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My ADD Stack in Development

add adhd sct stack fog anxiety concentration motivation

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#211 chris106

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Posted 23 May 2014 - 07:08 AM

My advice would be to order generic Modafinil from medsforbitcoin (they are UK based, but shipping is done from India) and then use a parcel forwarding service like skypax.
I don't know how strict import- and customs regulations in Scandinavia are, but with this method I get my stuff to Germany, past our strict customs.

If you are stuck with Ritalin though (I know it sucks, I've been there, believe me!), my suggestion would be to add a potent ashwagandha extract (Jarrows is good) to take the edge of a bit, and add AAKG or better yet Citrulline to conquer the vascocontriction side-effects.

I haven't tried this combination with Ritalin, because back in the day I didn't know about these compounds. It works fine with Modafinil though, and nowadays I wouldn't take any stimulant without it...

 

And try to look on the bright side - at least prescribed Ritalin is nowhere near as expensive as ordering generic imported Modafinil using parcel-forwarding... :)



#212 Mind_Paralysis

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Posted 23 May 2014 - 12:09 PM

True, this generic ritalin I've got is hella' cheap! The medical subsidizing in Europe is a thing of wonder, really.

 

It wasn't too bad when I tried it yesterday, actually. But then, I only used a smaller dose, about 15 mg's, if I recall correctly. Worked decently even, actually.

 

I usually use a MUCH higher dose with Concerta, 36mg's, but then that dose is of course administered throughout the day, for about 12 or so hours. I'm going to have a look into Citrulline btw, so cheers for the suggestion.

Ashwaganda seems like it could be a good idea for the anxiety too, but that has of course been brought up before. Gonna' have to schedule ordering it when I'm on the drug again!

( currently I'm not, since I got a cold from walking in the rain with a friend that insisted, yesterday... so now I'm pretty wasted without any medical aid.)


Edited by Stinkorninjor, 23 May 2014 - 12:10 PM.


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#213 chris106

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Posted 26 May 2014 - 08:53 PM

Nice, report back if you have noticeable reduction of side effects or additional benefits.

Right now Modafinil is burning a hole in my wallet, and I COULD actually still get Ritalin prescribed for free, which is at least in theory quite the luxary... but I just had to stop taking it since back then I could never tame the nasty side effects - muscle stiffness, horrible crash, dry mouth and cold hands...
 

Anyways, I hope you get better soon!


Edited by chris106, 26 May 2014 - 09:01 PM.


#214 Mind_Paralysis

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 10:36 AM

Ey, small suggestion btw - have you and GetOutofBox considered doing a trade? Or perhaps some other transaction, you could then trade Intuniv for Modafinil or some sort, and GoB could finally try Modafinil out, and give his final verdict. =)

Seems like a lot of ADD-people that have had problems with anxiety prefers it, and IMHO GoB trying it out, would be a big thing for this board, 'cause he's got the knowledge - and if it works for him, I for one am definitely going to suggest it as a replacement for Ritalin and AMP to every ADD-er I know.

 

 



#215 chris106

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Posted 29 May 2014 - 10:38 AM

Seems like a lot of ADD-people that have had problems with anxiety prefers it, and IMHO GoB trying it out, would be a big thing for this board, 'cause he's got the knowledge - and if it works for him, I for one am definitely going to suggest it as a replacement for Ritalin and AMP to every ADD-er I know.

 

So would I, as a matter of fact. To me Modafinil feels a lot less dirty than other stimulants. Then again long term side-effects are not well known - and while I personally feel and believe that it's less harmfull than regular stimulants, that's hardly scientific evidence I could base reccomendations on.

Good Idea with the trade, by the way - but there's still the problem with customs - Canada and Germany both have ridiculously strict customs - trading meds per mail could prove to be quite difficult :)

The only option to aquire Modalert in the EU is to use parcel forwarding via UK, don't know if the same would hold true for Canada though...


Edited by chris106, 29 May 2014 - 10:39 AM.


#216 Liquidfire

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Posted 29 May 2014 - 04:32 PM

I have Modafinil on doctors prescription, as I just showed him research regarding Modafinil applied on AD(H)D(maybe you can try that?)

 

I'm taking only 100 mg though, and halved my dose of Ritalin. Seems like Ritalin and L-theanine are also a good combination :)

Also, adrafinil is easier to get then modafinil(which metabolises in the same end product).

 



#217 chris106

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Posted 31 May 2014 - 07:39 PM

Yeah, I have actually thought about trying to get it from my doc. But in Germany I think chances of health insurance covering it are pretty slim, unless you are a hard case narcoleptic. Of course trying won't hurt, I might do that in the future -
you sure are lucky to get real brand modafinil prescribed >_<'

 

Adrafinil I had in the past, and while I loved it, the 4-hour onset (!) was a turn off for me. I guess I metabolized it slowly or something, I've never read about it taking so much time to work for anyone... I also thought about using Bioperine to maybe enhance/quicken the effect, but ultimately didn't dare to - at least for now I rather spend more money but have reliable effects :)


Edited by chris106, 31 May 2014 - 07:42 PM.


#218 Mind_Paralysis

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Posted 02 June 2014 - 09:32 AM

Something I just read about Modafinil and Intuniv - there seems to be a theory that the two of them might diminish each others effects, to some extent, when taken together.

 

". From the Intuniv package insert: Intuniv is a CYP450 3A4 substrate. It will be induced [reduced in effectiveness] by Trileptal, Provigil (modafinil) and Tegretol."

 

 

Got the info from Dr Charles Parker's web-site:

http://www.corepsych...dosing-details/

 

He actually seems to be a pretty decent doc, he's seems to have a good idea about the combinations and appropriateness of certain drugs, for certain sub-groups.

 

I still think they could make for a pretty good synergistic combo tho', since even tho' the effect of Intuniv might be reduced to some extent, the added benefits of Modafinil should more than make up for it. Intuniv will naturally help with some of the stim-like side-effects of moda as well, imho.

