91 replies to this topic

[LBGSHI]

I've seen a few threads here and elsewhere promoting supplementation of glutamate in conjunction with nootropics, and I've also seen a few condemning it. However, I haven't seen a clear consensus, nor have I seen much evidence to back up either side of the debate. Perhaps we can get to the bottom of this.

First, a little introduction and specificity:

Glutamic acid is one of 20 directly encoded proteinogenic amino acids (the other two proteinogenic amino acids, selenocysteine and pyrrolysine, are incorporated into proteins by distinctive biosynthetic mechanisms). In the body, glutamic acid loses one hydrogen atom and becomes glutamate...although in general, this technicality is ignored and people (even scientists) use the terms "glutamate" and "glutamic acid" interchangeably. Nevertheless, it bears reminding that glutamate is not the same thing as glutamine. Incidentally, glutamate can be converted by the body to glutamine, and likewise glutamine can be converted to glutamate, but this does not imply that sufficient levels of one will guarantee sufficient levels of the other.

A quick look on Wikipedia will inform the reader that "Glutamate is an important neurotransmitter that plays a key role in long-term potentiation and is important for learning and memory." Couple that with the fact that several nootropics, including and perhaps most notably the racetams, increase the brain's use of glutamate, and thereby decrease brain glutamate levels. For example:

Piracetam decreases the glutamate content of the brains of mice - http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/1685614

Aniracetam increases cortical glutamate release - http://www.ncbi.nlm....d?term=11852174

Oxiracetam selectively increases the release of glutamate in the hippocampus - http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/1361044


It would seem that glutamate reserves are depleted by racetam use (and likely the use of other nootropics with similar mechanisms of action), and that glutamate supplementation may be desired in this case.

However, there have been concerns over glutamate excitotoxicity, which could cause neuronal damage and cell death, resulting in everything from stroke to epileptic seizures. This is the real crux of the matter, and what must be addressed.

Glutamate, as mentioned above, is essential to the body, and is present in sufficient levels in normal humans. A diet low in natural sources of glutamate results in symptoms such as insomnia, problems concentrating, and mental exhaustion. Total deficiency of glutamate would cause death, but it would be almost impossible to deplete this amino acid completely, as the body produces it from glutamine when it cannot acquire it dietarily.

The question becomes: If glutamate is important for nootropic users, how might one determine if he or she is deficient, and how might one supplement it without running the risk of excitotoxicity?

Although nothing comes to mind for determining deficiency other than trial and error (suggestions?), we can take a quick look at dietary sources of glutamate to see how much humans safely ingest every day.

If, for example, we drop by USDA's FNS web site, we see that the average serving of corn is about 90 grams: http://www.fns.usda...._F210_Final.pdf

If we take a look at USDA's NAL web site, we see that corn contains 0.636 grams of glutamate per 100 grams: http://ndb.nal.usda....ormat=Full&new=

Given the average 90 gram serving noted above, this means that humans regularly consume 0.5724 grams (or 572.4 milligrams) of glutamate via corn.

If you think that's significant, the next example blows it out of the water. The USDA recommends that at a bare minimum, adults consume at least 6 ounces of grains per day, 3 of which should be whole grains: http://www.ers.usda....48/err50_1_.pdf

However, the average healthy, active human far exceeds this recommendation. Per the USDA's NAL web site, the average slice of whole wheat bread weighs 28 grams, and is composed of 1.894 grams per 100 grams glutamate: http://ndb.nal.usda....ormat=Full&new=

This means that every time you eat a slice of whole wheat bread, you're ingesting 0.530 grams (or 530 milligrams) of glutamate. In general, people use two slices per sandwich, which amounts to 1.06 grams per sandwich, aside from any additional items containing glutamate.

Cracked wheat weighs about 25 grams per slice, and contains 2.770 grams per 100 grams glutamate: http://ndb.nal.usda....ormat=Full&new=

This means that for every cracked wheat sandwich you eat, you're ingesting 1.385 grams of glutamate.

