47 replies to this topic

[leftside]

Leftside thanks for the reply. Oxiracetam is pretty good, just the feeling of "mental clarity" only last for bout two hours. I am assuming the positive memory effects last longer than that, but I guess I'll know when I write my economics exam this Friday. What is the advantage of Centrophenoxine over CDP Choline, is it safe? I never have trouble sleeping on oxiracetam since it wears out pretty quickly for me, which is why I'll be adding aniracetam to my stack which reportedly starts working a few hours after ingestion. I bought noopept last year, it too gave me brain fog. I also read that it has some sexual side effects from several posts, so I'm avoiding high doses of noopept. I say add the Pramiracetam to your stack, but keep the piracetam in there too since there is potential for synergy, not to mention piracetam is dirt cheap as well. I add it to my stack just for kicks because it's only ten bucks for 100 grams

I'm quite liking the oxi, but combined with my other stims I pushed things too far. It had to happen eventually... It's like driving a car: I like to redline the car through every gear to see what it can do, but I don't like to redline the car for too long. I've now cut down to 5mg Selegiline a week (1mg every day or so) and will just use Modafinil sparingly.

I've had no problem with Centrophenoxine. I cycle it. Every 4 days I take Centrophenoxine and every 3 days I take Alpha GPC. Have I noticed any cognitive improvements? Not really.

I'll add Pramiracetam next week and drop the Piracetam to see how it works on it's own. I then may add the Piracetam again in a few weeks time.

It looks like me, you and Gray.bot are looking for the same things. My goal over the next few months is to continue with different combos, but hopefully reduce my stack and find a nice combo that I can use "every day" and then other substances that can be used on an occasional basis for an extra "boost".

Edited by cryonicsculture, 06 August 2014 - 06:19 PM.

[BigJohn]

Leftside, what does your stack consist of? I am considering centrophenoxine but I have read that it causes smelly urine and smelly sweat (and I workout and tend to sweat a lot so don't want to smell revolting). Centrophenoxine seems pretty safe and combining it with the CDP Choline that I currently take seems like a good idea. I am adding aniracetam to my stack next week.

[leftside]

Leftside, what does your stack consist of? I am considering centrophenoxine but I have read that it causes smelly urine and smelly sweat (and I workout and tend to sweat a lot so don't want to smell revolting). Centrophenoxine seems pretty safe and combining it with the CDP Choline that I currently take seems like a good idea. I am adding aniracetam to my stack next week.

ALCAR: 2 * 500mg (AM and PM)
Piracetam: 2g AM, 3g PM (swapping this for Pramiracetam next week to see if there are any differences)
Inositol: 2 * 500mg (AM and PM)
Centrophenoxine: 2 * 250mg (AM and PM - Mon-Thurs)
Alpha GPC: 2 * 300mg (AM and PM - Fri-Sun)
Aniracetam: 2 * 750mg (AM and PM)
Oxiracetam: 800mg AM, 300mg PM (new addition this week and liking so far)
Green Tea: AM
Yerba Mate: PM

Selegiline: 5mg/week - though I might cut this down further or cut out all together. Even though I love how it enhances PEA and other substances I think it might be a little too much stimulus with my above stack.
200mg Modafinil: When I need an extra "boost", though I don't take this more than 2 * week
750mg PEA and 300mg Hordenine - once a week when I want to feel "recreational" at work but not overly so Might throw in a couple of grams of Tyrosine if I want to have a little more fun

150mg Phenylpiracetam if i want a boost before going to the gym/mountain biking/snowboarding in the morning at weekends.

I workout almost every day and have had no problems with centrophenoxine.

After a year of experimenting I am slowly but surely getting my stack "dialed in". Been some rough weeks. Been some "overly fun" weeks

[PTShapeShifter]

Big John,

I just started 2 X 500mg / day on Centrophenoxine, and so far, super positive visual enhancements,emotionally centered with a slight uptick in my cognitive focus. Also, after pissing twice, I detect no noticeable odor. Wondering if those who reported such re: Centrophenoxine, may have have had higher dosages or maybe a not so healthy diet that was causing a detox reaction...?

I'm logging my Centrophen. here -- a 2 week trial -- every day, so stay tuned.

PT

[BigJohn]

Leftside, what does your stack consist of? I am considering centrophenoxine but I have read that it causes smelly urine and smelly sweat (and I workout and tend to sweat a lot so don't want to smell revolting). Centrophenoxine seems pretty safe and combining it with the CDP Choline that I currently take seems like a good idea. I am adding aniracetam to my stack next week.