 

And just to finish on an even better note:
 

"Modafinil in low doses has a unique physiologic profile compared with stimulant drugs: it enhances the efficiency of prefrontal cortical cognitive information processing, while dampening reactivity to threatening stimuli in the amygdala, a brain region implicated in anxiety."

 

From this study:

http://thirdreviewer...-and-cognition/

This is probably the secret to why Modafinil feels SO MUCH BETTER than other stimulants... it doesn't smack you down with the mother-load of all noradrenaline or norepinephrine hang-overs, but rather, it calms you down, WHILE energizing you. The result, is a much more stable person.

 

This might also be why it seems to be very fitting for people with Bipolar -disorder as well, it takes them out of the depressive phase, without arousing them like the stims do.
 

Man... I envy the few, the lucky, that can combine moda with Intuniv, and become mellow, chilled, yet enthusiastic about the good things in life.


Edited by Stinkorninjor, 02 June 2014 - 09:40 AM.


#219 Liquidfire

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Posted 02 June 2014 - 08:00 PM

Anyone know where I can buy Intuniv? Guess I have to convince my doctor again soon :P


Edited by Liquidfire, 02 June 2014 - 08:04 PM.


#220 GetOutOfBox

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Posted 03 June 2014 - 04:17 AM

MAJOR UPDATE (MUST READ):

 

I've been doing an incredible amount of research lately, and I have made a breakthrough. I'm piecing together results from various studies, and I may have discovered the penultimate link between a single neurological malfunction and ADHD (as well as several other disorders). What is this link? The NMDA receptor, and more specifically, calcium ion release (which it facilitates).

 

One of the things that has been confounding ADHD researchers is that several receptors and neurotransmitters have been observed to be dysfunctional in patients (which is odd, as it's highly unlikely that several distinct gene polymorphisms, each affecting one neurotransmitter system, could all come together so frequently) As it turns out, the NMDA receptor directly modulates several neurotransmitter systems, dopamine included. The glutaminergic system is the largest neurotransmitter system in the brain, of which NMDA plays a large role in. NMDA in turn directly connects to several other neurotransmitter circuits, which in turn influence other systems. Pretty much every neurotransmitter circuit in the brain is interconnected with each other, so a disruption in one can cause smaller disruptions in others. However, the NMDA circuit has the most direct connections and thus has the most signifigant influence.

 

Moving on; disrupted NMDA signalling has been observed in ADHD test case rats (specifically that NMDA receptors are overactive), however the authors of the few studies which have noticed this connection seem to have not appreciated the magnitude of this discovery, as a lot of what we know about the glutaminergic system's interactions with other systems is fairly new as well.

 

My own personal experience supports this hypothesis; my trials with Sunifiram, a potent glycine agonist (glycine are one of several receptors on NMDA neurons) found that it actually made my ADHD symptoms worse even at lower doses (thus excluding ODing as the explanation); causing increased brain fog and attention wandering. This is consistent with the theory that my condition is caused by overactive NMDA neurons; taking a glutaminergic agonist would in theory worsen the problem.

 

Another coincidence I recalled was that I've heard of some people with ADHD taking Memantine (an NMDA antagonist) to prevent Adderall tolerance (which is actually a real, separate phenomena). They all report it makes their stimulant medication work much better, but what if it's actually directly treating the core of their problem (partially or fully), giving the perception that it's just enhancing the stimulant when in actuality it's working alongside it (as well as preserving their response to it). This seems to be supported by the few cases I've run into of ADHD people using Memantine alone with success. As an NMDA antagonist, Memantine would indeed correct the problem of NMDA overactivity, but taking too much could push the problem in the opposite direction (underactivity).

 

Just to top it off, NMDA dysfunction also explains the extremely variable response to stimulants amongst ADHD patients. Returning to the use of Memantine to prevent tolerance (as blocking NMDA receptors does reduce the buildup of tolerance to certain drug classes), it makes sense that some patients with greater NMDA activity would experience more rapid tolerance to their meds than patients with lower (but still elevated) activity.

 

So we know that NMDA signalling has been observed to be a problem in ADHD patients as I have guessed. Now, what could cause that issue? I haven't established a single clear cause (and there may actually be multiple reasons why it's dysfunctional), however I recalled a very strange coincidence. It is fairly well known that supplementing zinc and/or magnesium often helps ADHD people from a mild to moderate degree. Guess which two ions are involved in modulating (normalizing) NMDA receptor signalling? Zinc and magnesium. Both ions play a role in preventing an NMDA receptor from activating in response to lower signals. Now, studies have disagreed whether ADHD patients consistently have depressed levels of those minerals, however it's possible that they may have normal serum (systemic) levels, but disrupted transporters which move them into the brain. If that is the case, then such patient's condition would be further aggravated if they also had lower than optimal dietary intake of them.

 

I also found that comparing other diseases where NMDA neurons are already suspected of involvement was also insightful. Note that NMDA's involvement in Schizophrenia is now very accepted by the research community, and several glutaminergic agents are being trialed alongside antipsychotic. Note the parallel where both NMDA and Dopamine seem to be involved in the pathogenesis? However get this: in schizophrenia's case the situation is flipped; NMDA receptor activity has been observed to be significantly depressed which (in line with my theory) causes increased dopaminergic activity, which in turn produces the psychotic behavior. This explains why antipsychotics do partially work; they're like painkillers, they treat the symptoms but not the problem. In this case, they counteract the increased dopaminergic activity, however they do not correct the disrupted NMDA activity. This explains why some symptoms of schizophrenia still persist with treatment, and additionally why ADHD patients also experience similar unresolved issues despite stimulant treatment.

