15 replies to this topic

[Renegade]

I seem to get pretty awful side effects when I consume substances that act on the acetylcholine system. I feel very spaced out and foggy brained, with extreme irritability. I have had this experience from consuming modest doses of:

- Piracetam
- CDP Choline
- Alpha GPC
- ALCAR (though I seem to be ok with 150 - 200mg)
- Choline bitartrate

Does anyone have any idea why I get these side effects and what this says about my individual neurology? Does this indicate a specific imbalance and if so, does anyone have any recommendations?
It is annoying, as the most promising nootropics do appear to work on the acetylcholine system.

I generally suffer from issues with 'slow' thinking and significant brain fog / confusion at times.

I have ordered noopept and aniracetam and will report back with my experiences with these substances.

Thank you

Edited by Renegade, 22 January 2013 - 02:21 AM.

[zorba990]

Have you tried adding pantothenic acid (b5) as a cofactor? I use 250mg per 2000mg phosphatidyl choline right now.

[Renegade]

Can you explain the mechanism behind how it would help and the your individual experience?

Also - given these reactions, do people think it is unlikely for me to respond well to ANY racetams?

Edited by Renegade, 22 January 2013 - 09:22 AM.

[health_nutty]

Can you explain the mechanism behind how it would help and the your individual experience?

Also - given these reactions, do people think it is unlikely for me to respond well to ANY racetams?

I had extreme irritibility with even low doses of Piracetam, but aniracetam, pram, and oxi are fine (with normal doses). I have felt some irritibility with upper end of the range with Pramiracetam. The effects of each racetam are vastly different.

[machete234]

Can you explain the mechanism behind how it would help and the your individual experience?

Also - given these reactions, do people think it is unlikely for me to respond well to ANY racetams?

My irritability was much more pronounced with piracetam in contrast to aniracetam.

But Id be interested why some people have this and others obviously not, according to some medicine information that I read its a common side effect that means about 1 in 10 people get this.

[Willou]

I had a depressive and irritable reaction to the administration of citicoline and choline bitartrate but not Alpha GPC.

[Guardian4981]

I too get depressed, irratable, and sometimes awful headaches.

I believe that choline tends to negatively influence dopamine levels. I eat alot of eggs every day since I am into excercise and want the protein. I find when I take a day or two and eat no eggs my mood and energy improves, some say the choline in eggs are anti dopaminergenic.

I think experiences vary by person based on brain chemistry, if your dopamine levels are on the higher side choline may make you feel even better as it could lower dopamine which could then perhaps raise serotonin.

I am the opposite my serotonin tends to be higher but dopamine is low.

[Renegade]

Interesting about the dopamine connection.

I tried 800mg of aniracetam for the first time this morning. I feel spaced out and my thinking seems to have become slow and 'blocked.' Motivation and mood are also very low. I also have a 'strange' feeling which is difficult to describe, accompanied with an altered visual field. It seems like it not the drug for me. On to noopet in a few days and if this doesn't work, I'm giving up on the racetams, at least for the time being.

[RJ100]

I too get depressed, irratable, and sometimes awful headaches.

I believe that choline tends to negatively influence dopamine levels. I eat alot of eggs every day since I am into excercise and want the protein. I find when I take a day or two and eat no eggs my mood and energy improves, some say the choline in eggs are anti dopaminergenic.

I think experiences vary by person based on brain chemistry, if your dopamine levels are on the higher side choline may make you feel even better as it could lower dopamine which could then perhaps raise serotonin.

I am the opposite my serotonin tends to be higher but dopamine is low.

I also eat a lot of eggs for the easy protein and hunger satiation.

The more I read on this site the more I become aware that some of my low dopamine issues may be related to my diet. Caffeine, BCAA's, fasting and now possibly eggs.

I potentially need to make a huge change to my mornings.

[Guardian4981]

I too get depressed, irratable, and sometimes awful headaches.

I believe that choline tends to negatively influence dopamine levels. I eat alot of eggs every day since I am into excercise and want the protein. I find when I take a day or two and eat no eggs my mood and energy improves, some say the choline in eggs are anti dopaminergenic.

I think experiences vary by person based on brain chemistry, if your dopamine levels are on the higher side choline may make you feel even better as it could lower dopamine which could then perhaps raise serotonin.

I am the opposite my serotonin tends to be higher but dopamine is low.

I also eat a lot of eggs for the easy protein and hunger satiation.

The more I read on this site the more I become aware that some of my low dopamine issues may be related to my diet. Caffeine, BCAA's, fasting and now possibly eggs.

I potentially need to make a huge change to my mornings.

Yes, I have been mulling for some time now on how to replace the eggs. I kind of follow a hybrid fitness approach in that I eat/train for more then a fitness type look but less then a bodybuilding look. I try to keep my calories on the lower side for life extension purposes but also try to keep protein a bit higher for muscle building purposes.