Considering the fact that many very healthy people consume multiple sandwiches per day, and adding to that the fact that, for example, 12-inch subway sandwiches contain at least three times as much bread as normal sandwiches, people ingest many grams of glutamate per day via wheat bread alone.

Other natural dietary sources of glutamate include:

Eggs (for example, fried eggs, weighing on average 46 grams, contain 1.87 grams per 100 grams glutamate, or 860.2 milligrams glutamate per fried egg) - http://ndb.nal.usda....ormat=Full&new=

Peas (peas contains 0.741 grams per 100 grams glutamate - the average serving of peas, one cup or 145 grams, thus contains 1.07 grams of glutamate) - http://ndb.nal.usda....ormat=Full&new=

Parmesan Cheese (contains a whopping 8.696 grams per 100 grams glutamate - the average serving of one ounce or 28.35 grams thus contains 2.465 grams of glutamate) - http://ndb.nal.usda....ormat=Full&new=

...and the list goes on. Google the other twenty or so common dietary sources, and run them through the USDA NAL foods list here: http://ndb.nal.usda....ndb/search/list


All this points to the fact that, if one can easily skew glutamate ingestion by several grams just eating a subway sandwich, supplementing a gram or two isn't going to cause any significant harm. Moreover, if it's been conclusively established that the racetams deplete glutamate, taking a glutamate supplement while taking a racetam supplement would seem to be a very good idea. Alternately, you could just increase your dietary intake of glutamate, by eating more of the foods mentioned above (and others that contain significant amounts of glutamate).

Input?

Edited by LBGSHI, 03 January 2013 - 07:00 PM.

[SuperjackDid_]

Piracetam decreases the glutamate content of the brains of mice


decreases = depleted ?


Mean racetam will make us prone to Alzheimer disease by depletion of glutamate?


Alzheimer's disease: Glutamate depletion in the hippocampal perforant pathway zone

Edited by Nootropix, 03 January 2013 - 07:29 PM.

[LBGSHI]

Piracetam decreases the glutamate content of the brains of mice


decreases = depleted ?


Mean racetam will make us prone to Alzheimer disease by depletion of glutamate?


Alzheimer's disease: Glutamate depletion in the hippocampal perforant pathway zone

Since the racetams cause increased glutamate release in the brain, yet the remaining glutamate content in the brain after extended use is decreased, this indeed implies depletion if supplementation or additional dietary intake is not followed.

As for Alzheimer's Disease, that paper refers to a chronic depletion of glutamate by destruction of the perforant pathway which supplies it to the hippocampus. A temporary depletion of glutamate has nothing to do with Alzheimer's Disease.

Edited by LBGSHI, 03 January 2013 - 08:35 PM.

[LBGSHI]

The question is: has anyone here tried supplementing glutamic acid (glutamate) alongside one of the racetams? Were positive results obtained?

I've begun taking 500mg of glutamic acid twice daily (starting the day before yesterday), alongside my first (7AM) and second (11AM) doses of oxiracetam (1600mg) and centrophenoxine (800mg). Two to three days per week, I replace centrophenoxine with alpha-GPC (300mg), as prolonged centrophenoxine use seems to be overstimulating, leading to mental fatigue (I took it for three weeks solid when I started taking it, and it was pretty rough by the end of week three, given that it's only supposed to be taken for a week at max...although some people seem to be capable of taking it indefinitely). Thus far, the results of glutamic acid seem to be an increased intensity of the effects of oxiracetam, and a little boost to mental energy in general. It's quite possible that these are related to dietary or psychological fluctuations, or even placebo, and since I've been very busy lately and didn't get very good sleep for the past few days, the test itself is a bit flawed. Still, it would appear that glutamic acid is quite beneficial when taken with oxiracetam, and given probable depletion of glutamate stores with prolonged use of the racetams, the effect of glutamic acid supplementation should be more pronounced for chronic racetam users than new ones (who likely still have sufficient glutamate levels). I'll increase dosage to 1 gram per dose after a few more days of assessment at 500mg (and after restoring proper sleep to ensure a good test), and report back with results as they unfold. If anyone else is interested in trying glutamic acid alongside one of the racetams (or is already doing so), please post in this thread and let us know the results.

