517 replies to this topic

[nickdino]

10 grams as that is what the studies showed worked and before bed because that amount of gelatine caused a 6X increase the natural HGH spike that occurs 2 hours after falling asleep, so you get even more bang for your buck.



Wow, is that really true? Who can confirm or refute this?

[Logic]

10 grams as that is what the studies showed worked and before bed because that amount of gelatine caused a 6X increase the natural HGH spike that occurs 2 hours after falling asleep, so you get even more bang for your buck.



Wow, is that really true? Who can confirm or refute this?

Heres the link, but it looks like Ergo.log is down atm?
http://www.ergo-log....gelatinegh.html

[RunnerV]

Lyophilized collagen is around 350 daltons - this is natural collagen with the full triple helix still in tact.

It is from fish skins.

 

It is probably the most absorbable collagen on the market and similar without risk of disease.

 

Also important to note that glucosamine and bladderwrack when taken with a collagen supplement help to eliminate inflammatory causing lectins by binding to them and you automatically flush them out of the system, this is why alot of people will get pain relief - or can still enjoy their toxic foods causing the pain. eg pizza and other gluten / wheat based foods.350

 

Wow, 350 daltons is very very small, I've emailed many companies regarding the molecular weight of their collagens and most of them are between 3000-5000 Daltons, only one company told me their collagen is 1000-3000 Daltons.

[niner]

 

Lyophilized collagen is around 350 daltons - this is natural collagen with the full triple helix still in tact.

It is from fish skins.

 

It is probably the most absorbable collagen on the market and similar without risk of disease.

 

Also important to note that glucosamine and bladderwrack when taken with a collagen supplement help to eliminate inflammatory causing lectins by binding to them and you automatically flush them out of the system, this is why alot of people will get pain relief - or can still enjoy their toxic foods causing the pain. eg pizza and other gluten / wheat based foods.350

 

Wow, 350 daltons is very very small, I've emailed many companies regarding the molecular weight of their collagens and most of them are between 3000-5000 Daltons, only one company told me their collagen is 1000-3000 Daltons.

 

The average amino acid in collagen is about 100 daltons, so 350 daltons is statistically a mixture of tri- and tetra-peptides.   "Lyophilized" means freeze-dried, which would preserve the peptide chain, so should result in MUCH higher molecular weights.  It might be that bgs4669 mean kilodaltons, not daltons.

[niner]

"Logic"   There's a lot of things  you don't understand.  I'm glad store gelatin works for you but you should refrain from advising others because you don't know enough.  

 

ironic.  (pot, kettle, black...)

[Logic]

 

"Logic"   There's a lot of things  you don't understand.  I'm glad store gelatin works for you but you should refrain from advising others because you don't know enough.

 
ironic.  (pot, kettle, black...)

 

Ok; I'll research this further as I'm obviously missing something!?

My reasoning:

• Gelatines is cartilage from all the parts of all the different animals extracted in a way that makes it already partially digested.
• This means that all the collagen types from every source imaginable (not pleasant to do so) is in a form that is easier to further digest. Namely Gelatine.
• Therefore taking gelatine means you get all the types in a more bioavailable form.
• This gives ones body infinite choice in which proteins and peptides it wants to use for whatever repair requires them.
• The previously mentioned supps simply speed up and optimise the body's ability to use said proteins and peptides for whatever needs repairing.

Where is the fault in this.. logic?
A little nudge in the right direction would be nice as I am sick of the normal marketing BS I normally find.

I am really keen to learn more as cartilage seems to be an issue for me when not taking gelatine once or twice a week.

[niner]

Collagen takes a long time to "work", if you're trying to fix cartilage problems.  You might need to use it for 6 months or even a year before really feeling a difference.  Maybe that's one reason why some people think that one kind or another of collagen does or doesn't work.  The amount of hype and misinformation surrounding collagen is impressive.  The makers of BioCell collagen funded a study using their product, which happens to come from type II collagen, but has other things in it.  It is a fine (and pricey) product, but that doesn't mean that other types of collagen don't work.  The differences between the various types of collagens are largely in their tertiary structure, not in the amino acid sequence.  If the body is going to use them, it is going to have to break them down into single amino acids, so the tertiary structure is gone-- it can not matter.  Thus, if there's any functional difference between the types, it's not because of the amino acids, and frankly, I doubt that there is any evidence that one type is better than another, given equivalent degrees of hydrolysis.  The amount of hydrolysis is described by the molecular weight range of the peptides.   Gelatins can be had in various molecular weights from around 20 kdal to a couple hundred kdal.  The body doesn't seem to have much problem digesting Jello... However, if you are really loading up on collagen, the MW probably does make a difference in how well you digest it.  Gelatin and other collagens are poor foods because they have a weird amino acid content and lack some essential AAs, so you can't use them as the sole protein source for long.   The various products found under the term "hydrolyzed collagen" are likely to be more like a few kdal.    It's possible that some people will do better with shorter chains, and others will be fine with longer chains.  There is a possible monkey wrench in the works, in the form of proteoglycans.  Collagens from different sources might have different glycosylation, and this might make a difference.  As I said, I've seen no evidence that type 1 is different than type 2 or 3 in terms of cartilage healing, but I bring up the glycosylation point because it's a conceivable "difference", not because I think it matters.

 

Edit: fixed bug in MW units

Edited by niner, 02 February 2015 - 09:35 PM.

