• Log in with Facebook Log in with Twitter Log In with Google      Sign In    
  • Create Account
  LongeCity
              Advocacy & Research for Unlimited Lifespans

Photo
* * * * * 1 votes

Increase Elastin production and utilization


  • Please log in to reply
52 replies to this topic

#1 bernard

  • Guest
  • 355 posts
  • 3
  • Location:United States

Posted 06 January 2013 - 06:28 PM


Hello,
I was wondering the other day... Studies show that elastin is one of the key players when it comes to healthy, youthful skin and also preventing stretch marks. Elastin is also very important for blood vessel function health and also for internal organ elasticity. Everyone should try to maintain high elastin levels. Like most other things (except probably for stupidity), elastin levels decrease as we age.
Since it's a protein hormone formed by the infamous glycine, valine, alanine, and proline amino acids it should be pretty easy to stimulate its production via peptides.
If we can do that, the next step should be to try and find a way to maintain elastin sensitvity and elastin receptor density.
Most of the stuff out there is bogus - some commercial face creams and what not. Clearly I'm not talking about that level of chemicals here.

Is there anyone here who has been researching elastin for a long time and knows more about this problem ? Are there any peptides, herbs or chemicals that really aid in elastin production and utilization ? I'm really eager to find out.

#2 mustardseed41

  • Guest
  • 928 posts
  • 38
  • Location:Atlanta, Georgia

Posted 06 January 2013 - 08:01 PM

Vitamin k2 seems promising. Been taking it for 4 years.

http://chriskresser....-and-probiotics

http://www.longecity...tin-metabolism/

Edited by mustardseed41, 06 January 2013 - 08:02 PM.


sponsored ad

  • Advert
Click HERE to rent this advertising spot for AGELESS LOOKS to support LongeCity (this will replace the google ad above).

#3 bernard

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest
  • 355 posts
  • 3
  • Location:United States

Posted 06 January 2013 - 08:46 PM

Vitamin k2 seems promising. Been taking it for 4 years.

http://chriskresser....-and-probiotics

http://www.longecity...tin-metabolism/


Well that's not good enough. Here's a few reasons why:
- Calcium supplementation is too beneficial or at least seems beneficial at this point to just forget about. Since magnesium and calcium have antagonistic properties to one another the only wise thing i can come up with is to separate Calcium and Magnesium intake by a few hours. (Makes you wonder about those Cal-Mag supplements, doesn't it ?)
- Vitamin K is worth considering, but should be taken apart from Vitamin E supplementation as studies have shown that the two when combined may cause internal bleeding.

The other ones are not interesting to me (e.g. silica, niacin etc.) because most likely we are all taking these already.

Now here is something interesting - since one of the studies show that excess calcium promotes loss of elasticity it would be worth mentioning that higher protein intake (which is highly beneficial for elastin production) lowers calcium levels in the body. So... if you are taking calcium you should increase protein and vit.D consumption to help increase calcium absorption and decrease circulating calcium. Another thing worth considering is to switch from calcium citrate to calcium lactate which supposedly has better absorption.

I am really looking forward to finding out a way to stimulate elastin and elastase directly via peptides.

#4 Logic

  • Guest
  • 2,661 posts
  • 587
  • Location:Kimberley, South Africa
  • NO

Posted 07 January 2013 - 10:03 AM

Butchers Broom & Horse Chestnut are elastase inhibitors.
http://www.google.co...iw=1058&bih=491

Pycnogenol fixes the collagen cross links
http://www.google.co...gen cross links

#5 bernard

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest
  • 355 posts
  • 3
  • Location:United States

Posted 07 January 2013 - 10:17 AM

Why would you want to inhibit elastase ? Without this enzyme elastin becomes useless the same way insulin cannot be utilized by muscle tissue without insulinase (aka Insuline Degrading Enzyme).

Enzymes are not like neurotransmitter transporters where a reuptake inhibitor actually enhances neurotransmitter functions and quantity. Enzymes are crucial for the utilization of their respective chemicals. For example cellulose cannot be digested by humans because we don't produce cellulase. Another good example is how the enzyme telomerase is crucial for increasing telomere length.

We should be looking to increase elastase actually.

Edited by Tatsumaru, 07 January 2013 - 10:22 AM.


#6 Logic

  • Guest
  • 2,661 posts
  • 587
  • Location:Kimberley, South Africa
  • NO

Posted 07 January 2013 - 01:23 PM

Why would you want to inhibit elastase ? Without this enzyme elastin becomes useless the same way insulin cannot be utilized by muscle tissue without insulinase (aka Insuline Degrading Enzyme).