ALCAR: 2 * 500mg (AM and PM)
Piracetam: 2g AM, 3g PM (swapping this for Pramiracetam next week to see if there are any differences)
Inositol: 2 * 500mg (AM and PM)
Centrophenoxine: 2 * 250mg (AM and PM - Mon-Thurs)
Alpha GPC: 2 * 300mg (AM and PM - Fri-Sun)
Aniracetam: 2 * 750mg (AM and PM)
Oxiracetam: 800mg AM, 300mg PM (new addition this week and liking so far)
Green Tea: AM
Yerba Mate: PM

Selegiline: 5mg/week - though I might cut this down further or cut out all together. Even though I love how it enhances PEA and other substances I think it might be a little too much stimulus with my above stack.
200mg Modafinil: When I need an extra "boost", though I don't take this more than 2 * week
750mg PEA and 300mg Hordenine - once a week when I want to feel "recreational" at work but not overly so Might throw in a couple of grams of Tyrosine if I want to have a little more fun

150mg Phenylpiracetam if i want a boost before going to the gym/mountain biking/snowboarding in the morning at weekends.

I workout almost every day and have had no problems with centrophenoxine.

After a year of experimenting I am slowly but surely getting my stack "dialed in". Been some rough weeks. Been some "overly fun" weeks

Leftside, looks like a very nice stack you got there. Maximum stimulus is what I'm looking for. I've been interested in trying Phenylpiracetam but there isn't really a ton of information out there on it so I am wary of its safety. I'm willing to add centrophenoxine to my stack when I run out of CDP CHoline. I have also been considering Adrafinil for studying but I am unsure if it would be safe to combine that with all the nootropics I currently have in my stack. How have you been reacting to the Phenylpiracetam?

and as for PTShapeShifter I look forward to hearing about your centrophenoxine experiences! PTShapeShifter have you done any research about the safety of centrophenoxine? It seems like it isn't as well known as CDP Choline or Alpha GPC.

[PTShapeShifter]

Centrophenoxine was originally FDA authed. under the 'Lucidril' label an ancestor form of 'Provigil' -- now generic -- first developed in late 1950's anf FDA approved in 1960s. So it's well researched.


The chief component of centrophenoxine is DMAE which is part of the choline betaine cycle, natural to human and animal cells. Simple choline supplements, such as choline chloride or bitartrate are often broken down, as much as 60%, by gut bacteria. Thus, centrophenoxine derived DMAE is an especially ideal source of blood and brain choline -- making it very synergistic with the racetam group.

By adding a methyl group (CH3) to DMAE, choline is formed. The choline thus formed may then be used to make other valuable biochemicals, such as the major neurotransmitter acetylcholine, or the essential nerve cell membrane constituents phosphatidyl choline.


Centrophenoxine ‘cleans out’ the cells in your body and brain, improving their function and their longevity. Centrophenoxine has long being known to be extremely effective at reducing lipofuscin levels. Lipofuscin describes the potassium build up in the brain, heart, lung and skin cells. This biochemical clutter accumulates over a lifetime, sometimes reaching 30% of the cell volume in aged animals. The more lipofuscin a cell accumulates, the less functional it becomes, and once a critical threshold has been reached the cell may die. Both human and animal studies have shown that low lipofuscin levels correlate with healthy cellular function, while high lipofuscin accompanies poor cellular health.

It is also generally known to improve brain function. It enhances neuronal glucose (the chief brain fuel) and oxygen uptake, while increasing carbon dioxide production.

Centrophenoxine also raises neuronal RNA (derived from DNA in the cell nucleus) which enables neurons to form proteins which help encode memory, as well as repair cell damage.


Centrophenoxine is known to also reverse the age-related drop in RNA and protein production. One study with 76 healthy elderly, who suffered from significant intellectual deterioration, found that Centrophenoxine increased storage of new information into long term memory, while also increasing vigilance and alertness, after only several weeks of treatment.

Dosages:

-- Elderly people with significant intellectual decline/ may need three to six 250mg tablets per day taken preferably with breakfast and lunch, in order to avoid insomnia.

-- Healthy younger people may need only one or two 250mg tablets daily with breakfast or lunch.

To avoid any slight acetylcholine excess occurring, it is wise take occasional breaks from dosage (say, one day a week).

One Cautionary note: Centrophenoxine is a powerful enhancer of brain and peripheral nervous system acetylcholine levels, and too much acetylcholine can lead to headaches, neck, jaw and shoulder muscle tension, insomnia, irritability and hyperexcitability, agitation and restlessness.

SO FAR I HAVE NOT PERSONALLY HAD ANY OF SUCH SYMPTOMS LISTED ABOVE AT 2 X 500mg / DAY, BUT I"M JUST STARTING ON IT. ONLY A LITTLE EYE REDNESS WHICH CLEARS UP EASILY WITH VISINE DROPS. I may adjust back to: 500mg AM 250mg mid-afternoon and see how that goes.

