517 replies to this topic

[niner]

Collagen peptides do enter the bloodstream at significant levels:

 

 http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/16076145

In the present study, we identified several food-derived collagen peptides in human blood after oral ingestion of some gelatin hydrolysates. Healthy human volunteers ingested the gelatin hydrolysates (9.4-23 g) from porcine skin, chicken feet, and cartilage after 12 h of fasting. Negligible amounts of the peptide form of hydroxyproline (Hyp) were observed in human blood before the ingestion. After the oral ingestion, the peptide form of Hyp significantly increased and reached a maximum level (20-60 nmol/mL of plasma) after 1-2 h and then decreased to half of the maximum level at 4 h after the ingestion. Major constituents of food-derived collagen peptides in human serum and plasma were identified as Pro-Hyp. In addition, small but significant amounts of Ala-Hyp, Ala-Hyp-Gly, Pro-Hyp-Gly, Leu-Hyp, Ile-Hyp, and Phe-Hyp were contained.

 

 

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/10498764

...this study investigated the time course of gelatin hydrolysate absorption and its subsequent distribution in various tissues in mice (C57/BL). Absorption of (14)C labeled gelatin hydrolysate was compared to control mice administered (14)C labeled proline following intragastric application. ... In cartilage, measured radioactivity was more than twice as high following gelatin administration compared to the control group. The absorption of gelatin hydrolysate in its high molecular form, with peptides of 2.5-15kD, was detected following intestinal passage. These results demonstrate intestinal absorption and cartilage tissue accumulation of gelatin hydrolysate and suggest a potential mechanism for previously observed clinical benefits of orally administered gelatin.

 

 

Collagen peptides are not merely passive building blocks of collagen proteins, they also act as triggers for biosythesis of collagen, osteoblasts, fibroblasts, and more:

http://www.ncbi.nlm....es/PMC4057461/ 

http://www.bloodjour...so-checked=true

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/20618556

https://www.jstage.j..._3_211/_article

http://pubs.acs.org/....1021/mp300549d

 

However, as of 2011 "a cause and effect relationship has not been established between the consumption of collagen hydrolysate and maintenance of joints" according to the European Food Safety Authority's evaluation of one product's claims: http://www.efsa.euro...al/doc/2291.pdf

 

And oral supplementation with type II collagen may even trigger flare-ups in rheumatoid arthritis: http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/11072596

 

I'm not advocating for or against supplementing with collagen, but just wanted to clear up the misconception about all peptides being broken down to constituent amino acids before entering the bloodstream. This does happen with most peptides, but some remain intact and enter the bloodstream in significant amounts, an important process which leads to the stimulation of many other processes.

 

I hope I didn't give the impression that peptides were fully hydrolyzed before absorption.  I meant that they would have to be fully hydrolyzed prior to being used in the synthesis of new protein.  Short peptides are known to be absorbed, in fact, even better than individual amino acids.  I thought that the 14C label experiment was going to lay all the arguments to rest, but I don't understand it.  The group that got labeled proline also got gelatin.  Why did they do that?   It sounds like fairly long oligopeptides of collagen are getting absorbed and are getting incorporated into collagen without passing through the collagen synthesis apparatus, but the mice in this experiment were dosed with 1% of their body weight in collagen.  That's a hell of a lot of collagen, more than anyone is going to use.  The question is, do the effects they see also happen with sane levels of supplementation, or is the massive dose inducing some unusual behavior?

 

Thanks for all that research, deeptrance.  That's a nice collection of papers.

[MachineGhostX]

The take-away I get from this is that the most effective way to supplement collagen is orally, in a hydrolized form so that it has been broken down to small, hydroxyproline- and proline-rich peptides that are readily absorbed into the bloodstream. In other words, all collagen and gelatin supplements are far from equal. If anyone has found an ideal balance between price and optimization, please share that info. I'm not sure what to buy, but I'm pretty sure I don't want an over-priced brand name product with claims of miracle cures in its marketing hype.

 

Bioavailability and efficacy of the supplement I mentioned in this post http://www.longecity...ndpost&p=711935 would be top notch, but is it cost effective compared to ingesting gelatin or hydrolyzed collagen?  It would help to compare the absorption of gelatin vs hydrolyzed collagen before making a decision.

Edited by MachineGhostX, 06 March 2015 - 01:49 AM.

