41 replies to this topic

[ironfistx]

The Foreman grill gets used at least once or twice a day and Teflon-coated frying pans for my other meals.

I'm good about tossing them if the Teflon chips.

I know Teflon is "safe" and doesn't react with anything below a certain temperature, but would heating/cooling it every day for months over the normal course of cooking change its properties?

I never turn the burner above medium when using Teflon. I know if you cause it to smoke it can make you sick (and kill birds).

[niner]

I've been using a nano-ceramic coated pan for a bit over a year. It's pretty nice, and I'm not aware of any health issues with it. I know that Teflon is a problem if it gets hot enough. I don't know what happens as it ages, but it inevitably starts looking pretty ratty. I'm trying to get away from it. The nano-ceramic seems to be tougher than Teflon. I've managed to acquire a few small scratches that while visible, don't seem to affect performance.

[daouda]

In case someone accumulated PTFE in his body, apparently cholestyramine (questran) is helpful to promote its detoxification

http://193.146.160.2...1078_Genuis.pdf
Genuis SJ, et al., Human detoxification of perfluorinated compounds, Public Health (2010), doi:10.1016/j.puhe.2010.03.002

There has been no proven method thus far to accelerate the clearance of potentially toxic
perfluorinated compounds (PFCs) in humans. PFCs are a family of commonly used synthetic
compounds with many applications, including repelling oil and stains on furniture, clothing,
carpets and food packaging, aswell as in themanufacturing of polytetrafluoroethylene – a nonstick surfacing often used in cookware (e.g. Tefl;on®). Some PFCs remain persistent within the
environment due to their inherent chemical stability, and are very slowly eliminated from the
human body due, in part, to enterohepatic recirculation. Exposure to PFCs is widespread and
some subpopulations, living in proximity to or working in fl;uorochemical manufacturing
plants, are highly contaminated. PFC bioaccumulation has become an increasing public health
concern as emerging evidence suggests reproductive toxicity, neurotoxicity and hepatotoxicity, and some PFCs are considered to be likely human carcinogens. A case history is presented
where an individual with high concentrations of PFCs in serum provided: (1) sweat samples
after use of a sauna; and (2) stool samples before and after oral administration of each of two
bile acid sequestrants – cholestyramine (CSM) and saponin compounds (SPCs). Stool samples
before and after use of a cation-exchange zeolite compoundwere also examined. PFCs found in
serum were not detected in substantial quantities in sweat or in stool prior to treatment.
Minimal amounts of perfluorooctanoic acid, but no other PFCs, were detected in stool after SPC
use; minimal amounts of perfluorooctanesulfonate, but no other PFCs, were detected in stool
after zeolite use. All PFC congeners found in serum were detected in stool after CSM use. Serum
levels of all PFCs subsequently declined after regular use of CSM. Further study is required but
this report suggests that CSM therapy may facilitate gastrointestinal elimination of some PFCs
from the human body.

Edited by daouda, 15 January 2013 - 05:22 AM.

[Luminosity]

When it comes time to replace the grill, get a cast iron grill pan you can use on the stove. The cooking surface should not be coated with porcelain. The ones with the raised lines closer together are best. Some are lighter and than others too, and those are easier to deal with. I use cast iron because it is healthy and gives a superior flavor. It is pretty non-stick. They have those ceramic non-stick pans now, and those sound good as well.

This just sounds like a good precaution.

[ironfistx]

Cast iron pans do make the food taste good. I just got one. But they take a bit of work to clean, season, and dry after you're done with them.

The Foreman grill just wipes down with a wet paper towel in like 30 seconds (clean it while it's still hot. If you let it cool, the food will dry on it and you'll have to scrape it off and it's a huge pain).

[ironfistx]

Here's a study saying a component of Teflon has been linked to arthritis:

http://www.reuters.c...E76C3WR20110713

That report was about drinking water that was contaminated. I don't know if it applies to cooking surfaces.

[ironfistx]

Where can one get a PFOA blood test?

[daouda]

Meh, "toxins schmoxins" they say... (sarcasm)

[Mind]

I am going to try out the new nano-ceramics when my old teflon pans wear out. I use cast iron sometimes as well.

