517 replies to this topic

[Ark]

CISSUS

[sthira]

CISSUS

Tell us about your experience & recovery with cissus.

[Gerrans]

I feel I should add to my newby post on niacinamide yesterday. Since then I have acquainted myself with this site somewhat, and I see there is a premium placed on stating the sources behinds one’s speculations. So perhaps I must add a word on what made me start taking niacinamide for my arthritis, and on what the possibility that it increases blood flow might have to do with the topic of cartilage regrowth.

There is surprisingly little research on the use of niacinamide for arthritis. Most of the momentum for the idea came from the work of Dr William Kaufman, who began using it clinically in the 1930s, later supported by that of Dr Abraham Hoffer, who prescribed niacinamide to his schizophrenia patients and noticed they often reported improvements in their arthritis. Unfortunately, despite the thorough investigations and passionate advocacy of these two doctors, their work does not carry the authority of objective research, but it was enough to make me give this cheap vitamin a go.

As far as I can see the only research done on niacinamide'd effect on arthritis in humans was a study by Jonas et al, which concluded:

“This study indicates that niacinamide may have a role in the treatment of osteoarthritis. Niacinamide improved the global impact of osteoarthritis, improved joint flexibility, reduced inflammation, and allowed for reduction in standard anti-inflammatory medications when compared to placebo. More extensive evaluation of niacinamide in arthritis is warranted.” (Jonas, Rapoza, & Blair, “The effect of niacinamide on osteoarthritis: a pilot study”, Inflamm Res, 1996)

Jonas worked in the field of alternative medicine, so I refrain from being carried away by his findings.

Also, a study on mice by Kröger et al linked niacinamide to a beneficial effect on collagen. (Kröger et al, “Enhancing the inhibitory effect of nicotinamide upon collagen II induced arthritis in mice using N-acetylcysteine”, Inflammation, 1999)

I do not know how niacinamide might work in arthritis, but its effect on skin health is well known, and since skin has a high collagen content, perhaps that is the reason it might also be therapeutic around joints. It could be that joint cartilage becomes damaged and inflamed owing to a shortage of oxygen, and that niacinamide’s ability to promote dilation of blood vessels relieves the joints. Conceivably, it might help supplements that encourage regrowth of cartilage to work better. I am speculating here, obviously.

Speaking anecdotally, one thing I have noticed about niacinamide is that it is warming. My arthritis always gets worse in the cold, and so anything that warms my joints is a welcome bonus. Niacin, or nicotinic acid, is well-known to produce a flush of warmth on the skin; but in my experience niacinamide–though you do not read much about this–is also warming, but in a gentler way.

Any effect on my joints is so slow and subtle that I cannot monitor it from pill to pill–I just have the vague feeling that niacinamide brings me more ease (nothing clicks, for example, when I am taking it). However, I have been able to monitor niacinamide’s generation of warmth. If I let my hands get cold and then take a niacinamide pill, I feel a definite effect, sooner or later, of warmth creeping into my hands from finger to finger. So, though I cannot prove niacinamide works for my arthritis, I do know it has at least one effect I can feel physically. To be honest, there are not many supplements I can say that about.

[Ark]

CISSUS

Tell us about your experience & recovery with cissus.

Years of sport judo has worn some of my joints down from armlocks and landing hard / twisting the wrong way in-fact it is common in grappling based arts to have these type of injuries. My experience is about 8 years with Cissus, I notices it cuts my recovery time in half and definitely helps with pain via 5-HT receptor.

I hope this helps.....

[Fred_CALICO]

