the others that I've looked at.  I'm not real familiar with the biochemical mechanisms of egg membrane.  And it would be nice to know the actual percentage of the sternum ingredients.

 

So close, yet so far: http://www.vitacost....-240-capsules-1

 

I'm starting to wonder if Cosamin has a patent on 99% Glucosamine HCL combined with low molecular weight Chondroitin rather than just individually branded ingredients.  No one seems to be able to make an inexpensive copycat.  I guess 80% glucosamine isn't that bad if its increased in qty to make it 1500mg net.  I like the potassium as a bonus too.  Jarrow uses 75% glucosamine which ups the potassium to 500mg per serving.

 

EDIT: It appears that Doctor's Best allegedly uses stabilized glucosamine.  That is the original form used 15+ years ago in the studies that demonstrated glucosamine efficacy.  This also explains why the overpriced glucosamine I get for free as an quarterly insurance benefit appears to do absolutely nothing,  The negative is, like almost all supplements, Doctor's Best doesn't contain low molecular weight chondroitin which is really expensive for top of the line: https://www.swansonv...droitin-60-tabs

 

I would now wager that the "triple threat" in the kollaGen sternum is "naturally stabilized".  Great find, Lumin!

 

Egg Membrane: http://www.certified...lagen_I_V_X.php

Sternum: http://www.certified...llagen_IIxs.php

 

Edited by MachineGhostX, 23 August 2014 - 02:11 AM.

[gt35r]

I am bit confused by why would we think that eating collagen of any type would results in improved ECM in any part of the body? Ingested Collagen will under go hydrolysis when ingested. 

[Globespy]

Are you saying that the Swanson product is a good one to take for cartilage regeneration?
I have been using Great Lakes Hydrolyzed, which has types 1,2 and 3... But seems that it's not highly thought of?
Thanks.

MachineGhost:

I found UC II to be useless. I tried most of the type II collagens out there and found the one I recommend to be best, taken the way I recommend. Some people have been lucky enough to be able to use cheaper Great Lakes types I and III collagen for similar problems, but that isn't everyone. I would read my blog post on these types of supplements and try them the way I recommend. The dosage would vary and the number and scope of the final supplement regimen would vary but I think that is a good starting place. I'd start with one supplement and work your way up. If you take MSM the way I recommend, it might not give you a headache.

I'm not sure the type of collagen I recommend is denatured. I thought it wasn't.

http://www.longecity...row-cartilage/

My understanding is the egg membrane is undenatured and the sternum is cold processed, but then the sternum is eventually denatured to improve the bioavailability of the glucosamine, chondroitin and hyaluronic acid. That actually makes a lot of sense and why this collagen seems so superior to all the others that I've looked at. I'm not real familiar with the biochemical mechanisms of egg membrane. And it would be nice to know the actual percentage of the sternum ingredients.

So close, yet so far: http://www.vitacost....-240-capsules-1

I'm starting to wonder if Cosamin has a patent on 99% Glucosamine HCL combined with low molecular weight Chondroitin rather than just individually branded ingredients. No one seems to be able to make an inexpensive copycat. I guess 80% glucosamine isn't that bad if its increased in qty to make it 1500mg net. I like the potassium as a bonus too. Jarrow uses 75% glucosamine which ups the potassium to 500mg per serving.

EDIT: It appears that Doctor's Best allegedly uses stabilized glucosamine. That is the original form used 15+ years ago in the studies that demonstrated glucosamine efficacy. This also explains why the overpriced glucosamine I get for free as an quarterly insurance benefit appears to do absolutely nothing, The negative is, like almost all supplements, Doctor's Best doesn't contain low molecular weight chondroitin which is really expensive for top of the line: https://www.swansonv...droitin-60-tabs

I would now wager that the "triple threat" in the kollaGen sternum is "naturally stabilized". Great find, Lumin!