Enzymes are not like neurotransmitter transporters where a reuptake inhibitor actually enhances neurotransmitter functions and quantity. Enzymes are crucial for the utilization of their respective chemicals. For example cellulose cannot be digested by humans because we don't produce cellulase. Another good example is how the enzyme telomerase is crucial for increasing telomere length.

We should be looking to increase elastase actually.


Incorrect: Elastase breaks down elistin.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elastase

Wish I knew more; still swatting this.

#7 niner

  • Guest
  • 16,276 posts
  • 1,999
  • Location:Philadelphia

Posted 07 January 2013 - 01:44 PM

- Calcium supplementation is too beneficial or at least seems beneficial at this point to just forget about. Since magnesium and calcium have antagonistic properties to one another the only wise thing i can come up with is to separate Calcium and Magnesium intake by a few hours. (Makes you wonder about those Cal-Mag supplements, doesn't it ?)


Calcium supplementation increases elastase production? Aside from correcting a gross Ca deficiency, what's the evidence for this? Separating Ca and Mg intake is unlikely to matter much.

- Vitamin K is worth considering, but should be taken apart from Vitamin E supplementation as studies have shown that the two when combined may cause internal bleeding.


In normal supplemental doses? This sounds like nonsense. Got a reference?

Elastin is a structural protein, not a hormone. As Logic correctly points out, you don't want to increase elastase.

Edited by niner, 07 January 2013 - 01:51 PM.

  • like x 2
  • Agree x 1

#8 bernard

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest
  • 355 posts
  • 3
  • Location:United States

Posted 07 January 2013 - 02:31 PM

Why would you want to inhibit elastase ? Without this enzyme elastin becomes useless the same way insulin cannot be utilized by muscle tissue without insulinase (aka Insuline Degrading Enzyme).

Enzymes are not like neurotransmitter transporters where a reuptake inhibitor actually enhances neurotransmitter functions and quantity. Enzymes are crucial for the utilization of their respective chemicals. For example cellulose cannot be digested by humans because we don't produce cellulase. Another good example is how the enzyme telomerase is crucial for increasing telomere length.

We should be looking to increase elastase actually.


Incorrect: Elastase breaks down elistin.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elastase

Wish I knew more; still swatting this.

Of course it breaks down elastin. That's the role of enzymes. And as I pointed out so does insulinase, insulin. It's called Insulin-Degrading-Enzyme for a reason. Without breaking it you can't utilize it. Again => refer to the cellulose/cellulase example.
Think about those lactose intolerant people who can't utilize lactose because they don't produce the lactase enzyme. Without breaking old elastic fiber there is no way to create new elastic fiber. The same way bodybuilders aim to make muscle fibre more fragile - more damage results in more recovery which in turn results in more new fiber.

- Calcium supplementation is too beneficial or at least seems beneficial at this point to just forget about. Since magnesium and calcium have antagonistic properties to one another the only wise thing i can come up with is to separate Calcium and Magnesium intake by a few hours. (Makes you wonder about those Cal-Mag supplements, doesn't it ?)


Calcium supplementation increases elastase production? Aside from correcting a gross Ca deficiency, what's the evidence for this? Separating Ca and Mg intake is unlikely to matter much.

- Vitamin K is worth considering, but should be taken apart from Vitamin E supplementation as studies have shown that the two when combined may cause internal bleeding.


In normal supplemental doses? This sounds like nonsense. Got a reference?

Elastin is a structural protein, not a hormone. As Logic correctly points out, you don't want to increase elastase.


1. I never said calcium increases elastase. I don't know where you came up with that. In fact calcium inhibits elastase induced cleavage,
Link: http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/20378199

a. Whether calcium supplementation is beneficial or not is out of the question. It obviously is. Most of the idiot scientists who report back calcification of arteries after calcium supplementation are simply not including vit.D which is mandatory for calcium utilization. That's why nutritionists say that dairy calcium is better. It's not really better. It's just that the lactic acid and vit.D inside make the calcium absorbable. Also most people take calcium carbonate which is the worst form of calcium since the CO3 neutralizes stomach acid and further prevents calcium absorption.


2. Vitamin K and Vitamin E interference is nothing new. Both compete for the same liver enzyme cytochrome P450 which leads to excretion/malabsorption issues.
Link: http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19019024

#9 Logic

  • Guest
  • 2,661 posts
  • 587
  • Location:Kimberley, South Africa
  • NO

Posted 07 January 2013 - 04:25 PM

Of course it breaks down elastin. That's the role of enzymes...


Some quick further reading seems to indicate that the elastase enzyme is secreted in bile to break down the elastin protien in the food we eat.
So it seems that you are correct Tatsumaru; my apologies.

