517 replies to this topic

[StanG]

I take my Gelatine (right now it's Knox but it will be Great Western) twice daily - on an empty stomach 1 1/2 hours before breakfast and 3 hours after lunch. I use a 12 oz glass filled almost to the top with water and put in Splenda. Then I microwave it for 23 seconds which gives it a sweet taste. I then add a heaping tablespoon of gelatin and stir. I started this 3 months before going to Europe for a month and it helped greatly but the walking on hard and the hilly countryside started my knee pain back up by the middle of the second week.

 

It took less than two weeks back home but the only pain I sometimes feel is when I wake up in the morning; however, this is easily stopped by moving my leg from the knee down back and forth a few times.

 

I also, 5 minutes after taking the gelatin, use 2 five lb ankle weights and swing my legs back and forth for 10 minutes.     

 

I also take UCII and a combo type 1,2 and 3 collagen. This board has been very helpful to me.

 

Thank you all!

[StanG]

I meant Great Lakes

[PeaceAndProsperity]

Rich Piana does both local growth hormone injections into his knee as well as having had stem cell injections into his knee for treating knee pain. He claims it didn't work and I do believe that. I wonder, is replicative cell senescence the issue? Do young people get knee problems with missing cartilage?

[Nate-2004]

Sounds like it's not being done correctly, the stem cells aren't being injected in the proper place required to grow more cartilage or aren't being activated to grow more of the surrounding tissue. Weird that it doesn't work.

[shp5]

Rich Piana does both local growth hormone injections into his knee as well as having had stem cell injections into his knee for treating knee pain. He claims it didn't work and I do believe that. I wonder, is replicative cell senescence the issue? Do young people get knee problems with missing cartilage?

 

 

The golden question is: What is the cause of his pain? There are quite a lot of people with asymptomatic arthrosis, so who knows if he was fixing the actual problem.

[PeaceAndProsperity]

 

Rich Piana does both local growth hormone injections into his knee as well as having had stem cell injections into his knee for treating knee pain. He claims it didn't work and I do believe that. I wonder, is replicative cell senescence the issue? Do young people get knee problems with missing cartilage?

 

 

The golden question is: What is the cause of his pain? There are quite a lot of people with asymptomatic arthrosis, so who knows if he was fixing the actual problem.

 

He has a complete or so loss of cartilage in his knees and shoulders and possibly elsewhere.

[Logic]

I take my Gelatine (right now it's Knox but it will be Great Western) twice daily - on an empty stomach 1 1/2 hours before breakfast and 3 hours after lunch. I use a 12 oz glass filled almost to the top with water and put in Splenda. Then I microwave it for 23 seconds which gives it a sweet taste. I then add a heaping tablespoon of gelatin and stir. I started this 3 months before going to Europe for a month and it helped greatly but the walking on hard and the hilly countryside started my knee pain back up by the middle of the second week.

 

It took less than two weeks back home but the only pain I sometimes feel is when I wake up in the morning; however, this is easily stopped by moving my leg from the knee down back and forth a few times.

 

I also, 5 minutes after taking the gelatin, use 2 five lb ankle weights and swing my legs back and forth for 10 minutes.     

 

I also take UCII and a combo type 1,2 and 3 collagen. This board has been very helpful to me.

 

Thank you all!

 

NB that Vit C is the other essential element in the production of cartilage with collagen supplementation.
I also recommend looking back in this thread and finding the posts on Astragalus, OLE, Sitosterols (IIRC), etc.

[aconita]

BC157 shots and prolozone might be worth a go.

[aconita]

...and LIPUS

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/27729291

[Nate-2004]

I saw this video and am reconsidering collagen again. What molecular weight should I be looking for? Great Lakes is 2000 to 5000 Daltons and I'm not sure what weight Peptan is.

 

[aconita]

Peptan comes in different molecular weights of which usually around 2KDa is considered best for oral consumption, too low makes collagen fractions too short to be optimal in resembling collagen while too high makes fractions too long to be absorbed by the intestine wall therefore digested into single aminoacids.

 

There might be quality difference between brands due to different processing technologies (high heat, acids, enzymatic, etc...) therefore the same molecular weight might not have the same health effect (we don't really know for sure), source likely doesn't matter much (bovine, marine, poultry, pigs).

 

There isn't a great deal of research about health benefits of ingesting hydrolyzed collagen and some studies are contradicting each others.

 

My suggestion is to avoid spending too much money on it, about 20$/kg is plenty even for the very top quality available, more is just a rip off and likely not a sign of better quality at all.

[ironfistx]

Am I nuts if I think the verisol I buy isn't the same consistency as it used to be?