[BigJohn]

As soon as I'm finished with my CDP Choline I'm gonna start out on Centrophenoxine. Seems like centrophenoxine does the same thing as CDP Choline, only Centrophenoxine oddly enough is cheaper then CDP Choline, and seemingly more effective.

[PTShapeShifter]

So far for me, Centrophenxine seems more powerful than the CDP - Choline in terms of brain energy boost without mania, stronger visual clarity *& stim, and memory.
Also, it's cholinergic effect may make Centrophenoxine more synergistic with Piracetam and the other racetams.

After my two week trial of adding Centrophenoxine modulating dosage as needed, my plan is to start a trial of Piracetam with the Centrophenoxine and cutting back to 250mg / day of Picamilon (GABA) and no CDC-Choline unless I have anticholenergic symptoms. DOes this logic make sense to you as an experienced nootropic trial person??

[leftside]

Adrafinil is good, but I prefer Modafinil. One of the few stims out there that seems to have very little side effects. Well worth a try. I have to limit my stims during the day tho, otherwise if impacts my sleep.

I find Phenylpiracetam to be good for physical activities, but not so good for nootropic value. Again, well worth a try! You can buy it in pill form from Antaeus Labs (a well respected nutritional/body building company): http://www.antaeusla...m/products.html or from Elevated Labs in powder form. I have both, but prefer the powder form.

[BigJohn]

PTShapeShifter, thanks to your post I'll definately be trying Centrophenoxine. It makes sense to supplement picamillon with the centrophenoxine since they impact different areas of the brain. Centrophenoxine is a biochemical precursor to the the acetylcholine neurotransmitter in the brain, and picamillon binds to the GABA receptors in the brain which is seperate from the acetylcholine receptors. The reason why I won't start on centrophenoxine right now is because I already have a choline source with CDP Choline so to me there is no point in having two choline sources from CDP Choline and Centrophenoxine because the basically have the same role in a nootropic stack.

Leftside, modafinil is of course only available on prescription, and seems pretty hardcore for a guy who doesn't really have ADD like myself and is just looking for a mental edge. I am just a little concerned that adrafinil might cause some problems with all the racetams and other nootropics I'm taking. As for racetams I'm gonna stick to the basics for now and I might consider colouracetam in the future. Racetams are very safe for the most part, there is a few causes for concern with a few of them out there, like nefiracetam which in trials, showed testicular toxicity in dogs and rats, but not monkeys. In the words of the great Scarface, "All I have in this world is my balls and my word, and I don't break em for no one!"

[PTShapeShifter]

Leftside -- I too must balance enhancements in alertness, cognitive function and needs for good sleep.

Research findings on Monafidil show: "Cognitive enhancement
There is disagreement to whether the cognitive effects modafinil showed in healthy non-sleep-deprived people are sufficient to consider it to be a cognitive enhancer.[57][58][59] The researchers agree that modafinil improves some aspects of working memory, such as digit span, digit manipulation and pattern recognition memory, but the results related to spatial memory, executive function and attention are equivocal.[57][58][59][60] Some of the positive effects of modafinil may be limited to "lower-performing"[60] individuals.[61] One study found that modafinil restored normal levels of learning ability in methamphetamine addicts, but had no effect on non-addicts.[62]"

I am a grad student looking for a study & technical material learning & memory boost... would you recommend Adrafinil??? if so, why?
or maybe one of the racetams for cognitive boost, not simply for alertness?

Many thanks for anyone with further input you could share on this.

PTShapeShifter

[leftside]

I'd recommend Adrafinil or Modafinil or an extra boost of mental clarity. Just because one is prescription only, doesn't mean to say you can't get it. I only use them sparingly. Max twice per week.

If you are new to nootropics, then I say yes to getting used to your new stack before adding one of these.

[Renegader]

How many people take more than 3 Racetams at once? Are they syngergistic? Is it a good idea?

[gray.bot]

How many people take more than 3 Racetams at once? Are they syngergistic? Is it a good idea?

I do. Yes they are synergistic. Yes it's a good idea.

Remember to lower your doses of all of them. If you take high doses of all of them actually what you will get is not much effects.

Sometimes less is more - especially when you are starting to mix and build multiple components into multiple stacks.

Many argue that to achieve real synergy you must hit multiple different pathways/modes of action, ie. its very common to supplement choline and acetylcholine precursors or acetylcholine esterase inhibitors with racetams to work synergistically with each other (studies on this were covered in the original smart drugs book).

A little less common is to supplement vitamin B analogues with racetams. Although some argue that pyritinol or sulbutiamine aren't real nootropics by increasing alertness and brain energy they can assist you in natural learning then supercharged by the racetams backing it up.

Sooner or later you are taking vitamin B analogies, choline precursors, different racetams, stimulants and wakefullness promoting agents, mucking around with dopamine and your posting a 'rate my stack' thread on longecity...

