517 replies to this topic

[Logic]

It seems you have to take a lot of gelatin to get the 8x spike. Could you tell me how much you take? Also, do you take it in its pure form(capsules) or do you eat the gelatin?

 

I generally take 20g before bed and/or exercise as that is the size of the sachets it comes in here. (Sometimes 2 sachets)

I may not get the full 8X HGH boost, but I figure I still get some increase and 50+ (I'm 100+ kg) grams is a lot!
As most of the effect is due to Glycene IIRC you may want to look here:
http://www.longecity...e-be-taking-it/

 

I don't find it necessary to take it all the time;  my knees are now fine and I have gone months without, without issue.

 

As the more hydrolyzed gelatin is the better it seems to work I add it  to water and just drinking it:

• With cold water the powder does not dissolve well at all and your end up with gelatin grains stuck to your teeth. 
• With boiling water you end up with a sticky jelly in the bottom of the cup.
• Warm water and a lot of stirring works best.

I wonder if adding the vit C/Ascorbic Acid to the mix might help it dissolve more,  but don't like the way Ascorbic Acid makes my teeth feel.

[motorcitykid]

 

It seems you have to take a lot of gelatin to get the 8x spike. Could you tell me how much you take? Also, do you take it in its pure form(capsules) or do you eat the gelatin?

 

I generally take 20g before bed and/or exercise as that is the size of the sachets it comes in here. (Sometimes 2 sachets)

I may not get the full 8X HGH boost, but I figure I still get some increase and 50+ (I'm 100+ kg) grams is a lot!
As most of the effect is due to Glycene IIRC you may want to look here:
http://www.longecity...e-be-taking-it/

 

I don't find it necessary to take it all the time;  my knees are now fine and I have gone months without, without issue.

 

As the more hydrolyzed gelatin is the better it seems to work I add it  to water and just drinking it:

• With cold water the powder does not dissolve well at all and your end up with gelatin grains stuck to your teeth. 
• With boiling water you end up with a sticky jelly in the bottom of the cup.
• Warm water and a lot of stirring works best.

I wonder if adding the vit C/Ascorbic Acid to the mix might help it dissolve more,  but don't like the way Ascorbic Acid makes my teeth feel.

 

 

I take approx 4 grams of glycine along with my breakfast(5 egg whites) which carries a heavy load of methionine.

 

I take the 2 grams along with my next highest methionine containing meal of the day.

 

Will be adding gelatin, looking online now.

 

What connection does glycene IIRC have with glycine? Couldn't find much info on glycene IIRC and the info I did find was pretty vague.

 

Also, Swanson carries cissus http://www.swansonvi...CFZYXHwodNf8GoQ

 

Edited by motorcitykid, 14 November 2015 - 06:47 PM.

[aconita]

This article is interesting even if comes from a seller

 

 http://www.thedoctor...egory/collagen/

 

This pdf is from a France producer about their collagen but is supported by quite a few studies, focused mainly on skin still has relevance to cartilage in my view:

 

http://www.parmentie...peptan4skin.pdf

 

By the way Peptan is less than 20 euro/kg 

 

http://www.1000liter...sat-pulver.html

 

The site is a bit messy, they carry 2kg packs too (maybe even bigger) at better price but I can't find them in the site.

 

Peptan is 5000Da, maybe not as good as 2000-3000Da but evidence that gets well absorbed seems to be there. 

[aconita]

Actually I realizes I have been given a wrong information, upon my request they sent me a certificate of analysis of the Peptan 5000 which of course is 5000Da, what they sell is Peptan 2000 which according to Russelot site (the producer) is 2000Da.

 

It looks like they don't know what they sell...but price is good and collagen is very good at 2000Da enzymatic hydrolization.

 

http://www.peptan.co...iple-solutions/

 

 

[Logic]

 

 

It seems you have to take a lot of gelatin to get the 8x spike. Could you tell me how much you take? Also, do you take it in its pure form(capsules) or do you eat the gelatin?

 

I generally take 20g before bed and/or exercise as that is the size of the sachets it comes in here. (Sometimes 2 sachets)

I may not get the full 8X HGH boost, but I figure I still get some increase and 50+ (I'm 100+ kg) grams is a lot!
As most of the effect is due to Glycene IIRC you may want to look here:
http://www.longecity...e-be-taking-it/

 

I don't find it necessary to take it all the time;  my knees are now fine and I have gone months without, without issue.