[PeaceAndProsperity]

Maybe we should be looking into estrogen. Just as estrogen clearly protects (but doesn't prevent) against atherosclerosis via reducing lipoprotein(a) secretion, it also seems to protect against osteoarthritis. But how? Is it estrogen or is it progesterone? Maybe I should start looking into older MtF individuals and see if their hormone replacement has done anything for their bad knees.

[aribadabar]

Maybe we should be looking into estrogen. Just as estrogen clearly protects (but doesn't prevent) against atherosclerosis via reducing lipoprotein(a) secretion, it also seems to protect against osteoarthritis. But how? Is it estrogen or is it progesterone? Maybe I should start looking into older MtF individuals and see if their hormone replacement has done anything for their bad knees.

 

Unless you are a (peri-) menopausal woman, I think estrogen supplementation is a bad idea - all sorts of breast cancer etiologies are mediated by estrogen signalling and if you are a man, developing gynecomastia (man boobs) is a distinct possibility.

Peri-menopausal females at least will get a reprieve from the hot flashes common during that period.

[PeaceAndProsperity]

Unless you are a (peri-) menopausal woman, I think estrogen supplementation is a bad idea - all sorts of breast cancer etiologies are mediated by estrogen signalling and if you are a man, developing gynecomastia (man boobs) is a distinct possibility.

Peri-menopausal females at least will get a reprieve from the hot flashes common during that period.

 

You'd be surprised how hard it is to get any considerable gyno even with high dosages of female hormones together with anti androgens.

 

It suddenly hit me. What guys have supraphysiological levels of estrogen while also having osteoarthritis? Bodybuilders, of course! So maybe estrogen doesn't do so much for missing cartilage. On the other hand, testosterone supplementation lowers progesterone levels although some androgens are progestogenic, so it's possible that progesterone has effects against osteoarthritis. Hmm.

[aribadabar]

 

Unless you are a (peri-) menopausal woman, I think estrogen supplementation is a bad idea - all sorts of breast cancer etiologies are mediated by estrogen signalling and if you are a man, developing gynecomastia (man boobs) is a distinct possibility.

Peri-menopausal females at least will get a reprieve from the hot flashes common during that period.

 

You'd be surprised how hard it is to get any considerable gyno even with high dosages of female hormones together with anti androgens.

 

It suddenly hit me. What guys have supraphysiological levels of estrogen while also having osteoarthritis? Bodybuilders, of course! So maybe estrogen doesn't do so much for missing cartilage. On the other hand, testosterone supplementation lowers progesterone levels although some androgens are progestogenic, so it's possible that progesterone has effects against osteoarthritis. Hmm.

 

Not really hard - many men reported increased boobs by merely (regularly) drinking soy beverages.

And how would bodybuilders have elevated levels of estrogen when they often inject themselves with testosterone but not with other anabolic steroids (some of which do convert to estrogen in the body)?

[PeaceAndProsperity]

 

 

Unless you are a (peri-) menopausal woman, I think estrogen supplementation is a bad idea - all sorts of breast cancer etiologies are mediated by estrogen signalling and if you are a man, developing gynecomastia (man boobs) is a distinct possibility.

Peri-menopausal females at least will get a reprieve from the hot flashes common during that period.

 

You'd be surprised how hard it is to get any considerable gyno even with high dosages of female hormones together with anti androgens.

 

It suddenly hit me. What guys have supraphysiological levels of estrogen while also having osteoarthritis? Bodybuilders, of course! So maybe estrogen doesn't do so much for missing cartilage. On the other hand, testosterone supplementation lowers progesterone levels although some androgens are progestogenic, so it's possible that progesterone has effects against osteoarthritis. Hmm.

 

Not really hard - many men reported increased boobs by merely (regularly) drinking soy beverages.

And how would bodybuilders have elevated levels of estrogen when they often inject themselves with testosterone but not with other anabolic steroids (some of which do convert to estrogen in the body)?

 

Manboobs != gyno. Gyno is breast tissue, man boobs is just fat, doesn't have to have anything or much to do with female hormones (I tested this idea on myself by taking anti estrogen medication).

Testosterone metabolizes to estrogen both in women and men. I don't know how you couldn't know this already. Estrogen is what controls testosterone production in the male body, that's why reducing estrogen subsequently increases testosterone production.

 

[aribadabar]

 

 

 

Unless you are a (peri-) menopausal woman, I think estrogen supplementation is a bad idea - all sorts of breast cancer etiologies are mediated by estrogen signalling and if you are a man, developing gynecomastia (man boobs) is a distinct possibility.

Peri-menopausal females at least will get a reprieve from the hot flashes common during that period.

 

You'd be surprised how hard it is to get any considerable gyno even with high dosages of female hormones together with anti androgens.

 

It suddenly hit me. What guys have supraphysiological levels of estrogen while also having osteoarthritis? Bodybuilders, of course! So maybe estrogen doesn't do so much for missing cartilage. On the other hand, testosterone supplementation lowers progesterone levels although some androgens are progestogenic, so it's possible that progesterone has effects against osteoarthritis. Hmm.

