30 replies to this topic

[Dinvestor]

I've read the various info on this drug out of Russia and it's mechanism of action, etc. I know there's been a few references to it in other posts, but I'm wondering if anyone has tried it and what your experiences have been?


Thx,

[Reformed-Redan]

I just got a pack from a friendly Longecity member in exchange for another supplement he wanted. A rather symbiotic relationship, eh? Well, anyway I just took 3mg sublingually and definitely notice an immediate calming effect. It's rather hard to describe; but, seems to work well. So far so good.

Wow, this stuff is good for anxiety.

I think I get why this is primarily for alcoholics, now. It feels like I'm sedated alcohol-wise without the woozy cognitive disturbance if it.

[nupi]

Booze without the side effects? Too good to be true...

[Dinvestor]

Good for you yada

yeah, I bought some as well after I had posted above...but, I didn't notice much of an effect and the research indicated it took, like, 10 of those pills a day to reach efficacy...If that's the case, too expensive.

How are you doing with Apo? Still positive effect?

[Reformed-Redan]

Good for you yada

yeah, I bought some as well after I had posted above...but, I didn't notice much of an effect and the research indicated it took, like, 10 of those pills a day to reach efficacy...If that's the case, too expensive.

How are you doing with Apo? Still positive effect?

Did you take it sublingually?

[Dinvestor]

Yes, but I only tried it a couple times. Still have the box. Might have to try again. just read the other post about it. Seems like a few people are getting good results with it.

I was always interested in it from the research I did, but just not sure how real it was.

How do you compare it to Apo?

[formergenius]

Ahh I wasn't aware there was another topic open regarding Tenoten.
Do you only notice sedative effects? It is supposed to promote clarity of thought.. sedation doesn't really fit in that picture IME.
I've ordered the stuff a while back.. still waiting to receive it. There's some people on ebay I contacted. They don't list Tenoten, but when inquired, they were willing to sell.
However, on the lame presumption I would receive my Tenoten soon, I did not order. Had I done this, I would've had it now.
If anyone needs the eBay contact, send me a message, as I'll be happy to provide on the simple condition you mention my referral.

There have been some Russian testimonials, I believe I linked to it in the topic mentioned above.

[Dinvestor]

Thanks Formergenius:

Got your PM. It took 6 weeks for me to get it as well. :(

I've taken it like 5 times and I can't tell too much. I've struggled with anxiety from late stage Lyme Disease and so not too much has worked. Still looking at the various Russian anxiolytics to try to find something that will help. Most of the domestic US stuff is too toxic for my tastes. Klonopin has helped much but I always fear getting hooked...

[dislocation]

whats the chemical name of this ? i cant find any info on wikipedia and most of the stuff is russian. i did translation but those wacky russians do not even tell what the actual chemical name is. they just use the name tenoten. :s

[Rior]

Not sure what the chemical name is...all I know is that it's a small molecule antibody to the S100B protein.

[dislocation]

so its some kind of peptide ? maybe thats why its used sublingual because oral absorption will not happen. either way, if you guys take this you should at least know what the exact chemical is. :s

[formergenius]

Hmm only 5 times.. I think you oughta give this one a fair trial. Twice a day for a month would be fair. But you can go as high as 4 times a day I believe..
Anyways I got mine in the mail, I'll see what happens.

NP Dinvestor

Edited by formergenius, 16 May 2013 - 12:28 PM.

[dislocation]

twice a day for a month to feel a noticeble effect ? you can get immediate effect from eating food or drinking water. if a drug takes that long to work, dump it

[Rior]

twice a day for a month to feel a noticeble effect ? you can get immediate effect from eating food or drinking water. if a drug takes that long to work, dump it

That's an extraordinarily dumb way to approach things. Bacopa monnieri takes up to 12 weeks to gain any memory benefits, however after 12 weeks the working memory/short term memory benefits are apparently profound. Patience rewards those who have it.

Edit:

Update on my experience with Tenoten: I stopped taking it about a week or two ago after I began having visual disturbances. This could have been due to the Tenoten or the Uridine I had just begun taking (coincided with that, have stopped taking that as well) but the effects were as such: difficulty reading, extreme difficulty focusing my eyes, and especially difficulty in changing the focus of my eyes.