Egg Membrane: http://www.certified...lagen_I_V_X.php
Sternum: http://www.certified...llagen_IIxs.php

[Luminosity]

Unfortunately, I've stopped contributing to this thread and have taken my recommended supplement regimen offline due to the site's new, anonymous "press a button" "feedback system."  I've been too much negative feedback on my entries on this thread. All of it has been irrational, and possibly put there by a drug company shill. This makes me feel like not contributing.

If you want to know how I went from a wheelchair to walking using supplements, let the site administrators know that Caliban's "feedback system" should to be scrapped and replaced with the commonsense feedback system we used to have, that is, you just post comments as posts under your own name.

You can message the Board of Directors of the site. Their screen names are s123, Caliban, Mind, Shepard, Shannon Vyff, and rwac. You can also post comments here:

http://www.longecity...-post-feedback/

 

Regretfully, I cannot answer questions privately about this either until the "nuanced feedback system" is scrapped.  

 

This thread has drawn 68,000 views.  

 

Edited by Luminosity, 23 August 2014 - 04:36 AM.

[Gerrans]

I have found this thread very useful and your recommendations highly informative. I would like to thank you for that, but I feel you are being a bit thin-skinned now. This is the internet, not the knitting circle. We all get our heads bitten off from time to time, just ignore it.

[MachineGhostX]

Confusion may be in conflating digestion with hydrolyzation.  Hydrolyzation -- when its not just marketing fiction slapped on supplements -- targets a specific molecular weight in daltons to achieve optimal bioavailability for whatever substance in question.  General digestion just denatures (breaks down) protein to di- and tri- peptides and free in a relatively short time period with no regard for the optimal molecular weight and a large amount of protein ingested is simply not absorbed anyway (don't recall why).

 

One of the many ways supplement companies deceive consumers is by claiming hydrolyzed, but not indicating the average molecular weight.  It even applies to kollaGen II-xs, but I imagine it is for competitive reasons since it is a branded ingredient.  How many joint supplements has anyone personally seen that listed the average molecular weight of chondroitin which is naturally too large to be bioavailable?  Companies do not like to indicate that they're selling an inferior product.  This kind of "deception by withholding facts" white lie seems to be endemic in the protein isolate, fish oil and joint sub-industries.

 

I'm not sure why Lumin is suddenly freaking out about the juvenile "peer pressure" feedback system.  Lumin, just ignore the jokers.  There's one in every bar.

 

For cartilage, Type 2 is the primary collagen.  The other twenty eight types are wasted space/money in proporition to how much Type 2 there is in a serving.  If 90% of collagen in a mammal is Type 1, well its likely a general collagen supplement is 90% Type 1.  Not that useful for cartilage, aye?

 

Edited by MachineGhostX, 23 August 2014 - 01:30 PM.

[Werper]

Really luminosity,  If your formula really works that well that it allowed you to get out of a wheelchair- Isn't it kind of absurd to pull the post over a silly rating system where a couple of unknown clowns down rated you.  Are we not a little bigger than this?

[MachineGhostX]

 

Glucosamine is an amino monosaccharide and a natural constituent of glycosaminoglycans in articular cartilage. When administered exogenously, it is used for the treatment of osteoarthritis as a prescription drug or a dietary supplement. The latter use is mainly supported by its perception as a cartilage building block, but it actually exerts specific pharmacologic effects, mainly decreasing interleukin 1-induced gene expression by inhibiting the cytokine intracellular signaling cascade in general and nuclear factor-kappa B (NF-kB) activation in particular. As a whole, the use of glucosamine in the management of osteoarthritis is supported by the clinical trials performed with the original prescription product, that is, crystalline glucosamine sulfate. This is the stabilized form of glucosamine sulfate, while other formulations or different glucosamine salts (e.g. hydrochloride) have never been shown to be effective. In particular, long-term pivotal trials of crystalline glucosamine sulfate 1500 mg once daily have shown significant and clinically relevant improvement of pain and function limitation (symptom-modifying effect) in knee osteoarthritis. Continuous administration for up to 3 years resulted in significant reduction in the progression of joint structure changes compared with placebo as assessed by measuring radiologic joint space narrowing (structure-modifying effect). The two effects combined may suggest a disease-modifying effect that was postulated based on an observed decrease in the risk of undergoing total joint replacement in the follow up of patients receiving the product for at least 12 months in the pivotal trials. The safety of the drug was good in clinical trials and in the postmarketing surveillance. Crystalline glucosamine sulfate 1500 mg once daily is therefore recommended in the majority of clinical practice guidelines and was found to be cost effective in pharmacoeconomic analyses. Compared with other glucosamine formulations, salts, or dosage forms, the prescription product achieves higher plasma and synovial fluid concentrations that are above the threshold for a pharmacologically relevant effect, and may therefore justify its distinct therapeutic characteristics.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22850875