Further research is required (by me) on the subject of elastase in the viens, skin etc. and how Butchers Broom & Horse Chestnut etc. help here, but they do seem to.

http://www.wallsburg.../page/406097572

#10 JohnD60

  • Guest
  • 540 posts
  • 70
  • Location:Colorado

Posted 07 January 2013 - 04:56 PM

Interesting subject. But, I do not concur with your logic concerning needing to breakdown dietary elastin with elastase in order build more elastin in the body. It seems to me that the body has access to more than enough amino acids to make elastin, it just does not, for whatever reason, chose to make much (any?) elastin after about 14 years of age.
It would seem to me that localized injecting of elastin or elastin growth stimulating chemicals might be the better approach, but I have a fundamental shortfall of understanding of how elastin is made (some information on the internet even claims that adults do not make any elastin, which seems unlikely to me) in the human body. If all else fails try dermabrasion.
  • like x 1

#11 Jembe

  • Guest
  • 92 posts
  • 21
  • Location:Sweden

Posted 08 January 2013 - 07:03 PM

2. Vitamin K and Vitamin E interference is nothing new. Both compete for the same liver enzyme cytochrome P450 which leads to excretion/malabsorption issues.
Link: http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19019024


Does this apply even if the form of K taken is K2 MK-4? I take E as well, should I quit E?

#12 bernard

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest
  • 355 posts
  • 3
  • Location:United States

Posted 08 January 2013 - 08:05 PM

2. Vitamin K and Vitamin E interference is nothing new. Both compete for the same liver enzyme cytochrome P450 which leads to excretion/malabsorption issues.
Link: http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19019024


Does this apply even if the form of K taken is K2 MK-4? I take E as well, should I quit E?


Well I don't know what's the answer to that question. I'd tell you to take K in the morning and E in the evening but that wouldn't make a difference since they are fat-soluble vitamins.

I've been taking multivitamin supplements that contain both E and K for a long time and I can confirm that no problems occur at least in healthy people. However the question here is whether one cancels the other.

Maybe you should take vit. E every other day and vitamin K every day.

#13 Logic

  • Guest
  • 2,661 posts
  • 587
  • Location:Kimberley, South Africa
  • NO

Posted 18 January 2013 - 03:15 PM

LOXL as a target to increase the elastin content in adult skin: a dill extract induces the LOXL gene expression.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/16842595

http://www.longecity...tin-metabolism/

http://www.longecity...r-elastin-hair/

#14 bernard

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest
  • 355 posts
  • 3
  • Location:United States

Posted 18 January 2013 - 03:23 PM

LOXL as a target to increase the elastin content in adult skin: a dill extract induces the LOXL gene expression.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/16842595

http://www.longecity...tin-metabolism/

http://www.longecity...r-elastin-hair/


That looks quite interesting. I wonder if it works better orally or topically applied.

#15 niner

  • Guest
  • 16,276 posts
  • 1,999
  • Location:Philadelphia

Posted 19 January 2013 - 04:01 AM

We should be looking to increase elastase actually.

Incorrect: Elastase breaks down elistin.

Of course it breaks down elastin. That's the role of enzymes. And as I pointed out so does insulinase, insulin. It's called Insulin-Degrading-Enzyme for a reason. Without breaking it you can't utilize it. Again => refer to the cellulose/cellulase example.
Think about those lactose intolerant people who can't utilize lactose because they don't produce the lactase enzyme. Without breaking old elastic fiber there is no way to create new elastic fiber. The same way bodybuilders aim to make muscle fibre more fragile - more damage results in more recovery which in turn results in more new fiber.

I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what elastin is, how it's made, and how our own elastin (not the elastin of the animals we eat) is broken down. From Wikipedia page on elastin:

Elastin is a protein in connective tissue that is elastic and allows many tissues in the body to resume their shape after stretching or contracting. Elastin helps skin to return to its original position when it is poked or pinched. Elastin is also an important load-bearing tissue in the bodies of vertebrates and used in places where mechanical energy is required to be stored.

Elastase exists in many parts of the body, and if it's not adequately inhibited with alpha-1 antitrypsin, it will hydrolyze structural elastin, leading to diseases like emphysema. It is not necessary to eat elastin in order to make more elastin. All proteins in the diet will be hydrolyzed into amino acids, and some of them will be used to make new proteins. It doesn't matter where they come from.

- Calcium supplementation is too beneficial or at least seems beneficial at this point to just forget about. Since magnesium and calcium have antagonistic properties to one another the only wise thing i can come up with is to separate Calcium and Magnesium intake by a few hours. (Makes you wonder about those Cal-Mag supplements, doesn't it ?)


Calcium supplementation increases elastase production? Aside from correcting a gross Ca deficiency, what's the evidence for this? Separating Ca and Mg intake is unlikely to matter much.

- Vitamin K is worth considering, but should be taken apart from Vitamin E supplementation as studies have shown that the two when combined may cause internal bleeding.


