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Logbook: Crevetterebelle's rattie

Started by Crevetterebelle , Jan 25 2013 09:19 PM

c60 rats logbook

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#1 Crevetterebelle

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 09:19 PM

Hello I have 30 rats at home, 17 males and 13 females, covering ages from birth to 30 months. I am happy to participate in that collective experiment and to give a chance to my rats to live longer.

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#2 Crevetterebelle

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 06:37 PM

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#3 Adaptogen

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 08:01 PM

nice photos! I am very glad to hear that more people are taking the initiative and running their own experiments with c60.

Are you going to use any as controls?

#4 AgeVivo

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 09:29 AM

Hello,
Yes. Mind, niner, smithx and I have had numerous discussions to organise the experiment. One of the things that come out of our discussions is that we'd better include aged animals who do not have obvious ailments at the start of the experiment. The corollary is that the statistics will use age at start as an explanatory factor, either by excluding age_at_start below 9 and above 17 months (for example) or by using a dependancy with age (eg Cox proportional hasards assumption using age as a covariate).

I think we are going to use
- {one treatment and one placebo} for M9 and M10
- {3 treatments and 2 placebos or 2 treatments and 3 placebos} for M3 M4 M6 M7 M8
- {one treatment and one placebo} for M1 and M2

I will check with mind, niner, smithx, and Creveterebelle that this is OK or adjust the protocol adequately.

Edited by AgeVivo, 28 January 2013 - 09:31 AM.

#5 xEva

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 10:46 PM

Crevetterebelle, your rats are adorable. Good luck with the experiment.

Long live the rats

#6 niner

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 12:58 AM

This seems good. I would split M3-8 as follows:

M3, M4 {one active, one placebo}
M6, M7 {one active, one placebo}
M8 {one active}

I think we could give some active to farfadet with the bad tooth. It might make him feel better, even if we don't use him as a data point. Of course, if he showed an extraordinary lifespan anyway, I think it would be ok to admit him as a data point. (An abscess might shorten life, but they don't extend life.)

Do we know the strain of these animals? I'm impressed that their ages are known accurately. With an odd number of animals, I'd prefer to have more actives than placebos. The lifespan of the strain is presumably known pretty well, so in effect we have a large pool of "placebo" animals.

If Crevetterbelle has any breeding females, and would be interested in looking at it, it would be very interesting to see the effects that C60 would have on development. I would view that as a toxicity test which would have the potential of turning into a life extension test.

#7 Crevetterebelle

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 09:09 PM

The protocol is OK for me.
Farfadet is at the vet tonight for a second tooth abscess just below the ear. I hope he can participate in the experiment anyway ... and that do not die of the abscess (His father died shortly after Farfadet's birth because of it)

For most of these rats, they come from litters made by individuals, and for the most part we know a minimum two generations.
For the moment, Few of my breeding females are only 2 of 13, but it's a good idea to test C60 on them.

I prepare females presentation tomorrow evening, I expected a Vet confirmation on one of them for a mass level uterine strange. For the moment there is no indication tumor.

Edited by Crevetterebelle, 29 January 2013 - 09:11 PM.

#8 Logic

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 11:35 AM

All the best with the experiment Crevetterbelle.
I look forward to your results and log?

Perhaps look into xylitol for poor old Farfadet:
https://www.google.c...iw=1140&bih=506

Other possibilities include Coconut Oil, Colloidal Silver and Olive Leaf Extract.

http://www.coconutre...he Evidence.htm
http://coconutoil.com/peer_reviewed/

Edited by niner, 02 February 2013 - 02:46 PM.

#9 Crevetterebelle

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 07:08 PM

RIP Farfadet. Euthanasié le 4/02/13 - Tumor of Zymbal glands

Next Post : Presentation of Females !

#10 Crevetterebelle

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 07:28 PM

#11 Crevetterebelle

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 07:37 PM

Summary :

9 of my 17 males are ok for the experiment ( but if you want i can present my others youngers ratties. 2 males arrive in the end of february and in april at home)
11/14 females are ok for the experiment ( 1 of her is sick, 1 has 5 months (but it's a future breeding female) , and the last arrives in the end of february at home)

Total 20 rats its a even number !! =)

Tomorrow I'll make you some pictures of my installations.
I have a room for them. Everything is done to facilitate my task: exit and cleaning. Ventilation. Warehouse of Accessories.