 

As the more hydrolyzed gelatin is the better it seems to work I add it  to water and just drinking it:

• With cold water the powder does not dissolve well at all and your end up with gelatin grains stuck to your teeth. 
• With boiling water you end up with a sticky jelly in the bottom of the cup.
• Warm water and a lot of stirring works best.

I wonder if adding the vit C/Ascorbic Acid to the mix might help it dissolve more,  but don't like the way Ascorbic Acid makes my teeth feel.

 

 

I take approx 4 grams of glycine along with my breakfast(5 egg whites) which carries a heavy load of methionine.

 

I take the 2 grams along with my next highest methionine containing meal of the day.

 

Will be adding gelatin, looking online now.

 

What connection does glycene IIRC have with glycine? Couldn't find much info on glycene IIRC and the info I did find was pretty vague.

 

Also, Swanson carries cissus http://www.swansonvi...CFZYXHwodNf8GoQ

 

 

It looks like Glycene is just a miss-spell.  Its actually Glycine.

 

As Gelatin is 35% Glycine you get 17.5 g from a 50g dose.
As you are already getting 6 grams you need 11.5g of Glycine = about 33g Gelatin to get the full, 'cartilage building' 8X HGH spike.

 

You may want to do some research on the active ingredient/s in Cissus and base your product choice on that.
I  

Edited by Logic, 19 November 2015 - 03:41 PM.

[aconita]

The collagen in bone broth is good for your joints. Unlikely. Bone broth does contain collagen, a protein that contains amino acids essential for rebuilding bone, connective tissue, and skin. But just because you consume collagen doesn't mean that your body will use it to build bones. Through digestion, Patel explains, your body will break down the collagen and use its amino acids wherever they are needed. Furthermore, most of the health claims made about collagen in bone broth rely on studies of individual nutrients in supplement form. For example: The website Paleoleap claims that for patients with rheumatoid arthritis, chicken collagen bone broth could "help stop the autoimmune response in its tracks." But the study the piece links to as proof isn't about bone broth at all—rather, it's about patients who were given pills containing pure chicken collagen for three months straight. "You'd have to eat a whole lot of bone broth to get as much collagen as is in supplements," says Patel.

 

http://www.motherjon..._eid=dfe890558e

 

[sthira]

I went through twenty big green cans of Great Lakes collagen over a two-year period. It did nothing demonstrable for me and my damaged cartilage.

Desperate Hail Mary: I'm thinking about trying the peptides TB-500 and BPC-157. Ceretropic sells them. I've been reading BB forums, and generally reviews are suspiciously glowing, happy, side effect free. Red flags. I'm concerned about the potential cancer risks. Anyone have any thoughts about these generally under-studied peptides for healing joints?

[aconita]

Great Lakes collagen is not enzymatically hydrolyzed (but acid and heat which are not optimal) and molecular weight is not specified, likely because is not that low (low is expensive, time consuming, more difficult and AFAIK needs enzymes), price is kind of expensive too.

 

I am not saying the lack of results you experienced are due to the above but certainly you did not get the best chances.

 

If the molecular weight is too high and/or you take the supplement too close to meals it is very unlikely to work because it will just be digested in aminoacids, unless your diet is seriously lacking of full spectrum essential aminoacids supplementing a collagen that gets digested is unlikely to make a dent, a steak will have the same effects as stated in the article about bone broth I reported in my previous post (I posted it in order to underline this concept indeed, even if it may seem out of topic).

 

Anyway I personally think collagen supplementation only contributes to create a favorable environment for cartilage repair, alone is unlikely it will deliver dramatic results. 

 

 

 

[niner]

I think there's a lot of confusion over the definition of "damage".  If you have joint tissue that is completely torn, severed, or worn through to the bone, I think that none of this hippy-science is going to help.  On the other hand, if you have a fracture instead of a tear, maybe it can be healed.  If you have subtle damage to your cartilage, maybe a nutrient or chemical approach has a chance of helping.  Subtle damage can still cause pain, so maybe the many reports of joint pain improved by hydrolyzed collagen are due to cases of more mild forms of damage.  I have a couple damaged (thinner than they should be) discs in my neck.  After taking hydrolyzed collagen for some amount of time, I realized that my neck wasn't bothering me as much any more.  Maybe I picked up a fraction of a millimeter in thickness?  Who knows, but I like the outcome. 

 

Sorry to hear about your knee, sthira.  What do the docs want to do to you?  Total replacement?  My first though was that that's not compatible with hard core athletic pursuits, but maybe I'm being too conservative there.  You were doing some pretty extreme dance, so it would probably be pushing the envelope.  I hope something works out for you.

