517 replies to this topic

[Logic]

I just noticed this:
"Olive Leaf Extract helps damaged cartilage to heal more quickly"
http://www.ergo-log....re-quickly.html

At the time I had made a tincture from Olive leaves, available on the pavement, and a bottle of Vodka with a juicer, but was unaware of this research.

[brainstorm11]

Has anyone mentioned adding bone broth to your diet? For those who are a little more cautious about supplementing, it will hopefully be a great option.

[lemonhead]

Has anyone mentioned adding bone broth to your diet? For those who are a little more cautious about supplementing, it will hopefully be a great option.

I'd do chicken broth/stock, more cartilage. If we eat a whole chicken I usually use the carcass for stock. You need to boil it for at least 2 hrs to break it down. Add in some herbs and onion. If you just want stock, you can start with raw chicken wings. Just dump them in the pot, add water and aromatics, and boil for 2-3 hrs. Strain the stock, chill, and skim off the fat. When chilled, the stock should be like set Jell-O.

Edited by lemonhead, 23 March 2014 - 03:01 PM.

[hav]

I just noticed this:
"Olive Leaf Extract helps damaged cartilage to heal more quickly"
http://www.ergo-log....re-quickly.html

At the time I had made a tincture from Olive leaves, available on the pavement, and a bottle of Vodka with a juicer, but was unaware of this research.

Here's another study on the radio-protective effect of a number of things on bone cells. Interestingly, it tested bone cells for inhibition of chromosome deterioration both before and after exposure to x-rays. The tested substances were Olive Leaf extract (OL); the flavonoids diosmin and rutin, and the sulfur-containing compounds dimethylsulfoxide (DMSO) and 6-n-propyl-2-thiouracil (PTU):

Radioprotective effects in vivo of phenolics extracted from Olea europaea L. leaves against X-ray-induced chromosomal damage: comparative study versus several flavonoids and sulfur-containing compounds.

With treatment before X-irradiation, the most effective compounds were, in order, rutin > DMSO > OL > PTU > diosmin.
...
The magnitude of protection with treatment after X-irradiation were lower, and the most effective compounds were, in order, OL > diosmin > rutin; DMSO and PTU lacked radioprotective activity.

Olive Leaf extract seems to have promoted bone cell health pretty good without any exposure and ranked the best after exposure. Looks like its protective effects on bone cells might be optimal in combo with Rutin.

Howard

[brainstorm11]

Has anyone mentioned adding bone broth to your diet? For those who are a little more cautious about supplementing, it will hopefully be a great option.

I'd do chicken broth/stock, more cartilage. If we eat a whole chicken I usually use the carcass for stock. You need to boil it for at least 2 hrs to break it down. Add in some herbs and onion. If you just want stock, you can start with raw chicken wings. Just dump them in the pot, add water and aromatics, and boil for 2-3 hrs. Strain the stock, chill, and skim off the fat. When chilled, the stock should be like set Jell-O.

Great advice. I should have mentioned that I typically make huge batches of bone broth that last me 4-6 months. Not a new person to it, but definitely utilizing it more recently due to shoulder problems.

Thanks again. Take care

[lemonhead]

Has anyone mentioned adding bone broth to your diet? For those who are a little more cautious about supplementing, it will hopefully be a great option.

I'd do chicken broth/stock, more cartilage. If we eat a whole chicken I usually use the carcass for stock. You need to boil it for at least 2 hrs to break it down. Add in some herbs and onion. If you just want stock, you can start with raw chicken wings. Just dump them in the pot, add water and aromatics, and boil for 2-3 hrs. Strain the stock, chill, and skim off the fat. When chilled, the stock should be like set Jell-O.

Great advice. I should have mentioned that I typically make huge batches of bone broth that last me 4-6 months. Not a new person to it, but definitely utilizing it more recently due to shoulder problems.