Namely, that I make myself my fabric hammocks (It's my job let's say). And I do myself the mixture of seeds they eat daily. All this to better support my company.
My rats are socialized, and have all rights to veterinary care was 10 minutes from my house. I monitor their weight regularly. And I do very few litters. That's all

))

Edited by Crevetterebelle, 06 February 2013 - 07:56 PM.

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#12 Crevetterebelle

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 04:30 PM

Ratties Room :

#13 AgeVivo

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 11:58 PM

Wonderful, it seems we are ready to start!
I will ask the researcher who prepared the placebos and treatments to what solution numbers to use so have N treatments and M placebos (males), and N' treatments and M' placebos (for females), I will send you the numbered solutions along with pipettes to give the right dose, and I will write here what solution number go to what rat. We will exchange as much as needed by email or facebook message to be sure that the procedures are fully under control.

#14 Mind

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 06:42 PM

Wonderful! Thanks so much for taking up this project crevetterebelle. I can't wait to see how everything progresses.

#15 Adamzski

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 01:38 AM

Yes this is really great, perfect that you have popped up with a whole range of known aged rats! May they live long and prosper!

#16 AgeVivo

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 10:25 AM

Ok so I am asking the following numbers:

- 1 C60oo and one oo (for M1, M2)
- 1 C60oo and one oo (for M3, M4)
- 1 C60oo and one oo (for M6, M7)
- 2 C60oo and one oo (for M8, M9, M10)
- 2 C60oo and one oo (for F1, F2, F3)
- 1 C60oo and one oo (for F4, F5)
- 1 C60oo and one oo (for F7, F6)
- 1 C60oo and one oo (for F8, F9)
- 1 C60oo and one oo (for F10, F11)

Edited by AgeVivo, 09 February 2013 - 10:26 AM.

#17 AgeVivo

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 12:24 PM

Modification as for now we have exactly 10 solutions with c60 in olive oil, and 10 solutions with colored olive oil, and we are going to use all of them:

- 1 or 2 C60oo and 2 or one oo (for M8, M9, M10)
- 2 or 1 C60oo and one or 2 oo (for F1, F2, F3)

#18 Freebytes

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Posted 15 February 2013 - 11:14 PM

I am very happy to see someone with such a large number of rats initating an experiment with C60oo. Do not forget to include some of these rats as controls.

#19 Crevetterebelle

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Posted 16 February 2013 - 08:26 PM

What's about controls ?

I'm sorry, I said that I'm not very good in English,but I want to get it right for the experience, so if there are controls to do, I would.
AgeVivo: What is it?

#20 AgeVivo

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 08:14 AM

Dear Creverterbelle,

1. "Controls":
- the article from which this experiment is derived (http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22498298) had 3 groups: olive oil ("oo"), olive oil with c60 ("c60oo") and water. The experimenters were not blind to the treatments as by looking at the solution they would know what is oo and what is c60oo. In terms of lifespan it found c60oo >> oo >> water.
- Here we decided that the experimenters would be blind to the treatment in that we replace oo by colored olive oil ("coo"). Then it is possible to work with 2 groups in a 'blind' manner (I put quotes as the purist definition of blindness is more restrictive): c60oo and coo: the "treatment" and "placebo"
- "controls" are then oo (to check that the colorants do not affect lifespan), water, and nothing (not overnight fasting before giving something on bread). There are 2 big limits in using such controls: i) it is not "blind" as you see what rats are in what control group so the lifespan of your rats may be affected by this knowledge [more or less depending on whether it (unwillingly) impacts the way you care them] ii) most importantly the number of N per group decreases.