[deeptrance]

Bioavailability and efficacy of the supplement I mentioned in this post http://www.longecity...ndpost&p=711935 would be top notch, but is it cost effective compared to ingesting gelatin or hydrolyzed collagen?  It would help to compare the absorption of gelatin vs hydrolyzed collagen before making a decision.

 

After all the reading I did last week, i decided to buy the Great Lakes collagen that someone else suggested. In addition to it claiming to be what seems to be most effective in the studies (hydrolysed collagen with lots of di- and tri-peptides), it has a fuckload of rave reviews on Amazon. With products that are mostly producing psychogenic benefits (placebo), you'll usually see a range of reviews with at least a few "it doesn't do anything" type comments. But the Great Lakes collagen has the most extremely positive rating profile of any product I've ever bought on Amazon:

 

90 5-star ratings, 11 3-star, 1 30star, 0 2-star, and 2 1-star, that's impressive. And of the 1-star reviews, one of them was just upset about it not being from organic beef. She has a beef with that.

 

Regarding the product you linked to, it doesn't appear to be related to collagen or gelatin at all. It has no proline, glycine, or peptides. It doesn't even look like a good muscle-building supplement unless you were to augment it with other things. 

Edited by deeptrance, 10 March 2015 - 10:46 PM.

[Globespy]

I think the reviews on great lakes are encouraging, but I think that this thread has arrived at a very chat conclusion:

It's all highly subjective.

I would try the great lakes and most importantly have a positive mindset that it's going to work.
Placebo is the most powerful 'compound' known to man. If your want something so badly you can actually visualize that it's already happened, then you stand a good chance of success.
Good luck!

[deeptrance]

Placebo is the most powerful 'compound' known to man. 

 

Apparently you've never tried LSD, ethanol, botulinum, or sarin.

 

But apart from your exaggeration, I agree that the placebo effect is real and robust. I've never succeeded at the type of visualization that you suggest. I have no expectations of collagen, and am mostly justifying the expense by looking at it as a kind of protein supplement. An expensive one.

[Logic]

 

Placebo is the most powerful 'compound' known to man. 

 

Apparently you've never tried LSD, ethanol, botulinum, or sarin.

 

But apart from your exaggeration, I agree that the placebo effect is real and robust. I've never succeeded at the type of visualization that you suggest. I have no expectations of collagen, and am mostly justifying the expense by looking at it as a kind of protein supplement. An expensive one.

 

 

When did a large bag of Gelatin get expensive?

[zencatholic]

 

Placebo is the most powerful 'compound' known to man. 

 

Apparently you've never tried LSD, ethanol, botulinum, or sarin.

 

But apart from your exaggeration, I agree that the placebo effect is real and robust. I've never succeeded at the type of visualization that you suggest. I have no expectations of collagen, and am mostly justifying the expense by looking at it as a kind of protein supplement. An expensive one.

 

 

I'm with you, deeptrance.  I just purchased a container of Great Lakes collagen based on the rave Amazon reviews.  If I see a quarter of the benefits I've read on the reviews, I'll be happy.
 

[YOLF]

650-660nm light promotes collagen production in skin. This might lead to sharing among tissues. It would be interesting to explore or see if anyone has any data on this. I got a LED light for $40 that'll last at least 11 years (LED expected lifespan) if I use it like I use a regular light bulb. Could be a good investment for your joints.

[wbray123]

No matter how hard I try I have been unable to get a placebo effect from a  vitamin or supplement, and I've been trying for years. Please help me, because I would love to feel better taking the right placebo!

 

I have recently started an undenatuured collagen II supplement with Chinese skullcap (which I don't necessarily endorse) from Vitamin Shoppe because it was on sale. I have been jogging and was having mild knee discomfort afterwards. After starting the supplement, I've had no such discomfort. Still, it was mild to start with. Have I finally found my effective placebo? I don't know . But I'll take more of it. I take a load of supplements and am 63 years old. Feeling great now. here's a link to the collagen:

http://www.jissn.com/content/10/1/48

Bill

[albedo]

Good link/study. Thank you. I used UCII several years ago and felt was effective, be it placebo or not.

[BigLabRat]

On the whole, I think the instructions on supplement tubs about when to take them are largely balderdash based on bits and pieces of lab science. I think if your body needs something, it will not pass up on it, whenever you take it. (OK, I suppose it makes sense, in a simplistic way, to take certain oil-soluble supplements with fat, so I do that, for form's sake. But it is not as if the body does not contain plenty of fat to use as and when it wishes to help with digestion.)
 