In normal supplemental doses? This sounds like nonsense. Got a reference?

Elastin is a structural protein, not a hormone. As Logic correctly points out, you don't want to increase elastase.


1. I never said calcium increases elastase. I don't know where you came up with that. In fact calcium inhibits elastase induced cleavage,
Link: http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/20378199

Well, you brought up Ca supplementation in a thread about elastin production... Sorry if I misunderstood. That paper has nothing to do with elastin. It's about cleavage of surfactant protein D.

2. Vitamin K and Vitamin E interference is nothing new. Both compete for the same liver enzyme cytochrome P450 which leads to excretion/malabsorption issues.
Link: http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19019024

E causes bleeding problems in some people. It's hypothesized to have something to do with vitamin K, but it's not known exactly what is happening. This doesn't mean that E will cause K to not be absorbed.

#16 niner

  • Guest
  • 16,276 posts
  • 1,999
  • Location:Philadelphia

Posted 19 January 2013 - 04:06 AM

2. Vitamin K and Vitamin E interference is nothing new. Both compete for the same liver enzyme cytochrome P450 which leads to excretion/malabsorption issues.
Link: http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19019024

Does this apply even if the form of K taken is K2 MK-4? I take E as well, should I quit E?

According to the hypotheses presented in the linked abstract, it is less likely to matter if you take K2. You don't need to stop taking E on this basis unless it is actually causing bleeding problems.

#17 JohnD60

  • Guest
  • 540 posts
  • 70
  • Location:Colorado

Posted 19 January 2013 - 05:20 PM

LOXL as a target to increase the elastin content in adult skin: a dill extract induces the LOXL gene expression.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/16842595


That looks quite interesting. I wonder if it works better orally or topically applied.

I read the study. The results are based upon human cell cultures in petrie dishes.Not actual people.

I found this site that claims to be developing a product for elastin production by blocking DHT receptors in the fibroblasts.
www.ethocyninfo.com/ I am still reviewing, but very interesting

eta: http://www.dermstore...CFc6DQgodBBcA7Q
this is a site that sells the product. The research in the first link is very impressive, but the product seems to have been around for quite a while. The fact that it is not a highly well known billion dollar line makes me suspicious that the research is B.S. I am having a hard time reconciling the two different realities. A moderatelly critical review of ethocyn http://www.smartskin...al/ethocyn.html

Edited by JohnD60, 19 January 2013 - 06:03 PM.


#18 Logic

  • Guest
  • 2,661 posts
  • 587
  • Location:Kimberley, South Africa
  • NO

Posted 20 January 2013 - 06:27 PM

I read the study. The results are based upon human cell cultures in petrie dishes.Not actual people.


In vivo studies:
http://journals.ohio...pagesize=&mlt=y

I have a feeling Dill is about to become a lot more popular around here: :)

"...In vivo, skin firmness and elastic recovery measured using cutometry methods were also significantly improved compared to placebo in volunteers treated for 56 days with a formula containing 1% of dill extract. Moreover, the clinical evaluation evidenced significant improvements in ‘skin elasticity’ compared to placebo. A majority of subjects treated with the dill extract also noted significant improvements in skin elasticity, firmness and slackness of the jaw line. Finally, mean wrinkle area and length were also significantly reduced compared to placebo after 84 days as measured using silicone replicas taken from the crow’s feet. In summary, this study showed that the dill extract could improve elasticity of DEs in vitro as well as skin biomechanical properties and appearance in vivo..."

#19 JohnD60

  • Guest
  • 540 posts
  • 70
  • Location:Colorado

Posted 20 January 2013 - 07:01 PM

In vivo studies:
http://journals.ohio...pagesize=&mlt=y

I have a feeling Dill is about to become a lot more popular around here: :)

"...In vivo, skin firmness and elastic recovery measured using cutometry methods were also significantly improved compared to placebo in volunteers treated for 56 days with a formula containing 1% of dill extract. Moreover, the clinical evaluation evidenced significant improvements in ‘skin elasticity’ compared to placebo. A majority of subjects treated with the dill extract also noted significant improvements in skin elasticity, firmness and slackness of the jaw line. Finally, mean wrinkle area and length were also significantly reduced compared to placebo after 84 days as measured using silicone replicas taken from the crow’s feet. In summary, this study showed that the dill extract could improve elasticity of DEs in vitro as well as skin biomechanical properties and appearance in vivo..."

So how was the Dill extract applied in this in vivo study, topically, swallowed or injected?
Direct measurement of skin elasticity seems kind of sketching to me.
I am not sure what 'dill extract' means, so I it isn't clear to me how anyone could utilitze this study to improve their skin.

eta: I did some research on making extracts, it is actually very easy. Though it is still not clear to me if 'dill' is universally uniform, or not. I also found some skin care products that claim to have dill or dill extract in them, but being skin care products they don't give concentrations and they are commically expensive.