For the last reason we would rather either

only have the 2 most important groups: c60oo and coo
N = 4 or 5 for c60oo male, N = 4 or 5 for coo male
N= 5 or 6 for c60oo female, N= 5 or 6 for co female
- Total when combining gender: 10 c60oo, 10 coo
  Note: this is not like we have "N=10" : it is with different ages (and genders)
only have the arguably 3 most important groups: c60oo, coo and *?*
N = 3 for c60oo male, N=3 for coo male, N=3 for *?* male
N = 4 for c60oo female, N=4 for coo female, N=3 for *?* female
- Total when combining gender: 7 c60oo, 7 coo, 6 *?*
  Choice of *?*: what is the most important control? A newcomer would say water. Someone with more experience may say the "nothing" group. Someone with more experience may say "oo" (no colorant) group. Not obvious to me

=> Food for thought. For now I'd rather have only 2 groups. If there is a change to do it must be done say this week because I have everything to send to Creveterbelle and it would be a pity if our non-decision reduces N or stops the experiment.

2. Here is the "LongeCity waiver"
Creveterbelle could you reply using the quote button to include the text below and write something like "I agree" (if you understand and agree of course):

LongeCity.org makes an informal contribution to this project under its small grants scheme to defray some of the costs of shipping and equipment and provides a platform for project participants to communicate and share findings. LongeCity makes this contribution purely because it seeks to support 'citizen scientist' projects in general. LongeCity does not control the project, does not endorse the experimental setup of the project and makes no representations whatsoever regarding the project. All project participants take part in the project entirely at their own risk and liability

Cheers,
AgeVivo

Edited by AgeVivo, 18 February 2013 - 08:16 AM.

#21 Logic

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 12:20 PM

Dear Creverterbelle,

1. "Controls":
- the article from which this experiment is derived (http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22498298) had 3 groups: olive oil ("oo"), olive oil with c60 ("c60oo") and water. The experimenters were not blind to the treatments as by looking at the solution they would know what is oo and what is c60oo. In terms of lifespan it found c60oo >> oo >> water.
- Here we decided that the experimenters would be blind to the treatment in that we replace oo by colored olive oil ("coo"). Then it is possible to work with 2 groups in a 'blind' manner (I put quotes as the purist definition of blindness is more restrictive): c60oo and coo: the "treatment" and "placebo"
- "controls" are then oo (to check that the colorants do not affect lifespan), water, and nothing (not overnight fasting before giving something on bread). There are 2 big limits in using such controls: i) it is not "blind" as you see what rats are in what control group so the lifespan of your rats may be affected by this knowledge [more or less depending on whether it (unwillingly) impacts the way you care them] ii) most importantly the number of N per group decreases.

For the last reason we would rather either
only have the 2 most important groups: c60oo and coo
N = 4 or 5 for c60oo male, N = 4 or 5 for coo male
N= 5 or 6 for c60oo female, N= 5 or 6 for co female

Total when combining gender: 10 c60oo, 10 coo
Note: this is not like we have "N=10" : it is with different ages (and genders)
only have the arguably 3 most important groups: c60oo, coo and *?*
N = 3 for c60oo male, N=3 for coo male, N=3 for *?* male
N = 4 for c60oo female, N=4 for coo female, N=3 for *?* female

Total when combining gender: 7 c60oo, 7 coo, 6 *?*
Choice of *?*: what is the most important control? A newcomer would say water. Someone with more experience may say the "nothing" group. Someone with more experience may say "oo" (no colorant) group. Not obvious to me
=> Food for thought. For now I'd rather have only 2 groups. If there is a change to do it must be done say this week because I have everything to send to Creveterbelle and it would be a pity if our non-decision reduces N or stops the experiment.

2. Here is the "LongeCity waiver"
Creveterbelle could you reply using the quote button to include the text below and write something like "I agree" (if you understand and agree of course):

LongeCity.org makes an informal contribution to this project under its small grants scheme to defray some of the costs of shipping and equipment and provides a platform for project participants to communicate and share findings. LongeCity makes this contribution purely because it seeks to support 'citizen scientist' projects in general. LongeCity does not control the project, does not endorse the experimental setup of the project and makes no representations whatsoever regarding the project. All project participants take part in the project entirely at their own risk and liability

Cheers,
AgeVivo

Perhaps the above in French AgeVivo?
A translator and quick proof-read/edit should speed up the process.