[motorcitykid]

Great Lakes collagen is not enzymatically hydrolyzed (but acid and heat which are not optimal) and molecular weight is not specified, likely because is not that low (low is expensive, time consuming, more difficult and AFAIK needs enzymes), price is kind of expensive too.

 

I am not saying the lack of results you experienced are due to the above but certainly you did not get the best chances.

 

If the molecular weight is too high and/or you take the supplement too close to meals it is very unlikely to work because it will just be digested in aminoacids, unless your diet is seriously lacking of full spectrum essential aminoacids supplementing a collagen that gets digested is unlikely to make a dent, a steak will have the same effects as stated in the article about bone broth I reported in my previous post (I posted it in order to underline this concept indeed, even if it may seem out of topic).

 

Anyway I personally think collagen supplementation only contributes to create a favorable environment for cartilage repair, alone is unlikely it will deliver dramatic results. 

 

Molecular weight of Great Lakes hydrolyzed gelatin is 5000 Daltons

http://www.greatlake...sumer/noMSG.php

 

[aconita]

Oooops...it seems somehow I missed that page on their site!

 

Thanks Motorcitykid for pointing it out!

 

Well, it changes things a bit because even if 5000Da may not be optimal is probably not too bad.

 

They say it is enzymatically hydrolyzed but probably starting from gelatin that is obtained by heat/acid processes, I am not sure if that's the case for all producers, 

 

I still think Peptan 2000 may be a better collagen at a better price but honestly I can't stretch it to state that will necessarily deliver dramatically superior results.

 

 

[platypus]

Desperate Hail Mary: I'm thinking about trying the peptides TB-500 and BPC-157. Ceretropic sells them. I've been reading BB forums, and generally reviews are suspiciously glowing, happy, side effect free. Red flags. I'm concerned about the potential cancer risks. Anyone have any thoughts about these generally under-studied peptides for healing joints?

My feeling is that any extra cancer risk from a 1-2 month course of relatively harmless must be too small to measure. I would definitely try them myself if I had problems with healing. 

[Maxpower]

I thought TB500 was for repairing tendon or ligament damage. Have the been reports of it repairing cartilage?

[sthira]

I thought TB500 was for repairing tendon or ligament damage. Have the been reports of it repairing cartilage?

You're right. I've seen nothing indicating either peptide would generate avascular cartilage. That's why I'm pausing. I just don't know what to do. I don't want more surgery, so I'll just remain suffering until I can't anymore. I'm not unique with this injury. It's very common.

[aconita]

Did you ever considered Prolozone therapy?

 

http://www.journalof...iminating-pain/

[sthira]

Did you ever considered Prolozone therapy?

http://www.journalof...iminating-pain/

Thanks for the idea. I'd forgotten about this one. I'll read up. :-)

[mikey]

I have third party verification via my knee doctor and the before and after MRI's that were done on my right knee that Prolozone therapy regrows knee cartilage, as well as other types of cartilage tissues.

 

Further, I know or know of over a dozen people, including my dentist's father that have experienced success with Prolozone,

 

Success means pain free and being able to run again.

 

My dentist thanks me every time I see him and has sent a few dozen people to get Prolozone injections.

[sthira]

I have third party verification via my knee doctor and the before and after MRI's that were done on my right knee that Prolozone therapy regrows knee cartilage, as well as other types of cartilage tissues.

Further, I know or know of over a dozen people, including my dentist's father that have experienced success with Prolozone,

Success means pain free and being able to run again.

My dentist thanks me every time I see him and has sent a few dozen people to get Prolozone injections.

Very cool! Any idea what substances were used in your prolozone shots?

[mikey]

First the doc injects B12,hyaluronic acid and some other nutrients required by fibroblasts to do their job in the growth of cartilage.

 

Leaving the syringe in the knee he quickly injects about 30 CC's of ozone.

 

We are breathing O2, The third O naturally is liberated, at which point fibroblasts have lots of "O" fuel to grow cartilage.

 

Wait 2 weeks for cartilage growth and repeat. I and most friends have needed 3- 4 injections to be pain-free.

 

While I'm between injections I take UCII, glucosamine, vitamin C, chondroitin, etc,,, just to add some raw materials.

 

Here'/s some more info,

Edited by mikey, 26 December 2015 - 04:59 AM.

[Astroid]

Thanks to Mikey's information previously I tried Prolotherapy for numerous joint issues starting in January of 2015.