Edited by LBGSHI, 04 January 2013 - 05:11 PM.

[SuperjackDid_]

After you start thread ,i start supplement l-glutamine and obtained good result in metal energy and focus .

i not supplement glutamic i think i have accident ingest MSG most daily .


i normally try to add more food that high in gluamic/glutamine to maintain good result from racetam ,but after i have start supplement l-glutamine i have much more mental clarity and easier than eat a lot of food source .


this guy also supplement l-glutamine and piracetam and maintain good result more than 10years+

http://www.bulletpro...ublic-speaking/

Edited by Nootropix, 04 January 2013 - 05:06 PM.

[LBGSHI]

After you start thread ,i start supplement l-glutamine and obtained good result in metal energy and focus .

i not supplement glutamic i think i have accident ingest MSG most daily .


i normally try to add more food that high in gluamic/glutamine to maintain good result from racetam ,but after i have start supplement l-glutamine i have much more mental clarity and easier than eat a lot of food source .


this guy also supplement l-glutamine and piracetam and maintain good result more than 10years+

http://www.bulletpro...ublic-speaking/

That's good, but there is a large difference between glutamine and glutamate. Still, given that glutamine can be converted to glutamate, it's likely the effects being obtained are indirectly due to glutamate increase in the brain.

It would be nice to have more anecdotal evidence from people trying glutamate, in the form of glutamic acid supplements or a definite increase in dietary glutamate.

[lourdaud]

Well the glutamate you'd get from food would have to compete with lots of others aminos, you can't compare that to taking glutamate on its own

[Sidewinder]

Is it possible that you can have a overdose of glutamate? If daily foods can give you this much glutamate, then I would wonder if overdosing glutamate via supplements or daily foods would actually be harmful?

Any thoughts or ideas?

[chung_pao]

My first few experiences with piracetam was that it induced mania, which is caused by excessive neurotransmission in certain parts/of certain neurotransmitters.

My second experience just gave me a headache, because I was practicing Intermittent fasting at the time; which meant taking Piracetam + Choline on an empty stomach.
Headache was dismissed by the veterans as "excess acetylcholine".
I call bullshit and do my own homework.

Nowadays, all the racetams have positive effects for me, with Noopept being the strongest.
Why?
Because I take it with protein (including glutamic acid).
That is all I changed, nothing else.

I draw the following conclusions:
1. Depletion of neurotransmitters cause headache. Just think back to your last caffeine withdrawal.
2. All racetams and any other nootropic for that matter must be taken with complete protein, including glutamic acid.
Nootropics will accelerate depletion of neurotransmitters, obviously we'll need to increase the fuel supply to the brain accordingly.

Also, consider the following interesting studies regarding memory consolidation and protein requirements:
http://learnmem.cshl.../9/428.abstract
"Memory consolidation and reconsolidation require kinase activation and protein synthesis. Blocking either process during or shortly after training or recall disrupts memory stabilization, which suggests the existence of a critical time window during which these processes are necessary."

http://www.nature.co...ll/nrn3220.html
"Memory consolidation is widely understood to involve de novoprotein synthesis, as the administration of protein synthesis inhibitors such as anisomycin and cyclohexamide prevents the formation of long-term memory following initial learning."

http://en.wikipedia....otein_synthesis
"Protein synthesis plays an important role in the formation of new memories. Studies have shown that protein synthesis inhibitors administered after learning, weaken memory, suggesting that protein synthesis is required for memory consolidation. Additionally, reports have suggested that the effects of protein synthesis inhibitors also inhibit LTP"


My advice: take piracetam with complete protein, not just glutamic acid.
Protein is capable of elevating blood sugar to stable levels and providing all necessary precursors for neurotransmitters.
I take Racetams + Choline + Protein to be on the safe side; since choline is essential to acetylcholine synthesis.