Edited by MachineGhostX, 23 August 2014 - 03:57 PM.

[Globespy]

Well said. Your protocol is of far more value to the greater good than some pedantic and subjective post.
The greats in the past shunned many opinions,and the world thanks them for that.
Please reconsider.

Really luminosity, If your formula really works that well that it allowed you to get out of a wheelchair- Isn't it kind of absurd to pull the post over a silly rating system where a couple of unknown clowns down rated you. Are we not a little bigger than this?

[MachineGhostX]

I'm not a fan of spending hours cooking and stinking up the house just to eat bone broths.  So based on this topic so far, this is the joint stack I'm adding to my regime:

 

Doctor's Best Collagen Type I and III (6.6g)
Swanson Chicken Sternum Type II (3g)
Source Naturals MSM (7.8g)

Solaray Two-Stage Time Release Vitamin C (1g)

 

I plan to mix the first three together in rehydration water upon arising and about 40 minutes before breakfast.  I will experiment and see if I can get away with just one daily dose instead of half-dosing twice daily.

 

OptiMSM can be bought for less in bulk from msm-msm.com but I opted initially for the convenience of the fine grind with Source Naturals and the ability to return it.  Check out the FAQ at that site for directions on how to titrate the dose of MSM.

 

Where I respectfully disagree with Lumin is in the use of ascorbyl palmitate which is broken down into its two components in the stomach, i.e. it is not a liposome and it does not have enhanced bioavailability -- it is pure marketing fiction.  Also, the average diet supposedly provides 30-50mg of silicon a day whereas the AI is 1-2mg, so there doesn't seem to be any point in supplementing with huge doses of silicon from bamboo.  While the TUL looks to be a whopping 700mg/day, we are not silicon-based life forms yet.    Interestingly, silicon doesn't seem to be considered a toxic or an essential element: http://www.doctorsda...ory.asp?id=1270

 

I will continue to take the 1500mg of the glucosamine I get as an quarterly OTC benefit at bedtime to induce autophagy.

 

Edited by MachineGhostX, 24 August 2014 - 01:46 PM.

[niner]

  Interestingly, silicon doesn't seem to be considered a toxic or an essential element: http://www.doctorsda...ory.asp?id=1270

 

Just because some analytical lab doesn't say anything about it in their report doesn't mean it's not essential.  The essentiality of silicon has been know for forty years.

[Globespy]

Thanks MachineGhostX (very cool name) for your input. I didn't realize the importance of Vit C in collagen supplementation. Do you empty the powder out of the Vit C capsules to mix with your collagen in solution? I'm wary of claims made on capsule release systems, and I try to avoid capsules in favor of powders in solution. I'm not a fan of taking handfuls of pills!
Can I ask why the likes of Great Lakes Hydrolyzed bulk powder (types 1, 2 & 3) isn't as good a choice taken 4-6g daily?
I have a ton of this, and it's so easy to add to my morning protein shake, including several other powder supplements and nootropics and would be a shame to ditch it. But if it's not effective then I'll bite the bullet and buy another type - it won't be the first time I've picked the wrong product!

Edited by Globespy, 24 August 2014 - 10:33 PM.