 

1st was my pinched nerve in the lower back (upper right hip) that had caused pain and spasms in both sides of the lower back, and lower right ribs for some 10 months.  Within 3 weeks 100% of the left side was normal, 70% of the right and rib area.  After a second session the ribs are even better. She used sugar for the injections. 

 

2nd was around the left knee, as the hip had thrown my walk off.. and the tendons and ligaments were in pain.  Using Ozone I got some 90% relief from 1 injection.

 

3ed was my left shoulder ball joint..using Ozone it hurt like made for about 4 days. I could hardly lift anything with that arm.  After a second session I'd say there is 80% improvement.  

At the same time we injected the trap/neck trigger points and the results were amazing for a chronic pain and spams situation since 2005 from a bad operation. I'd been having the nerves burned on a regular basis or trigger point injections. Some 6 months later no more pain Rx, trigger point injections and fewer visit to the chiropractor.    

 

 

[Nate-2004]

This article downplays the role of collagen supplements as a solution to various reasons for our lack thereof:

 

https://www.scienceb...for-joint-pain/

 

SBM is largely dismissive of supplements and augmentives (as I would call them) and biased in that direction but it makes a good point.

 

I've been trying collagen for about 120 days now, with few if any results in terms of both back pain, muscle recovery and as far as skin quality and elasticity improvements that I notice are visible in photos, I attribute to other things I'm doing (topical applications, NR, pterostilbene, etc), not collagen supplements.  Though this article would disagree with me.

 

In the end, I'm waiting on stem cell therapy that is accessible instead of being restricted by the hesitance of so called bioethicists and hyper-regulation by the FDA. Hopefully CRISPR comes out ahead of all this since you can now buy kits online for 140 bucks if you know what you're doing, but no one knows which genes help to accomplish what yet.

 

Examine discusses type II and it looks like there is very little evidence, much of which is inconsistent, and also not enough research to conclude anything.

Edited by Nate-2004, 29 September 2016 - 06:29 PM.

[aribadabar]

 few if any results in terms of both back pain, muscle recovery and as far as skin quality and elasticity improvements

 

Not a cartilage data point but here are my 2c ...

Whenever my wife takes Jarrow's HA supplement 2 caps on an empty stomach (with 500mg Quercetin to inhibit Hyaluronidase)  her face, which is otherwise prone to acne (she is 35 but looks 25 at the most  ), clears up within a week and stays very clear and healthy as long as she keeps taking it. Upon cessation, the situation deteriorates in due course.

Edited by aribadabar, 29 September 2016 - 06:49 PM.

[Nate-2004]

I was taking Sports Research collagen peptides and still am, at night, on an empty stomach. I sometimes take it first thing in the morning on an empty stomach. Evidence for skin improvement is inconsistent.

 

I apply a hyaluronic acid gel I made (thanks to acondita's recipe) to my face once a day. I put the topical form of vitamin C in it as well as n-acetyl-carnosine (as an experiment) and before each application I mix it with nicotinamide riboside.  The gel isn't as "gel like" as acondita's recipe as that left flakes on my skin. I watered it down to half the amount which seems to work a lot better.

 

So far it's only been about 35 days. No adverse reactions but also no notable improvement as far as reduction in smile wrinkles, though my skin looks pretty good. Elasticity tests put it at 25 to 30 still even though I have much deeper wrinkles when I smile than I did when I was 25 or 30.  What's missing isn't collagen I don't think, it's bone and subcutaneous fat that gets lost.  

 

As far as pain goes, back to the thread's topic, the lower back pain I continue to experience and in fact, I'm getting more cramps than usual lately for some reason. I don't know what's causing it because of my shotgun approach to all this anti-aging. It could be the collagen, but there's only one way to find out and that's to wash out on the collagen for a month or two and see what changes happen.

 

Has your wife tried topical HA instead?

 

I've taken quercetin but I stopped when I learned it inhibits SIRT1 and wasn't necessary to take continuously for CD38 inhibition, given the mechanism of action. Only necessary to take for a time period once every few months perhaps.

[aconita]

When we consume collagen, usually in the form of food, the long chain proteins are broken down during digestion to their original amino acids. Only then can they be absorbed. Once absorbed, these amino acids are available as building blocks to support collagen synthesis throughout the body. So from a dietary perspective, your body doesn’t care (and can’t tell) if you ate a collagen supplement, cheese, quinoa, beef, or chick peas — they’re all sources of protein, and indistinguishable by the time they hit the bloodstream. The body doesn’t treat amino acids derived from collagen any differently than any other protein source. For this reason, the idea that collagen supplementation can be an effective treatment for joint pain, osteoarthritis, or any other condition, is highly implausible, if not impossible in principle.