[Logic]

Collagen takes a long time to "work", if you're trying to fix cartilage problems.  You might need to use it for 6 months or even a year before really feeling a difference.  Maybe that's one reason why some people think that one kind or another of collagen does or doesn't work.  The amount of hype and misinformation surrounding collagen is impressive.  The makers of BioCell collagen funded a study using their product, which happens to come from type II collagen, but has other things in it.  It is a fine (and pricey) product, but that doesn't mean that other types of collagen don't work.  The differences between the various types of collagens are largely in their tertiary structure, not in the amino acid sequence.  If the body is going to use them, it is going to have to break them down into single amino acids, so the tertiary structure is gone-- it can not matter.  Thus, if there's any functional difference between the types, it's not because of the amino acids, and frankly, I doubt that there is any evidence that one type is better than another, given equivalent degrees of hydrolysis.  The amount of hydrolysis is described by the molecular weight range of the peptides.   Gelatins can be had in various molecular weights from around 20 kdal to a couple hundred thousand kdal.  The body doesn't seem to have much problem digesting Jello... However, if you are really loading up on collagen, the MW probably does make a difference in how well you digest it.  Gelatin and other collagens are poor foods because they have a weird amino acid content and lack some essential AAs, so you can't use them as the sole protein source for long.   The various products found under the term "hydrolyzed collagen" are likely to be more like a few thousand kdal.    It's possible that some people will do better with shorter chains, and others will be fine with longer chains.  There is a possible monkey wrench in the works, in the form of proteoglycans.  Collagens from different sources might have different glycosylation, and this might make a difference.  As I said, I've seen no evidence that type 1 is different than type 2 or 3 in terms of cartilage healing, but I bring up the glycosylation point because it's a conceivable "difference", not because I think it matters.

 

Thx Niner.

 

Seems the Kettle isn't so black! 

But I will look into Glycosylation.
 

[airplanepeanuts]

If the body is going to use them, it is going to have to break them down into single amino acids, so the tertiary structure is gone-- it can not matter. 

 

If it's just about the amino acids, why not take those? They should be easier to digest. According to wikipedia:

 

 glycine 21%, proline 12%, hydroxyproline 12%, glutamic acid 10%,alanine 9%, arginine 8%, aspartic acid 6%, lysine 4%, serine 4%, leucine 3%, valine 2%, phenylalanine 2%, threonine 2%, isoleucine 1%,hydroxylysine 1%, methionine and histidine <1% and tyrosine <0.5%. 

 

Niner, do you know which of those are essential for cartilage repair? 

[niner]

 

If the body is going to use them, it is going to have to break them down into single amino acids, so the tertiary structure is gone-- it can not matter. 

 

If it's just about the amino acids, why not take those? They should be easier to digest. According to wikipedia:

 

 glycine 21%, proline 12%, hydroxyproline 12%, glutamic acid 10%,alanine 9%, arginine 8%, aspartic acid 6%, lysine 4%, serine 4%, leucine 3%, valine 2%, phenylalanine 2%, threonine 2%, isoleucine 1%,hydroxylysine 1%, methionine and histidine <1% and tyrosine <0.5%. 

 

Niner, do you know which of those are essential for cartilage repair? 

 

I don't know exactly which ones are magic for collagen synthesis.  The most common AAs in proline are non-essential AAs, with the first essential AA in the list being lysine.  We can synthesize all the ones before that, but synthesis is probably not as fast as having a bunch of free amino acids dropped in your lap.  Pro is relatively rare in normal proteins, and hydroxypro is very rare, so those would be my guess as to the important ones.  Free amino acids sometimes have pharmacological effects, so that's a thing to think about. Both pro and hydroxypro are available as individual AAs, and they are not terribly expensive.   The collagen I use is 5 cents/gram, and Swanson has L-Pro for 20 cents/gram. L-Hyp is $0.67/gm, so at least price-wise, it seems like collagen is a win, but it depends on how efficient the proline hydroxylation reaction is, and whether or not you even need L-Hyp.  It also depends on how well absorbed the collagen is.  If it's mostly just food for gut microbes, maybe pro would be better.

[airplanepeanuts]

Recently I read somewhere that  glutathione is orally absorbed so that might be an example where something bigger than a single amino acid  is useful.

My gut feeling is that the benefit of say chicken broth goes beyond just delivering amino acids. 

That might be wrong though and I also have no idea what would be the magic ingredient in the broth

Edited by airplanepeanuts, 02 February 2015 - 11:38 PM.

[Luminosity]

In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities.

In the expert's mind there are few
. . . . . . . .  Shunryu Suzuki

 

Collagen, and other supplements used to regrow connective tissue are very complicated.  Some people get a good result with gelatin, which is cheap and available, but others need to use other things.  Even for those who use gelatin, some need to mail order a particular brand (usually Great Lakes).  Never assume that because something works for you that it will work others.

 

Logic, there's just a lot of life experience you need to have before you speak on this.  Be glad you can use a cheap, available supplement.  Don't assume others can.

 

For those for whom gelatin doesn't work I would, again, read my blog article on regrowing cartilage (and connective tissue, bone and teeth) with supplements.  The link is at the end of this post.    

 

I would start with the Spectrum Naturals MSM Powder and Swanson's Type II Chicken Sternal collagen, taken with the recommended C vitamins, IN THE FORM RECOMMENDED.  Your dosage may vary.  That Type II collagen is whole cartilage and contains natural and absorbable glucosamine, chondroitin and hyluranic acid.  They are part of the cartilage.    

 

Then, if necessary, I would try adding the other recommended supplements one by one until you decide you are good.  In fact, for the most part, adding the supplements one by one is a good idea to see your response.  The exception is vitamin C which you need to take with collagen or MSM to make them work.  

 

Swanson's and Whole Foods have liberal return policies.  

 

There can be other people who like supplements I don't like, like UC II collagen, but I think my blog article is a good place to start.  There are also some things I haven't tried yet, like eggshell membrane.  I haven't tried everything but I HAVE spent THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS on these things.  The supplements named are some of the best, purest, more authentic (there is fraud in the type II collagen business) supplements out there, taken in the most absorbable way.  

 

TRY THE BEST, THEN TRY THE REST.  Then  you will know if your problem is the brand, form, or whatever instead of the supplement itself.  Some other brands of these supplements are basically undigestible for some people, like those made of shellfish shells.  