Thanks again. Take care

Oh, I was just seconding your excellent suggestion and elaborating on it. Despite the rise of 'food culture', I still find a lot of people aren't that familiar with cooking from scratch. Though I must say I've been having to alter my practices since I found out about AGEs and how the Maillard reaction isn't a good thing (some chefs advise roasting the wings before boiling for extra flavor and the nice brown color. I used to use the skin of the roast chicken, but now I throw it out. Probably shouldn't be eating roasted anything in the first place).

[Guardian4981]

What about egg shell membrane?

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC2697588/

[Luminosity]

Ecdysterone was slightly beneficial for me in that a double dose got me exercising, but it messed up my periods. That alarmed me and I stopped taking it. Steriod-like compounds seem scary to me.

[Logic]

Cissus quadrangularis helps bone cells make more IGF-1

http://www.ergo-log....sbonecells.html

[ironfistx]

I have been giving Osteo Biflex Joint Powder with Knox Gelatin a try for the last few weeks.  It's supposedly the right kind of collagen, and this mixture does not have Stevia like swanson Joint Health did, which gave me a weird reaction.

 

I thought that I might be able to get the collagen cheaper, since it says "with Knox " on the label, and on the actual receipt it says "with Gelatine," which is what Knox calls their mix that you can buy in the grocery store.  So I bought some envelopes of Knox Gelatine and it is definitely different than what is in the supplement I have been using.  It doesn't mix as well and i smore textured when you drink it.  I wonder if Osteo Biflex does something to it before adding it to their supplement.

 

There is also a version of the Osteo Biflex stuff with Glucosamine and Chondroitin in it, but I wanted to use the regular one.

[smithx]

I have been taking fish and chicken collagen for months and at the moment am pain free in my spine, where I have a bulging disc. I still can feel it slightly if I focus on it, but it's much much better.

 

No idea if the collagen had anything to do with the improvement or not....

 

[nickdino]

What are some of the best supplements of this type available? I mean there are different kinds of collagen, some act on cartilage, some on hair/skin/nails, and some on subcutaneous fat? Is there a product that has it all?

[Luminosity]

It doesn't necessarily work that way.  You might want to google for my posts on collagen and MSM.

[shp5]

on a slightly different topic.

 

Mohammed Khalifa is a famous person in Austrias orthopedic circles. He does manual therapy on patients that seems to enable them to regenerate their anterior cruciate ligament.

 

See for yourself.

http://www.hindawi.c...am/2014/462840/

 

 

 

Rupture of the anterior cruciate ligament (ACL) is a high incidence injury usually treated surgically. According to common knowledge, it does not heal spontaneously, although some claim the opposite. Regeneration therapy by Khalifa was developed for injuries of the musculoskeletal system by using specific pressure to the skin. This randomized, controlled, observer-blinded, multicentre study was performed to validate this assumption. Thirty patients with complete ACL rupture, magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) verified, were included. Study examinations (e.g., international knee documentation committee (IKDC) score) were performed at inclusion (t0). Patients were randomized to receive either standardised physiotherapy (ST) or additionally 1 hour of Khalifa therapy at the first session (STK). Twenty-four hours later, study examinations were performed again (t1). Three months later control MRI and follow-up examinations were performed (t2). Initial status was comparable between both groups. There was a highly significant difference of mean IKDC score results at t1 and t2. After 3 months, 47% of the STK patients, but no ST patient, demonstrated an end-to-end homogeneous ACL in MRI. Clinical and physical examinations were significantly different in t1 and t2. ACL healing can be improved with manual therapy. Physical activity can be performed without pain and nearly normal range of motion after one treatment of specific pressure.

 

[NLTCrow]

I first heard about Arthred back in the 90s and have been taking it semi-regularly ever since.  My intake tends to be sporadic during the summer but I make sure to take it daily during the winter.

 

The type II collagen was recommended to me last year and I started using that too, I take the Swanson that Luminosity has mentioned.  I don't bother soaking it in H2O, I just pop the 6 capsules with a Vit C cap but I always take 'em with 3 Wobenzym's too.  The Wob has it's own anti-inflammatory benefits but as an enzyme I figured it would also help in the digestion & absorption of the collagen.  I'd never thought of dumping the capsules in H2O and may give that a try, my first thought would be to use a packet of Emergn-C for the Vit C.

