517 replies to this topic

[MachineGhostX]

When you say beef protein isolate, do you mean collagen specifically, or is this more of a muscle-building product?   If it's the latter, it's probably not going to be particularly great at helping cartilage.

 

 

It's more of a muscle-building product.  Here's the composition:

Amino Acid Profile
Per 100 grams
Glycine		20.1
Glutamic Acid	11.3
Proline		11.1
Alanine		8.8
Arginine	7.3
Aspartic Acid	6.2
Lysine		5.1
Serine		3.4
Leucine		3.3
Valine		2.8
Phenylalanine	2.3
Threonine	2.1
Isoleucine	1.7
Histidine	1.2
Methionine	1.2
Tyrosine	0.9
Cystine		0.5
Tryptophan	0.3

And BioCell Type I and II:

Amino Acid Profile
Per 100 grams
Glycine		22.7
Proline		13.7
Hydroxyproline	12.9
Glutamic Acid	9.4
Alanine		8.4
Arginine	7.8
Aspartic Acid	5.6
Lysine		4.1
Serine		3.2
Leucine		2.8
Valine		2.3
Phenylalanine	1.9
Threonine	1.8
Isoleucine	1.2
Methionine	0.7
Histidine	0.7
Hydroxylysine	0.6
Tyrosine	0.3
Cystine		0.1

And gelatin:

Amino Acid Profile
Per 100 grams
Glycine 	21.4
Proline 	12.4
Hydroxyproline 	11.9
Glutamic acid 	10.0
Alanine 	8.9
Arginine 	7.8
Aspartic acid 	6.0
Serine 		3.6
Lycine 		3.5
Leucine 	3.3
Phenylanine 	2.4
Valine 		2.2
Throonine 	2.1
Isoleucine 	1.5
Hydoxylysine 	1.0
Histidine 	0.8
Methionine 	0.7
Tyrosine 	0.5

Looks like you were right.  I'll be adding this to my regime soon: http://www.swansonvi...-mg-60-veg-caps

 

Do note that hydroxylation of proline into hydroxyproline requires vitamin C since the lack of proline hydroxylation is essentially scurvy.  So I don't know how useful supplementing with the above is, but Luminosity appears to be correct in combinging proline-dense collagen with vitamin C and letting it sit?

 

Edited by MachineGhostX, 05 February 2015 - 04:14 PM.

[MachineGhostX]

But for me, having perthes disease from age 11 have had loads of pain and pain meds etc.

Doctors / Surgeons only interested in chucking new one in and giving no other advice or discarding anything new - like just eat real food.

Nothing seemed to work at all and hip replacement seemed my only option...until i tried a natural collagen supplement. And believe you I tried many of them just to find something to ease the pain.

What brand and type?

[MachineGhostX]

 

Ester C is short for Esterified vitamin C which is absorbed faster, lasts longer, is fat soluble and produces some L-Threonate in the body.

L-Threonate can be thought of as an intracellular vitamin C.

 

Except those studies are virtually all sponsored by the manufacturer, so hardly what I'd consider impartial evidence.  There's also oxidized metabolites in Ester-C.  No, thanks!  I think you'd be better off sticking with regular C in multiple dose, time relase or liposomal form from an independent evidence standpoint.

Edited by MachineGhostX, 05 February 2015 - 04:22 PM.

[bgs4669]

Invita skin beauty initially as it was a supplement my wife was taking here in Poland for her skin care. But this supplement has a terrific side benefit of joint pain relief too. And many people swear by it here in Poland and eastern europe. It was also known as colvita however it was a direct copy of the original Invita skin beauty, and until recently the producer stopped producing for the distributor (who now poducers there own unproven version).

http://collagen.in/p...en-supplements/

 

Inventia the producer have recently also produced a joint pain supplement due to there success with the skin care supplement...

I have been taking it the past few months with consistent results to Invita. Also several other people have taken it that have had shoulder and knee problems needing surgery and have taken this supplement, and now do not need surgery and full increase in range of motion compared to before taking the supplements.

http://collagen.in/p...in-supplements/

 

 

 

[bgs4669]

The bladderwrack and glucosamine helps quickly alleviate pain by binding to the inflammation creating lectins, and then flushes out of your system.