Welcome to the world of Nootropics. Have a nice day and remember, keep all synapses inside the vehicle at all times.

[Renegader]

How many people take more than 3 Racetams at once? Are they syngergistic? Is it a good idea?

I do. Yes they are synergistic. Yes it's a good idea.

Remember to lower your doses of all of them. If you take high doses of all of them actually what you will get is not much effects.

Sometimes less is more - especially when you are starting to mix and build multiple components into multiple stacks.

Many argue that to achieve real synergy you must hit multiple different pathways/modes of action, ie. its very common to supplement choline and acetylcholine precursors or acetylcholine esterase inhibitors with racetams to work synergistically with each other (studies on this were covered in the original smart drugs book).

A little less common is to supplement vitamin B analogues with racetams. Although some argue that pyritinol or sulbutiamine aren't real nootropics by increasing alertness and brain energy they can assist you in natural learning then supercharged by the racetams backing it up.

Sooner or later you are taking vitamin B analogies, choline precursors, different racetams, stimulants and wakefullness promoting agents, mucking around with dopamine and your posting a 'rate my stack' thread on longecity...

Welcome to the world of Nootropics. Have a nice day and remember, keep all synapses inside the vehicle at all times.

Thanks very much for your reply. If I take Prami, Ani and Oxi with Noopept. What doses of each do you recommend? I only have 300mg, 750mg, 750mg and 10mg capsules respectively. Are one of those each once or twice a day good, or should like 2 be taken in the morning and the other 2 in the evening?

I use Focus XT and Alpha Brain too, so Focus XT has Choline Bitartrate and Alpha Brain has Alpha GPC, which means I take more than one choline source. I'm not sure what you mean by the B vitamins, but my Multivitamin I take has Vitamins B1 to B12. I also take Gingko and Brahmi, and fish oil to increase absorption

Haha, and thank you. Sorry if it seems I'm hijacking this thread but I'm sure your awesome advice will help many. Thanks gray.bot!

Edited by cryonicsculture, 06 August 2014 - 06:20 PM.

[clockwatcher]

Liking the stack, +1 to what was previously said about dropping vinpo.

[BigJohn]

Renegader, have you taken pramiracetam? If so, did you combine it with other racetams?

[Deep Thought]

The release of beta-endorphins induced by cardiovascular training, enhances the learning capabilities of the hippocampus and increases the growth of neurons.

Moreover, exercise decreases the brain's global glucose consumption. ((http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC1474763/))
"Trained men had a more pronounced decrease in glucose uptake in the frontal lobe area compared to less-trained men. Regional analysis indicated that this finding was restricted to dorsal anterior cingulate cortex which is associated with cognitive, motor planning, emotional processing and autonomic functions...This finding suggests that physical training elicits adaptive metabolic changes not only in skeletal muscles and heart but also in brain."
There's also the fact that exogenous lactate formed during exercise crosses the BBB at a 50% efficiency, providing energy for the brain. Glucose is formatted into lactate by the astrocytes.

Such adaptations are to be expected in my opinion. Supposedly a similar process takes place when a person trains a skill for a long period of time, i.e. the glucose consumption is streamlined and someone very skilled will utilize less glucose compared to someone less skilled. Skills = math, reading, etc.

Cardiovascular fitness and IQ seems strangely correlated. Though it remains undiscovered if possessing a higher IQ is a causal factor of better cardiovascular fitness.

I suggest that, if you're not already doing it, you should start working out, because yours is an IQ-kind of study.

|*********************|
Critique of your stack.

Are you sure the stack is synergetic? I've often found that the less "nootropics" that I take at the same time, the better I perform.

Personally I didn't experience any benefits from taking piracetam, except a splitting headache - apparently it's not for everyone.

Vinpocetine enhances cerebral bloodflow, but may also induce cell apoptosis. Vitamin E also has the ability to enhance cerebral bloodflow. Tocotrienol may be more effective at this, but that remains to be seen. Vitamin E also reduces the muscle's need for oxygen. Mega-dosing it is dangerous.



|*********************|
Other supplements.

There are studies that suggest one should supplement with brain-nutrients. Especially phospholipids as the fatty membranes undergo lots of oxidative stress and need to be replaced. They're in a constant state of turnover (like almost everything else in the body).

Lecithin. (Contains ~5% phosphatidylserine, the active dosage of phosphatidylserine is 300 mg. 10 grams of lecithin contains 500 mg of phosphatidylserine.)
There was a study done on lecithin in Vienna, which showed that taking it made people better at numbers and similar thinking. (Better at low-level math I guess, I'm not sure if this carries over to calculus.)

CDP-choline. (Metabolizes to cytidine -> uridine. Be sure to get omega-3 fatty acids, either from fish or fish oil.)
Creatine. (Increases spatial memory and is implicated in ATP production.)