https://gupea.ub.gu....077_34068_1.pdf

Healing Cartilage
-Aspects on Regenerative Methods
Lars Enochson Department of Clinical Chemistry and Transfusion Medicine
Institute of Biomedicine
Sahlgrenska Academy at University of Gothenburg
Gothenburg, Sweden
ABSTRACT Articular cartilage has poor intrinsic capacity to heal and defects can cause
severe pain for the patient. If the healing process is not assisted the damage
might deteriorate and lead to the onset of osteoarthritis. Autologous
chondrocyte implantation is a successful method in treating focal cartilage
defects, with good clinical outcome. Low cellularity of the tissue and low
proliferative capacity of the chondrocytes are limitations to the treatment.
The aim of the present thesis was to improve assisted articular cartilage
healing and to evaluate how an eventual osteoarthritis progression could be
halted. In particular, we investigated how anabolic chondrogenic processes in
chondrocytes and chondrocyte derived induced pluripotent stem cells can be
improved, thereby optimising the use of autologous cells in articular cartilage
regenerative therapies and methods. Further, we studied if the application of
plasma-mediated ablation can induce an anabolic response in the
chondrocytes. Finally, we investigated how GDF5 signalling, a pathway
implemented in the development of osteoarthritis, affects cartilage
homeostasis.
The results indicated that plasma-mediated ablation induces an anabolic
response in chondrocytes. ECM production by the chondrocytes was
improved by optimizing the standard chondrogenic medium through the use
of factorial design of experiments. We were able to demonstrate that GDF5
can contribute to the redifferentiation process, and has potential in inhibiting
degenerative processes in the cells. Finally, the reprogramming of
chondrocytes into induced pluripotent stem cells showed that these cells
could be useful tools in the determination of cell signalling pathways in tissue
regeneration and disease.
In conclusion, the methods investigated in this thesis can be used to
improve the regenerative capacity of the articular chondrocytes and the thesis
sheds further light on the intricate problems of healing cartilage.

Keywords: Cartilage, regeneration, osteoarthritis, induced pluripotent stem
cells, factorial design, growth factors

[yogaboca]

Greetings,
This thread had been a lifesaver for me!
I have been athletic and active my whole life.
I began teaching yoga at the age of 49 and am now 60 and female.
At 50 I discovered vigorous and very intense yoga and studied with a gifted teacher, 14 years my junior.

At 60 I feel I was just finding my stride with yoga and I recently made some dietary changes and was feeling amazingly good.
Due to the yoga, proper diet, running and calisthenics, I am stronger now than ever before and really I am in the best shape of my life.

I also teach yoga for a living and just at the moment when my schedule increased dramatically (formerly teaching only 2 classes per week and now 8 classes) is when I began to have severe back pain (and had been suffering very minor hip pain for a long while which I was ignoring.)

I treated the back pain with gentle stretching, massage and a lot of Ibuprofen for about 4 days and the pain subsided. But oddly enough my right hip (same side as low back pain) started aching with inflammation all throughout the hip joint and buttocks.

I went into a bit of denial due to my now busy teaching schedule and the fact that I wanted to maintain my very high level of fitness and flexibility. So I tried to keep up with my daily yoga practice and at some point it became clear that I was making matters worse.

The pain and inflammation got really bad. I went to a chiropractor and he told me with total confidence that I have torn some cartilage in my right hip joint. Although I have not had any x-ray or imaging done I believe he is correct and that it is a minor tear since I am able to walk and put weight on that leg.

But my yoga practice is severely compromised and I want to be able to do all the things I once did.
Mobility in that hip is severely impaired.

I heard time and time again that cartilage does not heal due to the lack of blood flow. I could not stand the hopeless feeling caused by this belief.

So I surfed the net and feel so blessed to have stumbled on this site! Thank you all for your generosity in sharing your experiences and info.

I am now committed to treating this with:

1. Lifestyle change - avoiding all yoga poses that cause deeper inflammation
2. Talking more when I teach and demonstrating less
3. Sticking to my dietary regimen
4. Adding a substantial amount of collagen to my daily diet.

I already started on this supplement for 1.5 days as I write this:
Collagen Hydrosylate from Great Lakes Gelatin

And I ordered this supplement and should have it within the week:
Health Logics Biocell Collagen (contains chondroitin and one other ingredient)

I am fully committed to treating this without drugs or surgery and feel I have a good shot since the injury is not that severe to begin with (still very annoying and my low back gets stiff and sore a lot) and I thanks to this thread I feel confident that cartilage in fact can repair and heal.

[niner]

Welcome to Longecity, yogaboca; I'm glad that you have a handle on the problem. You might want to get a young student to demonstrate poses for your class- maybe someone from a more advanced class, or maybe just one of the students in the class. You could help them get into the position, and maybe demonstrate some common errors to avoid in the process. Even if you don't opt for a surgical procedure, it might be worth a little radiology, just so you know what you're dealing with. It might help you to evaluate your treatment plan if you shoot the same view after you've been treating it for a few months. How much collagen hydrolysate are you taking?

[yogaboca]

niner, thanks for the welcome! I am currently taking 12 grams per day of collagen hydrolysate.
But I have another supplement that is being shipped this week.