I am not too freaked-out about teflon. My general rule of thumb is that if a product has been used for decades and there are no obvious widespread negative health outcomes (mostly just speculation about long term effects), then I am not going to freak-out about it. If problems with teflon were VERY SERIOUS, we would have found out by now, and the average lifespan in advanced nations would probably be declining instead of increasing.

Edited by Mind, 16 January 2013 - 10:01 PM.

[ironfistx]

Most people do not use Teflon as often as I do. At least 3x a day for years. I work from home and eat a lot of meals on the Foreman grill or on Teflon frying pans.

[daouda]

If problems with teflon we VERY SERIOUS, we would have found out by now,

Me thinks you have too much faith in science. When big money is at stake it takes much longer for the truth to emerge, and that s not paranoid reasoning but a fact. And if you dont think a body riddled with arthritis is a serious condition, think twice. (and "decades" really isnt enough... it took 33 years for the truth about the drug mediator to emerge, Aluminum adjuvants in vaccines have been used for more than 70 years and it's only now than the evidence of their responsability in encephalomyelitis cases is getting clearer... I dont expect for the truth about the actual frequency of fluoroquinolones antibiotics adverse events - especially delayed reactions - to emerge before at least 20 more years)

and the average lifespan in advanced nations would probably be declining instead of increasing.

Yeah but the non life-threatening osteo and rhumatoid athritis are more and more common and happen at younger and younger ages it seems... also on the rise are many weird idiopathic syndromes like fibromyalgia, CFS/encephalomyelitis etc...
That being said, I still use my teflon coated pans and am not too freaked out about it but in all actuality it would probably be more reasonable to throw them away and use the safer alternative but Im broke. I dont see whats reasonable about waiting to have definitive data proving the harmfulness of something before ditching it for safer alternatives (when you already have enough evidence to start being suspicious) .

On a side note, I see many of the smartest ppl here, many of whom seem like brilliant scientists, display an irrational level of faith in "science" and "studies". In theory the scientific method is the absolute best way to discern the truth from myths and speculations, but the unavoidable human factor makes this a polite fiction. I encourage ALL scientists on this board to read this book which has been an eye-opener for me (and for many scientists). Its a book by scientist for scientists btw, not a tin foil hat promoting propaganda.
http://en.wikipedia....alls_of_Science

Edited by daouda, 16 January 2013 - 08:46 PM.

[ironfistx]

I've been using a nano-ceramic coated pan for a bit over a year. It's pretty nice, and I'm not aware of any health issues with it. I know that Teflon is a problem if it gets hot enough. I don't know what happens as it ages, but it inevitably starts looking pretty ratty. I'm trying to get away from it. The nano-ceramic seems to be tougher than Teflon. I've managed to acquire a few small scratches that while visible, don't seem to affect performance.

How are they working for you in the long term?

Amazon reviews say the non-stick coating doesn't last (with the implication that it's coming off in your food).

http://www.amazon.co...h/dp/B00448H23W

[Mind]

If problems with teflon we VERY SERIOUS, we would have found out by now,

Me thinks you have too much faith in science. When big money is at stake it takes much longer for the truth to emerge, and that s not paranoid reasoning but a fact. And if you dont think a body riddled with arthritis is a serious condition, think twice. (and "decades" really isnt enough... it took 33 years for the truth about the drug mediator to emerge, Aluminum adjuvants in vaccines have been used for more than 70 years and it's only now than the evidence of their responsability in encephalomyelitis cases is getting clearer... I dont expect for the truth about the actual frequency of fluoroquinolones antibiotics adverse events - especially delayed reactions - to emerge before at least 20 more years)

and the average lifespan in advanced nations would probably be declining instead of increasing.

Yeah but the non life-threatening osteo and rhumatoid athritis are more and more common and happen at younger and younger ages it seems... also on the rise are many weird idiopathic syndromes like fibromyalgia, CFS/encephalomyelitis etc...
That being said, I still use my teflon coated pans and am not too freaked out about it but in all actuality it would probably be more reasonable to throw them away and use the safer alternative but Im broke. I dont see whats reasonable about waiting to have definitive data proving the harmfulness of something before ditching it for safer alternatives (when you already have enough evidence to start being suspicious) .