#22 Crevetterebelle

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 08:26 PM

Yes please AgeVivo, can you translate in French for me ? It's very technic, and I don't understand all x)

#23 Logic

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 10:24 PM

Does this help?
http://translate.google.com/

Cher Creverterbelle,

1. "Commandes":
- L'article à partir de laquelle est dérivée de cette expérience (http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22498298) avait 3 groupes: huile d'olive ("oo"), l'huile d'olive avec C60 ("c60oo") et de l'eau . Les expérimentateurs ne sont pas aveugles aux traitements comme en regardant la solution qu'ils savent ce qui est et ce qui est oo c60oo. En termes de durée de vie a trouvé c60oo >> >> oo eau.
- Ici, nous avons décidé que les expérimentateurs faudrait être aveugle pour le traitement de que l'on remplace par de l'huile d'olive oo couleur ("roucouler"). Ensuite, il est possible de travailler avec 2 groupes dans un «aveugle» de manière (je mets entre guillemets comme la définition puriste de la cécité est plus restrictive): c60oo et coo: le «traitement» et «placebo»
- «Contrôles» sont alors oo (pour vérifier que les colorants n'ont aucune incidence sur la durée de vie), de l'eau, et rien (pas à jeun avant de donner quelque chose sur le pain). Il ya 2 grandes limites dans l'utilisation de ces contrôles: i) il n'est pas «à l'aveugle», comme vous voyez ce que les rats sont dans le groupe témoin que si la durée de vie de vos rats peuvent être affectés par cette connaissance [plus ou moins selon que l'(involontairement ) influe sur la façon dont vous les soins] ii) le plus important du nombre de N par une diminution de groupe.

Pour la dernière raison que nous préférerions soit ■ seulement les 2 groupes les plus importants: c60oo et coo
N = 4 ou 5 pour c60oo mâle, N = 4 ou 5 pour COO mâle
N = 5 ou 6 pour c60oo femelle, N = 5 ou 6 pour la co femelle
◦ entre les sexes lors de la combinaison totale: 10 c60oo, 10 coo
Remarque: ce n'est pas comme si nous avions "N = 10": c'est avec différents âges et des deux sexes ()

■ On peut dire seulement les 3 groupes les plus importants:? C60oo, roucouler et *
N = 3 pour les hommes c60oo, N = 3 pour coo mâle, N = 3 pour *? * Mâle
N = 4 pour c60oo femelle, N = 4 pour coo femelle, N = 3 pour *? * Féminin
◦ totale lors de la combinaison entre les sexes: 7 c60oo, 7 coo, 6 *?
Choix de *: quelle est la commande la plus importante? Un nouveau venu dirais eau. Quelqu'un avec plus d'expérience peut dire que le «rien» du groupe. Quelqu'un avec plus d'expérience peut dire "oo" (sans colorant) du groupe. Pas évident pour moi

=> Pour nourrir la pensée. Pour l'instant je préfère avoir seulement 2 groupes. S'il ya un changement à faire cela doit être fait dire cette semaine, car j'ai tout à envoyer à Creveterbelle et il serait dommage que notre non-décision N réduit ou arrête l'expérience.

2. Voici la «renonciation LongeCity"
Creveterbelle pourriez-vous répondre en utilisant le bouton de citation d'inclure le texte ci-dessous et d'écrire quelque chose comme "Je suis d'accord" (si vous comprenez et acceptez bien sûr):

LongeCity.org apporte une contribution informelle à ce projet dans le cadre de son programme de petites subventions pour défrayer une partie des coûts de transport et de l'équipement et fournit une plate-forme pour les participants au projet pour communiquer et partager les résultats. LongeCity rend cette contribution purement parce qu'elle vise à soutenir des projets de «scientifiques citoyens» en général. LongeCity ne contrôle pas le projet, ne cautionne pas le dispositif expérimental du projet et ne fait aucune déclaration concernant le projet. Tous les participants au projet de prendre part au projet entièrement à leurs propres risques et responsabilités

Cheers,
AgeVivo

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#24 AgeVivo

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 11:33 PM

en français (ça fait tout drôle d'écrire en français):
En fait crois que je dis des choses relativement simples mais de façon un peu compliquée, désolée ;-)

Ce que nous faisons est dérivé d'une expérience faite par des chercheurs sur le plateau de Saclay (responsable de l'équipe: le profeseur Fathi Moussa). Ils ont donné à des rats soit du c60 dans de l'huile (c60oo) soit de l'huile (oo) soit de l'eau (water). Donc 3 groupes: un traitement et deux contrôles. Le groupe c60oo a vécu plus longtemps que le groupe oo, lequel a vécu plus longtemps que le groupe water.