 

Not really hard - many men reported increased boobs by merely (regularly) drinking soy beverages.

And how would bodybuilders have elevated levels of estrogen when they often inject themselves with testosterone but not with other anabolic steroids (some of which do convert to estrogen in the body)?

 

Manboobs != gyno. Gyno is breast tissue, man boobs is just fat, doesn't have to have anything or much to do with female hormones (I tested this idea on myself by taking anti estrogen medication).

Testosterone metabolizes to estrogen both in women and men. I don't know how you couldn't know this already. Estrogen is what controls testosterone production in the male body, that's why reducing estrogen subsequently increases testosterone production.

 

 

 

Would you provide some references for these two statements?

[PeaceAndProsperity]

Would you provide some references for these two statements?

 

https://en.wikipedia.../wiki/Aromatase

It's up for you to study these subjects and find the relevant information. You have a lot to learn. These things are common knowledge.

 

Btw, flagging all my posts when I am right and you are ignorant on a subject is bizarre.
 

Edited by PeaceAndProsperity, 26 January 2017 - 09:46 PM.

[aribadabar]

 

Would you provide some references for these two statements?

 

https://en.wikipedia.../wiki/Aromatase

It's up for you to study these subjects and find the relevant information. You have a lot to learn. These things are common knowledge.

 

Btw, flagging all my posts when I am right and you are ignorant on a subject is bizarre.
 

 

 

Before throwing any names you should be certain where the attacks are coming from.

It was not me who rated your posts "ill-informed" or "Needs references". The mods can see and confirm this.

 

I provided my observations and asked for references backing up your statements so I can assess them. Calling me ignorant and downvoting me for that reflects who you are not who I am.

Thanks for the pointer albeit a generic one.

Edited by aribadabar, 26 January 2017 - 10:12 PM.

[YOLF]

Well, I'm not an expert, but I do know about aromatase and T/E. But I didn't always, someone had to suggest that I read up on it, though Peace and Prosperity's post could either be worded better, or he's getting a little rusty. Aromatase iirc turns the precursors of T into E in fat cells. So more fat = more estrogen in men. Though body mass can increase signalling for GnRH and thus increase T levels which will compensate somewhat while you're young, so it might not be readily apparent to all. I wouldn't recommend accepting any kind of obesity or related habits, it will eventually catch up to you and castrate you and/or become a virtually irreversible cause of cognitive decline [/public service announcement].

 

Also, try not to take things personally, you never know who is red marking your posts. It could be anyone.

Edited by YOLF, 27 January 2017 - 05:41 AM.

[Adaptogen]

"The current study demonstrates for the first time that consuming a gelatin and vitamin C–rich supplement increases the appearance of the amino acid components of collagen within human serum.  Supplementation with increasing amounts of gelatin increased circulating glycine, proline, hydroxyproline, and hydroxylysine, peaking 1 h after the supplement was given. Engineered ligaments treated for 6 d with serum from samples collected before or 1 h after subjects consumed a placebo or 5 or 15 g gelatin showed increased collagen content and improved mechanics. Subjects who took 15 g gelatin 1 h before exercise showed double the amino-terminal propeptide of collagen I in their blood, indicating increased collagen synthesis."

 

http://sci-hub.io/10...ajcn.116.138594

Edited by Adaptogen, 07 February 2017 - 05:22 AM.

[BieraK]

Some years ago I started to feel some knee pain in one leg.
I kept the pain at bay for a while doing LLLT on the knee

 

This year I was talking with a girl about the knee pain of her mom and the "click" sounds from cartillage, and how she has at a young age some signs of stiff neck, at that moment I remembered that my pain in the knee was almost non-existent, I realized that this had gone from being something that was notorious for my conscience to something that simply was not.

 

So I stareted to remember what I did.... I remember that the point of change began when I started taking grape seed and andrographis.

 

reading this post I found this:

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/25802548

Andrographolide enhances proliferation and prevents dedifferentiation of rabbit articular chondrocytes: an in vitro study. Abstract As the main active constituent of Andrographis paniculata that was applied in treatment of many diseases including inflammation in ancient China, andrographolide (ANDRO) was found to facilitate reduction of edema and analgesia in arthritis. This suggested that ANDRO may be promising anti-inflammatory agent to relieve destruction and degeneration of cartilage after inflammation. In this study, the effect of ANDRO on rabbit articular chondrocytes in vitro was investigated. Results showed that not more than 8 μM ANDRO did no harm to chondrocytes (P < 0.05). DNA content and glycosaminoglycan (GAG) /DNA were, respectively, improved in ANDRO groups comparing to the control (P < 0.05). ANDRO could promote expression of aggrecan, collagen II, and Sox9 genes while downregulating expression of collagen I gene (P < 0.05). Furthermore, hypertrophy that may result in chondrocyte ossification could not be detected in all groups (P > 0.05). The viability assay, hematoxylin-eosin, safranin O, and immunohistochemical staining also showed better performances in ANDRO groups. As to the doses, 3 μM ANDRO showed the best performance. The results indicate that ANDRO can accelerate proliferation of rabbit articular chondrocytes in vitro and meanwhile maintain the phenotype, which may provide valuable references for further exploration on arthritis.