 

After noticing this connection, I began to wonder if Bipolar disorder also shared this link. As I expected, it does (other studies have also noted that bipolar patients have elevated calcium in the CSF. NMDA activation causes a flood of calcium ion release). This makes sense, as the current overcomplicated explanations just seem unlikely (how is it that a disorder seemingly involving several completely unrelated gene polymorphisms all occurring together in a very specific way is not extremely rare?). It could very well be the exact same issue as ADHD, except a more exacerbated form. Overactive NMDA signalling in turn disrupting prefrontal cortical activity (just like ADHD, but to a far more significant extent), possibly rendering the PFC almost disabled, which would naturally in turn cause random mood swings. The prefrontal cortex is highly involved in mood regulation, as it serves to suppress the more raw emotional activity of the amygdala. Intrigued, I delved deeper. Lithium is the most common treatment for Bipolar. Doctors aren't entirely sure how it works, but guess one of the hypotheses. If you guessed that it has been observed to have NMDA-antagonist activity, you are correct ;). What a coincidence, huh?

 

Now, the first question that popped into my mind was: "Why hasn't someone noticed this yet? It seems like NMDA signalling would be a pretty obvious suspect.". The tricky part is, definitively deciding what is the root of the problem is very difficult, as I mentioned before, all of these neurotransmitter systems are interconnected. The dopaminergic system for example does actually loop back to the glutaminergic system (particularly the NMDA circuit). So it would be difficult to notice "Hey, this is where the problem is starting" just by looking at raw activity. Plus, since psychiatric medicine was originally very much "Try drug first, make theory after if it works", it's only recently that researchers are pursuing new avenues, considering the possibility that the original hypothesis was wrong.

 

So, wrapping things up this poses the extremely interesting possibility that if NMDA overactivation lies at the core of ADHD. I am personally extremely excited, and am going to obtain some Memantine to test the hypothesis on myself. It's a fairly well tolerated drug, and thus shouldn't pose serious risks if your liver and kidneys are fully functional. I will of course, continue to post.

 

For those of you who are not keen on trying an Anti-Alzheimer's drug without seeing some more case reports, some other more proactive things you can try are supplementing a combo of Magnesium and Zinc (be cautious with Zinc though, too much can be neurotoxic so try to keep the dose at 15-20 mg at most. Supplement it at night so that it doesn't interfere with copper absorption during the day).


Edited by GetOutOfBox, 03 June 2014 - 04:21 AM.

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#221 typ3z3r0

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Posted 03 June 2014 - 05:03 AM

Memantine has in fact been shown to help with ADHD and bi-polar.

 

 
 

Edited by typ3z3r0, 03 June 2014 - 05:08 AM.


#222 Nootmeup

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Posted 03 June 2014 - 05:50 AM

GetOutOfTheBox I have been following this thread for months and it is freaking Awsome and unimaginably helpful. I am just as excited as you are.... Every breakthrough, every new finding, and every new idea, suppliment, or theory someone has just makes my day..... Keep it up man your extreAmly intelligent and are helping hundreds more than you think..

....on a side note or question I've been seeing a lot of articles about alpha GPC and ADHD I have a bottle but hate experimenting and I like slowly add new things in my stack ,as not to effect my career's crazy demands. See I can never have an off days,except for the weekends.... I always have to be in the zone and focued.... Has anyone seen or had any Benifits or luck with GPC chloline I tried CDP a few months ago it just made me extreAmly sleepy. I notice nothing from regular bitrate but still take it sometimes . I do notice depression at levels higher than 500.... Sorry for going off subject..... This thread rules end of story.... Keep the ideas coming guys I will def be more consistNt with my mag and zinc... I find they both boost Libito too which is not really what I want but whatever.

#223 GetOutOfBox

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Posted 03 June 2014 - 06:29 AM

Just breaking down my previous post: If my hypothesis is correct, taking the appropriate memantine dose should grant an immidiate improvement in mood, "clarity", and concentration. This improvement may grow over time as neurocircuits stabilize and begin to function properly. Supplementary stimulants and/or adrenergic agents (Intuniv, Atomoxetine) might be needed to squeeze that last extra out, and one will notice that they do not develop tolerance to the effects of the stimulants as quickly.

 

The first few days may produce brain fog, which will likely resolve as upregulation/downregulation finishes. Memantine is typically well tolerated by Alzheimer's patients. As ADHD patients are actually using it to purposefully drop NMDA activity, they will typically perceive an actual improvement in cognitive performance, rather than the mild decline it can cause in people with normal NMDA activity.

 

 

 

Memantine has in fact been shown to help with ADHD and bi-polar.

 

 
 

 

 

Intriguing!

 

GetOutOfTheBox I have been following this thread for months and it is freaking Awsome and unimaginably helpful. I am just as excited as you are.... Every breakthrough, every new finding, and every new idea, suppliment, or theory someone has just makes my day..... Keep it up man your extreAmly intelligent and are helping hundreds more than you think..

....on a side note or question I've been seeing a lot of articles about alpha GPC and ADHD I have a bottle but hate experimenting and I like slowly add new things in my stack ,as not to effect my career's crazy demands. See I can never have an off days,except for the weekends.... I always have to be in the zone and focued.... Has anyone seen or had any Benifits or luck with GPC chloline I tried CDP a few months ago it just made me extreAmly sleepy. I notice nothing from regular bitrate but still take it sometimes . I do notice depression at levels higher than 500.... Sorry for going off subject..... This thread rules end of story.... Keep the ideas coming guys I will def be more consistNt with my mag and zinc... I find they both boost Libito too which is not really what I want but whatever.

 

The effects seem to be pretty similar to CDP-Choline, Alpha is thought to be slightly more bioavailable. In the end, it's probably not going to be a huge difference (besides placebo), and choline supplements aren't usually noticeably beneficial to adults. They typically don't get used by the brain for actual additional choline synthesis, but instead for just maintaining cell walls. So you're more looking at an anti-aging effect, and a mild one at that. If you want actual neuroactivity, you should try a cholinesterase inhibitor or acetylcholine releaser. These may or may not produce positive effects depending on how optimal your acetylcholine circuit is.



#224 Mind_Paralysis

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Posted 03 June 2014 - 02:46 PM

Some very, very interesting new facts there, Getoutofbox. You should actually try and put your data together, a kind of preliminary meta-study, and send it off to your closest ADHD-researcher. =) Even if they don't think it holds water, you will have done your part, in at least trying to get this in front of the researchers.