Ici; nous pouvons soit splitter les rats en 2 groupes ou en plus:
- En deux groupes c'est ce qui me semble le plus simple et adapté: la moitié des rats reçoit du c60 dans de l'huile (le "traitement"), l'autre moitié reçoit de l'huile... colorée (le "placebo") pour que l'utilisateur (toi; mais moi également en fait) ne sache pas quels rats recoivent du c60 ou pas. Ainsi, nous évitons le biais que les animaux recevant du c60 soient plus choyés et vivent plus longtemps simplement parce qu'ils ont eu plus affection. C'est quelque part le principe du double aveugle, même si les puristes diront que ce n'est pas du double aveugle parfait, donc je dirais de l'"aveugle".
Avec ce partage nous arrivons à N=10 animaux sous traitement et N=10 animaux sont placebo. C'est un nombre largement suffisant pour voir des effets importants, et encore plus suivant le nombre de participants à cette expérience distribuée. Toutefois les animaux ont des âges différents donc ça produit des résultats statistquement moins robustes qu'avoir N=10 animaux du même âge. Egalement la moitié (à peu près) de chaque groupe est des males et l'autre moitié est des femelles, si nous voulons vérifier si les effets sont les mêmes ou pas en fonction du sexe des animaux ça réduit encore la puissance (= robustesse) statistique de l'expérience.

- En plus de groupes?
En science il est fréquent qu'il soit difficile de définir un contrôle parfait et qu'il faille de très nombreux contrôles (et donc de très nombreux animaux) si nous voulons bien éclaircir quelque chose.
1. Typiquement, les colorants utilisés pour colorer l'huile pourraient en eux même avoir un impact (positif ou négatif) sur la durée de vie des animaux. Le chercheur qui a coloré l'huile a essayer d'éviter un tel biais, mais ça reste possible: donc on pourrait ajouter un contrôle de type huile sans ajout de colorant. Problème: l'expérience ne devient plus "à l'aveugle" car l'utilisateur risque de deviner entre les solutions de c60+huile et huile-colorée laquelle est de l'huile colorée, parce qu'il aura l'huile non colorée.
2. L'huile (d'olive) a a priori un impact positif sur la durée de vie des rats donc il serait bien de le mesurer pour voir de combien on impacte (si c'est bien le cas) la durée de vie des animaux par rapport à administrer de l'eau simplement (qui elle n'a pas a priori d'impact, car les animaux ont déjà naturellement accès à de l'eau dans leur cage)
3. Dans tous les groupes décrits jusqu'à présent il s'agit toutes les deux semaines de donner une solution (c600, coo, oo ou water) après que les rats n'aient pas mangé pendant une nuit (leur cage est changée la veille et la nourriture normale n'est donnée qu'après avoir donné la solution sur du pain). Cette restriction alimentaire a vraisemblablement un effet positif sur la durée de vie: peut-être faudrait-il le quantifier. Dans ce cas il faudrait ajouter un groupe "rien", c'est à dire qu'il n'y a pas jamais de restriction alimentaire.
Bon, si on fait tout ça ça mène à 5 groupes, c'est impossible avec le nombre d'animaux. Mieux vaut oublier. A la limite on pourrait peut-être faire 3 groupes: c60oo (1 ml de c60 dans de l'huile d'olive sur du pain, toutes les 2 semaines), coo (1 ml d'huile d'olive colorée sur du pain, toutes les 2 semaines), water (1ml d'eau sur du pain, toutes les deux semaines). Le choix de l'eau plutôt qu'un autre troisième groupe est discutable, mais il faut bien choisir.
Cette dernière solution est faisable. Personnellement j'aime moins car ça réduit le nombre d'animaux à n=6 ou 7 (avec des ages différents et des sexes différents) par groupe: s'il y a des effets moyens ( = non gigantesques) sur l'espérance de vie, le hasard de la durée de vie (les statistiques) risque de faire qu'on ne les verra pas.

Bilan: je m'apprête à t'envoyer les solutions correspondant à 2 groupes (c60 huile, et huile colorée), sauf si tu te sens plus à l'aise avec 3 groupes (eau également).
PS: quand j'écris "groupe" c'est une manière de voir et en aucun cas il ne s'agit de réorganiser tes cages bien-sûr.