I just took Tenoten again today and anxiolytic effects seem to be back, with some odd visual experiences. It feels slightly similar to what I was feeling earlier, but perhaps I might also attribute it to being a little more "in the moment" in that I'm NOTICING whether or not I'm really focusing my eyes on something or just passively looking at it like I usually do. Will update as I take more. I do feel nice right now though, the anxiolysis is always enjoyable.

Edited by Rior, 16 May 2013 - 06:37 PM.

[dislocation]

patience ? more like time, money and discipline waste. if something is so beneficial and praised for its positive effect on your body, it must be as great as take one and feel it type of effect. like a cup of coffee. does it take 12 weeks to feel the effect ? more like 12 minutes lol

Edited by dislocation, 16 May 2013 - 06:37 PM.

[Rior]

patience ? more like time, money and discipline waste. if something is so beneficial and praised for its positive effect on your body, it must be as great as take one and feel it type of effect. like a cup of coffee. does it take 12 weeks to feel the effect ? lol

I don't even know how to respond to this.

All I can say is that it sounds like you're looking to get high on initial effects, rather than induce long-term benefits. Little thing worth realizing: Most drugs that induce an immediate effect that's positive, usually end up having a bad long-term effect. That said, many things that have a not-so-wonderful initial effect, or perhaps no initial effect at all, induce long-term changes that--if you have discipline enough to take it every day--is worth millions more to have long-term permanent changes than an initial high that goes away. It's how pharmacology usually tends to work.

A good example is Memantine. It acts as an antagonist at the NMDA receptor, which induces initial BAD effects. However, to overcompensate for the antagonism at the NMDA receptor, it causes your body to upregulate the production of said receptors--which induces a great long-term effect and results, for many people, in increased memory and increased concentration and focus.

[formergenius]

Rior thanks for the update. I agree, dislocation has some odd viewpoints. If you want immediate relief, go for benzo's I suppose. Running a mile won't make you lose a pound either.

I took some Tenoten today, just couldn't wait. Damn! I think it was the Tenoten.. I took two, and I just felt soooo tired. Strange. Anxiolytic yes, but sedative as well alas.
Dinner at a crowded restaurant seemed less distressing, but I had to put all my will into not lying down on the couch I was seated in.
Just took two more, with one hour apart. Still feeling tired, which is good I suppose because I need the sleep. I'll have to evaluate full effects on sleep in the morning.
I sucked at chess today though, but then again I haven't really been as good as I used to be for a long time.

There's not much clarity as of yet. Hoping this will gain over time?
Anyways not nearly long enough of a trial to support any concrete claims on effects. Could be placebo.
Almost forgot: http://health.mail.r...noten/#comments Some reviews, be sure to translate.

1 tablet - 3 mg = 3 * 10 ^ (-6) gram
The concentration of the active substance 10 ^ (-15) nanograms per gram = 10 ^ (-24)
Of active substance per tablet 3 * 10 ^ (-6) * 10 * 10 ^ (-25) = 3 * 10 ^ (-31) grams
From Wikipedia, we learn that the average weight of 150 KDa antibodies = 150 * 1.66 * 10 ^ (-22) = 2.49 * 10 ^ (- 24) grams
Learn how many tablets need to have appeared in one molecule of the active substance to divide the mass of the molecule by weight of active substance per tablet:
(2.49 * 10 ^ (-24)) / (3 * 10 ^ (-31)) = 0.83 * 10 ^ (7) = 8300000
So, out of 8.3 million tablets of "medicine" one contains one molecule of the active ingredient, and 8299000 999 do not contain anything.

Such cases ...

*rubs chin*

Edited by formergenius, 16 May 2013 - 08:40 PM.

[dislocation]

patience ? more like time, money and discipline waste. if something is so beneficial and praised for its positive effect on your body, it must be as great as take one and feel it type of effect. like a cup of coffee. does it take 12 weeks to feel the effect ? lol

I don't even know how to respond to this.