 

I rather agree that NMDA might be a reasonable area of research, since the incredibly interesting self-studies reported on ADDFORUMS, with Memantine-use, and the fact that it antagonises NMDA-receptors connected to Glutamate, while agonising Dopamine on the D2-receptor, seems to lend some credit to it.

I think you need to have a look at a somewhat similar compound as well tho': AGMATINE. ( it's been proposed in the thread before, actually.)

 

An over-activity of the enzyme Agmatinaze, which breaks down agmatine, have been noted in people suffering from Bipolar and depressive disorders.

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21803059

 

Agmatine works as a pretty powerful NMDA-antagonist, and I've seen people experimenting with it online, and it seems to have a positive effect for some of the ADHD-sufferers which have tried it.

It's one helluva' chemical tho', works on an incredible load of receptors and ion-channels in the brain, SIMULTANEOUSLY. That may be very good, but also very bad. It seems to have a sort of... modulatory effect, on large portions of the brain, simultaneously.

 

http://en.wikipedia....er.27s_Dementia

 

It should be noted that it has both anxyolitic and anti-depressant properties as well, which is definitely good news for us PI-types, as we've got that in spades.

 

Please, GetOutofBox, consider Agmatine a part of your research and trials as well - yes, I know the amount of receptors it affects simultaneously is INSANE in comparison to Memantine, but the similarities, as well as the fact that studies have found it to potentiate Anti-psychotics, just like Memantine, should be enough to warrant our combined attention.

 

As always, my heart-felt thanks for your continued research and generous sharing of your finds, GoB. =)

 

 

EDIT: D'oh! I just re-read the thread, and I notice it was you, yourself, that introduced me to Agmatine - so of course you're aware of its modes of effect.

 

EDIT2: This study is interesting tho', since Agmatine-levels appear to be heightened in people afflicted with Schizophrenia.

http://www.researchg...h_schizophrenia

 

It would be interesting if we could find any information regarding people with ADHD and ADD - I'm wondering whether we could have LOWERED levels of Agmatine in our brains...? Since in many ways, we are the opposite of Schizophreniacs, perhaps if Agmatine increases their symptoms - it's even implied in the above study, that increased leveles of Agmatine may have an accumulative ill effect on the brain, and may eventually be what makes Schiz-people susceptible to the disease in the first place.

 

So... maybe Agmatine is what we need? If it makes the brain produce more dopamine, then that may just be beneficial to us, as unlike the schizo-people, we have a deficit.

 

On another note, Agmatine is also a pretty potent vaso-dilator, apparently comparable to Citrulline, in that regard. So regardless, it might be something every ADD-er should look into, as vaso-constriction from these damn stims is a problem for a lot of us.


Edited by Stinkorninjor, 03 June 2014 - 03:25 PM.


#225 Ultravioletbllc

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Posted 03 June 2014 - 09:01 PM

I think your gonna Love my Novel NMDA inhibitor STack

With CAE Enhancers (dopaminergic is where things are focused)

and anxiolytic mediations

 

 

 

 

 

I haven't compiled my whole stack

 

BUT this will be a GREAT read for you guys interested in this!!!!!!

 

 

 

 

http://www.longecity...hibition-stack/



#226 chris106

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Posted 03 June 2014 - 09:48 PM

Yeah, Agmatine has been mentioned many times before, not sure if in this thread though. Taking Agmatine on it's own and even combining it with Modafinil can have quite powerfull effects - for example in taking the edge of Moda...But from my experience it's very hard to dose that stuff.

It is sold in 500mg caps, and while Bodybuilders take up to several grams a day, other users on Longecity had success with microdoses from 200mg and up.

The only problem is, at least in my opinion, that it has so many other varied effects besides NMDA antagonism. Check out

http://examine.com/s...ments/Agmatine/

It's not even that I'm affraid of side effects - it's just that the effects are rather subtle adn hard to notice from my experience. And especially when combining it with other drugs like Modafinil it's quite finnicky to get a repeatable, dose dependent efffect out of it...

Also it's ridiculously expensive, and too much chronic NMDA anatgonism will just dumb you down.

Keep in mind that I have ADD by the way , I guess for people with ADHD it Agmatine be more beneficial.

 


Yeah, Agmatine has been mentioned many times before, not sure if in this thread though. Taking Agmatine on it's own and even combining it with Modafinil can have quite powerfull effects - for example in taking the edge of Moda...But from my experience it's very hard to dose that stuff.

It is sold in 500mg caps, and while Bodybuilders take up to several grams a day, other users on Longecity had success with microdoses from 200mg and up.

The only problem is, at least in my opinion, that it has so many other varied effects besides NMDA antagonism. Check out

http://examine.com/s...ments/Agmatine/

It's not even that I'm affraid of side effects - it's just that the effects are rather subtle and hard to notice from my experience. And especially when combining it with other drugs like Modafinil it's quite finnicky to get a repeatable, dose dependent efffect out of it...

Plus it's ridiculously expensive, and too much chronic NMDA anatgonism will just dumb you down.

Keep in mind that I have ADD by the way , I guess for people with ADHD it Agmatine be more beneficial.


Edited by chris106, 03 June 2014 - 09:50 PM.


#227 GetOutOfBox

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Posted 03 June 2014 - 11:34 PM

Just adding that after a bit more research Memantine is actually a great candidate out of the selection of NMDA antagonists; it's a non-competitive negative modulator in practice. So A) Being non-competitive, it won't interfere in normal endogenous neurotransmission (as in, completely blockading the receptor), B) It doesn't skew signals in a single direction. It acts upon Magnesium channels, and thus simply raises the threshold required to activate the receptor, but does not completely block it. This translates to great tolerability, as well as being much likely more safe for long-term use.