Regarding the discussion: for most functions of the body protein is essential.
Why would we need something other than glutamic acid for a process as essential as synthesis of Glutamate? (MSG/glutamine)

Edited by chung_pao, 04 January 2013 - 08:43 PM.

[LBGSHI]

Well the glutamate you'd get from food would have to compete with lots of others aminos, you can't compare that to taking glutamate on its own

This is true, although it's also true for any other amino acid, and indeed, virtually any supplement has absorption competitors. To discount dietary intake completely when considering any amino acid or any supplement's safety, merely because absorption will be competitive with other compounds, is not reasonable. However, please do cite any studies you can find describing the plasma glutamate level increases after dietary glutamate consumption vs supplementary (and on an empty stomach); I haven't found any that specifically address this question yet. An interesting note is that the average Chinese citizen now consumes 1.24 grams of MSG per day with food, and the Japanese top even this number, according to the NY Times - http://www.nytimes.c...eat.html?src=pm - and neither is complaining of widespread negative symptoms. As this is a case of free glutamate being added to food, one could assume that taking a glutamic acid supplement with a meal would have the same effect, if unaccompanied supplementation was a concern. Still, consider the data below.

Is it possible that you can have a overdose of glutamate? If daily foods can give you this much glutamate, then I would wonder if overdosing glutamate via supplements or daily foods would actually be harmful?

Any thoughts or ideas?

Yes, overdose is possible, but to accomplish this, you would need to consume a remarkably high dose. In a study (Olney, 1970; referenced below), mice were given monosodium glutamate at 0.25 grams per kilogram of body weight, with no ill effects on brain tissue (autopsy was performed, along with light and electron microscopy to identify possible brain lesions or neuron necrosis). This would be the equivalent of a 150-pound (68 kilogram) human consuming 17 grams, and still there were no ill effects. The next group of mice was given twice that dose, and minor lesions were detected in 52% of these mice, indicating neuronal excitotoxicity and cell death. In proportion, a 150-pound human may experience minor neuronal excitotoxicity, leading to sporadic brain cell death, if he were to consume somewhere between 17 grams and 34 grams of pure monosodium glutamate (and the results above indicate this amount to be something like 25 grams) - however, I would call into question even then whether or not a night of heavy drinking, not uncommon among humans, would cause a similar effect. Glutamic acid supplements are generally provided in 500mg tablets; if you weighed 150 pounds, you would have to ingest 34 of these in one sitting to reach the benchmark of 0.25 grams per kilogram of body weight, and even this high dose was shown to cause no ill effects on the brain tissue of mice: http://www.inchem.or...ono/v22je12.htm

In another study, also referenced in the above paper, mice were given either monosodium glutamate or glutamic acid at 1 gram per kilogram of body weight (a huge amount), then examined for brain lesions. Those that were given monosodium glutamate showed approximately the same number of lesions as those that were given glutamic acid, indicating that both are absorbed and cross the blood brain barrier in approximately equal amounts (and thus, that the above study is directly relevant to glutamic acid supplementation).

In terms of fatal overdose, the lowest result for LD50 obtained by any study was 12.9 grams per kilogram of body weight in mice (in 1964), although many studies have since shown much higher LD50s (see the paper referenced above). Even taking this low LD50 at face value, the corresponding dose for a 150 pound human would be 877.2 grams of glutamic acid, or 1754.4 500mg tablets (this amount wouldn't even fit in the stomach), at which point 50 percent of the test subjects would die via neuronal excitation.

Finally, again from the same paper referenced above, we read the following excerpt:

The threshold plasma levels
for neuronal damage in the mouse, the most sensitive species, are
100-130, 380, and > 630 µmoles/dl in infant, weanling, and adult
animals, respectively. In human studies, plasma levels of this
magnitude have not been recorded even after ingestion of a single dose
of 150 mg MSG/kg b.w. in water.