On a side note, I see many of the smartest ppl here, many of whom seem like brilliant scientists, display an irrational level of faith in "science" and "studies". In theory the scientific method is the absolute best way to discern the truth from myths and speculations, but the unavoidable human factor makes this a polite fiction. I encourage ALL scientists on this board to read this book which has been an eye-opener for me (and for many scientists). Its a book by scientist for scientists btw, not a tin foil hat promoting propaganda.
http://en.wikipedia....alls_of_Science

I hear what you are saying. I don't deny that there could be potential problems. I am just saying it is not deadly - in a short term poison sort-of way - which some web commentary sometimes portrays teflon.

[Luminosity]

A cast iron griddle is nice. It's like a flat disk with a handle. I make my breakfast on it every morning. It is lighter to lift.

You just don't know with teflon. It may be fine unless you inadvertently burn a pan or let it get too scratched up or if you have a pet bird. It may not be so fine for the workers in the factory or those downstream from the factory sometimes, from media reports. My guess it it's fairly inert when used properly. Obviously there are emanations that harm birds but apparently not us.

Cast iron pans add a tangy taste to food that is delicious. They also add a yang energy that is warming and grounding.

[ironfistx]

How much iron does cast iron add ot the food? Is it a concern for men? I know they don't put iron in men's multivitamins for a reason.

[trance]

Amount of iron, nickel, and chromium leached from various cooking utensils in which 5% acetic acid (vinegar) was boiled for 5 minutes:

Click to enlarge
 Image2.jpg   81.87KB   32 downloads

Source: http://link.springer...0212277?LI=true

Edited by trance, 17 January 2013 - 06:46 AM.

[niner]

Cast iron pans add a tangy taste to food that is delicious. They also add a yang energy that is warming and grounding.

AGEs and ALEs from a seasoned iron pan, along with some iron ions, or maybe a lot depending on pH of the food.

[ironfistx]

AGEs and ALEs from a seasoned iron pan, along with some iron ions, or maybe a lot depending on pH of the food.

What are those?

[Luminosity]

Most food doesn't have vinegar in it. I don't think there is enough iron in regular food to mess with you. The yang energy would be good for you. I would not cook notably acidic food in a cast iron pot. It might leach off the seasoning.

Thrift shops are good places to pick up iron pans, where I live. I don't think teflon is going to hurt, but you might pick up some cast iron pans especially if they are affordable. I wipe off any grease and quickly wash them under hot or warm running water and detergent, rinse them and dry them on the stove on medium. I hold them up under the water. Never leave them immersed. Do not do this at other people's houses because many people do not wash their iron pots.

When I don't have paper plates, I end up skipping meals and eating breakfast at 3:00 in the afternoon, so convenience counts. A meal made on a teflon grill is better than a meal that doesn't happen. I just don't think cast iron is as hard to deal with as people think, and it may agree with you.

Edited by Luminosity, 19 January 2013 - 05:01 AM.

[trance]

It doesn't matter if you cook with vinegar or not (it was just their baseline testing choice), but any acidic foods will leach the proportional amount of metals -- and especially from raw cast iron products.

The additional iron may be beneficial to pre-menopausal women, but older women and men ... not so much.

[ironfistx]

So should we bake everything in the oven?

[niner]

AGEs and ALEs from a seasoned iron pan, along with some iron ions, or maybe a lot depending on pH of the food.

What are those?

Advanced Glycation Endproducts and Advanced Lipoxidation Endproducts. These are toxins that are formed when food is heated, and it doesn't have to be all that hot. Normal kitchen cooking temps are sufficient. I take steps to avoid consuming them, although I'm not a raw foodist. The raw food community has a mythology that says raw food is healthier because it has "live enzymes". It's healthier (if prepared right, and if steps are taken to make sure that you get all the nutrients you need, some of which are not as bioavailable from raw food) but enzymes have nothing to do with it. It's healthier because there are almost no AGEs or ALEs.

When I don't have paper plates, I end up skipping meals and eating breakfast at 3:00 in the afternoon, so convenience counts. A meal made on a teflon grill is better than a meal that doesn't happen. I just don't think cast iron is as hard to deal with as people think, and it may agree with you.