 

One thing to expect is a few days to a week of initial brain-fog/memory impairment, as memantine is also an nAch (nicotinic Acetylcholine receptor) antagonist, and nAch receptors are typically normal or slightly downregulated in ADHD patients, so unlike NMDA antagonizing it will produce cognitive impairment. However it seems that the nAch receptors up/downregulate extremely quickly, and thus typically this antagonistic effect becomes irrelevant after a brief period. If you have an emergency (i.e important work presentation), smoking a ciggarrete will likely counteract this brain fog for 40 minutes to 1.5 hours (nicotine being an nAch agonist). However it's best to endure the brain fog for as long as possible, as during that time nAch receptors will be balancing out (smoking will temporarily relieve the symptom but will prolong the overall time needed to clear it).

 

Also, be cautious combining Memantine with stimulants affecting the dopaminergic system. Memantine is a D2 receptor agonist, and so combining it with another dopaminergic agent might push D2 signalling too high. Too much D2 activity also interferes with proper PFC function (just as too low does), so you don't want it to be overactive in order to have optimal memory function. Try titrating (gradually reducing your dose over a period of 2 weeks) your stimulant medication down prior to trying Memantine. See if it alone works. If after 2 weeks you're not ideal as you think you could be, try adding a low dose stimulant on top (i.e 10 mg Ritalin or 5-10 mg Adderall).

 

Some people may experience an additional benefit adding Intuniv on top, and the two agents should cooperate well together.

 

Some very, very interesting new facts there, Getoutofbox. You should actually try and put your data together, a kind of preliminary meta-study, and send it off to your closest ADHD-researcher. =) Even if they don't think it holds water, you will have done your part, in at least trying to get this in front of the researchers.

 

I rather agree that NMDA might be a reasonable area of research, since the incredibly interesting self-studies reported on ADDFORUMS, with Memantine-use, and the fact that it antagonises NMDA-receptors connected to Glutamate, while agonising Dopamine on the D2-receptor, seems to lend some credit to it.

I think you need to have a look at a somewhat similar compound as well tho': AGMATINE. ( it's been proposed in the thread before, actually.)

 

An over-activity of the enzyme Agmatinaze, which breaks down agmatine, have been noted in people suffering from Bipolar and depressive disorders.

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21803059

 

Agmatine works as a pretty powerful NMDA-antagonist, and I've seen people experimenting with it online, and it seems to have a positive effect for some of the ADHD-sufferers which have tried it.

It's one helluva' chemical tho', works on an incredible load of receptors and ion-channels in the brain, SIMULTANEOUSLY. That may be very good, but also very bad. It seems to have a sort of... modulatory effect, on large portions of the brain, simultaneously.

 

http://en.wikipedia....er.27s_Dementia

 

It should be noted that it has both anxyolitic and anti-depressant properties as well, which is definitely good news for us PI-types, as we've got that in spades.

 

Please, GetOutofBox, consider Agmatine a part of your research and trials as well - yes, I know the amount of receptors it affects simultaneously is INSANE in comparison to Memantine, but the similarities, as well as the fact that studies have found it to potentiate Anti-psychotics, just like Memantine, should be enough to warrant our combined attention.

 

As always, my heart-felt thanks for your continued research and generous sharing of your finds, GoB. =)

 

 

EDIT: D'oh! I just re-read the thread, and I notice it was you, yourself, that introduced me to Agmatine - so of course you're aware of its modes of effect.

 

EDIT2: This study is interesting tho', since Agmatine-levels appear to be heightened in people afflicted with Schizophrenia.

http://www.researchg...h_schizophrenia

 

It would be interesting if we could find any information regarding people with ADHD and ADD - I'm wondering whether we could have LOWERED levels of Agmatine in our brains...? Since in many ways, we are the opposite of Schizophreniacs, perhaps if Agmatine increases their symptoms - it's even implied in the above study, that increased leveles of Agmatine may have an accumulative ill effect on the brain, and may eventually be what makes Schiz-people susceptible to the disease in the first place.

 

So... maybe Agmatine is what we need? If it makes the brain produce more dopamine, then that may just be beneficial to us, as unlike the schizo-people, we have a deficit.

 

On another note, Agmatine is also a pretty potent vaso-dilator, apparently comparable to Citrulline, in that regard. So regardless, it might be something every ADD-er should look into, as vaso-constriction from these damn stims is a problem for a lot of us.

 

I have actually played around with Agmatine, I personally experienced no discernable effects, which is not surprising, since it mostly exerts it's actions as a result of raising CNS levels of Agmatine (similar to how L-Tyrosine affects dopamine). In general the enzymes and transporters associated with these kinds of things are rate-limited, and so adding more will typically only raise CNS levels for a short period before upregulation/downregulation occurs. Additionally, it competes for occupacy of the Alpha-2-Adrenal receptor, so it likely reduces the effectiveness of Intuniv.

 

So far it's unlikely Agmatine lies at the core of ADHD. The NMDA hypothesis has a lot more direct and indirect evidence supporting it (studies directly investigating NMDA and Dopaminergic connections, NMDA receptor morphology in ADHD patients, case reports from users of Memantine, the Zinc/Magnesium connection).

 

That's not to understate it's usefulness, it's definitely intriguing for Bipolar disorder. It's possible that it actually fits in with the NMDA hypothesis I proposed; as NMDA receptors calcium signalling strongly influences many up/downregulatory processes, it's possible that an NMDA malfunction could indirectly affect agmetine transporters.


Edited by GetOutOfBox, 03 June 2014 - 11:51 PM.