[MachineGhostX]

Thanks MachineGhostX (very cool name) for your input. I didn't realize the importance of Vit C in collagen supplementation. Do you empty the powder out of the Vit C capsules to mix with your collagen in solution? I'm wary of claims made on capsule release systems, and I try to avoid capsules in favor of powders in solution. I'm not a fan of taking handfuls of pills!
Can I ask why the likes of Great Lakes Hydrolyzed bulk powder (types 1, 2 & 3) isn't as good a choice taken 4-6g daily?
I have a ton of this, and it's so easy to add to my morning protein shake, including several other powder supplements and nootropics and would be a shame to ditch it. But if it's not effective then I'll bite the bullet and buy another type - it won't be the first time I've picked the wrong product!

 

No, I plan to swallon the capsule (its part of my wakeup cup) as the acid would eat away at teeth enamel over time.  Besides, the capsule may be key to the time release.  I'm wary of all the enhanced bioavailability claims for C too which is why I went with a time release form after looking at impartial bioavailablity and retention studies.  Time release will definitely keep serum C levels relatively higher than one off, so long as you take at least two doses a day to keep the momentum going (I do wakeup and bedtime).  I don't know about retention ability with the liposomal form.  I'm going to experiment with that soon.

 

As I mentioned previously, 90% of the collagen in the body is Type I and III.**  Type II is critical for cartilage growth and it has to be processed and prepared properly from an optimal animal source (i.e. kollaGen II-xs).  So since Great Lakes is "natural" and from cow or pig, it likely means they don't do anything to increase the Type II content which has to compete with all the other 25 collagen types in the remaining 10%.  I prefer the Type II to be quantified and at an efficacious dose and in the correct form.  You only get one shot at this, so why screw around?  I went with Doctor's Best due to the quantification, mixability, relatively low hydrolyzed bitter taste and the anecdotal evidence of it working for what Type I and III are good for (not cartilage).  So it wouldn't be a mistake to add the Swanson Type II to the Great Lakes.

 

Also, although convenient, you may not want to add hydrolyzed collagen to a protein shake as it may be denatured even further (into free form amino acids?) by digestive enzymes.  Part of what makes hydrolyzed collagen useful is that the intact peptides are deposited directly into the joints.

 

** Just realized I'm making an assumption that this holds true for all mammals which may not be the case.

 

Lastly, I find it very interesting and very disturbing that cortisol stimulates degradation of skin collagen into amino acids: http://www.sciencedi...006295268901822

This seems highly incompatible with CR, IF and high intensity exercise.   What to do...

 

Edited by MachineGhostX, 25 August 2014 - 05:19 PM.

[Globespy]

MachineGhostX - thanks for the reply, I'll buy the type 2.
Not sure I follow your statement about but adding to the protein shake? I'm assuming you mean the collagen can be impacted by the protein powder mix? If not, how will mixing with water only make any difference to the digestive enzymes in the stomach?

[pamojja]

 

Glucosamine sulfate is 80% glucosamine; HCL is 99% glucosamine.  As usual, the supplement companies trick you by listing 1500mg, but you're not getting 1500mg used in the studies when it is sulfate.

 

I don't see why this would be the case.  a sulfate anion is 96 g/m, and chloride is 35 g/m.  Because sulfate has a minus two charge, you get two glucosamine molecules for each sulfate.  With chloride, there is one glucosamine per chloride.  Thus the percentage of the total weight that is glucosamine is pretty similar in the two; slightly more with chloride, but not 20% more, unless I'm missing something, like vastly different numbers of waters of hydration or some necessary excipient that's needed with sulfate but not chloride.  I suspect those aren't the case.  By my calculations, I get:

 

sulfate:  79% glucosamine

chloride: 84% glucosamine.

 

So chloride is a little better, but I doubt it's enough to matter.

 

So there is 21% of sulfate in glucosamine sulfate. Does anyone know how much sulfate is in chondroitin sulfate?
 