Per the above citation, plasma levels which caused neuronal damage in mice were not reached in humans even after ingestion of 150 milligrams per kilogram of body weight. In a 150 pound human, this amounts to 10.2 grams, or 20 tablets of 500mg glutamic acid in a single dose. Nevertheless, these humans showed no ill effect even at this level of plasma glutamate.

Edited by LBGSHI, 04 January 2013 - 09:18 PM.

[Sidewinder]

Well the glutamate you'd get from food would have to compete with lots of others aminos, you can't compare that to taking glutamate on its own

This is true, although it's also true for any other amino acid, and indeed, virtually any supplement has absorption competitors. To discount dietary intake completely when considering any amino acid or any supplement's safety, merely because absorption will be competitive with other compounds, is not reasonable. However, please do cite any studies you can find describing the plasma glutamate level increases after dietary glutamate consumption vs supplementary (and on an empty stomach); I haven't found any that specifically address this question yet. An interesting note is that the average Chinese citizen now consumes 1.24 grams of MSG per day with food, and the Japanese top even this number, according to the NY Times - http://www.nytimes.c...eat.html?src=pm - and neither is complaining of widespread negative symptoms. As this is a case of free glutamate being added to food, one could assume that taking a glutamic acid supplement with a meal would have the same effect, if unaccompanied supplementation was a concern. Still, consider the data below.

Is it possible that you can have a overdose of glutamate? If daily foods can give you this much glutamate, then I would wonder if overdosing glutamate via supplements or daily foods would actually be harmful?

Any thoughts or ideas?

Yes, overdose is possible, but to accomplish this, you would need to consume a remarkably high dose. In a study (Olney, 1970; referenced below), mice were given monosodium glutamate at 0.25 grams per kilogram of body weight, with no ill effects on brain tissue (autopsy was performed, along with light and electron microscopy to identify possible brain lesions or neuron necrosis). This would be the equivalent of a 150-pound (68 kilogram) human consuming 17 grams, and still there were no ill effects. The next group of mice was given twice that dose, and minor lesions were detected in 52% of these mice, indicating neuronal excitotoxicity and cell death. In proportion, a 150-pound human may experience minor neuronal excitotoxicity, leading to sporadic brain cell death, if he were to consume somewhere between 17 grams and 34 grams of pure monosodium glutamate (and the results above indicate this amount to be something like 25 grams) - however, I would call into question even then whether or not a night of heavy drinking, not uncommon among humans, would cause a similar effect. Glutamic acid supplements are generally provided in 500mg tablets; if you weighed 150 pounds, you would have to ingest 34 of these in one sitting to reach the benchmark of 0.25 grams per kilogram of body weight, and even this high dose was shown to cause no ill effects on the brain tissue of mice: http://www.inchem.or...ono/v22je12.htm

In another study, also referenced in the above paper, mice were given either monosodium glutamate or glutamic acid at 1 gram per kilogram of body weight (a huge amount), then examined for brain lesions. Those that were given monosodium glutamate showed approximately the same number of lesions as those that were given glutamic acid, indicating that both are absorbed and cross the blood brain barrier in approximately equal amounts (and thus, that the above study is directly relevant to glutamic acid supplementation).

In terms of fatal overdose, the lowest result for LD50 obtained by any study was 12.9 grams per kilogram of body weight in mice (in 1964), although many studies have since shown much higher LD50s (see the paper referenced above). Even taking this low LD50 at face value, the corresponding dose for a 150 pound human would be 877.2 grams of glutamic acid, or 1754.4 500mg tablets (this amount wouldn't even fit in the stomach), at which point 50 percent of the test subjects would die via neuronal excitation.

Finally, again from the same paper referenced above, we read the following excerpt:

The threshold plasma levels
for neuronal damage in the mouse, the most sensitive species, are
100-130, 380, and > 630 µmoles/dl in infant, weanling, and adult
animals, respectively. In human studies, plasma levels of this
magnitude have not been recorded even after ingestion of a single dose
of 150 mg MSG/kg b.w. in water.