Edited by JohnD60, 20 January 2013 - 07:44 PM.


#20 niner

  • Guest
  • 16,276 posts
  • 1,999
  • Location:Philadelphia

Posted 20 January 2013 - 10:57 PM

Here's another one: (source)

Arch Dermatol Res. 2008 Apr;300 Suppl 1:S7-20.
Recent advances in characterizing biological mechanisms underlying UV-induced wrinkles: a pivotal role of fibrobrast-derived elastase.
Imokawa G.

Katayanagi Institute-W204, School of Bionics, Tokyo University of Technology, 1404-1 Katakura Hachioji, Tokyo 192-0982, Japan. imokawa@bs.teu.ac.jp

In clinical studies, the formation of facial wrinkles has been closely linked to the loss of elastic properties of the skin. Cumulative irradiation with ultraviolet (UV) B at suberythemal doses significantly reduces the elastic properties of the skin, resulting in the formation of wrinkles. In in vitro studies, we identified a paracrine pathway between keratinocytes and fibroblasts, which leads to wrinkle formation via the up-regulation of fibroblast elastases that degrade elastic fibers. UVB irradiation stimulates the activity of fibroblast elastases in animal skin. Scanning electron microscopy revealed that cumulative UVB irradiation elicits a marked alteration in the three-dimensional structure of elastic fibers, which is closely associated with the subsequent reduction in the elastic properties of the skin, resulting in wrinkle formation. Studies using anti-wrinkle treatments suggest a close relationship between the recovery of wrinkles and an improvement in the linearity of elastic fibers. Those studies also suggest a close correlation between the recovery in the linearity of elastic fibers and the improvement in skin elasticity. In a study using ovariectomized animals, we characterized the important role of elastase in their high vulnerability to UV-induced wrinkle formation. A synthetic inhibitor specific for fibroblast elastases significantly prevents wrinkle formation without reducing the elastic properties of the skin, accompanied by minor damage in elastic fibers. Finally, we identified an effective extract of Zingiber officinale (L.) Rose from a screen of many herb extracts, which has a safe and potent inhibitory activity against fibroblast elastases. Animal studies using the L. Rose extract revealed that it has significant preventive effects against UVB-induced wrinkle formation, which occur in concert with beneficial effects on skin elasticity. A 1-year clinical study on human facial skin to determine the efficacy of the L. Rose extract demonstrated that it inhibits the UV-induced decrease in skin elasticity and prevents or improves wrinkle formation in skin around the corner of the eye without changing the water content of the stratum corneum. Our long-term studies support our hypothesis for a mechanism of wrinkle formation in which cytokine expression is activated by UV irradiation and triggers dermal fibroblasts to increase the expression of elastase. That increase in elastase results in the deterioration of the three-dimensional architecture of elastic fibers, reducing skin elasticity and finally leading to the formation of wrinkles.

PMID: 17968573


Does anyone understand the "Rose" nomenclature? Is that a reference to the flower of the ginger plant, as opposed to the rhizome, or is it some sort of cultivar indicator?

Here's a site that sells ginger extract. Cheap, too. I don't know for sure that it's the right stuff, but at least it's a skin site rather than some sketchy outfit on Alibaba.

#21 mustardseed41

  • Guest
  • 928 posts
  • 38
  • Location:Atlanta, Georgia

Posted 20 January 2013 - 11:39 PM

Here's another one: (source)

Arch Dermatol Res. 2008 Apr;300 Suppl 1:S7-20.
Recent advances in characterizing biological mechanisms underlying UV-induced wrinkles: a pivotal role of fibrobrast-derived elastase.
Imokawa G.

Katayanagi Institute-W204, School of Bionics, Tokyo University of Technology, 1404-1 Katakura Hachioji, Tokyo 192-0982, Japan. imokawa@bs.teu.ac.jp