In the shark cartilage / joint pain supplements they are also pretty loaded in natural collagen compared to the skin care supplements they first brought out, and from what i have seen on the market probably the most per supplement. So gives you a good dose of natural collagen 80mg to help repair along with the rest of its ingredients. 

• shark cartilage, containing type II collagen 128mg, chondritin 19 mg
• glucosamine sulfate, 129 mg
• hyaluronic acid .015gand
• extract of Indian frankincense (Boswellia Serrata) 56mg. 

[niner]

It's more of a muscle-building product.  Here's the composition:  [...]

Looks like you were right.  I'll be adding this to my regime soon: http://www.swansonvi...-mg-60-veg-caps

 

Do note that hydroxylation of proline into hydroxyproline requires vitamin C since the lack of proline hydroxylation is essentially scurvy.  So I don't know how useful supplementing with the above is, but Luminosity appears to be correct in combinging proline-dense collagen with vitamin C and letting it sit?

 

Actually, it has a lot more gly and pro than you'd get from typical protein, which suggests that it's at least a mix of collagen and other protein.  But then, where did the hydroxypro go?  Weird.    You need sufficient C (I'm not sure how much constitutes sufficiency; probably doesn't take all that much) to properly build collagen, but Luminosity's kitchen chemistry isn't going to do the job.  It's an enzymatic reaction where C is a cofactor.  Without the enzyme present, it isn't going to do anything.

 

My personal n=1 uncontrolled experiment did not use supplemental C, yet I got good results.  I have a pretty decent diet, with a lot of natural sources.  That doesn't mean added C wouldn't help, particularly if your diet isn't that great.

[Luminosity]

Logic, Didn't mean to shout.  I was just trying to differentiate between our voices.  So, those supps wouldn't work for a woman.  Good to know.  No one can read all the dense 340 posts on this thread.  I mostly come here to answer questions and help people.     

 

Sthira,  I don't agree that because an cartilage or connective tissue doesn't have good blood flow, it can't be healed.  I choose not to go over my problems as I am leaving them behind, but I know what I'm talking about.  We go from two cells in our mother's wombs to a whole baby with all its cartilage and connective tissue.  We do this without blood vessels in the cartilage.  Then we go from a baby to an adult--same deal.  The "blood supply theory" isn't true.  Cartilage is slow to heal and you need to find what works for you.  Again, doctors often can't help.  The end of our experience is the beginning of a new adventure.  Are you ready for that?  

 

Here's a link to some self-expression threads:

 

http://www.longecity...ession-threads/

 

Someone was saying "my way or the highway," maybe directed at me.  If you have found a regimen that works for you, great.  I was speaking to the many people who haven't but are endlessly trying to comprehend collagen, and getting stuck there.  I was also speaking to people who are following regimens I don't think are the best and maybe not getting good results.    

  

Edited by Luminosity, 08 February 2015 - 05:24 AM.

[ironfistx]

The most economical gelatin is knox gelatine.  It's in the pie aisle at the grocery store.  You can get a few different sized boxes and they are in envelopes with 8g each.

[ironfistx]

This product at swanson claims to regrow cartilage with stem cells.  Looking at this claim, though, I haven't seen much online to say it works, ad there aren't many reviews.

 

https://www.swansonv...-mg-30-veg-caps

 

Here is a thread about it:

 

http://www.longecity...cells-directly/

 

Can anyone contribute anything on this topic or know of this pill?

[niner]

This product at swanson claims to regrow cartilage with stem cells.  Looking at this claim, though, I haven't seen much online to say it works, ad there aren't many reviews.

 

https://www.swansonv...-mg-30-veg-caps

 

Here is a thread about it:

 

http://www.longecity...cells-directly/

 

Can anyone contribute anything on this topic or know of this pill?

 

I don't have high hopes for this.  It's trying to deliver large proteins orally, and the gut's job is to tear proteins to shreds.  The body does not want foreign proteins entering the bloodstream, so it has evolved a very effective barrier to that.  I'm kind of surprised that Swanson would put their name on this.  I think it's mentioning "stem cells" because it sounds good.  Is there any clinical research whatsoever behind this stuff?

[MachineGhostX]

This product at swanson claims to regrow cartilage with stem cells.  Looking at this claim, though, I haven't seen much online to say it works, ad there aren't many reviews.