Per the above citation, plasma levels which caused neuronal damage in mice were not reached in humans even after ingestion of 150 milligrams per kilogram of body weight. In a 150 pound human, this amounts to 10.2 grams, or 20 tablets of 500mg glutamic acid in a single dose. Nevertheless, these humans showed no ill effect even at this level of plasma glutamate.

Combining this info with the OP, your saying that glutamate supplementation is not recommended because it might cause nueronal death? Ill have to take a closer look at the article you linked.

[Dissolvedissolve]

Combining this info with the OP, your saying that glutamate supplementation is not recommended because it might cause nueronal death? Ill have to take a closer look at the article you linked.

No. His point is that supplementation is very unlikely to hurt you. It also might be pretty irrelevant given how much more glutamic acid is consumed from food.

Also, by the way, LGBSHI, your conversion is actually a bit optimistic. Due to the smaller size of the rat, a straight linear conversion is going to overestimate the human dose. Using an allometric scaling calculator with a rat weighing .25 kg, meaning a dose of 62.5 mg MSG, you get a 68 kg human dose of ~4200 mg. (That's still plenty of MSG.)

[Sidewinder]

Combining this info with the OP, your saying that glutamate supplementation is not recommended because it might cause nueronal death? Ill have to take a closer look at the article you linked.

No. His point is that supplementation is very unlikely to hurt you. It also might be pretty irrelevant given how much more glutamic acid is consumed from food.

Also, by the way, LGBSHI, your conversion is actually a bit optimistic. Due to the smaller size of the rat, a straight linear conversion is going to overestimate the human dose. Using an allometric scaling calculator with a rat weighing .25 kg, meaning a dose of 62.5 mg MSG, you get a 68 kg human dose of ~4200 mg. (That's still plenty of MSG.)

Right, so most people would not need to supplement glutamate. So what about the symptoms of overdose/deficiency? I think it's kinda like cholesterol, you need it, but not too much, right?

[LBGSHI]

Also, by the way, LGBSHI, your conversion is actually a bit optimistic. Due to the smaller size of the rat, a straight linear conversion is going to overestimate the human dose. Using an allometric scaling calculator with a rat weighing .25 kg, meaning a dose of 62.5 mg MSG, you get a 68 kg human dose of ~4200 mg. (That's still plenty of MSG.)

I hadn't considered applying allometry (and was only vaguely aware of it as a concept; now I've read up on it a bit). Thanks for the tip. Still, as mentioned above, several studies have been performed with humans, with even larger doses than that, with no ill effects.

Right, so most people would not need to supplement glutamate. So what about the symptoms of overdose/deficiency? I think it's kinda like cholesterol, you need it, but not too much, right?

Most people would not need to supplement glutamate, but someone taking one of the racetams is depleting their glutamate at a more rapid rate than normal. In this case, glutamate supplementation may be called for. As for overdose and deficiency, this is the same as any other substance in the body - either too much or too little is bad (even too much water will kill you, and not enough water will do the same). However, there seems to be a very wide latitude in this regard, both via dietary sources and pure glutamic acid supplementation. At the least, it bears experimentation.

Incidentally, since I created this thread, I began supplementing 500mg glutamic acid twice per day, on an empty stomach, with 1600mg oxiracetam, and either 300mg alpha-GPC or 800mg centrophenoxine (as I cycle my centrophenoxine a few days on, a few days off, to avoid overstimulation), with no negative side-effects (although this is not surprising, considering the paper above mentions tests with humans consuming many grams of glutamic acid, sometimes chronically, with no ill effects). Anecdotally, it certainly does seem to increase the intensity and effect of oxiracetam.

Edited by LBGSHI, 06 January 2013 - 06:54 PM.

[LBGSHI]

It's been almost a week since I began supplementing glutamic acid alongside my oxiracetam and a choline source (either centrophenoxine or alpha-GPC), and I'm quite satisfied with the increase in intensity of oxiracetam's effects. This is a permanent member of my stack.