In clinical studies, the formation of facial wrinkles has been closely linked to the loss of elastic properties of the skin. Cumulative irradiation with ultraviolet (UV) B at suberythemal doses significantly reduces the elastic properties of the skin, resulting in the formation of wrinkles. In in vitro studies, we identified a paracrine pathway between keratinocytes and fibroblasts, which leads to wrinkle formation via the up-regulation of fibroblast elastases that degrade elastic fibers. UVB irradiation stimulates the activity of fibroblast elastases in animal skin. Scanning electron microscopy revealed that cumulative UVB irradiation elicits a marked alteration in the three-dimensional structure of elastic fibers, which is closely associated with the subsequent reduction in the elastic properties of the skin, resulting in wrinkle formation. Studies using anti-wrinkle treatments suggest a close relationship between the recovery of wrinkles and an improvement in the linearity of elastic fibers. Those studies also suggest a close correlation between the recovery in the linearity of elastic fibers and the improvement in skin elasticity. In a study using ovariectomized animals, we characterized the important role of elastase in their high vulnerability to UV-induced wrinkle formation. A synthetic inhibitor specific for fibroblast elastases significantly prevents wrinkle formation without reducing the elastic properties of the skin, accompanied by minor damage in elastic fibers. Finally, we identified an effective extract of Zingiber officinale (L.) Rose from a screen of many herb extracts, which has a safe and potent inhibitory activity against fibroblast elastases. Animal studies using the L. Rose extract revealed that it has significant preventive effects against UVB-induced wrinkle formation, which occur in concert with beneficial effects on skin elasticity. A 1-year clinical study on human facial skin to determine the efficacy of the L. Rose extract demonstrated that it inhibits the UV-induced decrease in skin elasticity and prevents or improves wrinkle formation in skin around the corner of the eye without changing the water content of the stratum corneum. Our long-term studies support our hypothesis for a mechanism of wrinkle formation in which cytokine expression is activated by UV irradiation and triggers dermal fibroblasts to increase the expression of elastase. That increase in elastase results in the deterioration of the three-dimensional architecture of elastic fibers, reducing skin elasticity and finally leading to the formation of wrinkles.

PMID: 17968573


Does anyone understand the "Rose" nomenclature? Is that a reference to the flower of the ginger plant, as opposed to the rhizome, or is it some sort of cultivar indicator?

Here's a site that sells ginger extract. Cheap, too. I don't know for sure that it's the right stuff, but at least it's a skin site rather than some sketchy outfit on Alibaba.


I'm actually using that ginger extract from that company in a DIY serum I make. I've bough many times from them. Quality stuff and great prices. Shipping is slow cause its in the Philippines.

#22 JohnD60

  • Guest
  • 540 posts
  • 70
  • Location:Colorado

Posted 21 January 2013 - 03:45 AM

I have a quart of dill extract 'brewing' as I type. Bottle of vodka $11, an ounce of fresh dill $2. Poured out some of the vodka, stuffed in the dill, expect to shake it a dozen times a day, then filter after a week. Not sure what to do after filtering. Spreading Vodka on my skin doesn't seem right. Adding the vodka to a moisturizer does not seem right either. I am thinking they may have used some other solvent other than Vodka. But I don't know what that might have been.

eta: i am further confused by the fact that the ginger extract you linked to is a powder. If it is just a powder then why go to the trouble of extracting it, why not just crush the ginger into a powder?

Edited by JohnD60, 21 January 2013 - 03:49 AM.


#23 niner

  • Guest
  • 16,276 posts
  • 1,999
  • Location:Philadelphia

Posted 21 January 2013 - 04:01 AM

i am further confused by the fact that the ginger extract you linked to is a powder. If it is just a powder then why go to the trouble of extracting it, why not just crush the ginger into a powder?


Extracts remove the soluble components of herbs or other plant parts, and you're left with a solution of those compounds in the extraction solvent. If you then evaporate off the solvent, the compounds crystallize out, and you have solids. Most extracts in the supplement world are used as solids, not as solutions. In the cooking world, it's more common to find extracts in the form of solutions, like typical vanilla extract. I've been looking for vanilla extract powder for a while, but haven't found a local source. I'll probably have to buy it online.

If you crushed the ginger, then you'd have a lot of cellulose and other junk mixed in with the active compounds.

#24 JohnD60

  • Guest
  • 540 posts
  • 70
  • Location:Colorado

Posted 21 January 2013 - 04:55 AM

thanks. I will try to evaporate off the vodka after the extraction process and report my sucess or failure. Presumably I would then add the dry extract to a skin moisturizer or sunscreen at 1-2% by weight. I hope the extract does not smell, I hate the smell of Dill.

Rough calculation: 1 oz fresh Dill results in 3 grams of dry extract. 3 grams of dry extract at 2% concentration would produce 150 grams or about 6 oz. of dill spiked skin cream. I may need a bigger boat.

eta: I ordered 30g of the ginger powder also. it would seem wise, labor wise, to add both to the skin cream, each at a 1% concentration. Possibly redundant, i doubt they would cancel each other out.

Edited by JohnD60, 21 January 2013 - 05:22 AM.