 

https://www.swansonv...-mg-30-veg-caps

 

Here is a thread about it:

 

http://www.longecity...cells-directly/

 

Can anyone contribute anything on this topic or know of this pill?

 

I tried it.  Felt no evidence of it doing anything.  Sent it back for a refund.

[RunnerV]

I wonder if choice of diet and lifestyle have any effect the collagen absorption rate since some people seems to have good result but others don't? I am a part time vegetarian, meaning I only eat animal protein once or twice in a week at most to top up my protein level and that's usually seafood. I rarely eat red meat. As there aren't much protein in my diet, will collagen be used for other purpose in my body and not having much chance to reach knee joint for cartilage and ligament to use? 

 

For people whole has good results from collagen supplements (be it gelatine type, denatured or undenatured Type I, II, III), do you eat a lot of protein in your diet?

[bgs4669]

Yeah that is the kicker and the choice of supplements.

For one i do not understand why some brands say to take on empty stomach, when I know and read that for increasing collagen production naturally in the body you need to ensure the right environment...magnesium, vitamin C and many other essential vitamins and minerals help / boost collagen production. This would be the same for taking a supplement I would have imagined...and this is why I take collagen supplements toward the end of the meal or slightly after as they are said to also work best in a fat soluble environment - 'best during end of meal'.

 

Additionally and this I have read and researched a little in the past few days and probably for me the real help is pepper.

The active ingredient pepperine can greatly help aid absorption of vitamins and mineral - some 10 times.

Even just a little bit...

Pepper itseld apparently does not do much but the list of mineral and vitamins and amino acids a fairly large and this for me I think greatly helps boost the efficieny of my collagen supplements as well as the flaxseeds, himilayan salts and other foods I eat aimed at helping boost my vitamins and minerals for my hip pain.

 

And doing this regularly I have absolutlely no dramas for past 2 years doing this...with 10 fold sustain mobility and largely no pain. (can't seem to get around the sudden weather changes still).

[Gerrans]

Yeah that is the kicker and the choice of supplements.

For one i do not understand why some brands say to take on empty stomach, when I know and read that for increasing collagen production naturally in the body you need to ensure the right environment...magnesium, vitamin C and many other essential vitamins and minerals help / boost collagen production. This would be the same for taking a supplement I would have imagined...and this is why I take collagen supplements toward the end of the meal or slightly after as they are said to also work best in a fat soluble environment - 'best during end of meal'.

 

 

I always guessed the business of taking collagen on an empty stomach was so that nothing else would interfere with the reforming of the collagen after it had broken down in digestion. But it struck me as a naff idea.

 

I was taking a number of things for my bad knees, and my arthritis became so much better--in the sense that I hardly feel it now (I doubt anything has been repaired, being a pessimist), so long as I do not stress it. I rather resented the collagen supplements and powders, though, as they were expensive, given how much you are recommended to take. Not only that, but there was the whole fol-de-rol of Collagen I,II, and III, which frustratingly never seemed to all come in the same supplement. So when I kept quickly running out, I switched to cheap old gelatin.

 

There has been no deterioration in my knees as a result, but this might as well mean neither collagen nor gelatin makes any difference as that the latter is as good as the former. I suspect eating clean is what improved my arthritis, along with my general health.

 

On the whole, I think the instructions on supplement tubs about when to take them are largely balderdash based on bits and pieces of lab science. I think if your body needs something, it will not pass up on it, whenever you take it. (OK, I suppose it makes sense, in a simplistic way, to take certain oil-soluble supplements with fat, so I do that, for form's sake. But it is not as if the body does not contain plenty of fat to use as and when it wishes to help with digestion.)
 

Edited by Gerrans, 11 February 2015 - 05:30 PM.

[RunnerV]

Anyone on this forum taking collagen (or getting) for Meniscus injury? did you have any surgery? I am thinking if I should delay surgery to allow time for collagen to work. is it a good idea? 

 

by the way, I've been taking NeoCell Collagen for few weeks now and noticed my nails grow really fast. I hope this is a sign the my body is absorbing all the expansive collagen supplements ..