Its hard to replace eggs, I already eat 2 chicken breasts a day and a piece of fish or steak once a day. The eggs I have in the arm and often a few before bed too. I try to hit about 200 grams of protein total a day.

Years ago I used to have extra whey protein shakes each day and no eggs, but whey protein has more then doubled in price the past 5 years.

My dopamine has been really low the past year, a year ago I used 5mg elemental lithium because I read on here how great it is for longevity. But after using it for only a couple weeks my dopamine went way down, now even after many months of not using lithium my levels have not returned. I am trying mucana pruiriens starting today hoping it may help.

[RJ100]

Yes, I have been mulling for some time now on how to replace the eggs. I kind of follow a hybrid fitness approach in that I eat/train for more then a fitness type look but less then a bodybuilding look. I try to keep my calories on the lower side for life extension purposes but also try to keep protein a bit higher for muscle building purposes.

Its hard to replace eggs, I already eat 2 chicken breasts a day and a piece of fish or steak once a day. The eggs I have in the arm and often a few before bed too. I try to hit about 200 grams of protein total a day.

Years ago I used to have extra whey protein shakes each day and no eggs, but whey protein has more then doubled in price the past 5 years.

My dopamine has been really low the past year, a year ago I used 5mg elemental lithium because I read on here how great it is for longevity. But after using it for only a couple weeks my dopamine went way down, now even after many months of not using lithium my levels have not returned. I am trying mucana pruiriens starting today hoping it may help.

There's no replacing eggs imo, but I intend to cut back from 3/day down to just 1. I found a sprouted bread with a good sugar:protein ratio, so I'm gonna give it a go.

I hope the mucana helps you. It gave me headaches.

I dropped whey because of issues with glutamate - replaced it with BCAAs - only to find out they block dopamine production..

I bought some tyrosine to maybe up my dopamine production, but I'm waiting to try it until I give Jiaogulan a trial period. One thing at a time or you can't be sure what's doing what.

[Renegade]

What about eating MORE eggs for the protein, but just the whites, which I believe don't contain choline?

[RJ100]

What about eating MORE eggs for the protein, but just the whites, which I believe don't contain choline?

Definitely an option, although I hate the thought of tossing all those yolks in the trash. Maybe I feed them to the dog..

[Guardian4981]

I am wondering if there is egg white powder protein out there, though it probably would be no cheaper then just having whey protein...

I also wonder if regular egg protein powder has the choline, does it get destroyed in the process of making the powder?

Another option perhaps is to have greek yogurt with some bacon and Ezekial bread. Alot of folks on here don't like bacon but I can't give it up!

[chung_pao]

You are right. An excessive raise in acetylcholine will decrease your dopamine levels.
I've had some terrible experiences with excessive ACh; ranging from depressive to feelings of complete hopelessness.
This effect stems from low dopamime, among other things.

What it does is basically activate your parasympathetic nervous system and inhibit the release of catecholamines.

I've theorized (not claiming this to be correct) that acetylcholine is more responsible for CONSOLIDATION, which explains the elevation in ACh-levels during REM-sleep.

Since I eat a lot of meat and eggs, the solution for me was to ditch all choline supplements even though I use noopept and piracetam regularly.

This works perfect for me:
I take my ampakines with tyrosine and glutamine to increase my catecholamines and excitatory neurotransmission, and I view Choline as the switch for consolidation.

I don't at all believe ACh levels should be high when you want to be productive. Instead, I believe we should elevate ACh after studying/working/productive sessions to initiate consolidation.

Try a few things, minimize daily choline intake and/or ditch choline supplementation DURING the bouts you want to be productive. Take choline afterwards.
You could also be taking way to high doses of ampakines, since this causes too much choline uptake.

Again:
During work: Racetams, amino acids (protein/separate aminos) NO choline.
After work/before sleep: Take choline to initiate consolidation.
That's just the way I've started to view it and it works absolutely marvellous. My recall is always absolutely perfect the next day.

Edited by chung_pao, 28 January 2013 - 07:59 PM.

[alecnevsky]

If you're going to take piracetam and choline (although I agree with chung-pao, that you probably should not take them at the same time) before a productive event, make sure to take glutamate/glutamine + some tyrosine to counteract the Ach activity. I just took 4.8g of Piracetam and 800mg Choline Bitartrate, both for the first time ever and after about 30-40 minutes of productivity, I feel like I need a nap. I am pretty sure this is Ach activity. (I did not supplement glutamine/glutamate for testing reasons.) Next time I will try 4.8 Piracetam + 500mg Glutamic Acid + 500mg Bitartate. Then again, I am not sure how conclusive the glutamic acid effect is going to be since it takes a week to load piracetam.

Edited by alecnevsky, 28 January 2013 - 09:31 PM.