#228 Ultravioletbllc

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Posted 04 June 2014 - 06:32 PM

Nmda inhibition as well as positive modulation (simultaneously ) has worked better then ------( typical Stim w dr preferred choice of benzo )


My ADHD can make my PTSD go out if control ..nmda inhibition is a great non gabaergic or bzp receptor blockade method for calcium alone that .......l well the fact that it's first lab name was clonidine displacing substance

#229 Nootmeup

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Posted 06 June 2014 - 11:52 PM

Fascinating thread specifically because it is so pertinent do me. A few propositions and ideas from myself, reading the articles provided agmatine and memenine pose as good inhibitors/ antagonist of NMDA.
I was very pleased to think that we may be getting closer to the root of the issue. I commend getoutofbox for pointing this out.
One study states that agmatine inhibits nicotinic acetylcholine. And getoutofbox stated that Mementine ...also is a acetylcholine antagonist.
This worries me since it is such an important neurotransmitter and we are unsure of the extent of the inhibition. I smoke already so my acetylcholine levels are up..... I hope. And if ADHD's have lower levels I don't know if it would be in our best interest.
I understood in my reading that Hupazine- A would be a good option because it does inhibit NMDA but seems from my research in the past raise acetylcholine levels. So would this not be the best route of neurochemistry for ourselves?
I'm I'm interested in your guys feedback. I recall reading negative things about Hupazine-A on these forums around a year ago but I can't recall what they were perhaps someone could go over that aswell. I also read that creatine is a NMDA agonist or up regulates it........ I'm interested in that aswell... Some food for thought

#230 Ultravioletbllc

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 02:46 AM

Huperazine-A or Huperzine a (just two common spellings same chemical though )

Seems too have a variety of differentiating effects that are all quite user dependent


I cannot speak on those but from my own experience

Huperzine is a MUST have Nootropic and or nutraceutical

It has a broad range of effects for such a "Clean" drug

First and foremost it is a powerful and effective acetylcholinerase inhibitor
Secondly it is an effective novel NMDA inhibitor , I however do not believe that it is effective for Nmda effects as a standalone at any kind of "Normal" dosing regiments

Damn I'm out man and my phone is gonna die

I'll post more later but in short I'd say look at my recent post on Nmda inhibition I include a variety of scientific anecdotes on hup a and my own personal NMDA inhibition stack


It is mildly stimulating and verbal fluency as well as general consolidation and recall of memory all seem effected by hup a , btw it's also used in tcm for arterial health

#231 Ultravioletbllc

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 04:15 PM

My hypothesis too the negative side effects and general disdain many users here have for Huperzine a in the form of side effects can generally be avoided w/The following

Always supplement Hup a with
Either magnesium L threonate and or Agmatine
Incorporate the use of Alcar
(I have specifically found the effects of Alcar arginate w/lipoic acid too be beneficial and work more synergistically then regular Alcar due too dopamine dendrite density and the see saw relationship of ach and dopamine)
High dose fish oil or better yet high dose krill oil should always be utilized with Huperazine A


Too avoid over stimulation / anxiogenesis

Dose the Huperazine with a form of magnesium
If Nmda inhibition is what your after then use a blend of
Magnesium L threonate and magnesium taurate

Start small at say 25mcg Bid
Titrate up. 25 mcg for the first two weeks then start titrating up 50mcg a week until a daily dosage of between 400mcg minimum and 1200mcg maximum daily is reached

Slowly moving upwards in dose will definitely help ameliorate and or avoid all side effects

Combining the Hup a with magnesium is not only creating more effective Inhibition of Nmda but also reducing anxiety in general

#232 Liquidfire

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 04:50 PM

Keep whining or get a second opinion
 

All right fellas, gonna' need a bit of advice here.

 

FINALLY got to meet the ADHD-doc' here in my local health-care center. I presented both Intuniv and Modafinil to him, along with valid documentation of their effects - but of course... he didn't even look at it, and discarded it completely.

We then talked about Dexedrine and Metamina ( same thing, but in nordic countries) - no dice. No dice on Adderall as well.

Basically... he wrote me a perscription for more MPH. YAY!

 

Not.

 

IMHO, MPH FRIGGIN SUCKS!!! The anxiety it generates basically makes me want to crawl out of my skin, and the very thought of having to plug that sh*t into my veins, AGAIN, this time potentially even WORSE, is taking a major toll on my mood, since the expectation of a failur, in itself, is giving me anxiety.

WHY, WHY, WHY must the med-rules be so god-damn limited?! I understand... do no harm... but he knows DAMN WELL that giving me more MPH is a waste of time - I need a smoother, far softer stimulant, or it's going to trigger anxiety like there's no tomorrow.

And since Intuniv isn't even launched as a drug in the nordic region, that was out of the question as well - he had no idea what it was, and wouldn't even look at the documentation.

 

Man... I am NOT looking forward to f***ing around with Ritalin... that sh*t will no doubt work EVEN WORSE than Concerta, so right now I feel majorly bummed.

F**K IT!

Anyways... just felt like wenting... dunno' how much more of this I can take, quite frankly. I just want my life to TRULY start happening! I'm a writer, designer, painter, sculptor, even inventor, yet I can't do SH*T with my ideas, until my meds are perfect. F***... According to the tests I should be a card-carrying member of Mensa.

It's so annoying... seeing my potential... seeing what I could be... but unable to do... anything. Being stuck. Frozen in time. Frozen in one perticular state of life - unable to advance, my carreer, my love-life, or just starting to get over my commorbid problems.

 

I think I realized I've got another commorbid problem btw, I don't have just DCD and Discalculia, but I also seem to have Disgraphia as well - it would explain why I'm having a harder time evolving as an artist, than my friends. It also explains why my hand-writing is crap, and a few other things. I could be wrong tho', in some ways, it almost seems like Disgraphia and DCD are the same thing.

 

All right, enough of the whining, vent done. Suggestions?

 

I still have a perscription for Concerta - should I use that, but COMBINED with Ritalin? Can a small dose of Ritalin in the evening, get me past that bullsh*t of a crash that we all experience in the afternoon, with Stims?

 



#233 Nootmeup

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 02:54 AM

Ultra I really appreciate your feedback and wisdom, faster word recall..... hell yeah! I'm pretty sure I'm going to buy a HUP-A,

 

if your brain works anything like mine I'm sure I will have the same results, which I believe it does or you would not be here.

 

See growing up I had all the symptoms= me:unfocused, horrible in school, unmotivated,put on every med out there for add/adhd, poor fine motor skills,expelled, fired, too talkative, poor grades without meds, anyways I love that we are all on this journey of semi-natural neurochemistry together and love getting closer to a more advanced us.