 

Trying to intellectually comprehend collagen will break your brain and not necessarily help you.  Just follow my lead.  I was in a wheelchair and now I'm walking.

 

http://www.longecity...row-cartilage/     

Edited by Luminosity, 03 February 2015 - 06:49 AM.

[bgs4669]

 

 

Lyophilized collagen is around 350 daltons - this is natural collagen with the full triple helix still in tact.

It is from fish skins.

 

It is probably the most absorbable collagen on the market and similar without risk of disease.

 

Also important to note that glucosamine and bladderwrack when taken with a collagen supplement help to eliminate inflammatory causing lectins by binding to them and you automatically flush them out of the system, this is why alot of people will get pain relief - or can still enjoy their toxic foods causing the pain. eg pizza and other gluten / wheat based foods.350

 

Wow, 350 daltons is very very small, I've emailed many companies regarding the molecular weight of their collagens and most of them are between 3000-5000 Daltons, only one company told me their collagen is 1000-3000 Daltons.

 

The average amino acid in collagen is about 100 daltons, so 350 daltons is statistically a mixture of tri- and tetra-peptides.   "Lyophilized" means freeze-dried, which would preserve the peptide chain, so should result in MUCH higher molecular weights.  It might be that bgs4669 mean kilodaltons, not daltons.

 

 

Yes thanks for the correction 350 kD.

[Logic]

Thx  for the post and blog link Luminosity.
 
Sorry to hear that plain old Gelatine doesn't work for you.
Perhaps you have some gut dysbiosis going on?
Have you tried the prebiotics FOS, GOS, RS and Inulin etc. along with different probiotics to increase butyrate production and hence GDF-11 etc?
Virgin Coconut Oil seems good at killing off nasties like Candida (a NAD+ auxotroph) with people reporting that they 'poop funny' for the 1st couple of days of taking it.

See this for lauric, capric and butyric acid effects on C. Albicans.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC2992994/

http://www.coconutre...he Evidence.htm


The info on Vitamin C is interesting. from Wikipedia:
 

"Synthesis:
First, a three-dimensional stranded structure is assembled, with the amino acids glycine and proline as its principal components. This is not yet collagen but its precursor, procollagen. Procollagen is then modified by the addition of hydroxyl groups to the amino acids proline and lysine. This step is important for later glycosylation and the formation of the triple helix structure of collagen. The hydroxylase enzymes that perform these reactions require Vitamin C as a cofactor, and a deficiency in this vitamin results in impaired collagen synthesis and the resulting disease scurvy[27] These hydroxylation reactions are catalyzed by two different enzymes: prolyl-4-hydroxylase[28] and lysyl-hydroxylase. Vitamin C also serves with them in inducing these reactions. in this service, one molecule of vitamin C is destroyed for each H replaced by OH. [29] The synthesis of collagen occurs inside and outside of the cell..."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collagen

Perhaps adding the "ascorbyl palmitate (fat soluble vitamin C)" to your collagen water mixture got some C attached  to it and readily available for glycosylation and/or other reactions?
I think I have just been lucky in that I take C before bed. I will experiment with adding C to my gelatine and water.

Have you tried supps like Cissus, Horney Goat Weed, Olive leaf extract, astragalus, Ecdysterone as nicely summarised on Ergo. log?
I find that HGW realy works well for me in combination with Gelatine in warm water. (and the inadvertent Ester C?)

I think the take away message is to start experimenting with plain, cheap Gelatine (and Vit C) and then move on to the more expensive collagens you mention if it does not work for you.

[nickdino]

I think the take away message is to start experimenting with plain, cheap Gelatine (and Vit C) and then move on to the more expensive collagens you mention if it does not work for you.

Comment on this plz, add to the recipe or explain what isn't optimal

What if i turn this into a tasty jello dessert thing, use plain gelatine, add one or more sorts of high vit c containing fruits to the mix, use stevia extract if i want to sweeten it any further.

[sthira]

Be thankful you've if regrown damaged cartilege by taking supplements -- collagen or others -- because according to contemporary orthopedics you've accomplished a medical miracle. All cases are different, of course. In my case (torn medial meniscus that prematurely ended my performing career) I've tried what's listed here in a myriad of combos since 2011. And despite many collagen and supplement brands, combinations and purchases (and some earnest magical thinking) we've seen no cartilage regrowth or regeneration in my imaging. So all y'all who've had success -- you're lucky indeed -- and I'm jealous!

Meanwhile, here's a 2009 interview transcript about some cartilage regeneration promises (these promises are more than five years old now...):

http://www.ucsfhealt...d_regeneration/


Interview with Dr. Hubert Kim: Cartilage Repair and Regeneration

Hubert Kim, director of the Center for Cartilage Repair and Regeneration, who explains new treatments for damaged cartilage.

Interview Transcript

Andrew Schorr:
Treating cartilage injuries is one of the most difficult challenges for orthopedic surgeons. We'll hear from Dr. Hubert Kim from UCSF Medical Center in just a minute to learn about exciting research to really turn things around. It's all coming up next on Patient Power.

Hello and welcome to Patient Power sponsored by UCSF Medical Center. I'm Andrew Schorr. If you are injured, you have great gratitude for the trauma team and the trauma surgeon and other specialists who may come into play in putting you back together.

You think of bones and tendons and joints being put back together. One natty problem for orthopedic surgeons has been cartilage, having that be as good as new. Now, we're not quite there yet, but we're getting much closer, and Dr. Hubert Kim has been helping lead the way with a wonderful team at UCSF Medical Center. Dr. Kim is director of the UCSF Cartilage Repair and Regeneration Center, and it's part of a whole effort by the Department of Orthopedic Surgery to make a difference in a key area of orthopedics.