Biocell collagen:
Hydrolyzed collagen type 2 - 1200mg
Chondroitin Sulfate - 400 mg
Hyaluronic Acid - 200 mg

I thought maybe I would do both.

That would raise it to 13.2 grams of hydrolyzed collagen per day.

[zen]

niner, thanks for the welcome! I am currently taking 12 grams per day of collagen hydrolysate.
But I have another supplement that is being shipped this week.

Biocell collagen:
Hydrolyzed collagen type 2 - 1200mg
Chondroitin Sulfate - 400 mg
Hyaluronic Acid - 200 mg

I thought maybe I would do both.

That would raise it to 13.2 grams of hydrolyzed collagen per day.

BMP's seem to be interesting, at least according to http://www.zycalbio.com/research.html
Other option you may want to research is Prolozone therapy https://www.google.c...one therapy hip

[yogaboca]

I've been taking the hydrolized collagen from Great Lakes Gelatin and in only 3 days I've seen a HUGE improvement.
Less Pain, less inflammation and definitely increased mobility. I am stunned!
Last week I went jogging and could only jog at a very slow relaxed pace (2 miles is what I usually run)
And then about another mile of interval training.

This week my pace was up on the 2 miles AND I could start to increase speed on the interval training.
I am doing MUCH less than I can normally do when not injured but in one short week there has been HUGE improvement.

I have no proof but my bet is on the collagen and will keep taking it.
It's relatively inexpensive and the best part is it dissolves in a smoothie and you can barely taste it.

I can't help but wonder why more people are not hip (excuse the pun) to collagen!

[sthira]

I've been taking the hydrolized collagen from Great Lakes Gelatin and in only 3 days I've seen a HUGE improvement.

Are you sure that's not power of suggestion?

Also, since you're having to demonstrate poses, are you practicing Iyengar? Anusara? What specific poses (Sanskrit names are helpful) are causing you hip and lower back problems?

[yogaboca]

Sthira - RE: Are you sure that's not power of suggestion?

I'm not sure of the point of your question. Feel free to trash my results if you like.
I am in fact cultivating the power of positive intention and it's gone a long way in helping me to take positive steps to heal this hip thing.

As far as specific postures - too many to mention - The main thing that aggravates it is any deep flexion of the hip joint.
A simple forward fold from standing hurts a little - but if I try to take chest to thigh or even forehead to shins, inflammation begins.

It's made worse when the leg is turned out or external rotation of the hip.
I can do a very basic, beginners trikonasana. If I try to go deep by grabbing the big toe I am in intense pain.

Any attempt at lotus or half lotus kills the outside of hip. Extended leg in upright pigeon also hurts that extended leg and back is lacking flexibility in upright pigeon.

That should give you some idea.

[platypus]

Cartrilage can be regenerated with intra+articular growth hormone injections:

http://www.iagh.com/

SuperHumanRadio has a nice interview of the doctor who pioneered this therapy. Joint replacements should only be considered if the injections do not work.

[sthira]

The main thing that aggravates it is any deep flexion of the hip joint.
A simple forward fold from standing hurts a little - but if I try to take chest to thigh or even forehead to shins, inflammation begins.

Sorry if this thread is derailed by some yoga asana talk.  But maybe try not going so deeply into uttanasana if it's causing such pain?  Use blocks to elevate your hands?  The emphasis on forward bends (as you may know) is to open your chest, lift your sternum, and lengthen your side-body.  Sorry if I'm patronizing: think length, not depth; no need to put your chest on your thighs or your head to your shin if you're rounding your back and experiencing hip pain.  When you push too far, back out.  

It's made worse when the leg is turned out or external rotation of the hip.  I can do a very basic, beginners trikonasana.  If I try to go deep by grabbing the big toe I am in intense pain.

Have you tried trikonasana using a block on the outside of the front leg?  The pose isn't about grabbing your big toe.  Think extension, not depth.

Any attempt at lotus or half lotus kills the outside of hip. Extended leg in upright pigeon also hurts that extended leg and back is lacking flexibility in upright pigeon.

Padmasana and half of it are risky poses for strained hips.  I'd offer you shouldn't do this pose if it's causing you pain.  Have you tried using support (like blankets) for supporting your legs, working at approaching the pose rather than achieving it, and not pushing too far?

As for pigeon -- that's a huge hip rotation.  Have you tried supporting the bent front leg with a blanket and pulling your foot closer into your pelvis?  It's a big ole stretch.  Be careful!

That should give you some idea.