 

I'm always leery of trying new supplements because I deal with sales constantly,people, many coworkers, and extreamly high stress at work and I would never want to be off my game or even worse unfocused or moody which will effect my productivity, which has happened in the past when I guinni pigged myself with oxiracitam CDP choline,yohimbe and rhodiola  and well you get the idea. things that inhibit good cognition or personality or didn't work for me.

 

Back to the topic ^ *ADD-_- ok so I will study HUP-A extensively when I get a moment to breath next week, but for right now could you elaborate or explain what Acytacholinrase is? I know its different from acytelcholine but haven't had a second of free time to dig into it. I know the agonistic part is amazing for NMDA and it is good for raising acytacoline but what is the acytcholinaRASE do? I just wouldn't want to be less focused idk tell me your thought. I will spend many hours next week investigating. Or anyone else fill me in :) sorry for the novel thanks ahead of time

 



#234 Ultravioletbllc

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 05:05 AM

OK so im going too off the bat sa one thing first Nootmeup!

 

Please dont give up on CDP-choline it has been Proven too be Dopaminergic , increase dopamine dendrite density , and um best of all for us (I have ADHD-PI!) IS Proven as a treatment for ADHD with some scientific backing,

Beyond that I only ever take uridine when I cycle Cognitex W/pregnenolone and Brainshield and I know for a fact it HELPS! but I Just had a research paper about plasma levels of Uridine and Choline POST administration of CDP-Choline ( I can dig it up if interested)

 

 

Huperazine A is pretty popular on a lot of the adhd'Er forums so its working for a lot of us

 

no no no my friend Huperazine A isnt just a choline alternative what it does is like what deprenyl does too MAO-B (only its shorter acting ......way shorter acting)

 

Huperazine A Prevents acetylcholinerase from working therefore the body can no longer Digest(destroy) the Acetyl Choline so you have in essensce a temporary blockade Keeping ACH(thats the abbreviation for acetylcholine) Levels Higher then normal

 

 

However (derr I was gonna mention this in the previous post I musta just forgot)

 

When Taking Huperazine A for ADHD Rx Augmentation is different then using it as a NOOTROPIC Treatment

 

Now it seems quite apparent You NEED both

 

 

So for you my advice would be as such

 

Focus on Huperazine A as your main cholinergic in Nootropics and as a Wonderful POTENT! augmentation too ADHD RX

 

 

too do that you wanna Optimize your Huperazine a

 

These are reccomended specifically since OUR target is Nootropic RX (a personalized Stack) solutions for ADHD(in my case co morbid with C-PTSD) , Because they all have synergism or have something too offer too potentate the Positive Effects of HUP a

 

Acetyl L carnitine Arginate W/Lipoic acid (dont take alcar in any form w/o lipoic acid )

 

The arginate form has a lot too offer an ADHD sufferer that regular Alcar doesnt and it still does Everything alcar does

wich is increase the synthesis of AcetylCholine

 

It also Increases Dopamine Dendrite density and Increases Nerve Growth Factor at one of the highest rates for any DRUG

 

 

1-3 grams of omega 3s a day SUPRA supplemented with krill oil (1-2 daily)

The krill oil adds in phospholipids and astaxanthin /zeaxanthin that omega 3s DONT have and taken with your regular omega 3s they will increase absorption

 

Magnesium (your choise of kind but since I value the NMDA inhibition I utilize MAGNESIUM-L-THREONATE w/ added Magnesium Taurate for any as needed doses) The magnesium obviously is anxyiolytic and its also a voltage dependent NMDA inhibiot so the Synergy is REAL HERE

 

250Mg Cdp Choline Daily (I take it in the hour after Lunch) and or Uridine @ 50 mgs Bi-daily (thats why I love cdp-choline it breaks down into cytidine ,uridine ,and choline .... Uridine shows lots of dopaminergic action and potential for augmenting a quality adhd stack)

 

Now you might ask why add in choline w/Huperazine A? The reasoning behind this is simple for me #1. Huperazine A does inhibit the enzyme responsible for breaking choline down but either way your choline levels are dependent on ACH synthesis so you might as well raise it up a LITTLE (hence one 250mg daily dose  cdpcholine)

#2.THE URIDINE!(thats only found in cdp-choline no other forms of choline supply uridine)

 

and finally rosmarinic acids or just a simple rosemary/SAGE extract (there are two really good hup A supplements that contain slight alterations in the exact supps I am speaking on)

 

Id pick Rosemary extract though at a really low dose and out of all these the ONE you cfford too not get would be rosemary extract

 

 

 

 

 

Huperazine A is doing more then Just NMDA inhibition and Choline Preservation / Recycling as it is definitly a MILD stimulant at REAL DOSES (for me thats 800-1200 mcgs a day spit to three smaller doses)

 

its easily in my top ten Substances RX or NOT that ive ever tried I dont cycle it either ....I do go on low doses for a little while every now and then and I have done a FEW washouts in the three years its been part of my stack

 

 

if you havent YET check out my thread about NOVEL NMDA Inhibition in the nootropic stacks section of brain health (forums) HERE

 

 

 

I list so much info on huperazine (studies , facts whatnot) and my WHOLE "Novel Nmda Inhibition stack" wich is invaluable in treating my ADHD (as is my CAE program wich I begin too talk about in that thread as well)

 

here is the link too that thread bro :

http://www.longecity...ck/#entry667504



#235 Mind_Paralysis

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 11:58 AM

On a completely different note: I've been checking out various Alpha-2-adrenergic agonists, since guanfacin has such a good track-record for both anxiety and attention.

And I've come upon one that might have been overlooked by most people, when it comes to their nootropic-stacks...

Enter - Cannabigerol! : D

It's one of the active substances in Cannabis (I believe GoB has mentioned it in passing..?) but it is non-psycho-active, and works predominantly on the A2-pathway, and very potently, I might add! And the best part is... it can be found in greater amounts in HEMP! Not Cannabis, so those protein-supplements that utilize hemp? They might contain a GOOD load of this stuff.