Challenges in Repairing Damaged Cartilage

Andrew Schorr:
Dr. Kim, thank you so much for being with us. Tell us why regrowing cartilage, or even preventing the death of cartilage cells when somebody has had an injury, has been such a long-term problem that we haven't been able to solve in the past.

Dr. Hubert Kim:
Well, I think cartilage is a very interesting tissue, but what makes it interesting sometimes works against the body's efforts to repair injuries. Cartilage basically does not heal, and there are other tissues you mentioned like bone and tendons, and they do have a good healing potential but not cartilage. It becomes really critical to in the first place maybe limit the amount of cartilage loss that occurs after an injury, and then to overcome some of the challenges that face us when we're dealing with the cartilage repair strategies.

Andrew Schorr:
Let's talk about a specific situation that someone might face. First of all when I think of cartilage maybe because it's summertime as we do this, and I'm a big baseball fan, I think of cartilage around baseball players or football players. Often you hear that some cartilage problem either ends their season or ends their career. Is there some work you're doing that maybe could make a difference?

Dr. Hubert Kim:
When you listen to the news or watch the news, they talk about cartilage damage. There are really two kinds of cartilage they're talking about. The first is the meniscal cartilage. Those are kind of O-rings in the knee that help distribute the load and that's not what we're really talking about today. What we're really talking about is the gliding surface cartilage or the articular cartilage, and that's a very unique tissue that is able to really withstand tremendous loads and usually lasts a lifetime, but in sports injuries and other types of injuries you can actually knock pieces of this cartilage off or damage it in a way that it no longer functions.

That's when patients undergo different treatments to try to regenerate or replace the damaged tissue, which is not very good at it yet, and so that's kind of what we're looking at. We're looking at ways to treat cartilage damage after it occurs, and also prevent cartilage tissue loss after an acute injury so that our job is easier, more easier, than it otherwise would be.

Andrew Schorr:
Dr. Kim ,when we think of that smooth gliding cartilage we wish the body could just put it back together, but I understand sometimes the body fills in with kind of a fibrous kind of cartilage that just isn't smooth. Is that right?

Dr. Hubert Kim:
Yes. That's correct. So what happens is if the bone under the cartilage is damaged the injury site fills with a mixture of cells that can form kind of what we think of as a cartilage scar, but it just doesn't reproduce the normal cartilage tissue, and the material that ends up filling this space is kind of a fibrous tissue that doesn't work as well as normal cartilage and doesn't last the way that normal articular cartilage does. So that's one of the really ineffective healing responses that the body has, and so that's why we're looking for better ways to regenerate the damaged tissue.
Benefits of Limiting Cartilage Loss After Injury

Andrew Schorr:
All right. Now one part of it is regeneration, and the other part of it is preventing cartilage loss. Help us understand that. So somebody, let's say, was in an accident and is brought to the emergency room. Are cartilage cells dying? And just like if somebody had a stroke or if somebody had a heart attack and the muscle cells are dying, is that's what's going on, and is that what you are trying to prevent further loss of?

Dr. Hubert Kim:
That's exactly right. When the cartilage absorbs a certain amount of energy, the cells that make up cartilage die, and they die by different mechanisms some of which are inevitable, but there are some cells that are dying by a process that we might be able to manipulate. There's a process termed programmed cell death that's kicked into overdrive after cartilage injury. So when we did research looking at pieces of cartilage from patients who are undergoing surgery to address these knee fractures we found that a lot of these cells are undergoing programmed cell death, and so the next line of research that we entered into was to study ways we might be able to block this process and thereby preserve some of the cartilage cells that otherwise would die.

There is strong proof of concept that supports the idea of minimizing the zone of injury or the area of injury the same way that doctors do in the emergency room when people are having strokes or heart attacks. If we can minimize the amount of cell death, we hope that we can preserve as much cartilage as possible. There is some cartilage death we can't do anything about initially, but there does look like there is a substantial amount of cartilage death that we could potentially at least prevent with relatively simple treatments.

Andrew Schorr:
So the goal is to be as good as new or as close as you can to that, and have joints with smooth gliding full range of motion. So how are you approaching that? We've talked about cells. What are you doing in your effort to try to get there?

Dr. Hubert Kim:
On the prevention side, we're testing different drugs and the conditions that would limit the amount of injury that occurs after cartilage damage. On the joint cartilage regeneration side, our team is very interested in trying to harness the potential of stem cells, adult stem cells, to regenerate the tissue that's as close to normal articular cartilage as possible.

Research Goals and Clinical Trials

Andrew Schorr:
Adult stem cells . . . I know this is different from some of the other research going on in California and elsewhere. Tell us what that means. Would somebody get some sort of injection of cells, and that could help their cartilage start regrowing, or how would it work?

Dr. Hubert Kim:
This is quite a bit more involved and more sophisticated than an injection. That's probably not the way that we would want to proceed with stem cell therapy. We're talking about actually developing a combination of scaffolds that will give guidance to these cells, and also specific instructions to these cells to generate tissue that more approximates normal articular cartilage. Our approach will actually be requiring surgery to implant a scaffold and mesenchymal stem cells and additional cells and signals that will actually get these cells to develop into normal cartilage cells that will produce normal cartilage tissue.

Andrew Schorr:
When you talk about a scaffold, there is kind of lines of cells, cells lined up in a little patch or something like that, and that's implanted. The idea is that it will fill in with other cells your body will be instructed to produce?

Dr. Hubert Kim:
We will be implanting cells right from the start that will start generating cartilage tissue, and there will probably be some additional contribution from your own repair cells, but the driving force behind the cartilage repair will actually be the cells that will implant into the defect, to the area of the cartilage damage.

Andrew Schorr:
All right, that is so cool. Now it sounds a little out there. Where are we now? Are we on the cusp of making this a reality at UCSF? Where are we with it?