 

It is an in vitro study however andrographolide is very good at activating Nrf2 and for reducing inflammation. It is highly anecdotal also, but I stopped taking ANDRO since November last year, I stopped other supplements and since this week I'm starting to feel pain in my knee again.... thats the reason why I'm reading this thread.

[dazed1]

Rich Piana does both local growth hormone injections into his knee as well as having had stem cell injections into his knee for treating knee pain. He claims it didn't work and I do believe that. I wonder, is replicative cell senescence the issue? Do young people get knee problems with missing cartilage?

It didn't work because he had so much inflammation in this body, then everything continued to get worse.

[mikey]

My father did $30,000 of stem cell injections for five weeks with Dr. Steenblock, in Orange County, and looked 20 years older after the five weeks and died six months later, so...

 

Collagen in my knees (meniscus) was re-grown with Prolozone (ozone+) injections, documented by MRI's.

 

My dentist has a "couple of dozen patients" and his own father that have experienced regeneration of knee collagen with Prolozone, after I recommended it to him.

 

So, I remain skeptical of stem cells as a rejuvenation technique. Dr. Steenblock looks OLD, himself.

 

Why would I expect an old-looking geezer doctor to deliver true anti-aging effects? Is he a fraud?

[mikey]

I take 1-2 tablespoons of Great Lakes hydrolyzed collagen every day, as do several friends, and it does appear to have reportable benefits.

 

 

[hav]

Recently had a little run-in with a tick and had to get treated for Lyme disease.  One of the symptoms is joint inflammation which I had big-time.  Probably because I already had arthritis in one knee and one of my hip joints. For which I've been supplementing with Collagen Hydrolysate for some time.  The Lyme disease treatment was an antibiotic called doxycycline.   Which I took and noticed something totally unexpected.  All my joint discomfort disappeared while I was taking it.

 

Out of curiosity I did a little research into the properties of doxycycline.  Turns out that in addition to its antibiotic property of killing the Lyme disease bug, it's also a chleator which favors zinc and an inhibitor of an enzyme class called Metalloproteases.  These enzymes apparently attack connective tissue and might be the root cause of arthritis.  Doxycycline binds to the zinc in the enzyme and removes it.

 

Being that taking an antibiotic for joint maintenance might not be a workable long term strategy, I read up a little more into MMP inhibitor research generally and I think I might have located a promising herbal one.  Baicalein.  Also known as Chinese Skullcap.  Been trying it out for a couple weeks and its not as potent as doxycycline but the effect is noticeable at a daily dose of 500mg.  Just bumped it up to 2x daily and my joints feel pretty good.  Just need to keep in mind that it is a chealator so it needs to be given a wide berth of any metals in a supplement stack.  Here's a study where Baicalein was employed by injection with dmso as a carrier...

 

https://www.karger.c...FullText/374075

 

And another one exploring my favorite inclusion complex to enhance oral delivery...

 

http://www.mdpi.com/...49/21/6/703/htm

 

I'm thinking MMP inhibitors like Baicalein might be synergistic with collagen supplements to regrow cartilage.

 

Howard

Edited by hav, 09 February 2018 - 06:35 AM.

[Nate-2004]

My father did $30,000 of stem cell injections for five weeks with Dr. Steenblock, in Orange County, and looked 20 years older after the five weeks and died six months later, so...

 

Collagen in my knees (meniscus) was re-grown with Prolozone (ozone+) injections, documented by MRI's.

 

My dentist has a "couple of dozen patients" and his own father that have experienced regeneration of knee collagen with Prolozone, after I recommended it to him.

 

So, I remain skeptical of stem cells as a rejuvenation technique. Dr. Steenblock looks OLD, himself.

 

Why would I expect an old-looking geezer doctor to deliver true anti-aging effects? Is he a fraud?

 

I imagine there is a lot of fraud going on with stem cell therapies. It's an expensive and complicated situation. I'm invested in multiple public R&D companies involved in some form of clinical application of stem cell therapy, they're all waiting on FDA approval.

[ekaitz]

.

Edited by ekaitz, 12 February 2018 - 03:19 PM.

[ekaitz]

.

Edited by ekaitz, 12 February 2018 - 03:18 PM.