You won't eat if you don't have a paper plate? m'kay... Please tell me you are composting them and not throwing them away. Recyclers don't like paper with food contamination.

So should we bake everything in the oven?

No. Stainless steel is safe, and I'm pretty sure that the new nanoceramic pans are safe. I'm pretty sure that the old porcelain enamel is ok as well, although it won't have the nonstick properties of the nanoceramic surfaces. Microwaves are a question mark, although I have to admit that I use them constantly. The temperature that you cook at is probably more important to your overall health than the kind of pan you use. The lower the better.

[ironfistx]

Advanced Glycation Endproducts and Advanced Lipoxidation Endproducts. These are toxins that are formed when food is heated, and it doesn't have to be all that hot. Normal kitchen cooking temps are sufficient. I take steps to avoid consuming them, although I'm not a raw foodist. The raw food community has a mythology that says raw food is healthier because it has "live enzymes". It's healthier (if prepared right, and if steps are taken to make sure that you get all the nutrients you need, some of which are not as bioavailable from raw food) but enzymes have nothing to do with it. It's healthier because there are almost no AGEs or ALEs.

Thanks. Is there a way to get rid of AGE or ALEs that you have eaten?

No. Stainless steel is safe, and I'm pretty sure that the new nanoceramic pans are safe. I'm pretty sure that the old porcelain enamel is ok as well, although it won't have the nonstick properties of the nanoceramic surfaces. Microwaves are a question mark, although I have to admit that I use them constantly. The temperature that you cook at is probably more important to your overall health than the kind of pan you use. The lower the better.

I used to cook everything in the microwave. I lived on frozen dinners for years. In the last 6 months or so I have cut them out entirely. I do reheat leftovers in the microwave on a daily basis, though.

I also used to eat a lot of Nissin ramen (the one in the styrofoam cup). I cooked it in the microwave. I didn't realize for years that it said "do not microwave cup." I haven't had that in almost 3 years now, but still. I'm a little worried.

[Luminosity]

Sounds like the George Foreman grill is a good thing for you. Because of your elbow, maybe lifting cast iron pots is not a good idea. The other elbow is probably alright now but depending on what caused your problem, you might not want to lift too much stuff?

However, I it would have to matter if the test was done with vinegar or not. One seldom cooks acidic liquid foods in cast iron. I would not worry about getting a significant amount of iron. The seasoning offers an additional layer of protection which is not leached off unless you cook acidic things, usually liquids. I cook liquids in enamel or poreclain on steel. Cast iron pots have been used for millennia. I feel that they enhance health. They also make you a better cook.

Sounds like you really upgraded your cooking with the Foreman Grill. You are doing the right things. You came here. You are talking to me ; - ) Don't worry too much. Eat a steamed green vegetable every day. Listen to your body.

Edited by Luminosity, 21 January 2013 - 02:24 AM.

[trance]

However, I it would have to matter if the test was done with vinegar or not. One seldom cooks acidic liquid foods in cast iron. I would not worry about getting a significant amount of iron. The seasoning offers an additional layer of protection which is not leached off unless you cook acidic things, usually liquids. I cook liquids in enamel or poreclain on steel. Cast iron pots have been used for millennia. I feel that they enhance health. They also make you a better cook.

I'm not sure why you are diverting attention to the vinegar each time, and not the iron contamination. The vinegar was just a baseline test substance for each pan type to determine leaching.

And I'm sure most people cooking, cast iron or otherwise, don't realize whether their food is acidic, alkaline, or neutral -- or the chemical changes taking place as it is cooked. In fact, each ingredient in the dish being prepared that is touching the cast iron would have it's own pH association & reaction with the cast iron it contacts, as it leaches into the dish being prepared.

Of course cast iron has been used for millennia, since it was relatively easy and cheap to produce, but I don't think they did any safety studies on it for cooking purposes at the time. Depending on the historical time, and region, the iron leached into their food could have been beneficial -- or a detriment.

Cast iron utensils do enhance your health, but only if you're iron deficient.

I'm not sure how you can emphatically state that they would make you a better cook though.