All I can say is that it sounds like you're looking to get high on initial effects, rather than induce long-term benefits. Little thing worth realizing: Most drugs that induce an immediate effect that's positive, usually end up having a bad long-term effect. That said, many things that have a not-so-wonderful initial effect, or perhaps no initial effect at all, induce long-term changes that--if you have discipline enough to take it every day--is worth millions more to have long-term permanent changes than an initial high that goes away. It's how pharmacology usually tends to work.

A good example is Memantine. It acts as an antagonist at the NMDA receptor, which induces initial BAD effects. However, to overcompensate for the antagonism at the NMDA receptor, it causes your body to upregulate the production of said receptors--which induces a great long-term effect and results, for many people, in increased memory and increased concentration and focus.

you are refering to this drug ? http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21860092

not sure i will be trying it reading this.

and also relating your substance to take long term for benefit, its impossible to be sure if anything long term actually works considering placebo is huge effect when it comes to time. time changes a person naturally, time heals or makes things worst. hard to judge change in a person based on a single ingredient they have been taking long term with subtle effects.

[Rior]

patience ? more like time, money and discipline waste. if something is so beneficial and praised for its positive effect on your body, it must be as great as take one and feel it type of effect. like a cup of coffee. does it take 12 weeks to feel the effect ? lol

I don't even know how to respond to this.

All I can say is that it sounds like you're looking to get high on initial effects, rather than induce long-term benefits. Little thing worth realizing: Most drugs that induce an immediate effect that's positive, usually end up having a bad long-term effect. That said, many things that have a not-so-wonderful initial effect, or perhaps no initial effect at all, induce long-term changes that--if you have discipline enough to take it every day--is worth millions more to have long-term permanent changes than an initial high that goes away. It's how pharmacology usually tends to work.

A good example is Memantine. It acts as an antagonist at the NMDA receptor, which induces initial BAD effects. However, to overcompensate for the antagonism at the NMDA receptor, it causes your body to upregulate the production of said receptors--which induces a great long-term effect and results, for many people, in increased memory and increased concentration and focus.

you are refering to this drug ? http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21860092

not sure i will be trying it reading this.

and also relating your substance to take long term for benefit, its impossible to be sure if anything long term actually works considering placebo is huge effect when it comes to time. time changes a person naturally, time heals or makes things worst. hard to judge change in a person based on a single ingredient they have been taking long term with subtle effects.

Yes that's the one I'm referring to. And again, you're either not understanding what I'm saying, or perhaps you don't understand pharmacology quite well. The study you linked to referenced single-dose treatment, which I just said in my post that you quoted, has adverse effects. It is in the long-term use that brings out long-term, more permanent benefits. Such as in this study:

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/20363261

Memantine treatment improved spatial and recognition memory performance in the Ts65Dn mice, though not to the level of normosomic littermate controls. Despite these memory improvements, histological analysis found no morphological signs of neuroprotection of basal forebrain cholinergic or locus coeruleus neurons in memantine-treated Ts65Dn mice. However, memantine treatment of Ts65Dn mice gave rise to elevated brain-derived neurotrophic factor expression in the hippocampus and frontal cortex, suggesting a mechanism of behavioral modification.

Quoting you here:

its impossible to be sure if anything long term actually works considering placebo is huge effect when it comes to time. time changes a person naturally, time heals or makes things worst. hard to judge change in a person based on a single ingredient they have been taking long term with subtle effects.

This statement is absolutely ludicrous. You even LINKED a study on pubmed, which one might mean you know something... but then you go and say the above quoted statement. The studies linking drugs/pharmaceuticals to long-term effects primarily use rats, after which they remove their brains and analyze the pharmacological changes induced by drugs. This can be increased expressions of BDNF or other neurotrophic factors, monoamines/proteins etc, or through morphological changes seen in increased size of the hippocampus, DLPFC or others. Or, in humans, (seeing as we can't exactly kill and cut their brains open) they use standardized tests before/after treatment to test memory, emotional affect, etc. These reports from 100s of people imply significant findings.

By saying it's impossible to judge the actions of a single molecule on an individual, you are basically claiming that all biological and pharmacological science that has occurred over all time is moot and/or nonexistent. I mean come on now....You're on longecity here....you can't exactly go around making that claim.