 

 

The need for consuming fat to extract fat-soluble nutrients has been pretty well studied at this point. Especially in the case of foods (as opposed to supplements), simultaneous intake of fats is needed to optimize the uptake of important fat-soluble nutrients. This fact has become more widely known as it has become apparent that ultralow-fat diets do not allow the dieters to absorb various nutrients. (In particular, the lycopene in tomatoes and watermelon is virtually unabsorbed unless taken with fat.)

 

This is why even anti-fat nutritionists now advise against non-fat salad dressings. (There are plenty of studies on this topic. I attach the first one I grabbed.)

 

The body may have plenty of fat stored in adipose tissue, but the only mechanism I know of for putting it into the digestive system is through bile--and bile isn't really a fat. It's hydrophilic at one end and hydrophobic at the other, so that it can emulsify fats and make them water-soluble. Fat-soluble nutrients dissolve in the fats; the bile creates micelles around the fat and dissolved nutrients, and it is these micelles that are absorbed by the small intestine. Without simultaneous ingestion of fat, absorption is minimal. 

Attached Files

•  Dietary Fat and Carotenoids.pdf   138.5KB   6 downloads

[Gerrans]

 

On the whole, I think the instructions on supplement tubs about when to take them are largely balderdash based on bits and pieces of lab science. I think if your body needs something, it will not pass up on it, whenever you take it. (OK, I suppose it makes sense, in a simplistic way, to take certain oil-soluble supplements with fat, so I do that, for form's sake. But it is not as if the body does not contain plenty of fat to use as and when it wishes to help with digestion.)
 

 

 

The need for consuming fat to extract fat-soluble nutrients has been pretty well studied at this point. Especially in the case of foods (as opposed to supplements), simultaneous intake of fats is needed to optimize the uptake of important fat-soluble nutrients. This fact has become more widely known as it has become apparent that ultralow-fat diets do not allow the dieters to absorb various nutrients. (In particular, the lycopene in tomatoes and watermelon is virtually unabsorbed unless taken with fat.)

 

This is why even anti-fat nutritionists now advise against non-fat salad dressings. (There are plenty of studies on this topic. I attach the first one I grabbed.)

 

The body may have plenty of fat stored in adipose tissue, but the only mechanism I know of for putting it into the digestive system is through bile--and bile isn't really a fat. It's hydrophilic at one end and hydrophobic at the other, so that it can emulsify fats and make them water-soluble. Fat-soluble nutrients dissolve in the fats; the bile creates micelles around the fat and dissolved nutrients, and it is these micelles that are absorbed by the small intestine. Without simultaneous ingestion of fat, absorption is minimal. 

 

 

Well, I agree with you. But I think deficiency is unlikely so long as one is consuming the fat-soluble nutrients, because the body will find a way to extract what it needs. Maybe it would be different if one was eating a non-fat diet, but that is rather hard to do, I should think.

 

In this case, we are talking about supplements, and most people would take them either with food, or within a period not long after food was consumed, so I find it hard to think of a normal situation in which no fat-soluble nutrients would be absorbed at all, because there should always be some fat available within the digestive tract. I do not think we need huge amounts of carotene, etc., so a moderate level of absorption would probably be sufficient to keep us healthy--though vegans and other restrictive eaters should definitely use some common sense.
 

[deeptrance]

I made it through two pounds of Great Lakes hydrolyzed collagen and I can attest to the fact that I have absolutely no idea if it had any impact on any aspect of my life whatsoever. I'd have let it go at that, but I purchased it using Amazon's "subscribe and save" deal, and thus I purchased (by default) a second pair of 1-lb. cans while I was on a long camping trip. I'll give it another try and see if I can detect any changes, but how can one possibly know if there is an effect when there are so many factors that go into the way we feel?

 

There may be a snowball effect with positive reviews of substances. The more positive the reviews, the more people feel hopeful about using the product. The more hopeful we are, the more we will be affected by placebo and by positive behavioral changes that we initiate as a part of of our new hopeful regimen. If I start using a product that I hope will make my knees feel better, I may concurrently become more conscious of the way I walk, or I might start doing certain exercises in order to maximize the hoped-for benefit of the product.

 

There really is no substitute for placebo-controlled randomized double-blind studies, and that's unfortunate because those are few and far between in the realm of supplements and herbs. Enter the marketing hucksters to fill in the knowledge gaps with promotional spin, and the lobbyists who keep the industry totally unregulated.