[deh707]

It's been almost a week since I began supplementing glutamic acid alongside my oxiracetam and a choline source (either centrophenoxine or alpha-GPC), and I'm quite satisfied with the increase in intensity of oxiracetam's effects. This is a permanent member of my stack.

Where did you get your glutamic acid?

[Raza]

Good thread. Followin'.

[deh707]

It's been almost a week since I began supplementing glutamic acid alongside my oxiracetam and a choline source (either centrophenoxine or alpha-GPC), and I'm quite satisfied with the increase in intensity of oxiracetam's effects. This is a permanent member of my stack.

Where did you get your glutamic acid?

[LBGSHI]

I picked it up from Vitamin Shoppe, for $10 a bottle (500mg x 100 tablets). There were several brands, but I chose Solgar: http://www.vitaminsh...66#.UPBB4qz4Jw0

[SuperjackDid_]

but this thread mentioned that just low dose is need around 10-100mg

http://www.longecity...nefits-from-it/

Is 500mg of glutamic acid twice daily too much ?

Edited by Nootropix, 11 January 2013 - 06:45 PM.

[LBGSHI]

but this thread mentioned that just low dose is need around 10-100mg

Is 500mg of glutamic acid twice daily too much ?

Where did you read that? I certainly don't see that anywhere in this thread.

Point in fact, I'm taking 500mg three times per day This has been highly effective in increasing the effects of oxiracetam.

[Gorthaur]

Inspired by this thread, I've just started piracetam again after a six month break. On my last cycle, I used 2 g piracetam, 250 mg CDP choline, and 125 mg L-Glutamic acid, all twice daily. The effects faded to nothing over about two months. I tried additional L-glutamic acid (500 mg once daily), but that did not enhance the piracetam and gave me terrible tunnel vision and brain fog.

For the past five days I've been taking 5 g piracetam, 200 mg pramiracetam, 250 mg L-glutamic acid (Solgar brand), and 750 mg CDP Choline in the morning. Six hours later I take 5 g piracetam, 250 mg L-glutamic acid, and 500 mg CDP Choline. The effects are excellent and include enhanced short & long term memory, better visual acuity, improved color & sound perception, improved motivation & ambition, etc. For me, CDP choline is vastly superior to Alpha GPC, which lacks the energizing and dopamine-modulating activity of CDP Choline. I also much prefer CDP to centrophenoxine, which invariably gives me headaches.

As I have not been experiencing any adverse effects from the L-glutamic acid, I may increase the dosage in a few days or weeks when I notice the effects of my racetams starting to fade. I am very interested to see if a large enough dose of L-glutamic acid can prevent the tolerance to racetams that I always seem to develop. If this fails, I'll be adding in Schisandra for adrenal support (which I have tested independently with great success) to see if that prevents racetam tolerance.

I have also tried L-glutamine (in 500 mg or 1 g doses) to enhance piracetam. There was no noticeable effect. Supplementing 1 g of L-glutamine alone, I experienced a great sense of well-being for an hour, followed by severe irritability for several hours. On repeating the experiment a few days later, I experienced only severe irritability.

[LBGSHI]

Inspired by this thread, I've just started piracetam again after a six month break. On my last cycle, I used 2 g piracetam, 250 mg CDP choline, and 125 mg L-Glutamic acid, all twice daily. The effects faded to nothing over about two months. I tried additional L-glutamic acid (500 mg once daily), but that did not enhance the piracetam and gave me terrible tunnel vision and brain fog.

For the past five days I've been taking 5 g piracetam, 200 mg pramiracetam, 250 mg L-glutamic acid (Solgar brand), and 750 mg CDP Choline in the morning. Six hours later I take 5 g piracetam, 250 mg L-glutamic acid, and 500 mg CDP Choline. The effects are excellent and include enhanced short & long term memory, better visual acuity, improved color & sound perception, improved motivation & ambition, etc. For me, CDP choline is vastly superior to Alpha GPC, which lacks the energizing and dopamine-modulating activity of CDP Choline. I also much prefer CDP to centrophenoxine, which invariably gives me headaches.