[dislocation]

well minewas more of a philosophical comment rather than pharmacological. and science is still really behind to claim anything and people to believe it definitive

[dislocation]

you are telling me its good idea to take some substance continuently with the sheer desperate hope its going to make things much better than worst eventually, based on some studies with anyone but me, humans or not. i dunno what was crazy about what i said but this sounds quite stupid and crazy to me. you remind me of a psychiatrist who pursues you to keep taking your meds in the hope things will get better over time but instead they keep getting worst until you end up in irrerversible defect.

anyway i wish this thread continues to be concentrated on that mysterious compound "tenoten" and we shouldnt be sidetracked. im still curious to hear further reports. so far it seems to be a typical sedative with zero speciality.

[lourdaud]

Rior thanks for the update. I agree, dislocation has some odd viewpoints. If you want immediate relief, go for benzo's I suppose. Running a mile won't make you lose a pound either.

I took some Tenoten today, just couldn't wait. Damn! I think it was the Tenoten.. I took two, and I just felt soooo tired. Strange. Anxiolytic yes, but sedative as well alas.
Dinner at a crowded restaurant seemed less distressing, but I had to put all my will into not lying down on the couch I was seated in.
Just took two more, with one hour apart. Still feeling tired, which is good I suppose because I need the sleep. I'll have to evaluate full effects on sleep in the morning.
I sucked at chess today though, but then again I haven't really been as good as I used to be for a long time.

There's not much clarity as of yet. Hoping this will gain over time?
Anyways not nearly long enough of a trial to support any concrete claims on effects. Could be placebo.

Updates, please!

[mwestbro]

I did a little searching, and Tenoten is clearly a homeopathic product. That doesn't bother me any, as I've gotten good results from a variety of homeopathic remedies, but it may bother some of you. Interestingly, the company doesn't seem to want to emphasize the homeopathic nature of their products. In the US, many companies grab homeopathic status enthusiastically in order to avoid FDA oversight, but maybe the incentives are different in Russia. Anyway, Tenoten is a combination (sometimes called a "potency chord") of three homeopathic dilutions of antibodies to S100. The three dilutions are 12C, 30C, and 200C. Since Tenoten is a homeopathic remedy, I assume it will act like a homeopathic remedy. I'm not particularly interested in defending homeopathy here, but if you plan to use Tenoten, you should know what a homeopath would expect from it. Tenoten won't operate according to traditional pharmacological principles. Homeopathy is a regulatory therapy, and the effect you get depends on the prior condition of the recipient. In particular, it won't necessarily have the same effect every time you take it. A homeopath would tell you to take it until you get a good therapeutic response, and then stop. If you continue taking it, you may get what is called a "proving", in which you manifest the symptoms the remedy is intended to treat in exaggerated form. In other words, you start out feeling better, then it stops working, then you feel much much worse. As I said, I have no particular interest in defending homeopathy here, but there is a theoretical structure behind all of this. As an aside, I think there is a lesson here. We have several people taking a drug they don't know very much about. All of them report effects of some sort. Now, the lesson you draw depends on your pre-existing assumptions. Either we can conclude that we have a bit of anecdotal evidence for homeopathy, or that it is harder than we think to evaluate drugs purchased over the Internet. Take your pick.

Mike

Edited by mwestbro, 20 May 2013 - 04:23 PM.

[Rior]

I did a little searching, and Tenoten is clearly a homeopathic product. That doesn't bother me any, as I've gotten good results from a variety of homeopathic remedies, but it may bother some of you. Interestingly, the company doesn't seem to want to emphasize the homeopathic nature of their products. In the US, many companies grab homeopathic status enthusiastically in order to avoid FDA oversight, but maybe the incentives are different in Russia. Anyway, Tenoten is a combination (sometimes called a "potency chord") of three homeopathic dilutions of antibodies to S100. The three dilutions are 12C, 30C, and 200C. Since Tenoten is a homeopathic remedy, I assume it will act like a homeopathic remedy. I'm not particularly interested in defending homeopathy here, but if you plan to use Tenoten, you should know what a homeopath would expect from it. Tenoten won't operate according to traditional pharmacological principles. Homeopathy is a regulatory therapy, and the effect you get depends on the prior condition of the recipient. In particular, it won't necessarily have the same effect every time you take it. A homeopath would tell you to take it until you get a good therapeutic response, and then stop. If you continue taking it, you may get what is called a "proving", in which you manifest the symptoms the remedy is intended to treat in exaggerated form. In other words, you start out feeling better, then it stops working, then you feel much much worse. As I said, I have no particular interest in defending homeopathy here, but there is a theoretical structure behind all of this. As an aside, I think there is a lesson here. We have several people taking a drug they don't know very much about. All of them report effects of some sort. Now, the lesson you draw depends on your pre-existing assumptions. Either we can conclude that we have a bit of anecdotal evidence for homeopathy, or that it is harder than we think to evaluate drugs purchased over the Internet. Take your pick.