[Globespy]

Enter the marketing hucksters to fill in the knowledge gaps with promotional spin, and the lobbyists who keep the industry totally unregulated.

The last thing we want is regulation on supplements. If you have been reading up on the relentless battle (funded by the ultimate hucksters of huckstering - big pharma) to regulate ALL supplements, you will quickly realize that if they succeed it will literally kill the entire supplement industry. Every supplement will be required to go through the same FDA clinical trials as a pharmaceutical. These can run into hundreds of millions of dollars. Can you imagine a world where you can't take vitamin C or a multi-B vitamin because it's not been through the necessary FDA sanctioned clinical trials?
That's exactly what big pharma wants, a disastrous end game for mankind. And the biggest irony? The vast majority of pharmaceutical drugs are essentially naturally occurring ingredients that they engineer just enough to be allowed to trademark them under a patented name, with the slew of deadly side effects that come when you screw with nature.
Be careful what you wish for....

[deeptrance]

Every supplement will be required to go through the same FDA clinical trials as a pharmaceutical. These can run into hundreds of millions of dollars. Can you imagine a world where you can't take vitamin C or a multi-B vitamin because it's not been through the necessary FDA sanctioned clinical trials?

 

 

That's not the type of regulation I favor at all, which should be obvious based on the mere fact that I buy a lot of herbs and supplements.

 

What I'd like to see is more along the lines of what is done for food, where inspections are used in order to make sure that what is being sold is what it is purported to be, and that it's not contaminated. I've purchased plenty of sham supplements and herbs that aren't what they say they are. This is very well documented, that a large percentage of what we think we're buying is not what's on the label. Why do you trust profiteers, be they supplement peddlers or pharmaceutical corporations? They're all out for one thing, profit, and the most ruthless capitalists tend to dominate the industry because that's how capitalism works. 

 

Speaking of bullshit herbs and supplements, I've now received phony "valerian" from a second company in the last year. Does anyone know if it's a problem right now to source valerian, such that the corrupt Chinese exporters and American retailers are motivated to try to dupe us? You can pull a fast one with many other herbs, but valerian is ridiculously easy to detect, so when you get something that isn't valerian, you know you've been ripped off.

 

Also, I've been gullible enough to buy a lot of herbs from a company that labels ALL of their herbal extracts as "organic." Bullshit. I defy them to prove it. I'm not going to name names because I think that lying is rampant among these snake oil salesmen and they all loudly proclaim their innocence even when confronted with evidence of their chicanery.

[aconita]

Collagen is made of aminoacids, if serious dietary deficiencies are not the case there will be plenty of aminoacids floating around in order to build collagen, therefore supplying aminoacides it is likely not going to make any difference in collagen production.

 

The bottle neck that limits collagen synthesis is not shortage of aminoacids but other processes (enzymes, vitamins, etc...) that may be hindered by various factors (age, pathologies, lack of other nutrients, etc...).

 

Anything bigger than a certain molecular weight (not sure about the exact number) will be recognized in the stomach as in need to be decomposed in smaller bits, enzymes and hydrochloric acid will be released to do the job, it is called digestion.

 

Gelatin is not hydrolized small enough (molecular weight to high) to not trigger digestion, therefore ingesting gelatin will trigger digestion which will decompose gelatin in its constituent aminoacids, the end result is like eating a steak but with a different ratio of aminoacids and some missing altogether.

 

The idea behind ingesting hydrolized collagen as a supplement assumes that because it is much smaller hydrolized than gelatin (lower molecular weight) it may not trigger digestion, that means NOT BE DIGESTED, and cross the intestines into the blood flow more or less as it is without the need to depend by processes that may be hindered for various reasons (simply because of aging for example).

 

To a certain degree it has been proved to be the case but we are not 100% sure yet, lets say it may...

 

Those are facts and from those facts we may understand a few things:

 

- collagen molecular weight has to be low if the hope of not triggering digestion has to be realistic (it seems <2000-3000DA) but too low of a molecular weight will probably lead to a faster destruction of it by collagenase of which an over expression may be the cause of low collagen in the first place.

 

- collagen digestion has to be avoided at all costs or it is pointless, therefore collagen has to be taken at least 1 hour before and 3 hours after any food otherwise the digestion triggered by food will digest the collagen too, taking digestive enzymes will sort the same end result: collagen broken down in its aminoacids constituents.