[niner]

If you have a meniscus tear, I doubt that collagen will do much for it. I suspect it works better for dealing with cases where collagen structures have thinned but are still intact. If it were me, I'd probably have the surgery sooner rather than later, and would still take the collagen.

[sthira]

Anyone on this forum taking collagen (or getting) for Meniscus injury? did you have any surgery? I am thinking if I should delay surgery to allow time for collagen to work. is it a good idea?

by the way, I've been taking NeoCell Collagen for few weeks now and noticed my nails grow really fast. I hope this is a sign the my body is absorbing all the expansive collagen supplements ..

Hey Runner, I have a medial tear in the "white zone" which gets no blood flow and evidently remains a medical challenge. I think, though, that the potential benefits of taking supplements like collagen, msm, glucosamine and many of the others may depend upon where your damage is located in the meniscus. Any ideas on where it is?

[RunnerV]

 

Anyone on this forum taking collagen (or getting) for Meniscus injury? did you have any surgery? I am thinking if I should delay surgery to allow time for collagen to work. is it a good idea?

by the way, I've been taking NeoCell Collagen for few weeks now and noticed my nails grow really fast. I hope this is a sign the my body is absorbing all the expansive collagen supplements ..

Hey Runner, I have a medial tear in the "white zone" which gets no blood flow and evidently remains a medical challenge. I think, though, that the potential benefits of taking supplements like collagen, msm, glucosamine and many of the others may depend upon where your damage is located in the meniscus. Any ideas on where it is?

 

 

My GP thinks it's a possible medial menisci tear but she emphased that she is not a specialist and a simple manual test is not accurate enough. I now have to choose MRI or Arthroscopy, and if I choose Arthroscopy then waiting time is shorter but repair will happen at the same time. This means Dr will decide whether to cut some pieces off on the spot and I won't get a say. 

 

I could opt for MRI but the waiting time could be 3-6 month, and it's torture not being able to run. 

 

I haven't tried MSM, am thinking perhaps I should add it into my routine. Can I eat MSM with Collagen or should I separate the intake?

Edited by RunnerV, 19 February 2015 - 11:23 PM.

[sthira]

Anyone on this forum taking collagen (or getting) for Meniscus injury? did you have any surgery? I am thinking if I should delay surgery to allow time for collagen to work. is it a good idea?

by the way, I've been taking NeoCell Collagen for few weeks now and noticed my nails grow really fast. I hope this is a sign the my body is absorbing all the expansive collagen supplements ..

Hey Runner, I have a medial tear in the "white zone" which gets no blood flow and evidently remains a medical challenge. I think, though, that the potential benefits of taking supplements like collagen, msm, glucosamine and many of the others may depend upon where your damage is located in the meniscus. Any ideas on where it is?

My GP thinks it's a possible medial menisci tear but she emphased that she is not a specialist and a simple manual test is not accurate enough. I now have to choose MRI or Arthroscopy, and if I choose Arthroscopy then waiting time is shorter but repair will happen at the same time. This means Dr will decide whether to cut some pieces off on the spot and I won't get a say.

I could opt for MRI but the waiting time could be 3-6 month, and it's torture not being able to run.

I haven't tried MSM, am thinking perhaps I should add it into my routine. Can I eat MSM with Collagen or should I separate the intake?

I'm sorry for your pain, and certainly empathize as I'm experiencing similar circumstances. But you seem to be trapped in an unfair box of sorts: either have arthroscopic surgery soon, or get an MRI later. To me this seems backwards. Why not get an MRI first, see what damage may be in that tissue, and then reevaluate your options? Granted, we know imaging like MRIs are not always perfect tools to addressing complex problems. But an MRI is at least a signpost to what may possibly be causing your knee pain.

An orthopedist may tell you that she doesn't really know what's wrong with your knee based upon imaging alone. Rather, it's only when they stick a camera in that space, look around, and then see what the problem may be. But realize that there isn't really conclusive evidence in the current lliterature that there even is a link between "knee pain" and a disturbed meniscus. The pain may be caused by the tear, or it may be entirely unrelated. In fact, if we do MRIs often reveal meniscus tears on people who don't even have "knee pain." It's also the case that an arthroscope to remove and "clean up" a damaged meniscus may be no better than placebo. That is, your knee may feel better whether you opt for the surgery or not. Or, your knee may not improve regardless. The body is tricky. So, I'm not really sure if I agree with Niner's advice to get the scope ASAP. Maybe you should, maybe you shouldn't. The honest answer is no one really knows. Evidence suggests osteoarthritis may be more likely once you remove pieces of that important shock absorber from your knee. But evidence also indicates that you may develop OA quicker if you do not have the surgery. Or, maybe you won't get OA at all in that knee. It all depends upon so many personal factors about you as an individual, that's it's impossible to give you a pat, simple answer.