True, in facts supplementing gelatin, which is a form of only slightly hydrolyzed collagen, does probably exactly that: ends up broken down to single aminoacids by digestion and is not much different than eating a piece of meat.

 

The lack of collagen when ageing is not due to lack of building material (aminoacids) but to a faulty reassembling of the building materials.

 

Hydrolized collagen, which is a form of highly hydrolyzed collagen, comes in short enough chains of aminoacids to pass the intact the digestion (actually they shouldn't trigger the digestion in the first place) and get in the bloodstream.   

 

How long or short those aminoacids chains are is critical since too long (not hydrolyzed enough, high molecular weight) will trigger digestion which will break them down to single aminoacids and we are back to square one...too short (too much hydrolyzed, low molecular weight) and they are too close to single aminoacids, again back to square one.

 

The molecular weight (the degree of hydrolyzation) is therefore of great importance, a product that doesn't specify the molecular weight can be anything.

 

This at least is the theory behind collagen supplementation which is positively supported by research.

 

Dosage in research is usually 5g twice a day in a fasted state (1200mg is a joke).

 

Price for top quality hydrolyzed collagen at about 2KDa (which seems to be the ideal molecular weight for oral supplementation) is about 20$/kg.

 

I am taking it since 4-5 years now without skipping a single day, does it any good?

 

I don't know.

 

Nothing dramatic for sure, but is cheap enough to deserve a chance.

 

By the way HA gel has to be not too thick, actually a bit runny is better for absorption, HA molecular weight determines the best percentage in order to get the right consistency, low molecular weight yields a runnier gel while higher molecular weight tends to yield thicker gels therefore shifting the ideal percentage towards about 1% instead of the 1.5-2% of lower molecular weights.

 

[Nate-2004]

I started with Sports Research brand but switched to the Bulksupplements brand since they've got a better reputation. I don't know what the molecular weight of each component of the blend should be. I know it contains so many mg of hydroxproline, glycine and proline as well as other hydrolized aminos (see image). I'm wondering how I can find out the details.

 

Thanks for all that detail though. I wish examine.com would post a review article about it. It does seem that there is a lack of sufficient research compared to the robust level of research that other supplements and augmentives get.

 

Edited by Nate-2004, 29 September 2016 - 10:18 PM.

[aconita]

If they don't specify the molecular weight you have to ask them, there is no other way to know it.

 

The aminoacids profile says nothing and probably is not that different from other brands, anyway is not what really matters.

[aribadabar]

Has your wife tried topical HA instead?

 

I've taken quercetin but I stopped when I learned it inhibits SIRT1 and wasn't necessary to take continuously for CD38 inhibition, given the mechanism of action. Only necessary to take for a time period once every few months perhaps.

 

Yes, she has - it helps somewhat but nothing compared to the HA oral supplementation.

 

As to quercetin, I disagree - you can't expect something, even as long-lasting as C60oo, to work for months without re-dosing.

I read that Q also suppresses the thyroid :

 

 

 

I gave the 2-star rating because of the lack of transparency regarding what quercetin is known to do. Quercetin has many beneficial properties, including those outlined in the reviews above. I a little-known effect though, is that it is also a thyroid suppressor. I am a competitive, natural bodybuilder who used quercetin for about a year. I began to gain some bodyfat, but thought this was only an artifact of a very busy school year where training frequency wasn't optimal, even though diet was spot-on. I began to suspect the quercetin was a culprit when I could not drop stubborn bodyfat in ways that worked many times before. As I dug into the pubmed literature, I found scores of papers that not only showed the anti-inflammatory, cancer-fighting benefits of quercetin, but several published characterized its potent anti-thyroid-properties and how it is even being used as a thyroid suppression tool for hyperthyroid in animals and humans. Don't take my word for it; go use google scholar and view the study summaries yourself. I quit the quercetin and lost 13 lbs of fat between 23 June and 17 July, with no cardio, calorie cutting, or any other significant changes. I would really like to find out what the optimal dose is that I could take that would not affect thyroid, but I do not have that knowledge yet. I know it occurs naturally in some foods and maybe I will have to settle for just that. Another lesson learned that I "bought" here is that I need to do much better research on each supplement I add. Even when it seems so great in some literature, there may be other literature that highlights undesirable effects. I think the supplement should have this on the label somehow, since the effect is so well documented.