Several studies confirming the iron contamination of food cooked in iron pots have been reported more recently. Liu et al. investigated the levels of iron in foods cooked in Chinese iron pots and reported two- to five-fold increases in iron content over foods cooked in aluminium, stainless steel and clay pots.

Evidence of iron contamination of food cooked in an iron skillet has been provided for foods typically consumed in the USA, for Chinese foods cooked in a steel wok, and for Indian foods prepared in iron pots. Acidity, moisture content and cooking time increased this iron contamination in each of these studies.

A study comparing Ethiopian foods cooked in iron, aluminium and clay pots, found that there was more crude iron in all foods cooked in iron pots: around twice as much iron in meat and vegetables, and 1.5 times as much iron in legumes than in food cooked in the other two types of pots.

Source: http://direct.bl.uk/...7528900&ETOC=RN

And "seasoning" your cast iron is good for the first couple of uses only:

That iron dissolves from iron utensils better when foods are acidic as in this study is well known.

The effect of continued use of the same iron utensils for cooking 50 times on iron content of two foods is studied. Although iron values for the first two times the utensil was used were lower than those for the other times, iron content of the food was similar through the 50 times. The initial seasoning of the iron utensils apparently affected the amount of iron taken up by the food during cooking the first two times.

Our study indicated iron cookware used on a continuing basis increased iron content of food and thus the intake of iron at least as much as new iron cookware.

Source: http://onlinelibrary...5331.x/abstract

And here's a study comparing hamburger patties and their own lab-made applesauce (from fresh apples) on glass and cast iron pans (oh, note that no vinegar was used here either):

When measuring dietary iron, the iron obtained from cooking in iron utensils should be considered. Cooking food in iron utensils (Brittin and Nossarnan 1986a; Borigato and Martinez 1992; Kollipara and Brittin 1996), steel woks (Zhou and Brittin 1994), or stainless steel utensils (Park and Brittin 1997) increases its iron content, Iron added to food by cooking in iron utensils is bioavailable (Mistry et al. 1988). Used iron cookware increases iron in food as much as new iron cookware does (Cheng and Brittin 1991).

Changes in sensory characteristics of food may occur when food is cooked in iron utensils due to increased iron content. We have found no published research on the effect of cooking food in iron utensils on sensory quality or acceptability of food. Our preliminary investigation indicated significant differences in taste, flavor, and color of applesauce cooked in iron versus glass utensils. The purpose of this study was to determine whether cooking food in iron utensils affects its iron content, sensory quality, and consumer acceptance.

Hamburger patties cooked in iron and in glass did not differ in moisture content. Iron content was higher (P < 0.05) in patties cooked in iron than cooked in glass. Because moisture content did not differ between patties cooked in the two different utensils, the difference in iron content of food cooked in iron and that cooked in glass was not due to difference in moisture. Although hamburger cooked in glass contained significantly more iron than raw hamburger, this difference is due to their different moisture content; calculation of iron content on a dry weight basis showed 4.37 and 4.45 mg iron per 100 g dry food, respectively, a 1.8 - .9% difference. Correlation analysis showed no significant (P > 0.05) association between iron content and beef-flavor or off-flavor of hamburger patties.

Raw applesauce had the lowest pH; applesauce cooked in iron had the highest pH. The higher pH of cooked applesauce than raw applesauce may be due to loss of volatile acids during cooking. Iron content of applesauce cooked in iron utensil was the highest (P<0.05) among three treatments, 133 times that of the other two treatments, which did not differ. The pH, moisture, and iron values of hamburger and applesauce are similar to values reported previously (Brittin and Nossaman 1986a; Cheng and Brittin 1991).

Source: http://onlinelibrary...0207.x/abstract

.

[Luminosity]

I stand by what I said.

People know that vinegar, lemon juice, and tomato sauce are acidic. That's basically what it comes down to. They can cook those in a non-iron pan. It would preserve the seasoning and eliminate some iron in case they are worried about getting too much. Cooking liquids in a non-iron pan is also a good idea. If nothing else it preserves the seasoning. The rest of the time it's perfectly fine to use an iron pan unless you have a special concern about iron exposures.