Regarding the msm question and combining it with collagen supplements, based on my reading, which may be wrong or may be right, it doesn't seem to hurt, or make things worse. And I think it's mostly harmless, but unlikely to do much unless that area of damage is biologically able to receive the added nutrition via blood lines.

Clear as mud...

[limited]

L-cysteine i want to try try bcus i hear its good for lightening melasma/pigmentation but think its safer to try l-merhionine? Is this similar to MSM?

[albedo]

L-cysteine i want to try try bcus i hear its good for lightening melasma/pigmentation but think its safer to try l-merhionine? Is this similar to MSM?

 

Sorry, what do you mean?
 

[daco222]

There is a treatment with great results, platelet-rich plasma, I wanted to make an study In dogs with hip dysplasia, there is no oral treatment for the moment, and the suplements are only for slow down the phatology, I saw many investigations with it, and this a summary, this treatment its with your own blood, they centrifugate, and extract the part that its rich in platelet, and then they inyect into the joint, this plasm have many grown factor, that induce the chondrogenesis. 

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/24212369

http://www.medscape....warticle/818447

Edited by daco222, 03 March 2015 - 06:06 PM.

[niner]

 

My GP thinks it's a possible medial menisci tear but she emphased that she is not a specialist and a simple manual test is not accurate enough. I now have to choose MRI or Arthroscopy, and if I choose Arthroscopy then waiting time is shorter but repair will happen at the same time. This means Dr will decide whether to cut some pieces off on the spot and I won't get a say.

I could opt for MRI but the waiting time could be 3-6 month, and it's torture not being able to run.

...  So, I'm not really sure if I agree with Niner's advice to get the scope ASAP.

 

I'm not really sure if I agree with my advice either.  I assumed that there would be a diagnosis first.  I suppose it could be argued that the best diagnosis is arthroscopic, at least hypothetically.  One the doctor is in there, if they decide surgery is warranted, then there's not much point in waiting.  It all depends on whether you want to trust the surgeon's judgement.  If they know in advance that you want to be very conservative, and they're willing to defer to your judgment, then it should be ok, other than the highly invasive nature of arthroscopy.

 

I guess this is the price of healthcare for all without bankrupting the country-- you have to wait a long time for an MRI in a non-life-threatening situation.   Could you get one sooner if you paid for it yourself?  Or is that not allowed?  Would an x-ray suffice?  You could always fly to the US-- all it takes is lots of money.  (You could probably find something closer to home, too.)

[deeptrance]

 

"Logic"   There's a lot of things  you don't understand.  I'm glad store gelatin works for you but you should refrain from advising others because you don't know enough.

Educate me!

 

 

It seems that you're saying all these different collagen types are essentially the same, but they're not. The digestive process breaks down the protein to peptides, not all the way to constituent amino acids. The peptide composition of each type of collagen is similar, but different. These peptides are absorbed from the digestive tract. Maybe you knew this already, but if proteins were completely broken down to amino acids then we could just consume amino supplements and we'd get all the benefits of proteins, but it doesn't work that way. 

[sthira]

Scientists move closer to creating cartilage from stem cells
March 3 2015

Scientists have succeeded in producing cartilage formed from embryonic stem cells that could in future be used to treat the painful joint condition osteoarthritis.

In research funded by Arthritis Research UK, Professor Sue Kimber and her team in the Faculty of Life Sciences at The University of Manchester has developed a protocol under strict laboratory conditions to grow and transform embryonic stem cells into cartilage cells (also known as chondrocytes). Professor Kimber said: “This work represents an important step forward in treating cartilage damage by using embryonic stem cells to form new tissue, although it’s still in its early experimental stages.”Their research was published in Stem Cells Translational Medicine.During the study, the team analysed the ability of embryonic stems cells to become precursor cartilage cells. They were then implanted into cartilage defects in the knee joints of rats. After four weeks cartilage was partially repaired and following 12 weeks a smooth surface, which appeared similar to normal cartilage, was observed. Further study of this newly regenerated cartilage showed that cartilage cells from embryonic stem cells were still present and active within the tissue.