#25 Logic

  • Guest
  • 2,661 posts
  • 587
  • Location:Kimberley, South Africa
  • NO

Posted 21 January 2013 - 07:23 AM

"...Quite surprisingly, Composition 1 containing both 1% Rubus fruticosus and 1% Peucedanum graveolens demonstrated a synergistic improvement in skin elasticity. The combined effect was greater than the sum of the separate effects of even 2% Rubus fruticosus and 1% Peucedanum graveolens alone. In fact, the improvement in elasticity for Composition 1 containing both 1% Rubus fruticosus and 1% Peucedanum graveolens was more than triple that of the sum of the separate effects of 2% Rubus fruticosus (Composition C) and 1% Peucedanum graveolens (Composition D). Furthermore, this surprising synergy held for both gross elasticity and net increase in elastic recovery."
http://www.freepaten...om/8080265.html

This patent provides details on how to make the extracts and/or where to buy them!

#26 Logic

  • Guest
  • 2,661 posts
  • 587
  • Location:Kimberley, South Africa
  • NO

Posted 21 January 2013 - 07:39 AM

A novel anti-ageing mechanism for retinol: induction of dermal elastin synthesis and elastin fibre formation
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/20704601

#27 Logic

  • Guest
  • 2,661 posts
  • 587
  • Location:Kimberley, South Africa
  • NO

Posted 21 January 2013 - 07:51 AM

I dont know how trustworthy Web MD is?
http://www.webmd.com...edientName=DILL

"...When applied to the skin, dill can sometimes cause skin irritation. Fresh dill juice can also cause the skin to become extra sensitive to the sun..."

"...Dill might have an effect like a water pill or "diuretic." Taking dill might decrease how well the body gets rid of lithium. This could increase how much lithium is in the body and result in serious side effects..."

#28 JohnD60

  • Guest
  • 540 posts
  • 70
  • Location:Colorado

Posted 21 January 2013 - 03:38 PM

Thanks for the patant link. The reference to Lys'lastin is interesting, but there does not appear to be any place to purchase it. I am skeptical that the claim of synergism is one of convience. It would seem to me that the synergism claim would be the only way the party applying for the patent would be granted a patent for merely combining two similar existing skin care procedures.

#29 Logic

  • Guest
  • 2,661 posts
  • 587
  • Location:Kimberley, South Africa
  • NO

Posted 22 January 2013 - 01:28 PM

Thanks for the patant link. The reference to Lys'lastin is interesting, but there does not appear to be any place to purchase it. I am skeptical that the claim of synergism is one of convience. It would seem to me that the synergism claim would be the only way the party applying for the patent would be granted a patent for merely combining two similar existing skin care procedures.


Quote from patent: "...One particularly suitable dill extract is a “dill fruit,” 5%-10% in water, commercially available from BASF of Parsippany, N.J., as “Lys'lastin.”..."

I cannot comment on synergism claim, but blackberry leaves (known as Mulberry here) are abundant; so why not?

The extraction process:

"...In a preferred embodiment, the blackberry extract is a blackberry leaf extract..."