 

I also take the Swanson Mobility Essentials for my Glucosamine/Chondroiton and plenty of MSM powder.

 

I'm in my 50s, have had 4 knee surgeries (both ACLs) and still ski 60+ days a year so I must be doing something right.

[Globespy]

daouda, can you PM me with this information as my membership only allows me to PM once a day it seems!
I'm all in for crazy DIY approaches to regrowing cartilage.

I just found out about a Dr Schulze who snapped his ACL and tore his cartilage in a skiing accident. Refusing surgery, he supposedly grew it all back by cycling hot and cold temperatures on his knee joint (hot/cold hydrotherapy) and using a 'Deep Tissue Oil' formula (here is the formula). Of course the reason why ligaments & cartilage do not tend to grow well is because of poor blood flow. The hot/cold hydrotherapy cycles water towards and away from the skin while the Tissue Oil blows open the capillaries in the area and pushes blood to the region.

This is 100% true. Ligaments and tendons heal slowly and poorly because they are poorly vascularized, cartilage has even more limited healing capability because it is avascular.

Magnets also are supposed to achieve the same thing (the theory is that magnets attract the iron component of the blood to promote blood flow in the area). There isnt any studies proving it but some physiotherapists swear by it and claim great results (some professional rugby and soccer team physiotherapists use it on their players). They use some kinds of joint braces/sleeves with magnets incorporated into it.

But the best thing would be to inject growth factors (PRP, HGH, Test, IGF1 etc) directly inside the joint for cartilage regrowth. That's the only thing that has been clinically proven to work (Dr Dunn procedure)

I also know of a couple ppl having success injecting autologous blood intrarticularly (not PRP, total blood). Theoretically this shouldnt work though and even should be detrimental http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC1868108/
But in practice it does seem to work and would be the cheapest/easiest option.

People with OA interested in regrowing cartilage can PM me, Ill give you the link to that private forum where audacious ppl are sharing their experiences on such crazy and audacious DIY protocols. Cautious ppl need not apply. (some of the ppl on that forum are medical students in their last years though, not all meathead bros)

[Luminosity]

Here's there supplement regimen I used to regrow cartilage.  I went from a wheelchair to walking:  

 

http://www.longecity...grow-cartilage/

[Globespy]

Thanks Luminosity. I'll give this a try.
Can I ask what put you in a wheelchair?

[Luminosity]

i'm leaving all that behind.  

[MachineGhostX]

 

I think the moon stuff is added by the person who copied the recipe from Dr Schulze. AFAIK it's the actual herbal concoction that matters, oil is oil. Habanero powder extract is going to burn like a mean beast. Instead of immaturely trying to mock it, how about we look at the damn ingredients:

I agree that the ingredients look legit for a topical. But I gotta say, if that person added the moon stuff, they really did a disservice to Dr. Schulze and his formula. When you find medical advice on the internet, you have to figure out on your own whether it's quackery or not, and the moon thing doesn't help people think this is for real.

 

 

The moon stuff is from Dr. Schulze.  He's a naturopath, not a mainstream doctor, so he has the expected herbal training derived from centuries of agriculture and "witchcraft".  Go talk to a farmer or somethihng.  Bottom line, herbal formulas are stronger if made on the new moon and soaked until at least the full moon.  Simple gravity.  Nothing more, nothing less.

[niner]

 

 

I think the moon stuff is added by the person who copied the recipe from Dr Schulze. AFAIK it's the actual herbal concoction that matters, oil is oil. Habanero powder extract is going to burn like a mean beast. Instead of immaturely trying to mock it, how about we look at the damn ingredients:

I agree that the ingredients look legit for a topical. But I gotta say, if that person added the moon stuff, they really did a disservice to Dr. Schulze and his formula. When you find medical advice on the internet, you have to figure out on your own whether it's quackery or not, and the moon thing doesn't help people think this is for real.