Dr. Hubert Kim:
Well you indirectly mentioned the California Stem Cell Initiative, which is a proposition passed by the voters of California to fund stem cell research, and the mandate for the particular project we're most interested in is actually to bring stem cell technology to clinical trials within four years, which is as you know a very rapid pace. That has really pushed us to try to find something that's feasible that we could actually bring to clinical trials in that short time span.

In the grand scheme of things, four years, to us at least, doesn't sound that far away when we think of all the things that we need to accomplish in that time frame. I'm sure patients would like to see it in four months, but I think it is realistic that we could have a stem-cell-based cartilage repair strategy at least in the testing phases in four years. At least that's our goal.

Andrew Schorr:
How can patients with these sorts of problems help now or in the near future? How can they help you accelerate your research?

Dr. Hubert Kim:
I think the interesting thing is that most stem-cell-based technologies address a patient population that has a strong advocacy group. It's interesting even though cartilage injury and cartilage damage and degeneration affects such a huge number of patients and has such a tremendous economic impact. We don't have the types of advocacy groups that other areas in medicine do. A lot of what governments and institutions devote their energies to are areas where there appears to be a great patient interest, so that would probably be one of the areas that would help people doing cartilage research is stronger advocacy from the patient's side.

On the other side of the equation is that patients who participate in well-designed clinical trials are not only getting treatment but also they're really advancing the state of knowledge in cartilage repair technologies. One of the tough things that people in our field are facing is proving that one treatment or one approach is actually superior than another, and the only way to get to those types of answers is for patients to enroll in clinical trials that are done very systematically and done very well. That's another way patients can really contribute to the advancement of treatments for cartilage damage.

Andrew Schorr:
What is the status of available trials now at UCSF that people could consider?

Dr. Hubert Kim:
We're about to embark on a phase III clinical trial of an existing cartilage repair technique that in some ways is similar to what we planned on doing, but instead of using stem cells they are using the patient's own grown cartilage cells. It's kind of a second generation cartilage repair technology, and in our laboratories we're trying to develop the fourth and fifth generation cartilage repair technologies. But this particular approach is very interesting and is based on very sound research and has done well to date, and the phase III trials should be starting very soon. Anybody interested in this particular approach to cartilage repair, we'd welcome their inquiries into the state of the trial.

Andrew Schorr:
So the bottom line for somebody, if let's say a trial could benefit them or the results of your research, would be somebody with injury in particular and maybe down the road osteoarthritis could hope to have smoother, hopefully pain free if we can get there, movement and range of motion. Is that right?

Dr. Hubert Kim:
That's correct. I think ultimately it's how patients feel and what they are able to do, and so we need to be able to address cartilage defects, and as you mentioned ultimately entire joints, and that consists not only of the articular cartilage but the ligaments and menisci and all the other critical components in normal joint function.
At this point, I think it's more realistic to focus on cartilage defects that are a manageable size. We're not really at the point where we can treat degenerative arthritis that affects the entire joint. We're at the stage of trying to manage much smaller defects, just parts of a joint or parts of one joint surface that are more like divots out of the smooth cartilage that we're trying to fill in. Eventually this type of approach may be translatable to total joint resurfacing, but I think that's kind of the next step.

Andrew Schorr:
So Dr. Kim, are you excited about this because this has been such a long standing problem in your field of orthopedics?

Dr. Hubert Kim:
Yes. I'm very excited. I think it's time for optimism, and I think that there are a lot of new technologies coming online and that stem cells certainly open up an approach that we just simply didn't have. I think before we were somewhat limited by the types of cells we could use for cartilage repair, and the ability to manipulate these adult stem cells is very exciting. When combined with other technologies that are being developed it looks like we're much closer to a good long-lasting solution than we were at any time previously.
It is a time of great excitement in our field. I think that within a decade I feel that we will have some really good solutions to this problem and maybe pushing the envelope towards treating entire joint surfaces, but only time will tell. I mean I think that it's important that we be systematic and cautious as we go forward, but there is a great deal of excitement and optimism right now.

Andrew Schorr:
Well I know you're opening a new building there and you've put together just a great team and your whole orthopedic surgery department is focused on this, and I know it make a big difference. Dr. Hubert Kim I wish you well as director of the UCSF Cartilage Repair and Regeneration Center. Thanks for being with us today on Patient Power.

Dr. Hubert Kim:
You're welcome.

Recorded July 2009

Reviewed by health care specialists at UCSF Medical Center.

[bgs4669]

here is a FREE giveaway link for collagen joint pain supplements i am taking now...it has a good hit of natural collagen in each supplement!

collagen.in/giveaways/no-more-aches-and-pains-joint-pain-free/

[MachineGhostX]

10 grams as that is what the studies showed worked and before bed because that amount of gelatine caused a 6X increase the natural HGH spike that occurs 2 hours after falling asleep, so you get even more bang for your buck.



Wow, is that really true? Who can confirm or refute this?

 

If you read the blog entry, they say 48g of gelatin or 2.2kg of pudding.  Not sure where 10g came from?

 

And there's nothing special about gelatin doing this; any protein powder would do it so long as it isn't deficient in arginine and lysine which are secretagogues.

[MachineGhostX]

If it's just about the amino acids, why not take those? They should be easier to digest. According to wikipedia:

 

 glycine 21%, proline 12%, hydroxyproline 12%, glutamic acid 10%,alanine 9%, arginine 8%, aspartic acid 6%, lysine 4%, serine 4%, leucine 3%, valine 2%, phenylalanine 2%, threonine 2%, isoleucine 1%,hydroxylysine 1%, methionine and histidine <1% and tyrosine <0.5%. 

 

Niner, do you know which of those are essential for cartilage repair? 

 

 

The body prefers digesting peptides over free form amino acids, so the uptake of the latter is rather poor.