Thank you for the clarification.  You mentioned you have significant asana experience, that's why I responded.  I assume you know how to modify poses that cause you pain, and apologize if anything sounds patronizing.  Have you tried Iyengar?  Iyengar has its limitations but it's a great practice for getting your alignment closer before pushing deeper and possible tearing stuff like tendons, ligaments, and fascia.

[niner]

I've been taking the hydrolized collagen from Great Lakes Gelatin and in only 3 days I've seen a HUGE improvement.
Less Pain, less inflammation and definitely increased mobility. I am stunned!

That's awesome, I'm glad to hear it. Don't go nuts and re-injure yourself. You should probably take it relatively easy for a few weeks. Collagen tends to be slow acting.

[yogaboca]

Sthira, Obviously when one is injured one should avoid any movements that deepen the injury and/or cause inflammation. I think for most people - when they are first injured they go into a state of denial. They try to go on living as if everything is OK. But they soon find out that unless they make lifestyle changes - or in my case - modify a lot of my yoga postures - the injury will never heal and will likely get worse not better. Healing is in many ways a choice.

I have a yoga student who has a pretty severe hip injury. He says it's arthritis but that the whole joint is like worn away completely. He is in a lot more pain than I am. I asked him what things hurt. He says everything hurts - especially playing golf. I asked him why he continues to play golf. He really didn't have an answer.

Personally I look at him and I see a man who is acting compulsively with the golf. It seems to me that if he could quit playing golf entirely for 6 months, it might go a long way towards his recovery from this thing. But his mind cannot fathom life without golf. He'd rather shoot himself up with cortisone and take every pain killer imaginable.

In yoga, luckily there is modified practice. But I am not about to play tennis any time soon.

And in my case, one reason why the collagen seems to be working so quickly, is I also have been eating a very pristine diet since January 1. I am convinced that diet plays a HUGE role in healing the body. Since I don't ingest garbage on a regular basis, I suspect the collagen is having a faster and better effect on me. Regardless of what you are trying to heal, diet plays a huge role.

Sthira, Obviously when one is injured one should avoid any movements that deepen the injury and/or cause inflammation. I think for most people - when they are first injured they go into a state of denial. They try to go on living as if everything is OK. But they soon find out that unless they make lifestyle changes - or in my case - modify a lot of my yoga postures - the injury will never heal and will likely get worse not better. Healing is in many ways a choice.

I have a yoga student who has a pretty severe hip injury. He says it's arthritis but that the whole joint is like worn away completely. He is in a lot more pain than I am. I asked him what things hurt. He says everything hurts - especially playing golf. I asked him why he continues to play golf. He really didn't have an answer.

Personally I look at him and I see a man who is acting compulsively with the golf. It seems to me that if he could quit playing golf entirely for 6 months, it might go a long way towards his recovery from this thing. But his mind cannot fathom life without golf. He'd rather shoot himself up with cortisone and take every pain killer imaginable.

In yoga, luckily there is modified practice. But I am not about to play tennis any time soon.

And in my case, one reason why the collagen seems to be working so quickly, is I also have been eating a very pristine diet since January 1. I am convinced that diet plays a HUGE role in healing the body. Since I don't ingest garbage on a regular basis, I suspect the collagen is having a faster and better effect on me. Regardless of what you are trying to heal, diet plays a huge role.

Sthira, Obviously when one is injured one should avoid any movements that deepen the injury and/or cause inflammation. I think for most people - when they are first injured they go into a state of denial. They try to go on living as if everything is OK. But they soon find out that unless they make lifestyle changes - or in my case - modify a lot of my yoga postures - the injury will never heal and will likely get worse not better. Healing is in many ways a choice.

I have a yoga student who has a pretty severe hip injury. He says it's arthritis but that the whole joint is like worn away completely. He is in a lot more pain than I am. I asked him what things hurt. He says everything hurts - especially playing golf. I asked him why he continues to play golf. He really didn't have an answer.

Personally I look at him and I see a man who is acting compulsively with the golf. It seems to me that if he could quit playing golf entirely for 6 months, it might go a long way towards his recovery from this thing. But his mind cannot fathom life without golf. He'd rather shoot himself up with cortisone and take every pain killer imaginable.

In yoga, luckily there is modified practice. But I am not about to play tennis any time soon.

And in my case, one reason why the collagen seems to be working so quickly, is I also have been eating a very pristine diet since January 1. I am convinced that diet plays a HUGE role in healing the body. Since I don't ingest garbage on a regular basis, I suspect the collagen is having a faster and better effect on me. Regardless of what you are trying to heal, diet plays a huge role.