Developing and testing this protocol in rats is the first step in generating the information needed to run a study in people with arthritis. Before this will be possible more data will need to be collected to check that this protocol is effective and that there are no toxic side-effects. But researchers say that this study is very promising as not only didIn research funded by Arthritis Research UK, Professor Sue Kimber and her team in the Faculty of Life Sciences at The University of Manchester has developed a protocol under strict laboratory conditions to grow and transform embryonic stem cells into cartilage cells (also known as chondrocytes).Professor Kimber said: “This work represents an important step forward in treating cartilage damage by using embryonic stem cells to form new tissue, although it’s still in its early experimental stages.”Their research was published in Stem Cells Translational Medicine.During the study, the team analysed the ability of embryonic stems cells to become precursor cartilage cells. They were then implanted into cartilage defects in the knee joints of rats. After four weeks cartilage was partially repaired and following 12 weeks a smooth surface, which appeared similar to normal cartilage, was observed. Further study of this newly regenerated cartilage showed that cartilage cells from embryonic stem cells were still present and active within the tissue.

Developing and testing this protocol in rats is the first step in generating the information needed to run a study in people with arthritis. Before this will be possible more data will need to be collected to check that this protocol is effective and that there are no toxic side-effects. But researchers say that this study is very promising as not only did this protocol generate new, healthy-looking cartilage but also importantly there were no signs of any side-effects such as growing abnormal or disorganised, joint tissue or tumours. Further work will build on this finding and demonstrate that this could be a safe and effective treatment for people with joint damage.Chondrocytes created from adult stem cells are currently being experimentally used but as they cannot be currently be produced in large amounts the procedure is expensive.With their huge capacity to proliferate, embryonic stem cells, which can be manipulated to form almost any type of mature cell, offer the possibility of high-volume production of cartilage cells. Their use would also be cheaper and applicable to greater number of arthritis patients, the researchers claim.“We’ve shown that the protocol we’ve developed has strong potential for developing large numbers of chondrogenic cells appropriate for clinical use,” added Prof Kimber. “These results thus mark an important step forward in supporting further development toward clinical translation.”


Osteoarthritis affects more than eight million people in the UK, and is a major cause of disability. It and occurs when cartilage at the ends of bones wears away causing joint pain and stiffness.Director of research at Arthritis Research UK Dr Stephen Simpson added: “Current treatments of osteoarthritis are restricted to relieving painful symptoms, with no effective therapies to delay or reverse cartilage degeneration. Joint replacements are successful in older patients but not young people, or athletes who’ve suffered a sports injury.“Embryonic stem cells offer an alternative source of cartilage cells to adult stem cells, and we’re excited about the immense potential of Professor Kimber’s work and the impact it could have for people with osteoarthritis.”



Story Source:

The above story is based on materials provided by Manchester Universityhttp://www.manchester.ac.ukNote: Materials may be edited for content and length. For further information, please contact the source cited above.

Journal Reference:

A. Cheng, Z. Kapacee, J. Peng, S. Lu, R. J. Lucas, T. E. Hardingham, S. J. Kimber. Cartilage Repair Using Human Embryonic Stem Cell-Derived Chondroprogenitors. Stem Cells Translational Medicine, 2014; 3 (11): 1287 DOI: 10.5966/sctm.2014-0101

[niner]

It seems that you're saying all these different collagen types are essentially the same, but they're not. The digestive process breaks down the protein to peptides, not all the way to constituent amino acids. The peptide composition of each type of collagen is similar, but different. These peptides are absorbed from the digestive tract. Maybe you knew this already, but if proteins were completely broken down to amino acids then we could just consume amino supplements and we'd get all the benefits of proteins, but it doesn't work that way.

 

You're right that very small peptides (mostly di- and tri-peptides) get absorbed more more easily than single amino acids (although single amino acid absorption isn't terrible).  But once the small peptides are in the system, don't they have to be broken down into individual amino acids in order to be used?  Given that, and the relatively small difference in AA composition between the various collagen types, I don't see how one type could be significantly better than another.