Mike

I'm not one for really believing in the explanations behind homeopathy, but I've certainly felt a pharmacological effect from Tenoten--much more than I might guess homeopathy might induce. I say this due to the fact that while Tenoten has certainly helped with my anxiety, it has also caused me noticeable problems with my vision that has caused me to stop taking it (difficulty focusing my vision primarily). I don't know, as I said I'm not one for believing in homeopathy considering how it seems like there's very little basis in science, it seems odd to me that there are plenty of studies that show what seem to be a pharmacological effect of Tenoten on patients.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/23113263
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22451881
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/20396730 (preparation used on rats)
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/20027370
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/20027366

And while some of the studies are hosted by Materia Medica, a lot of the others are hosting by independent universities.

I honestly feel like there needs to be a pharmacological reasoning behind Tenoten's efficacy other than homeopathy.

[Dinvestor]

Rior:

It's interesting that you say you were having vision disturbances from Tenoten. I'm having some vision disturbances as well and not sure what it was from. I'm currently trying a trial of Afobazole to see if I can get rid of it, plus the anxiety issues I've been plagued with. Did you ever try Afo?

D

[Rior]

I have not tried afobazole, currently I'm using Bacopa. Last time I used Bacopa I was using it alongside an SSRI, and as such it didn't have the benefits I was looking for (seeing as it's serotonergic). But now that I'm using it again after being free from SSRIs, I'm seeing a far greater benefit. Heightened verbal fluency, more "in the present" mindset, less anxiety. We'll see if these effects last for any extended period of time as I only started taking it again about 4 days ago, but up until now they've been good! I'm putting Tenoten to the side for now following the visual disturbances.

[Dinvestor]

Yes, currently taking Bacopa as well. Ironically, i don't sense much cognitive effect from it. although maybe a little less anxiety, but it definitely has helped some gut issues I was having. Good luck in your quest...

[Rior]

How long have you been taking Bacopa? The real cognitive effects aren't supposed to really show up for about 12 weeks. As per the effects I'm experiencing, I think the cognitive benefits I'm having are due to a reduction in the anxious "wall" that stops thought and verbal fluidity, rather than the actual cognitive benefits from Bacopa. Looking forward to those benefits around the 3 month mark

Edit: Also, what have you experienced with Afobazole so far?

Edited by Rior, 20 May 2013 - 05:55 PM.

[Dinvestor]

Probably about 8 weeks or so on Bacopa...

4th day of Afobazole and not much yet. Maybe a slight anti-anxiety effect

[formergenius]

loardaud: Sorry, no real updates to report. I continued taking Tenoten for a few days, but a few days ago I had a night with several substances combined (phenibut, alcohol, cannabis), and afterwards I decided to put aside Tenoten for the moment as well, seeing as I wouldn't be able to discern its effects due to aforementioned substances also influencing my system. Add to that the tDCS I've been doing intermittently, and attributing any changes in cognition/mood to Tenoten would not be fair.

I expect to finally (!) receive the appropiate medicine for my condition as of next week, and thus I have ceased all brain altering activities, so as to have a clean system next week.
I hope to benefit from aforementioned medicine. Once that happens, I shall look into appropiate adjunctive methods, possibly adding Tenoten at that time.

Bacopa.. I'll look into that. I took it, but not nearly as long as needed. It was in AlphaBrain, which is quite expensive.