[Luminosity]

Welcome Yogaboca,

I like Niner's suggestions for your yoga classes. Don't push yourself to do anything physically. Most knowledgable sources give a typical timeline of something like fourteen to eighteen months for hip joint cartilage to heal if you do the right things and don't do the wrong things. You have done good in coming here. I would make healing this the main task in your life right now because the hip joints are the lynchpins of your body. I don't know about jogging. Don't do any yoga that makes the problem worse for any reason. The key with exercise is to get blood and oxygen to the area without stressing it in any way. Swimming in a heated pool might be a good option. In Chinese medicine heat helps this problem and cold makes it worse. If you can only swim in a cold pool that might be o.k. Omit movements that make it worse. If you just need to swim with your arms, that's o.k. Any exercise that gets your blood moving and doesn't stress the area is going to help Excuse me for mentioning this but because of the location, orgasms are good for moving blood there and clearing inflammation, just don't do anything to get them that aggravates the problem.

A natural anti-inflammatory is boswellian or boswellia. I like the house brand from Vitacost. Liquid cooked sarsaparilla extract is also good. I like Source Naturals brand. It is preserved with alcohol. Unless you have a problem with alcohol, an ocasional drink of warming alcohol, like red wine or brandy is good for this and good for your bones and cartilage.

Personally, I avoid bending from the waist as much as possible because that has caused flares for me. I got some grabber sticks, orange and black ones from a CVS drugstore as these are a good brand. I use a wheelchair as a cart to keep things about waist high. Look into carts, especially those that prevent bending. Look into avoiding lifting. The scooters at stores may help. There is a lot of help available if you look at the things elderly and disabled people use. If necessary a walker or a wheelchair used as a walker can take the weight off the area and also act as a cart and portable seat. I hope this isn't necessary but the more weight, pressure and friction you can keep off the area as it heals, the better. There might be some things you want to try using more at home, if you don't want people to see them.

Here is a link to my blog post on how to regrow cartilage:

http://www.longecity...grow-cartilage/

Here is a link to my thread on Chinese medicine:

http://www.longecity...inese-medicine/

Edited by Luminosity, 02 March 2014 - 06:07 AM.

[yogaboca]

Luminosity thanks! I've read all your posts on this thread and they are very inspiring and full of useful info. Yes folding forward can be a bitch but as I said my tear seems pretty small compared to what others are experiencing. And I understand that it could get worse not better unless I respect the pain.

I feel I know my limits now and am respecting those limits. Only time will tell.

I think you may have omitted the link you wanted to share with me.

RE:
Here is a link to my blog post on how to regrow cartilage:

I DID NOT SEE THE LINK. CAN YOU POST IT FOR ME?

Thanks for your generosity! I felt hopeless before finding this awesome thread!

[Luminosity]

It should be there now. Was in the process.

[YOLF]

Yoga, have you thought about going to the Church of Perpetual Life? They're about half an hour from you and they talk about all sorts of health related issues and how to use supplements and what not to improve your condition. It's run by a co-founder of the Life Extension Foundation (also a great organization to get involved with). They could be a valuable asset for your health/wellness. Below is a link where you can check out what their services are like. They are a little unconventional and might not be what you think of when you hear "Church," but it's worth learning what they do.



Is there anything else in your collagen supplement? MSM is very effective and works very quickly.

[yogaboca]

Cryonics, Thanks for sharing. No I had not heard of them. Hollywood is not a great commute for me so I will probably pass on this for now but I'll keep them in mind for the future. Many have recommended MSM, so I will likely have to add that to my supplement cocktail.

[BlueCloud]

Yoga, have you thought about going to the Church of Perpetual Life? They're about half an hour from you and they talk about all sorts of health related issues and how to use supplements and what not to improve your condition. It's run by a co-founder of the Life Extension Foundation (also a great organization to get involved with). They could be a valuable asset for your health/wellness. Below is a link where you can check out what their services are like. They are a little unconventional and might not be what you think of when you hear "Church," but it's worth learning what they do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_5QmppTsZo&list=PLqtPWr3NbBqaA6h3FQlYH4X9yIGxQfSE9

Is there anything else in your collagen supplement? MSM is very effective and works very quickly.