[Logic]

It seems that you're saying all these different collagen types are essentially the same, but they're not. The digestive process breaks down the protein to peptides, not all the way to constituent amino acids. The peptide composition of each type of collagen is similar, but different. These peptides are absorbed from the digestive tract. Maybe you knew this already, but if proteins were completely broken down to amino acids then we could just consume amino supplements and we'd get all the benefits of proteins, but it doesn't work that way.

 
You're right that very small peptides (mostly di- and tri-peptides) get absorbed more more easily than single amino acids (although single amino acid absorption isn't terrible).  But once the small peptides are in the system, don't they have to be broken down into individual amino acids in order to be used?  Given that, and the relatively small difference in AA composition between the various collagen types, I don't see how one type could be significantly better than another.

 
I was going to go with:
As gelatine manufacturers most likely use all parts of all domestic animals to make their large batches of gelatine;  you will be getting some of every type imaginable.
So your body will then be able to choose the best peptides and amino acids for each job.
http://www.anti-agin...heory-of-aging/

If peptides are broken into individual amino acids in order to be used; does that mean that peptides like Epitalon etc are a ruse Niner?

[deeptrance]

 
I was going to go with:
As gelatine manufacturers most likely use all parts of all domestic animals to make their large batches of gelatine;  you will be getting some of every type imaginable.
So your body will then be able to choose the best peptides and amino acids for each job.
http://www.anti-agin...heory-of-aging/

If peptides are broken into individual amino acids in order to be used; does that mean that peptides like Epitalon etc are a ruse Niner?

 

 

"Once inside the enterocyte, the vast bulk of absorbed di- and tripeptides are digested into amino acids by cytoplasmic peptidases and exported from the cell into blood. Only a very small number of these small peptides enter blood intact."  http://www.vivo.colo...orb_aacids.html

 

That "only a very small number" comment makes it sound like it's a trivial amount of peptides that are left intact. So why would we even bother with gelatin, when we could just take a lot of glycine and proline? 

 

This page explains things more clearly, and seems to indicate that small peptides are important to the collagen absorption and biosynthesis process: http://www.thedoctor...lagen/collagen/

 

Of course that website is selling hydrolyzed collagen and thus their scientific-sounding explanations are suspect. Can someone with biochemistry background evaluate the following statement?

"In our newest version of hydrolyzed collagen, the enzyme process is done up to 6 hours on each batch. The result is very small peptides – averaging 3000 daltons – of highly biocompatible collagen. It is the long duration of hydrolysis that ensures that peptides are cleaved into these very small pieces, uniform within their range."

 

Edited by deeptrance, 04 March 2015 - 03:58 PM.

[deeptrance]

Collagen peptides do enter the bloodstream at significant levels:

 

 http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/16076145

In the present study, we identified several food-derived collagen peptides in human blood after oral ingestion of some gelatin hydrolysates. Healthy human volunteers ingested the gelatin hydrolysates (9.4-23 g) from porcine skin, chicken feet, and cartilage after 12 h of fasting. Negligible amounts of the peptide form of hydroxyproline (Hyp) were observed in human blood before the ingestion. After the oral ingestion, the peptide form of Hyp significantly increased and reached a maximum level (20-60 nmol/mL of plasma) after 1-2 h and then decreased to half of the maximum level at 4 h after the ingestion. Major constituents of food-derived collagen peptides in human serum and plasma were identified as Pro-Hyp. In addition, small but significant amounts of Ala-Hyp, Ala-Hyp-Gly, Pro-Hyp-Gly, Leu-Hyp, Ile-Hyp, and Phe-Hyp were contained.

 

 

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/10498764

...this study investigated the time course of gelatin hydrolysate absorption and its subsequent distribution in various tissues in mice (C57/BL). Absorption of (14)C labeled gelatin hydrolysate was compared to control mice administered (14)C labeled proline following intragastric application. ... In cartilage, measured radioactivity was more than twice as high following gelatin administration compared to the control group. The absorption of gelatin hydrolysate in its high molecular form, with peptides of 2.5-15kD, was detected following intestinal passage. These results demonstrate intestinal absorption and cartilage tissue accumulation of gelatin hydrolysate and suggest a potential mechanism for previously observed clinical benefits of orally administered gelatin.