 

- vitamin C together with collagen is not needed (regarding collagen supplementation) since vitamin C is needed for the synthesis of collagen that (hopefully) we don't need since the scope of supplement collagen is to skip its synthesis process.

 

Between porcine, bovine, poultry and marine collagens there should be not much difference (assuming molecular weight and production process are the same).

 

Type of collagen may be not very important according to the theory that if the body doesn't have to synthesize the kind supplemented can focus on synthesis of the other types needed, in other word the load on the bottle neck of the process is eased anyway, not sure this holds true...but it may make sense at least to a certain degree.

 

Collagen is cheap (about 20$/kg for the marine, the most expensive of the lot), after all there are not so many producers of collagen, they are usually gelatin producers (the real business due to the much larger food industry market), many brands but few producers usually means same product in different boxes and different prices.

 

Wishing to buy some hydrolized collagen after carefully searching I found out that the same company sells two different collagens products (different brands) of which one at almost double the price, answer from the company has been it is the exact same collagen but because one has the word "sport" in the brand it is sold at double the price, kidding I am not!

 

In my opinion ask for molecular weight and eventually if acid/heat process is used (maybe not the best) or enzymes to hydrolize, source will most likely make no difference.

 

Does it works?

 

I don't sincerely know even after 4 years religiously supplementing it, it doesn't seems to hurt and it is cheap enough to be worth the try, maybe somebody will benefit from it more than others, maybe after all hydrolized collagen doesn't really manage to get in the blood flow in a form or amount that is going to make a real difference, maybe there is some subtle mechanism at work even if only fairly short chains of peptides gets to target, I suppose we don't really know for sure yet but at least if you are going to give it a try do it properly.

 

   

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ironfistx]

After a few years I have ben taking gelatine and types 1 nand 3 collagen.  THe pain in my elbow isn't as much as before, like it doesn't hurt during normal movement , but sometimes it feels strange and I have to pop it.

 

I still cannot resally lift much with it, like anything involving holding my arm out astraight, or it will hurt.  Bench press, punsh ups, that kind of thing.

 

There are no veins that go into cartilage so any collagen supplements you use will not get there.  From my searching online I found a doctor around me that uses stem cells to repair joint issues.  I'm not sure if it actually works.  This is still kind of being understood.  He was ready to treat me but I said I would think about it omore.  I have talked to someone on kneeguru.co.uk who saw a few of these doctors for his shoulder and he said they were helpful.  One other option is called denovo nt which is basically a filler that goes into the cartilage.

 

According to those studies, fortigel can help cartilage issues, but the only product i've found with it has stevia in it and I don't like that because it makes me feel unusual.  They had mri pimages from this product and it looked like there was a different but this basically contradicts everything else that says that whatever you use cannot make it to the cartilage.

 

I think that some people tkae supplements and say it's helping my cartilage, and these people did not actually have cartilage problems in the first place.  Do supplements like these hep joint issues?  Most likely.  But there are problems that don't involve cartilage.  At this point I am still looking into things to uncover more choices for how to regenerate my padding.

 

From what I have heard prolotherapy and platelet rich plasma are beneficial for certain conditions but don't build cartilage.  They actually need the cells in them to do that.  I guess those are what can actually transform into the specific substance.

Edited by ironfistx, 24 October 2015 - 01:52 AM.

[aconita]

I don't think gelatin or collagen are really able to re build lost cartilage, in the best scenario will help to keep the existing one from getting wasted too fast which itself would be amazing enough to fully justify its use as a supplement.

 

 

[Ark]

Collagen is made of aminoacids, if serious dietary deficiencies are not the case there will be plenty of aminoacids floating around in order to build collagen, therefore supplying aminoacides it is likely not going to make any difference in collagen production.

The bottle neck that limits collagen synthesis is not shortage of aminoacids but other processes (enzymes, vitamins, etc...) that may be hindered by various factors (age, pathologies, lack of other nutrients, etc...).

Anything bigger than a certain molecular weight (not sure about the exact number) will be recognized in the stomach as in need to be decomposed in smaller bits, enzymes and hydrochloric acid will be released to do the job, it is called digestion.

Gelatin is not hydrolized small enough (molecular weight to high) to not trigger digestion, therefore ingesting gelatin will trigger digestion which will decompose gelatin in its constituent aminoacids, the end result is like eating a steak but with a different ratio of aminoacids and some missing altogether.