Millions of people in China have eaten every meal of their lives from iron woks for hundreds of years. If it was causing a disease, we'd know about it by now.

Iron is not that cheap or easy to deal with but it is healthy, energy efficient and cooks delicious food. That's why is has been used as much as it has. I eat breakfast every day off on an iron griddle but I still have a lot of cravings for iron-rich foods. This tells me that there isn't that much iron coming off of it. I have used the same iron pans for decades and they don't look any thinner to me. In that time a lot of teflon pans and enamel pots have come and gone. Aluminum is worse for you by far. You have to use pans made of something. Usually, some of it will come off unless you use uncoated glass which might not even be available? Heavy porcelain on iron such as a LeCreuset brand pans might be more stable but did you ever drop one of those things on your foot, or the floor? Or you can microwave in plastic or bake in foil and get some of that in your food. All in all cast iron is one of your best bets. Some people have iron pans from their grandparents. It's just not that much iron coming off the pans and it's not a problem.

Edited by Luminosity, 26 January 2013 - 02:45 AM.

[niner]

I stand by what I said.

People know that vinegar, lemon juice, and tomato sauce are acidic. That's basically what it comes down to. They can cook those in a non-iron pan. It would preserve the seasoning and eliminate some iron in case they are worried about getting too much. Cooking liquids in a non-iron pan is also a good idea. If nothing else it preserves the seasoning. The rest of the time it's perfectly fine to use an iron pan unless you have a special concern about iron exposures.

Millions of people in China have eaten every meal of their lives from iron woks for hundreds of years. If it was causing a disease, we'd know about it by now.

Iron is not that cheap or easy to deal with but it is healthy, energy efficient and cooks delicious food. That's why is has been used as much as it has. I eat breakfast every day off on an iron griddle but I still have a lot of cravings for iron-rich foods. This tells me that there isn't that much iron coming off of it. I have used he same iron pans for decades and they don't look any thinner to me. Some people have iron pans from their grandparents. It's just not that much iron coming off the pans and it's not a problem.

It's not just acids; moisture is a problem too. You just need to face the facts. If you want to die on schedule, go ahead. The majority of people at this site are interested in better than normal health. Iron doesn't cause an obvious disease, but it may still shorten your life, contributing to diseases that most people wouldn't consider to be iron-related. If your pan was getting thinner, you'd be dead already. Do you have any idea how many milligrams of iron it would take to make a pan look obviously thinner?. How can people flip out about a microgram of mercury yet happily chow down on gobs of iron every day? They're both heavy metals. (Yes, I'm aware of the differential toxicity, but people are going beyond that by orders of magnitude.)

[Luminosity]

You are implying that iron pans are shortening people's lives? Speaking of facts, do you have any to back that up?

I believe that iron pans enhance your health. You have to use something on which to cook your food Some of that is likely to end up in your food. So do you want it to be iron, aluminum, or what? Most glass stovetop cookware seems to be coated with something. Cast iron allows people to use the less oil or grease than they would otherwise due to the non-stick capacities.

What do you cook your food on?

[niner]

You are implying that iron pans are shortening people's lives? Speaking of facts, do you have any to back that up?

I believe that iron pans enhance your health. You have to use something on which to cook your food Some of that is likely to end up in your food. So do you want it to be iron, aluminum, or what? Most glass stovetop cookware seems to be coated with something. Cast iron allows people to use the less oil or grease than they would otherwise due to the non-stick capacities.

What do you cook your food on?

Measurements of iron leaching into food have been posted, and the danger of iron is well documented. You have to use something to cook food, but I wouldn't tell people that iron was safe any sooner than I'd tell them that damaged or burned teflon was safe. The safe options appear to be stainless steel, enameled iron, and as a non-stick option, nanoceramic. I think teflon is probably ok as long as it's in good shape and you don't get it too hot. I use stainless, nanoceramic, and occasionally teflon. More and more I lean toward nanoceramic.

[ironfistx]

I've heard nanoceramic may not be safe because the ceramic particles are so tiny they can cross the blood brain barrier, get into your cells, etc., and there are no long term studies on that technology.

I'm curious to learn more about it.