 

 

The moon stuff is from Dr. Schulze.  He's a naturopath, not a mainstream doctor, so he has the expected herbal training derived from centuries of agriculture and "witchcraft".  Go talk to a farmer or somethihng.  Bottom line, herbal formulas are stronger if made on the new moon and soaked until at least the full moon.  Simple gravity.  Nothing more, nothing less.

 

My crude understanding of the spirit world doesn't have an explanation for a tiny change in gravity affecting an herbal extract.  Employing my simplistic mechanistic science, I would probably ask how we know this effect to be the case.  Has the exact same herbal formula been created under different moons and compared in a blinded fashion?  Does approaching it with an impure questioning mind mess up the magic?  What about herbals that are prepared on mountains versus at sea level?  The gravity is different...

[MachineGhostX]

 

Collagen is a protein, which is a long chain of amino acids that are connected "head to tail". Hydrolysis breaks the chain into shorter chains, and ultimately into individual amino acids, if it's fully hydrolyzed. This process is sometimes called "digestion", probably because it's exactly what happens when you eat a protein. Your body is full of enzymes (called proteases) that hydrolyze proteins so that you can use the amino acids that they contain. So this leaves me wondering if it matters if the collagen is hydrolyzed or not. I'm sure it helps at least some, but it seems kind of hard to believe that humans aren't able to metabolize Jello.

 

Gelatin is cooked collagen, i.e. it is potentially damaged by heat.  Hydrolyzation is a process of targeting a specific molecular weight of peptides to enhance absorption and bioavailability.  Since about 40% of protein is wasted or non-absorbed during digestion (no idea if thats due to gunk proteins created by heat cooking). there's more bang for your buck with hydrolyzed collagen.  I suppose a simple test would be to prepare hydrolyzed collagen powder as if it were gelatin and see if it thickens up or not?

 

A bigger question is...  is beef protein isolate at all comparable to non-hydrolyzed collagen or gelatin in function?

 

Another complication is that Type 2 collagen doesn't perform when the molecular size is small (denatured), whereas Type I, Type III, hyaluronic acid and chondroitin do.  The junk Type II's, hyaluronic acid, chondroitin out there ignore the molecular weight and can act pro-inflammatory.  I've never seen ANY supplement get it all right except for Cosamin which is ridiculously overpriced.  I've asked Swanon to formulate a proper formula (their suppliers do have all the necessary ingredients), but who knows if they'll listen.

 

Even though I did so in this post, I think conflating denaturing, hydrolyzation and cooking is a bad idea.  They can all have different functional end-effects even if digestion is technically "denaturing".

 

And lastly, is it the aminoglycans from collagen what we're ultimately after?  Because if so, they're in pathetically small amounts compared to supplementing with glucosamine, chondroitin and hyaluronic acid individually.

 

Edited by MachineGhostX, 20 August 2014 - 08:37 PM.

[MachineGhostX]

MSM any good? in high doses of 20g daily.

Are there alternatives to Glucosamine. I believe I read a long time ago that Glucosamine Sulfate > Glucosamine HCL and there is some stronger potent Glucosamine with the name of 2-KCL Glucosamine but I can't find it.

 

Glucosamine sulfate is 80% glucosamine; HCL is 99% glucosamine.  As usual, the supplement companies trick you by listing 1500mg, but you're not getting 1500mg used in the studies when it is sulfate.

[niner]

 

A bigger question is...  is beef protein isolate at all comparable to non-hydrolyzed collagen or gelatin in function?

 

 

Even though I did so in this post, I think conflating denaturing, hydrolyzation and cooking is a bad idea.  They can all have different functional end-effects even if digestion is technically "denaturing".

 

Collagen has a very specific and unusual amino acid composition, compared to normal proteins, so I don't think they are really comparable.

 

It's not so bad to relate cooking to denaturing, as long as it's the right kind of cooking.  Heating proteins in water denatures them.  That means they unfold from their compact form, and adopt the 'random coil' configuration, like a rope that's dropped on the ground.  If you heat protein in the absence of water, it gets too hot and you chemically modify it.  That's completely different.  Hydrolysis is yet another thing- that means clipping the peptide chain into smaller pieces.  It's usually an enzymatic process that happens at body temperature or lower.  Cooking is not likely to hydrolyze a protein unless there is acid or base present.