The idea behind ingesting hydrolized collagen as a supplement assumes that because it is much smaller hydrolized than gelatin (lower molecular weight) it may not trigger digestion, that means NOT BE DIGESTED, and cross the intestines into the blood flow more or less as it is without the need to depend by processes that may be hindered for various reasons (simply because of aging for example).

To a certain degree it has been proved to be the case but we are not 100% sure yet, lets say it may...

Those are facts and from those facts we may understand a few things:

- collagen molecular weight has to be low if the hope of not triggering digestion has to be realistic (it seems <2000-3000DA) but too low of a molecular weight will probably lead to a faster destruction of it by collagenase of which an over expression may be the cause of low collagen in the first place.

- collagen digestion has to be avoided at all costs or it is pointless, therefore collagen has to be taken at least 1 hour before and 3 hours after any food otherwise the digestion triggered by food will digest the collagen too, taking digestive enzymes will sort the same end result: collagen broken down in its aminoacids constituents.

- vitamin C together with collagen is not needed (regarding collagen supplementation) since vitamin C is needed for the synthesis of collagen that (hopefully) we don't need since the scope of supplement collagen is to skip its synthesis process.

Between porcine, bovine, poultry and marine collagens there should be not much difference (assuming molecular weight and production process are the same).

Type of collagen may be not very important according to the theory that if the body doesn't have to synthesize the kind supplemented can focus on synthesis of the other types needed, in other word the load on the bottle neck of the process is eased anyway, not sure this holds true...but it may make sense at least to a certain degree.

Collagen is cheap (about 20$/kg for the marine, the most expensive of the lot), after all there are not so many producers of collagen, they are usually gelatin producers (the real business due to the much larger food industry market), many brands but few producers usually means same product in different boxes and different prices.

Wishing to buy some hydrolized collagen after carefully searching I found out that the same company sells two different collagens products (different brands) of which one at almost double the price, answer from the company has been it is the exact same collagen but because one has the word "sport" in the brand it is sold at double the price, kidding I am not!

In my opinion ask for molecular weight and eventually if acid/heat process is used (maybe not the best) or enzymes to hydrolize, source will most likely make no difference.

Does it works?

I don't sincerely know even after 4 years religiously supplementing it, it doesn't seems to hurt and it is cheap enough to be worth the try, maybe somebody will benefit from it more than others, maybe after all hydrolized collagen doesn't really manage to get in the blood flow in a form or amount that is going to make a real difference, maybe there is some subtle mechanism at work even if only fairly short chains of peptides gets to target, I suppose we don't really know for sure yet but at least if you are going to give it a try do it properly.

Try Cissus

[Maxpower]

Thanks for the valuable information with regards to collagen digestion. With regards to the comment about how collagen should not be taken just before ot after meals (as the collagen will be digested), does the same hold true for Glucosamine, Chondroiten and Natual Eggshel Membrane? Will these substances also be digested into ineffective substances if taken with food?

[aconita]

Glucosamine, chondroitin and eggshell membranes are recommended to be taken with food in order to be better absorbed.

[xxxxxxxx]

even if you find a miracle substance that does miracle stuff, you can't get it where it needs to be in your cartilage. Cartilage does not have a blood supply and thus no natural ways to repair itself.

 

Cartilage repair or replacement is probably in the top 5 biomedical engineering challenges. We can't grow the natural stuff very well, in or ex vivo, and synthetic replacements just plain suck. 

 

[mildly off topic fun fact] I had a biomedical engineering professor whose lab made some headway in that they work with the knowledge that tissue (pretty much any tissue) growing in vats needs physical signals to grow properly. You need to pulse the fluid in the bioreactor to resemble the natural ebb and flow of heart-pumped blood, for example. The body is NOT just a chemical soup or even construction project, it is extremely complex. I see it on this forum time after time that people don't respect this. Too much "x chemical does something useful in study. Therefore I need to eat x to have benefits"

[sthira]

even if you find a miracle substance that does miracle stuff, you can't get it where it needs to be in your cartilage. Cartilage does not have a blood supply and thus no natural ways to repair itself.

Cartilage repair or replacement is probably in the top 5 biomedical engineering challenges. We can't grow the natural stuff very well, in or ex vivo, and synthetic replacements just plain suck.