 

Glycine is the magic for cartilage repair.

[airplanepeanuts]

 

The body prefers digesting peptides over free form amino acids, so the uptake of the latter is rather poor.

 

Glycine is the magic for cartilage repair.

 

 

Sources? According to this: http://www.nowfoods....k/glycine-studyabsorption is good. 

It's promotional material though.

[Logic]

10 grams as that is what the studies showed worked and before bed because that amount of gelatine caused a 6X increase the natural HGH spike that occurs 2 hours after falling asleep, so you get even more bang for your buck.



Wow, is that really true? Who can confirm or refute this?

 
If you read the blog entry, they say 48g of gelatin or 2.2kg of pudding.  Not sure where 10g came from?
 
And there's nothing special about gelatin doing this; any protein powder would do it so long as it isn't deficient in arginine and lysine which are secretagogues.

You are correct. That means that I no longer have any idea where the 10 grams comes from. Maybe its an amount that works for joint repair, but I will have to re-research that.

Shot for the arginine and lysine info as 2.2 kg of jello before bed is going to take a lot of eating!
48 grams of powder in water may be doable, but its a LOT of protein!

[niner]

Be thankful you've if regrown damaged cartilege by taking supplements -- collagen or others -- because according to contemporary orthopedics you've accomplished a medical miracle. All cases are different, of course. In my case (torn medial meniscus that prematurely ended my performing career) I've tried what's listed here in a myriad of combos since 2011. And despite many collagen and supplement brands, combinations and purchases (and some earnest magical thinking) we've seen no cartilage regrowth or regeneration in my imaging. So all y'all who've had success -- you're lucky indeed -- and I'm jealous!

Meanwhile, here's a 2009 interview transcript about some cartilage regeneration promises (these promises are more than five years old now...):

http://www.ucsfhealt...d_regeneration/

 

I wouldn't be surprised if people who are having good luck using various forms of collagen and associated cofactors just don't have the kind of injury that Kim is talking about, or that unfortunately you have.  There's probably a category of damage that is capable of causing pain and disability without the sort of injury that would require new tissue to span gaps.  That's my guess, anyway.  My problem was two cervical discs that were injured long ago, and had gotten very thin, with OA changes in the associated vertebrae.  They are acting as though they've gotten a little thicker and are doing their job again.  I hope the vertebrae will remodel themselves back to normal too.  That would be a freaking miracle.

 

Thanks for the Kim interview.  Since that was so long ago, I wonder what he's doing now?

[niner]

The body prefers digesting peptides over free form amino acids, so the uptake of the latter is rather poor.

 

Glycine is the magic for cartilage repair.

 

I looked into the first of these, and it appears to be the case that di- and tri-peptides are more efficiently absorbed than the equivalent free amino acids, at least in the general case.  (ref)  Gly and Pro might be special cases, as they have multiple absorption routes, so should have pretty decent bioavailability. 

 

As for glycine being the magic, I've not looked into it.  Seems odd.  What's the evidence for it?

[MachineGhostX]

 

The body prefers digesting peptides over free form amino acids, so the uptake of the latter is rather poor.

 

Glycine is the magic for cartilage repair.

 

I looked into the first of these, and it appears to be the case that di- and tri-peptides are more efficiently absorbed than the equivalent free amino acids, at least in the general case.  (ref)  Gly and Pro might be special cases, as they have multiple absorption routes, so should have pretty decent bioavailability. 

 

As for glycine being the magic, I've not looked into it.  Seems odd.  What's the evidence for it?

 

 

I shouldn't have said magic for cartilage repair, but magic for cartilage composition, for which it is roughly 1/3rd.  Gelatin, beef protein powder, etc. are high in glycine compared to traditional proteins.  Probably the others too.

 

Collagen is composed of a triple helix, which generally consists of two identical chains (α1) and an additional chain that differs slightly in its chemical composition (α2).[26] The amino acid composition of collagen is atypical for proteins, particularly with respect to its high hydroxyproline content. The most common motifs in the amino acid sequence of collagen are glycine-proline-X and glycine-X-hydroxyproline, where X is any amino acid other than glycine, proline or hydroxyproline

→ source (external link)

 

I've been taking beef protein isolate every day more or less for several years so if glycine was going to do any magic, I haven't seen any evidence.  However, I have elevated cortisol, so I suspect it is losing any battle against that (because the problem re-appeared shortly after I started weight lifting again).

 

Is this a reputable journal?

 

Rheumatoid arthritis is an inflammatory synovial disease thought to involve T cells reacting to an antigen within the joint. Type II collagen is the major protein in articular cartilage and is a potential autoantigen in this disease. Oral tolerization to autoantigens suppresses animal models of T cell-mediated autoimmune disease, including two models of rheumatoid arthritis. In this randomized, double-blind trial involving 60 patients with severe, active rheumatoid arthritis, a decrease in the number of swollen joints and tender joints occurred in subjects fed chicken type II collagen for 3 months but not in those that received a placebo. Four patients in the collagen group had complete remission of the disease. No side effects were evident. These data demonstrate clinical efficacy of an oral tolerization approach for rheumatoid arthritis.

→ source (external link)

Edited by MachineGhostX, 04 February 2015 - 02:53 PM.

[RunnerV]

 

 

I've been taking beef protein isolate every day more or less for several years so if glycine was going to do any magic, I haven't seen any evidence.  However, I have elevated cortisol, so I suspect it is losing any battle against that (because the problem re-appeared shortly after I started weight lifting again).

 

 

 

Just wondering if you ever tried any other collagens and if they worked at all to any extend?

[niner]

I've been taking beef protein isolate every day more or less for several years so if glycine was going to do any magic, I haven't seen any evidence.  However, I have elevated cortisol, so I suspect it is losing any battle against that (because the problem re-appeared shortly after I started weight lifting again).

 

Is this a reputable journal?