"...A particularly preferred tropoelastin promoter is a blackberry extract. By “blackberry extract,” it is meant an extract of a plant of the genus Rubus, and preferably Rubus fruticosus. In one embodiment, the extract is isolated from the flowers of the plant. In a further embodiment, the extract is isolated from dried flowers of the plant. Such extracts may be isolated from one or more parts of the plant (e.g., the whole plant, flower, seed, root, rhizome, stem, fruit and/or leaf of the plant). In a preferred embodiment, the blackberry extract is a blackberry leaf extract.
The extraction process may include physically removing a piece of such plant, and, for example, grinding it. Suitable compounds may also be isolated from the plant by using extraction procedures well known in the art, e.g., the use of organic solvents such as lower C1-C8 alcohols, C1-C8 alkyl polyols, C1-C8 alkyl ketones, C1-C8 alkyl ethers, acetic acid C1-C8 alkyl esters, and chloroform, and/or inorganic solvents such as water, inorganic acids such as hydrochloric acid, and inorganic bases such as sodium hydroxide.
For example, a blackberry extract may be prepared by an extraction with water, alcohols such as ethanol, or combination thereof. It is preferred to use an extractant including both ethanol and water.
The blackberry plant parts are preferably dried prior to extraction. It is preferable to use only the leaves of the blackberry plant and not other plant parts such as the fruit (berries) of the blackberry, its branches, or roots.
In one embodiment, blackberry leaf extract is prepared as follows: a) an extractant containing an alcohol selected from the group consisting of methanol, ethanol, n-propanol, and isopropanol is added to blackberry leaves, and b) the blackberry leaves are contacted with the extractant for up to 72 hours.
The ratio of the mass of extractant to leaf solids is preferably established such that at least a 10-fold mass of extractant relative to the leaf solids but preferably no more than a 50-fold mass of extractant relative to the leaf solids is obtained, preferably a 10- to 20-fold mass. A 14- to 18-fold mass of extractant relative to the leaf solids is particularly preferable. Good results were achieved with a 16-fold mass of an ethanol-containing solvent (relative to the leaf solids).
The time for performing extraction step b) is at most 72 hours but can also be shorter. With particularly short extraction times only a very dilute extract is obtained in step b). It is therefore preferable to extract the blackberry leaves in step b) for at least 1 hour, in particular for at least 2 hours. The necessary extraction time is chosen on the basis of the quality of the blackberry leaves to be extracted, particularly their age, and of the other extraction conditions, particularly the extraction temperature. At elevated extraction temperatures, in particular at an extraction temperature in the range from 60 to 100° C., preferably in the range from 80 to 100° C., the extraction time is preferably 1 hour to 6 hours, particularly 2 hours to 4 hours.
In addition, it is particularly preferable to perform the extraction in step b) by refluxing the extractant, particularly at temperatures up to about 100° C., preferably in the range from 80 to 100° C. In this case the extraction time is preferably no more than 24 hours.
The extraction temperature is established on the basis of the extractant that is used. If an ethanol-containing solvent is used, a temperature in the range of 60° C. to 100° C., in particular in the range of 80° C. to 100° C., is preferred, particularly if a mixture of ethanol and water is used as the extractant as described below.
It is preferable if the extractant contains an alcohol, particularly ethanol, in an amount of at least 20 wt. % relative to the total weight of extractant. It is likewise preferable if the extractant contains water in an amount of at least 15 wt. % relative to the total weight of extractant. It is particularly preferable if the extractant simultaneously contains at least 20 wt. % of an alcohol (preferably ethanol) and at least 15 wt. % of water relative to the total weight of extractant.
Particularly preferred blackberry leaf extracts are obtained with an extractant consisting of ethanol and water in a weight ratio of 2:8 (2 parts by weight of ethanol mixed with 8 parts by weight of water) to 8:2, preferably in a weight ratio of 3:7 to 7:3, particularly preferably in a weight ratio of 3:7 to 1:1.
Detailed procedures for preparing a suitable blackberry leaf extract are disclosed in published US Patent Application No. 2008/0095719, which is herein incorporated in its entirety.
Accordingly, in one preferred embodiment, the blackberry extract is a blackberry leaf extract, i.e., the extract is produced from the leaves of the blackberry plant. In a particularly preferred embodiment, the blackberry extract is produced from the leaves of Rubus fruticosus. In a further particularly preferred embodiment, the blackberry extract is produced by extracting the leaves of Rubus fruticosus with a mixture of water and a lower alcohol such as ethanol.
One particularly suitable blackberry extract produced by extracting the leaves of Rubus fruticosus with a mixture of water and ethanol is the commercially available material “SymMatrix” from Symrise, Inc. of Teterboro, N.J., which is compounded to about 5 to 10% by weight in a maltodextrin matrix..."

I applaud your pro active approach JohnD60.
Good luck with your experiments and keep us posted!

#30 Logic

  • Guest
  • 2,661 posts
  • 587
  • Location:Kimberley, South Africa
  • NO

Posted 12 February 2013 - 09:49 AM

It seems that:
"...elastin is a large fibrous protein formed by the crosslinking of elastin precursor protein molecules (e.g., tropoelastin) into spiral filaments. The spiral filaments consist of peptidic chains that are capable of extending and then resuming their original shape..."

So to produce elastin you need tropoelastin promoters and tropoelastin crosslinkers.

Tropoelastin promoters:
blackberry leaf extract, cotinus extract, feverfew extract, copper and/or zinc.
In an amount comprising from about 0.5% to about 5% by weight of the composition.

Tropoelastin cross-linkers:
dill extract, currant extract, cardamom extract, black radish extract, box holly extract, Asafoetida extract, ethyl hexenoate, methyl butyrate, ethyl decadienoate.
In an amount comprising about 0.5% to about 5% by weight of the composition.


While building elastin; you want to avoid its breakdown in the 1st place:

"...it is known that matrix metalloproteinases (MMPs), a group of enzymes that are able to break down macromolecules in the extracellular matrix, play an important role in elastin degradation...a hydroalcoholic blackberry leaf extract, exhibits the MMP-1, MMP-2, and MMP-9 inhibitory activity. SOFW Journal (2006) 132(4), 42-46..."

Also:

"...certain natural or synthetic compounds are known for the beneficial effect of promoting the production of elastin precursor. For example, retinoids up-regulate elastin production in fibroblasts. Liu B, Harvey CS, McGowan SE. Am. J. Physiol. (1993 Nov) 265(5 Pt 1):L430-437..."

http://www.google.co.za/patents/EP2246042A2?cl=en&dq=Lys'lastine+make+dill+extract&hl=en&sa=X&ei=-38ZUamjBYWJhQexjYC4Bg&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAA




7 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 7 guests, 0 anonymous users