[mildly off topic fun fact] I had a biomedical engineering professor whose lab made some headway in that they work with the knowledge that tissue (pretty much any tissue) growing in vats needs physical signals to grow properly. You need to pulse the fluid in the bioreactor to resemble the natural ebb and flow of heart-pumped blood, for example. The body is NOT just a chemical soup or even construction project, it is extremely complex. I see it on this forum time after time that people don't respect this. Too much "x chemical does something useful in study. Therefore I need to eat x to have benefits"

You're exactly right. You can't just eat collagen or eggshells or even inject stem cells into torn avascular cartilege and expect regrowth. If it has no blood supply, no building blocks no matter how chemically sophisticated and precise will get to where they need to go. Just ain't gonna happen.

Columbia University is working on 3D printed menisci scaffolds (for busted knees). These print jobs are then infused with recombinant proteins. Two types of proteins then attract your own existing stem cells from your body, and they induce stem cells to form cartilege tissue even where there is no blood supply. It's done outside the body.

One of the hang ups in this procedure is that the proteins must be released in specific areas of the scaffold in specific orders. This is complicated. But it can be done, and then the thing is reinserted into the damaged joint. It's personalized to your own specific joint -- we're all shaped differently and we're all unique beautiful snowflakes.

In 11 sheep knees it seems to work well: eventually the 3D scaffold dissolves and the sheep can romp the fields again with presumably pain free menisci. So next up are human trials.

Unfortunately, eating vitamins and expensive collagen powders to regrow avascular cartilage won't regrow avascular cartilage. Sad news. Trust me, I've tried everything -- save your money if you're trying to regrow cartilege that has no blood supply.

[aconita]

From wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.../wiki/Cartilage):

 

"Cartilage does not contain blood vessels (avascular) or nerves (aneural). The chondrocytes are supplied by diffusion. The compression of the articular cartilage or flexion of the elastic cartilage generates the pumping action, which assists the diffusion to the chondrocytes. Compared to other connective tissues, cartilage has a very slow turnover and is not easy to repair."

 

It is a very slow turnover but even without blood vessels there is a process of rebuilding going on.

 

There is no scientific evidence (AFAIK ) of any supplement regrowing cartilage but that doesn't rule out the possibility...or this entire forum about life extension would be pointless.   

 

Providing the best environment will unlikely cause any arm and who knows...miracles are rare but sometimes do happen.

[xxxxxxxx]

^of course there are possibilities! It's just people on here eat a few spoonfuls of jello and expect to actually feel different.

[aconita]

By the way, collagen is not expensive, marine collagen (the most expensive one and by no means proved superior or better than any other collagen sources) goes for about 20 euro/kg, if it cost much more than that it is a rip off, at 10gr/day it makes 73 euro/year or 0,2 euro/day.

 

Collagen as a supplement has other goals than just regrowing cartilages, it should help with any tissue in the body since it is everywhere.

 

I don't think collagen as miracle supplement, there are probably more interesting ones to evaluate but lets keep it in perspective.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Danail Bulgaria]

Since I have some medical background, I can tell you, that you may reach the cartilage directly through arthroscopy or by simply injecting whatever you decide in the joint cavity with a simple sterile syringe and a needle, that you can have from the local pharmacy. If you learn the methodics, and if you are brave enough, you can even do this by yourself.

 

But then .. well... you are entering in the realm of the real medicine and your have to turn back from your idea of simply supplementing collagen through the mouth, anf start facing the traditional medicine again.

 

And there is another drawback - regrowing cartilage inside joints is very hard for the current medicine (2015).

 

So, you are kind of no way out - you cant regrow the cartilage neither with traditional medicine, nor with kretenisms.

 

What I would adivice you, is to help if you can, for the developing of the stem cells research - they already can make the entire cartilage from stem cells grown on a scaffold. Transplanting it has to be nothing special for the current orthopedics surgery. If your cartilage is severely damaged beyond repairment, then theoretically it is possible for you to replace it in the near future, or maybe even today if there is a study to participate as an experimental animal  

[ironfistx]

Are Foritgel's claims that they renegerate cartilage tissue in humans garbage, then?

 

http://gelita.com/fortigel

 

 

Edited by ironfistx, 03 November 2015 - 06:59 PM.

[xxxxxxxx]

^a few cells growing in a petri dish is so not equal to the effects in a human body

[Logic]

The above pics were taken with a delayed Gadolinium Enhanced Magnetic Resonance Imaging of Cartilage [dGEMRIC] device which enables one to view cartilage 'in-vivo' so to speak.  

 

Here's a nice write-up:

http://www.ergo-log....upplements.html