I just saw the first minute or so of the video, but honestly with that name, the look of that building, etc.. they look more like some esoteric cult or some scientology branch than a scientifically driven longevity organisation. Maybe they're not a cult, but they're certainly not doing a service to the longevity movement by taking that approach.

[platypus]

New cartilage can be grown with HGH, so that should be a part of any serious attempt to regenerate cartilage with drugs & supplements. See my earlier post.

[BDon]

I would imagine TB-500 also. Or Adequan/ICHon

[hav]

Following my earlier post at the end of November I started with 2 table spoons a day of NOW brand powdered beef gelatin and felt increased comfort in my knees after about 3 days. I've since switched to the Great Lakes brand hydrolized version which seems to dissolve a little more readily in water and weighed the 2 tablespoons I take and found it measures 12 grams. Human studies indicate that pain relief typically occurs within a week but animal studies found that it takes about 6 months to detect any tagged collagen in cartilage.

Howard

[hav]

I would imagine TB-500 also. Or Adequan/ICHon

Don't know there's any direct evidence that beta thymosin will regrow cartilage but it might reduce inflammation in surrounding ligaments that might be damaging. But gelatin supplementation seemed to do that for me. I did use TB-500 for a nearby inflamed tendon and it did work but that was a couple of months before I tried gelatin. I would have tried the gelatin first if I had an inkling it might help.

Howard

[yogaboca]

Howard,
I'm having good results with the Great Lakes brand hydrolyzed collagen. Walking is almost pain free (give or take those weird moments) sitting driving in the car is almost pain free. Yoga postures are getting easier. I still have a long way to go but I definitely see progress from the collagen and it was almost immediate.
I'm a believer. For me massage, constant stretching and core strengthening are helping as well. In my case the cartilage tear is likely very minor compared to some. Oh yeah and Ben Gay (I actually like the generic CVS brand better) provides some relief.

[Luminosity]

I would imagine TB-500 also. Or Adequan/ICHon

What are these things? Tell us about them.

[ironfistx]

Looking at collagen supplements, it looks like there are a few that might all be similar.

Swanson Joint Health Drink Mix with Fortigel. $19.99 for 30 10g servings of Fortigel collagen hydrolysate from bovine. I actually stopped using this because it was making my fingers tingle when I took it which I think was due to the Stevia in it. This is about $0.66 per 10g serving.

Osteo Bi-Flex Nutrajoint with Gelatin: $17.29 for 28 10g servings of hydrolyzed collagen (source not given). This also has some vitamins in it. I am thinking about trying this one because it doesn't have Stevia. There is another version available that also has glucosamine and chondroitin. That is about $0.61 per 10g serving.

Great Lakes Collagen Hydrolyzed Collagen: 6 one pound packs for $92.10 for or 12 one pound packs for $184.20. Each 1 pound container has 62 6g servings which makes this one about $0.25 per 6g serving. I saw this one mentioned by yogabuca above so I Googled it. They also have separate ones called bovine and porcine, but I don't know how those differ from the hydrolyzed collagen. This is about $0.41 per 10g serving if you want to use the same size as the other ones.

So my question is what is the difference between Fortigel and the other types of hydrolyzed collagen? Are they all the same? Fortigel is bovine, does that mean we should be looking for that kind?

For the person who was asking about buying bulk Fortigel, I found someone who sells it but you could only get large orders of it, like more than you would ever use in a year. I don't think they still sell it, though.

Edited by ironfistx, 17 March 2014 - 05:45 AM.

[Logic]

Having re-read this thread I get the impression that collagen, MSM, HA etc. are the ingredients to required to bake the cartilage cake.
Supps that wake up the baker and get him working at full speed seem to be studiously ignored!?? (with some notable axceptions. Thx guys!)

These include Icariin from Horny Goat Weed, Ecdysterone, Astragalus.

This despite their rejuvenating properties in other areas like Telomerase activation, icsed IGF-1 etc. that should also have good effect on cartilage regeneration.

Some links again:

http://www.ergo-log....ronejoints.html
"Ecdysterone, a steroid found in spinach-type plants, helps joint cartilage to grow. Endocrinologists at the University of Goettingen, Germany, reached this conclusion from experiments they did with rats..."

http://www.ergo-log.com/joints.html

Special mention goes to Threonate:
http://www.longecity...osteoarthritis/

My niggling knee issues were forgotten after taking a rejuvenation stack including most of the mentioned supps plus Gelatin in water and only remembered after receiving a PM from an open minded member here...