As I have not been experiencing any adverse effects from the L-glutamic acid, I may increase the dosage in a few days or weeks when I notice the effects of my racetams starting to fade. I am very interested to see if a large enough dose of L-glutamic acid can prevent the tolerance to racetams that I always seem to develop. If this fails, I'll be adding in Schisandra for adrenal support (which I have tested independently with great success) to see if that prevents racetam tolerance.

I have also tried L-glutamine (in 500 mg or 1 g doses) to enhance piracetam. There was no noticeable effect. Supplementing 1 g of L-glutamine alone, I experienced a great sense of well-being for an hour, followed by severe irritability for several hours. On repeating the experiment a few days later, I experienced only severe irritability.

Glad I could be of service. Keep us updated.

[SuperjackDid_]

....
My advice: take piracetam with complete protein, not just glutamic acid.

but you not reference any research that racetam lowered others amino acid .

[LBGSHI]

As an update, I've now been taking 500mg of glutamic acid three times daily, with 1600mg oxiracetam and either 800mg centrophenoxine or 300mg alpha-GPC (I alternate between centrophenoxine and alpha-GPC), for over two weeks. I have experienced an increase in the effects of oxiracetam, and no negative side-effects. I take these supplements on an empty stomach, so the glutamic acid is not competing with any other amino acids, or with carbohydrates. At this point, glutamic acid is a permanent member of my stack.

[Olon]

EGCG facilitates glutamate release
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/17663453
and is neuroprotective, nevertheless.

[LBGSHI]

EGCG facilitates glutamate release
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/17663453
and is neuroprotective, nevertheless.

Interesting...and it does so via increased PKC, which is a common mechanism with oxiracetam: http://www.ncbi.nlm....ired DBA/2 mice

[Gorthaur]

I increased my dosage of L-glutamic acid to 500 mg twice a day, which I took with piracetam and CDP choline for the past week. There were no negative side effects at all, but unfortunately, the L-glutamic acid didn't prevent the tolerance to piracetam I always seem to develop. On the plus side, though, I think the addition of L-glutamic acid delayed my tolerance, and I'm also pretty sure it prevented some of the most bothersome side effects I get with piracetam - namely periods of confusion and brain fog. This seems to be consistent with the idea that racetams deplete glutamate, and that lowered glutamate causes general cognitive dysfunction. I'm going to take a break for a week, then try adding in schizandra. I might also try raising my dosage of L-glutamic acid.

[LBGSHI]

I increased my dosage of L-glutamic acid to 500 mg twice a day, which I took with piracetam and CDP choline for the past week. There were no negative side effects at all, but unfortunately, the L-glutamic acid didn't prevent the tolerance to piracetam I always seem to develop. On the plus side, though, I think the addition of L-glutamic acid delayed my tolerance, and I'm also pretty sure it prevented some of the most bothersome side effects I get with piracetam - namely periods of confusion and brain fog. This seems to be consistent with the idea that racetams deplete glutamate, and that lowered glutamate causes general cognitive dysfunction. I'm going to take a break for a week, then try adding in schizandra. I might also try raising my dosage of L-glutamic acid.

Interesting; thanks for the update. It does seem to imply that you're depleting something...

[alecnevsky]

The article and this book excerpt seem to suggest that Glutamine is just as easily converted to Glutamate within the brain. Is there really a discrepancy of any practical importance that is worthy of noting here? If you keep your glutamine levels up via supplements (whey has on avg. 3-5gs of added glutamine) then, shouldn't you be just as well off as supplementing negligible amount of glutamate directly? I just don't see how, if having eaten a cob of corn, your body would selectively decide to "fund" either, though not both, the muscles (via glutamine) or the brain (via glutamic acid.) It seems it's more likely to go where it is most needed and., in case of piracetam, it seems it's more likely to go to the brain in form of glutamate. Maybe I am missing something crucial.

I just ordered both (with piracetam) and will update, h/e I was just wondering meanwhile b/c I am relatively new to pir + glu combo although I've done a lot of more "novel" noops in the past.