Edited by pamojja, 25 August 2014 - 09:50 PM.

[niner]

So there is 21% of sulfate in glucosamine sulfate. Does anyone know how much sulfate is in chondroitin sulfate?

 

In chondroitin sulfate, the sulfate is covalently bound to the chondroitin, so it's an integral part of it.  It doesn't come off and float away in solution like a counterion would.

[gt35r]

Niner, that sulfate can break of, pH permitting.

 

The C-O-S bond is very weak especially when you consider how many electron withdrawing groups its near.

[pamojja]

So there is 21% of sulfate in glucosamine sulfate. Does anyone know how much sulfate is in chondroitin sulfate?

 

In chondroitin sulfate, the sulfate is covalently bound to the chondroitin, so it's an integral part of it.  It doesn't come off and float away in solution like a counterion would.

 

Niner, that sulfate can break of, pH permitting.

 

The C-O-S bond is very weak especially when you consider how many electron withdrawing groups its near.

 

Examine mentions the sulfur content for MSM at 34% per weight. Under Glucosamine the sulfate content isn't given, though they do mention:

 

The Sulfate group may be an independent factor in joint health, although this is currently at the hypothesis stage and not scientifically validated to a large degree

 

I try to figure out how much sulfur these compounds supplement. Probably would have to consider Sulfur-containing amino acids too.

[MachineGhostX]

MachineGhostX - thanks for the reply, I'll buy the type 2.
Not sure I follow your statement about but adding to the protein shake? I'm assuming you mean the collagen can be impacted by the protein powder mix? If not, how will mixing with water only make any difference to the digestive enzymes in the stomach?

 

 

You take things on an empty stomach to avoid digestion; hydrolyzed peptides are already in the form the small intestine prefers for directly absorbing protein (the stomach can do it directly for certain substances too, but I don't think peptides qualify; however its possible the peptides could be shuttled along with the rehydration water, so long as the osmolarity doesn't get too high).  Intact protein is going to cause the entire process of digestion to bootstrap, i.e. cause HCL and proteolytic enzymes to be released from pancreas.

Edited by MachineGhostX, 26 August 2014 - 06:08 PM.

[Globespy]

Why I love this forum... Thanks.

MachineGhostX - thanks for the reply, I'll buy the type 2.
Not sure I follow your statement about but adding to the protein shake? I'm assuming you mean the collagen can be impacted by the protein powder mix? If not, how will mixing with water only make any difference to the digestive enzymes in the stomach?

You take things on an empty stomach to avoid digestion; hydrolyzed peptides are already in the form the small intestine prefers for directly absorbing protein (the stomach can do it directly for certain substances too, but I don't think peptides qualify; however its possible the peptides could be shuttled along with the rehydration water, so long as the osmolarity doesn't get too high). Intact protein is going to cause the entire process of digestion to bootstrap, i.e. cause HCL and proteolytic enzymes to be released from pancreas.

[bgs4669]

Everyone seems to be hell bent on hydrolyzed collagen here, when there is also very good non hydrolyzed forms of collagen also which are also smaller and keeps fully in tact the triple helix.

 

Also most forms of hydrolyzed collagen are from cows and pigs which normally potentially carry diseases whereas collagen from fish have never reported any such problem...

 

Vitamin C also should be taken as naturally as possible to give the natural boosting effects of any collagen. Vitamin C / Ascorbic acid is all the same...it is ascorbic acid! THe rest is marketing...just like plant collagen!

 

And whether you take collagen 1,2 or 3...does not really matter as studies show that collagen is versatile and able to adapt to the specific job at hand from what i have read.

 

Which is why most people taking many collagen supplements seem to get some form of joint pain relief...

 

And depending on the purity / quality and their current diet depends on the outcome.

 

I take brazil nuts, pastachios and flaxseeds, and eat as much fruits and vegetables as i can with my collgen supplements, as well as a good squeeze of lemon and totally knocked out the pain and 10 fold incease in mobility...