 

but I am not convinced is all that bad so I will continue taking it for the time being. In fact, I megadose it as per the senolytic protocol discussed in another thread.

[Nate-2004]

As to quercetin, I disagree - you can't expect something, even as long-lasting as C60oo, to work for months without re-dosing.

 

 

I read that Q also suppresses the thyroid :

 

 

 

I gave the 2-star rating because of the lack of transparency regarding what quercetin is known to do. Quercetin has many beneficial properties, including those outlined in the reviews above. I a little-known effect though, is that it is also a thyroid suppressor. I am a competitive, natural bodybuilder who used quercetin for about a year. I began to gain some bodyfat, but thought this was only an artifact of a very busy school year where training frequency wasn't optimal, even though diet was spot-on. I began to suspect the quercetin was a culprit when I could not drop stubborn bodyfat in ways that worked many times before. As I dug into the pubmed literature, I found scores of papers that not only showed the anti-inflammatory, cancer-fighting benefits of quercetin, but several published characterized its potent anti-thyroid-properties and how it is even being used as a thyroid suppression tool for hyperthyroid in animals and humans. Don't take my word for it; go use google scholar and view the study summaries yourself. I quit the quercetin and lost 13 lbs of fat between 23 June and 17 July, with no cardio, calorie cutting, or any other significant changes. I would really like to find out what the optimal dose is that I could take that would not affect thyroid, but I do not have that knowledge yet. I know it occurs naturally in some foods and maybe I will have to settle for just that. Another lesson learned that I "bought" here is that I need to do much better research on each supplement I add. Even when it seems so great in some literature, there may be other literature that highlights undesirable effects. I think the supplement should have this on the label somehow, since the effect is so well documented.

 

but I am not convinced is all that bad so I will continue taking it for the time being. In fact, I megadose it as per the senolytic protocol discussed in another thread.

 

 

The reason it works without redosing for months, for CD38 inhibition at least, is because of the mechanism of action, it inhibits CD38 via synolytics, or so the hypothesis goes. So it's not about effects so much as it having done its job of killing of whatever senescent cells it targets in your endothelium at the time. As senescent cells begin to build up again, you can take it again. It's not good to take over long periods to my knowledge. Again this is all hypothesis. 

 

I can't say much about inhibiting hyluronidase or its mechanism of action there.

 

Back on topic: I checked with BulkSupplements and they don't have a fact sheet on the molecular weight of their bovine derived hydrolyzed collagen. I read that it should be somewhere around 1.5 - 2.5 kDa.  They have fish and chicken derived collagen as well. I'm not sure which one is ideal.

 

Their collagen has a strange taste, not sure if it should or shouldn't have a taste nor how you can tell what its molecular weight is.

Edited by Nate-2004, 29 September 2016 - 11:15 PM.

[sthira]

For what it's worth, I've found all substances except ibuprofen and (deep maybe) curcumin useless for "low back pain..." I'm a professional dancer (ballet) and yogic backbends will help cure your lower back pain. You don't want to lose your lumbar and dorsal spine flexibility and strength as you age. Strengthening your core through yoga will also help.

Collagen sups? Herbal anti-inflammatories? A useless waste of money in my experience.

For your facial skin beauty I also have dark feelings regarding "dermatology" and liken it to "psychiatry" both of which appear to me examples of "medicine" (if we call them that) moving backwards.

[Nate-2004]

You may be right about collagen, I don't know about anti-inflammatories, herbal or not. Ibuprofen doesn't help much either. I do core strengthening exercises pretty consistently and it hasn't helped either, but I'm not a fan of yoga, especially given my embarrassing case of essential tremor and classes are expensive, though I do work out 4 times a week with pretty intense aerobic exercise.

 

What I disagree with mainly is dermatology or skin care being anything like psychiatry. My skin has dramatically improved over the past few months just based on photographs, and I don't know what to attribute it to really since I'm trying a number of things.  I think the state of dermatology is at a stand still for the moment because stem cell and CRISPR tech is the only thing capable of getting to the next level, whether it's considered cosmetic "surgery" or not. Personally I'm hoping for a broader, unprotected free market of do-it-yourself stem cell therapy, much like the CRISPR kits. Liz Parrish said it best when she said that "bioethics are seeped in the hesitation of using new therapeutics." I think dermatologists and cosmetic surgeons are going to cling to and lobby for the protection rackets of state licensing to protect themselves from the competition of that kind of do it yourself market.

Edited by Nate-2004, 30 September 2016 - 03:42 AM.