 

Rheumatoid arthritis is an inflammatory synovial disease thought to involve T cells reacting to an antigen within the joint. Type II collagen is the major protein in articular cartilage and is a potential autoantigen in this disease. Oral tolerization to autoantigens suppresses animal models of T cell-mediated autoimmune disease, including two models of rheumatoid arthritis. In this randomized, double-blind trial involving 60 patients with severe, active rheumatoid arthritis, a decrease in the number of swollen joints and tender joints occurred in subjects fed chicken type II collagen for 3 months but not in those that received a placebo. Four patients in the collagen group had complete remission of the disease. No side effects were evident. These data demonstrate clinical efficacy of an oral tolerization approach for rheumatoid arthritis.

→ source (external link)

 

When you say beef protein isolate, do you mean collagen specifically, or is this more of a muscle-building product?   If it's the latter, it's probably not going to be particularly great at helping cartilage.

 

The journal you reference here is legit.  The name of it is "Science", and it's roughly the American equivalent of Nature.  The stuff about oral tolerization of autoantigens has been known for a couple decades at least.  It's been demonstrated to work, though I'm not sure if the mechanism is understood or not.  I'd sure as hell do it if I had RA.

[Luminosity]

This thread has been viewed over 86,000 times, with 325 replies.  It's been viewed almost three times as much as the other "hot" supplement threads:

 

http://www.longecity.../6-supplements/

 

 

RESPONDING TO LOGIC--

 

Logic:  Have you tried .  .  .  prebiotics .  .  .  and Inulin etc. along with different probiotics.

 

Luminosity: YES

 

Logic: Virgin Coconut Oil seems good at killing off nasties like Candida (a NAD+ auxotroph) 

 

Luminosity:  I DON'T HAVE CANDIDA, AND I CAN'T DIGEST COCONUT OIL.  SOME CAN'T.  I AM GUESSING THAT THERE ARE MANY MORE DIGESTIVE ISSUES AND FOOD SENSITIVITIES THAN YOU REALIZE.  AGAIN, THERE ARE MANY DIFFERENT METABOLISMS.  

 

IT'S IMPORTANT TO TAKE C WITH COLLAGEN AND MSM, SO I'M GLAD YOU WILL BE DOING THAT.  IT DOES HELPS THEM WORK, AS I'VE BEEN LABORING MIGHTILY TO CONVEY TO YOU.

 

IN GENERAL, IT WOULD BE BETTER TO TAKE C WITH A MEAL, A SNACK OR JUICE, IF NOT WITH THE COLLAGEN OR MSM.  IT'S GOOD TO TAKE WITH FOOD THAT NATURALLY CONTAINS VITAMIN C.  THIS MAY CONTAIN NATURAL CO-FACTORS THAT HELPS YOU METABOLIZE IT.  C IS ONLY ACTIVE FOR ABOUT FIVE OR SIX HOURS IN YOUR SYSTEM.  FOR MANY PEOPLE IT WOULD BE EASIER TO DIGEST AND UTILIZE C WHILE AWAKE, ALL OTHER THINGS BEING EQUAL.  ALL OTHER THINGS BEING EQUAL, IT'S A GOOD IDEA TO DIVIDE IT INTO DOSES TAKE DURING THE DAY, AS IT IS ONLY ACTIVE FOR FIVE OR SIX HOURS.  

 

Logic:  Have you tried supps like Cissus, Horney Goat Weed, Olive leaf extract, astragalus, Ecdysterone as nicely summarised on Ergo. log?

.  .  .  (and the inadvertent Ester C?)

 

Luminosity:  WHAT TO YOU TAKE THOSE FOR?  I TRIED ECDYSTERONE.  IT DIDN'T DO THAT MUCH FOR ME AND IT SCREWED WITH MY PERIODS.  DO WOMEN TAKE HORNY GOAT WEED FOR ORTHOPEDIC PROBLEMS?  NOT SURE WHAT INADVERTENT ESTER C IS.  THERE'S NOTHING INADVERTENT IN MY SUPPLEMENT REGIMEN.    

 

 

RESPONDING TO STHIRA:

 

Sthira:  Be thankful you've if regrown damaged cartilege by taking supplements -- collagen or others -- because according to contemporary orthopedics you've accomplished a medical miracle. 

 

Luminosity:  I AM AND I DID.   DOCTORS DON'T KNOW HOW TO REGROW CARTILAGE.  LUCKILY, OTHERS DO.  THERE WAS MORE TO IT THAN SUPPLEMENTS, BUT THEY WERE IMPORTANT.  

 

TO THE PERSON WHO SAID MY LAST POST "NEEDS REFERENCES" --

 

Again, there aren't any when you are the first one.  I wish you were respectful of that, or at least less asleep at the wheel. Speaking of which, I am going to close with a quote from Back to the Future 1985:   

 

"Roads? Where we're going, we don't need roads."

 

 

 

Edited by Luminosity, 05 February 2015 - 06:04 AM.

[Logic]

RESPONDING TO LOGIC--
 

Luminosity:  I DON'T HAVE CANDIDA, AND I CAN'T DIGEST COCONUT OIL.  SOME CAN'T.  I AM GUESSING THAT THERE ARE MANY MORE DIGESTIVE ISSUES AND FOOD SENSITIVITIES THAN YOU REALIZE.  AGAIN, THERE ARE MANY DIFFERENT METABOLISMS.  

 

 

 

No need to shout (use caps) Luminosity.
Many people do have an issues with Candida overgrowth in the gut. (I did not know you were a woman...)
As is a NAD+ auxotroph it uses NAD+ produced by the host and can lead to low energy and other issues associated with low SIRT, PARP, mitochondrial function etc.
The info may not have been useful to you (how was I to know?), but I guarantee that anyone following the Nicotinamide Riboside threads does, or should, find it very interesting

 

 

IT'S IMPORTANT TO TAKE C WITH COLLAGEN AND MSM, SO I'M GLAD YOU WILL BE DOING THAT.  IT DOES HELPS THEM WORK, AS I'VE BEEN LABORING MIGHTILY TO CONVEY TO YOU.