 

 

Collagen peptides are not merely passive building blocks of collagen proteins, they also act as triggers for biosythesis of collagen, osteoblasts, fibroblasts, and more:

http://www.ncbi.nlm....es/PMC4057461/ 

http://www.bloodjour...so-checked=true

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/20618556

https://www.jstage.j..._3_211/_article

http://pubs.acs.org/....1021/mp300549d

 

However, as of 2011 "a cause and effect relationship has not been established between the consumption of collagen hydrolysate and maintenance of joints" according to the European Food Safety Authority's evaluation of one product's claims: http://www.efsa.euro...al/doc/2291.pdf

 

And oral supplementation with type II collagen may even trigger flare-ups in rheumatoid arthritis: http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/11072596

 

I'm not advocating for or against supplementing with collagen, but just wanted to clear up the misconception about all peptides being broken down to constituent amino acids before entering the bloodstream. This does happen with most peptides, but some remain intact and enter the bloodstream in significant amounts, an important process which leads to the stimulation of many other processes.

Edited by deeptrance, 04 March 2015 - 05:55 PM.

[deeptrance]

I don't mean to spam this thread but I really want to share this article which is extremely well-written, up-to-date, and concise in its explanation of the mechanisms by which oral collagen supplementation confers benefits, while also explaining differences in types of collagen: http://www.nutrition...smetics-4-20298

 

Excerpt: 

...orally ingested collagen can produce uneven results if it’s not the right collagen for the job. And as research reveals more about the protein’s mechanism of action in skin and its cells, both collagen suppliers and supplement manufacturers are learning which collagen forms and types make for the most effective nutricosmetic ingredients.

 

Perhaps the top priority is bioavailability. As Dockery explains, “Supplemental forms of collagen, either taken orally or applied to the skin, must cross barriers” before making themselves available to the tissues. The most imposing barrier orally ingested collagen confronts is the human gut, where digestive enzymes begin breaking down the collagen molecules into smaller peptides and amino acids for absorption through the intestinal wall. “The body must then reassemble these building blocks into proteins—both collagen and others—that our bodies need,” Dockery says.

 

But if the collagen arrives at the gut in a form too big for our digestive machinery to manage, it’s “not completely absorbed through the intestinal wall and can’t be reassembled or used by the body as collagen,” she continues. Thus, by partially hydrolyzing the collagen first—cutting it into smaller, lower-molecular-weight chunks—we “ensure the ready absorption of its components into circulation.”

 

For maximum bioavailability in nutricosmetics, Ahmad Alkayali, CEO, president, Certified Nutraceuticals (Murrieta, CA), recommends formulating with type I and III collagen peptides hydrolyzed to a molecular weight below 5,000 Daltons; by contrast, the type II collagen produced by chondrocytes and commonly used in joint-health formulations usually appears in such products at molecular weights exceeding 20,000 Daltons. Further, Alkayali says, hydrolysis should target liberation of peptide chains “rich in the key amino acids hydroxyproline and proline,” as these best stimulate fibroblast cells to produce more collagen.

 

...“each type [of collagen] has its own amino acid structure that the body recognizes for specific structural rebuilding,” Joosang Park, vice president of scientific affairs, BioCell Technology (Newport Beach, CA), cautions supplement makers against focusing too heavily on collagen type when selecting ingredients for nutricosmetic formulations.

 

Namely, Park believes that the association of collagen types I and III chiefly with skin, hair, and nails, and the primary association of type II with joint health, creates “a great degree of misunderstanding about the types of collagen found in collagen supplements.” What really matters to the consumer, he says, “is not the collagen type, but its bioavailability and efficacy.”

 

 

The take-away I get from this is that the most effective way to supplement collagen is orally, in a hydrolized form so that it has been broken down to small, hydroxyproline- and proline-rich peptides that are readily absorbed into the bloodstream. In other words, all collagen and gelatin supplements are far from equal. If anyone has found an ideal balance between price and optimization, please share that info. I'm not sure what to buy, but I'm pretty sure I don't want an over-priced brand name product with claims of miracle cures in its marketing hype.

Edited by deeptrance, 04 March 2015 - 05:52 PM.