[MachineGhostX]

I personally take twelve capsules of Swansons type II collagen each day, along with various other substances. I can't tell you how many grams that is. I would take more but my body doesn't get any additional benefit from that and these pills are expensive. All my supplements are expensive, so I try not to waste them. I take them the best way, at the best times. I have to take many substances and follow the routine. You will likely have to take these supplements for a long time.

 

Why did you decide to go with a denatured Type II instead of UC-II, both which are derived from chicken sternum except the latter is undenatured?

[niner]

Glucosamine sulfate is 80% glucosamine; HCL is 99% glucosamine.  As usual, the supplement companies trick you by listing 1500mg, but you're not getting 1500mg used in the studies when it is sulfate.

 

I don't see why this would be the case.  a sulfate anion is 96 g/m, and chloride is 35 g/m.  Because sulfate has a minus two charge, you get two glucosamine molecules for each sulfate.  With chloride, there is one glucosamine per chloride.  Thus the percentage of the total weight that is glucosamine is pretty similar in the two; slightly more with chloride, but not 20% more, unless I'm missing something, like vastly different numbers of waters of hydration or some necessary excipient that's needed with sulfate but not chloride.  I suspect those aren't the case.  By my calculations, I get:

 

sulfate:  79% glucosamine

chloride: 84% glucosamine.

 

So chloride is a little better, but I doubt it's enough to matter.

 

I personally take twelve capsules of Swansons type II collagen each day, along with various other substances. I can't tell you how many grams that is. I would take more but my body doesn't get any additional benefit from that and these pills are expensive. All my supplements are expensive, so I try not to waste them. I take them the best way, at the best times. I have to take many substances and follow the routine. You will likely have to take these supplements for a long time.

 

Why did you decide to go with a denatured Type II instead of UC-II, both which are derived from chicken sternum except the latter is undenatured?

 

 

How do they get the collagen out of the chicken sternum without denaturing it?  Wouldn't that just be chicken sternum, more or less?

[MachineGhostX]

Yes. As stated in the first post I have cartilage loss in my elbow. An MRI revealed grade 3/4 chondral fissuring.

 

 

But it also sounded like you have carpel tunnel syndrome.

[MachineGhostX]

 

http://www.amazon.co...ds=swanson uc11

Check this out, it only has 10mg of collagen, with positive reviews from different brands, this is Swanson, but NOW has one too.

Its seems that collagen has strong anti-nflammatory action in joints? Has this been discussed before?
Nevertheless I cannot see how you can have any repair with just 10mg of this patented collagen formulation, when some supplements go as high as 12gr.

I have struggled to understand how UCII works as well. I agree, clearly 10mg is not going to feed your joints. The idea is that it somehow helps prevent your immune system from attacking your joints, maybe something like allergy shots.

 

It's supposed to work like immunotherapy, but it actually made things worse for me.

[MachineGhostX]

It's made worse when the leg is turned out or external rotation of the hip.
I can do a very basic, beginners trikonasana. If I try to go deep by grabbing the big toe I am in intense pain.

Any attempt at lotus or half lotus kills the outside of hip. Extended leg in upright pigeon also hurts that extended leg and back is lacking flexibility in upright pigeon.

That should give you some idea.

 

You should read this: http://www.nytimes.c...k-your-body.htm

 

It's a open secret in the yoga industry that end-consumers don't know about.  Frankly, I no longer saw the point so I stopped doing yoga.

[MachineGhostX]

 

I just saw the first minute or so of the video, but honestly with that name, the look of that building, etc.. they look more like some esoteric cult or some scientology branch than a scientifically driven longevity organisation. Maybe they're not a cult, but they're certainly not doing a service to the longevity movement by taking that approach.

 

No kidding.  I guess Fallon just loves to stick it to "the man".  Sheesh.  But you know what?  I rather join that church and have a community than with the true religious whackjobs.