 

IN GENERAL, IT WOULD BE BETTER TO TAKE C WITH A MEAL, A SNACK OR JUICE, IF NOT WITH THE COLLAGEN OR MSM.  IT'S GOOD TO TAKE WITH FOOD THAT NATURALLY CONTAINS VITAMIN C.  THIS MAY CONTAIN NATURAL CO-FACTORS THAT HELPS YOU METABOLIZE IT.  C IS ONLY ACTIVE FOR ABOUT FIVE OR SIX HOURS IN YOUR SYSTEM.  FOR MANY PEOPLE IT WOULD BE EASIER TO DIGEST AND UTILIZE C WHILE AWAKE, ALL OTHER THINGS BEING EQUAL.  ALL OTHER THINGS BEING EQUAL, IT'S A GOOD IDEA TO DIVIDE IT INTO DOSES TAKE DURING THE DAY, AS IT IS ONLY ACTIVE FOR FIVE OR SIX HOURS.  

 

 

 

I am aware of the half life of C and co-factors and do also take it at other times.
The point I made (Quite clearly I thought?) is that it was fortuitous that I took vitamin C at the same time as Gelatine. Namely before bed for the HGH boosting effect.

 

 

Logic:  Have you tried supps like Cissus, Horney Goat Weed, Olive leaf extract, astragalus, Ecdysterone as nicely summarised on Ergo. log?

.  .  .  (and the inadvertent Ester C?)

 

Luminosity:  WHAT TO YOU TAKE THOSE FOR?  I TRIED ECDYSTERONE.  IT DIDN'T DO THAT MUCH FOR ME AND IT SCREWED WITH MY PERIODS.  DO WOMEN TAKE HORNY GOAT WEED FOR ORTHOPEDIC PROBLEMS?  NOT SURE WHAT INADVERTENT ESTER C IS.  THERE'S NOTHING INADVERTENT IN MY SUPPLEMENT REGIMEN.    

 

Again; I was unaware tht you were a woman. (Woman tend to be less confrontational and argumentative than men...)
Had I known I would have left Cissus and HGW which mess with testosterone-estrogen off of the list.

All the supps mentioned do however have studies showing that they help with the repair of collagen.
I posted some links to that effect earlier in this thread as you are aware, as they are interspersed with your own posts:

http://www.longecity...ndpost&p=558918
http://www.longecity...ndpost&p=562865
http://www.longecity...ndpost&p=562879
http://www.longecity...ndpost&p=564212

Ester C is short for Esterified vitamin C which is absorbed faster, lasts longer, is fat soluble and produces some L-Threonate in the body.
L-Threonate can be thought of as an intracellular vitamin C.

It represses the glycoprotein dickkopf-1 (Dkk-1) and is thus an interesting line of research to follow for osteoarthritis etc. sufferers:
http://www.longecity...ndpost&p=588948

The fact that you are unaware of all this means that you chose to ignore my posts; which is very insulting.
Had you taken the trouble to read them and follow the links, you would know that my post do contain references to published studies and possibly (though doubtful  ) have a higher opinion of me.

I am impressed by your research and recovery and appreciate your input here, but it would seem that your digestive issues and food sensitivities etc are highly specific to you.
That makes you an expert on your specific case.

My advice is more general and hence of more use to everyone else here IMHO.

 

Peace

 

[sthira]

A useful community service is to indicate what injury you've seen improved by what specific pill thingy. The answer to the question of "does this work to repair cartilege?" is : "it depends."

If you have an injury in an area that receives nice blood flow, and you need some specific nutrients offered conveniently on Amazon for $39.95, then buy them, take them patiently for six months, a year, be kind to your injury, then slowly ...taa-daa... Success(!), now smile warmly at the miracle of your body and get back out there on the dance circuit.

But if you have an injury in an area of your body that receives no blood flow, then unless you grow new bloodlines, it doesn't matter how much collagen or vitamin c or bone broth you consume, it's not going to regenerate tissue because (unlike the quote above about roads) healing connective tissue certainly does require roads (blood supply lines). Without "roads" all that good stuff is simply not going to get where it needs to go.

Of course it's not that simple, either.

[bgs4669]

Totally agree...some people think there way only or the highway.

But for me, having perthes disease from age 11 have had loads of pain and pain meds etc.

Doctors / Surgeons only interested in chucking new one in and giving no other advice or discarding anything new - like just eat real food.

Nothing seemed to work at all and hip replacement seemed my only option...until i tried a natural collagen supplement. And believe you I tried many of them just to find something to ease the pain.

Basically instantly pain gone, and mobility increased 10 fold over the week...now nearly 2 years later living life near pain free.

But the important things I learned when I saw the results was maybe it in my nutrition and lacking collagen production...And hip joint is alot more fluid taking the supplements, and I have cut back on the supplements to 1 every other day, as I have found eating loads of nuts and seeds, salmon, sardines and prawns, and alot of foods with vitamin c, regularly - and not taking vitamin C supplements has helped significantly. This I learned myself and listened to my body.

One thing I cannot beat though is the weather, when it changes so does the intense pain and tightening around hip joint - so i generally take the supplements a little more regularly at these times and it seriously helps like no other!

The other real thing too is cutting out table salt and everyday having 1/4 a spoon of himilayan / celtic sea salt in large glass of water...this also seems to give the body more minerals and I do not have any problems now...

Even my cramping is gone!! 

 

And with perthes you can have pain every minute of your day, sleeping, sitting and walking does not matter...

Edited by bgs4669, 05 February 2015 - 12:11 PM.