It also works as a moderate 5-HT1A receptor antagonist , which may be troublesome, but it doesn't appear to be any high affinity.

 

So, what do you think, lads? Maybe start adding some Hemp to our stacks? =)

 

Also, please note, this is probably one of the mechanisms of cannabis which calms ADHD-users down ( the other possibly  being MAO-inhibitors), BUT... it is actually found in much lower doses in illegal marijuana, since those breeds have been bred to have higher amounts of other cannabinoids. Hence, protein-powder should prove SUPERIOR.



#236 Nootmeup

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 09:00 PM

Thanks for the wisdom and update Ultraviolet! You can't put a price on info this good. I going to give Hup-A a try sometime next week.
Do you know what the half life is with it...and also how long before the noticeable effects build in the system? I read your thread ..all of it " novelty NMDA inhibition stack.... Very intriguing,specific and complete.i am grateful there are people out there like you.
I didn't have much time to research Hup-A... Correct me if I'm wrong but I think I read it increases MAo- B.... I was pretty distracted while doing the reading as I had a random person trying to converse with me.... While I was at a diner.. Alone! Lol
anyways If I recall right, I read that Alzheimer's and patients with Parkinson's disease have elevated levels of Mao-B, I could be way off so sorry for my ignorance, so it would be unwise to take Hup-b or does it inhibit Mao-b?

I will definity give CDP choline another shot ,GOBox said it should just have anti aging effects on me which I don't really care for..... In the end I used it just before sleep and always felt completely rested.... It is possible that it saturated or made my dopanine dendrite receptors and made them larger .... That would be great,
maybe even reversed the damage the years Adderall did to them which I read Adderall can do long term... most peoples brains are fried after long term Adderall use. I hated the anti social paranoia it caused be to have and the whole depersonalization too. Hell of a drug.

We'll I have an unopened bottle of Alpha GPC never tried it before you think it would be beneficial/ comparable Ultra? Or is CDP only recommended.
Here's the story with me and Alcar... I feel it works!there is a noticeable... Focus I get when I take it almost symilar to any typical Add rx med which is Awsome! I just started taking it in fact... Yes with Ala thanks for the tip... The only drawback ... Maybe I'm paranoid .....is I feel when I shower or comb my hair I feel there is a little shedding, or more hair loss that usual.. Have you experienced this? There are many threads on it.... So I take less and it seemed to help like today I broke the powder in half like 250 or 300 instead of the usual 500 maybe because the first time I purchased Alcar it didn't have Ala and the free radicals contributed to slight hair loss. Idk I would hate to go bald or have a recessed hairline haha that would suck right... But Alcar works! So I'm going to use it and cross my fingers or should I say follicles :p

After reading the inhibitory effects on NMDA of magnesium I bought a bottle, after reading your article I will purchase the Mag T which you recommended maybe I'll take them both at night time

Since you have been so gracious I think I'm going to tell you items my stack I like or feel work Phasphatilserine ..... Spelling I know ..... Buy it...it's great for memory and stated to work in many forums... tho .... Kinda expensive really does damage on my wallet owell.... DMAE.... There a lot of hatred on here for it idk why lol... People all say... It's a weak choline source.... I noticed it puts me in a good mood for some reason also it makes me more serious.. And focused .. Us Add'ers sometimes smile too much and it could leave to goofyness... Idk IMHO Last but not least theanine is bomb with a tad of coffee I feel it does good for me. Shed your thoughts Ultra and Gobox.
As far as the hemp..... Idk maybe sounds gnarly. Put possible

#237 Nootmeup

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 10:03 PM

There was some topics of discussion that I forgot to add.
As far as krill oil, I've never taken it... I will give it a shot and add it to my stack.
I do however take fish oil.
During my last check up I spoke with a doctor,a non- psychiatric mind you.nI brought up my struggle with ADD. He took it very serious, professionally and was very insightful which I appreciated. He mentioned that I should be taking a higher ratio of EPA than DHA. And that will reduce midochodrial and celluar inflamtion to the brain. I did some research and it does hold water. How much water you ask.... Idk ,I know the DHA to EPA ratio idea is always a debated subject on these boards so if anyone can close this case that would be generous.

Another thing I want to add which hasn't been discussed much on here it MCT oil, it has the ability to push the body into a ketogenic state.
This is benificial because the body being in ketosis cures multiple amount of neurological disorders: Alzheimer's, epilepsy, and possibly ADD. It seems to help when I cut on cabs but then again maybe I just have a gluten intolerance. But then again. On many of the links it says that casien protien, gluten, and specific artificial sweeteners can exsasterbate our symptoms with or with RX mess which I don't take anyways.

Food for thought.. Pun intended I guess.

#238 Liquidfire

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 11:11 PM

You guys ever tried pycnogenol, and if so do you have any idea why it would work and for what?



#239 Ultravioletbllc

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 02:50 PM

Pycogenol does indeed work as an augmentation too this stack with noticeable effects and amelioration of ADHD symptoms at really high doses of 150mg a pop and that's really the only reason I don't use it more often because the bottle lasts me a week


Huperazine a is not an Mao b inhibitor

However seeing as how most if not all of us ADHD ers have chronically low pea levels I've found Mao-b inhibition vis a vis deprenyl too be an astounding rx approach

Alpha gpc works bit through totally different channels and makes quite a few depressed I'm luckily not one of those people I just finished a bottle of cognitex( w brain shield) and that's the only way I take alpha gpc is if I'm running a bottle of cognitex because it also has 50mg uridine in a dose

I take phosphatidylserine every day it is indeed a worthwhile supplement


I'll get back with a more detailed response after lunch

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#240 Ultravioletbllc

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 02:56 PM

There are some. Amazing cannabinoids like. Hut-110 that offer nmda inhibition and I've read about a few ppl with serious anxiety having luck with the JWH developed synth cannabinoids





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