2. Voici ma traduction en français de ce qu'un juriste de LongeCity a écrit pour indiquer que Longevity ne doit pas être tenu responsable en cas de problème avec le projet:

LongeCity.org fait une contribution informelle à ce projet (*) avec son système de petites contributions pour réduire certains des coûts de transports et d'équipement et fournit une plateforme (**) pour les participants au projet pour communiquer et partager les résultats. LongeCity fait cette contribution uniquement pour soutenir des projets de "science citoyenne" en général. LongeCity ne contrôle pas le projet, n'est pas responsable de l'organisation de l'expérience et n'est en aucune manière un représentant du projet. Chaque participant au projet participe avec ses propres risques et responsabilités.

(*) Mind et moi avons postulé et remporté 500$ maximum de la part de LongeCity, dans le cadre de ce projet et de science citoyenne en général: ce n'est pas pour nous, mais pour que typiquement je puisse faire rembourser mes frais d'envois, d'achats de seringues de 1 ml etc.dans le cadre du projet.
(**) ce forum

Tu peux appuyer sur quote garder ce dernier texte entre balises "quote" et répondre "Lu et approuvé". Ou mieux faire ça pour le texte initial en anglais avec "I agree".

#25 Crevetterebelle

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 09:33 PM

"LongeCity.org makes an informal contribution to this project under its small grants scheme to defray some of the costs of shipping and equipment and provides a platform for project participants to communicate and share findings. LongeCity makes this contribution purely because it seeks to support 'citizen scientist' projects in general. LongeCity does not control the project, does not endorse the experimental setup of the project and makes no representations whatsoever regarding the project. All project participants take part in the project entirely at their own risk and liability"

I agree, February ,19th, 2013

It's ok for two groups, for me.
We can start.

#26 AgeVivo

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 05:55 PM

Yes

I'm mailing you everything tomorrow
Let me know when you receive it.

#27 AgeVivo

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 12:25 AM

Ok, the package is ready to be mailed. It contains 20 solutions numbered from 1 to 20, 20 seringes numbered from 1 to 20 and one extra seringe named test. Every other week, each of your companion should receive 1 ml of his specific solution on bread; the 1 ml will be taken with his specific 1ml seringe:

//name of the rat, approx. age at start, number of seringe and solution:
MALES
Ouranos - 29 months - 1
EOS - 27 months - 20
Lo Yu - 25 months - 17
Curly - 25 months - 4
Arc-en-ciel - 22 months - 7
Nuage - 22 months - 15
Jumanji - 19 months - 16
Ohanzee - 13 months - 18
Klauss - 11 months - 2

FEMALES
Héméra - 31 months - 19
Demetra - 29 months - 3
Stella - 28 Months - 5
Pensée - 26 months - 14
Iris - 26 Months - 8
Schweppes - 23 months - 11
Pouchalou - 20 Months - 9
Ozalee - 13 Months - 12
Eloane - 13 Months - 10
Aelis - 11 Months - 6
Azilliz - 11 Months - 13

The correspondance between the name of your companions and the numbers is written on the seringes (each seringe has one number and one name). The extra seringe named "test" will allow you to train to put 1ml of your kitchen oil on some bread, so that you can get ready before you decide to really start the experiment.
If you have any question at any time, you can contact me on facebook, longecity, email, etc.

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#28 AgeVivo

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2,125 posts
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Posted 21 February 2013 - 08:23 PM

mailed this morning

#29 YOLF

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Location:Delaware Delawhere, Delahere, Delathere!
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Posted 22 February 2013 - 08:45 AM

Woohoo! This is awesome! So many rats in the trial now. Good luck Belle and long live Bell and her rats!

Does anyone else think Belle should be considered for an award title at Longecity for her contibution? Can they do that here? How about Longecity Princess?

How did you hear about Longecity Belle?

#30 clairvoyant

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Location:bulgaria

Posted 22 February 2013 - 05:54 PM

If I were you would have two groups MIXED gender animals. One control and one fed on C60-oo. By letting them multiply, we could see the interference of C60 with genes. The baby rats will be the first parents fed C60 rats on the planet.

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