150 replies to this topic

[Flex]

May I ask why do you want exactly Selegiline instead of nautals MAO blockers like Rhodiola rosea, hordenine or Passionflower ?

You mean Selengine not Rasagiline,as mentionet above, right ?

You should anyway talk to a doctor, and get informed about the risk´s !!

Pills should be handled conservatively, means: only if needed
one point is that selegiline gets meatbolised to L-Amphetamine and L-Methamphetamine wich could decrease synaptic plasticiy (correct me if im wrong) and kills neurons in higher dosages.
------------------
If, then I would preffer Rasagliline !!!

------------------

It depends where you live in europe.

If you live in germany, then it is very difficult to get it perscripted.
In this case,You have to go from one Doctor to another to find one who is willed.
Or get it sended....

As for Countries like England, im not sure but you could get it maybe via online pharmacies, or an online perscription.
And in eastern Europe.. yeah you can just walk in a pharmacy and buy it.. there is all about the money, but maybe in England as well.

So it depends basicaly on the Coutry´s law or corruption.

-----

Rasagiline is very expencive the original is about 400 euro/ 100 * 1mg !! but as generic about 110 euro !

I heard Aurapharm is reliable.among other like doc morris for originals.
As for Generics: the problem that there are many scammers, who steal your money. Or who sell dangerous pills with unknown content

I dont know any reliable Vendors.

Search some forums. I will post you some if I finde some

Edited by Flex, 16 November 2013 - 02:52 AM.

[Flex]

Just learned, that Rasagiline enhances (only) GDNF mrna

and Selengiline (only) BDNF mrna.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19673610

Functional mechanism of neuroprotection by inhibitors of type B monoamine oxidase in Parkinson's disease.
Neuroprotective therapy has been proposed for age-related neurodegenerative disorders, including Parkinson's disease. Inhibitors of type B monoamine oxidase (MAOB-Is), rasagiline and (-)deprenyl, are the most promising candidate neuroprotective drugs. Clinical trials of rasagiline in patients with Parkinson's disease suggest that rasagiline may have some disease-modifying effects. Results using animal and cellular models have proved that the MAOB-Is protect neurons by the intervention of 'intrinsic' mitochondrial apoptotic cascade and the induction of prosurvival antiapoptotic Bcl-2 and neurotrophic factors. Rasagiline-related MAOB-Is prevent mitochondrial permeability transition induced by various insults and activation of subsequent apoptotic cascades: cytochrome c release, casapase activation, and condensation and fragmentation of nuclear DNA. MAOB-Is increase transcription of prosurvival genes through activating the nuclear transcription factor-(NF) system. Rasagiline increases the protein and mRNA levels of GDNF in dopaminergic SH-SY5Y cells, whereas (-)deprenyl increases those of BDNF. Systemic administration of (-)deprenyl and rasagiline increases these neurotrophic factors in the cerebrospinal fluid from patients with Parkinson's disease and nonhuman primates. This review presents recent advances in our understanding of the neuroprotection offered by MAOB-Is and possible evaluation of neuroprotective efficacy in clinical samples is discussed.

[Sciencyst]

I am currently in a very similar situation as you, OP. Daily Amphetamine use (Adderall XR 30mg) + a summer of drugs + cold turkey from smoking/zoloft. My symptoms are mainly extreme anxiety and panic attacks which lead to delusional thoughts such as being poisoned (the panic is so bad it's hard to accept its real source..), HPPD, motor control issues which are comorbid with the anxiety, cognitive impairment, inability to feel comfort, and more. But basically extrapyramidal and anxiety/panic to unbelievable extremes.

I am currently building up with Brahmi and sarcosine, which both take about 4-6 wks to take effect. I also grabbed some Ubiquinol, 5-HTP, and melatonin tonight as from what I have read they can help reverse some of my symptoms, and IIRC help reverse or amelloriate reactive oxygen species damage to dopaminergic neurons as can be seen with MDMA/amphetamine.

I find that the fastest and surprisingly most effective way to relieve my symptoms is eating bananas. I am serious. They contain dopamine and its biological precursors, and help greatly with many symptoms. I was hesitant regarding increasing dopamine levels as I had believed that increased dopamine=psychosis, but its not quite so black and white. The irritability that goes hand in hand with my psychotic experiences may well be caused by a dopamine deficiency, in some weird, difficult-to-grasp, roundabout way.

I theorize that my body metabolizes dopamine way too quickly into norepinephrine/epinephrine ever since withdrawing the MAO-B inhibitors in tobacco from daily consumption, along with zoloft (which alters dopamine metabolism or pharmacokinetics) and adderall..

http://upload.wikime...iosynthesis.svg

I will let everyone know if I ever recover..

[formergenius]

Never expected this thread to come alive.. Anyway thanks everyone for replying.

Meanwhile, in the batcave, I've done some stupid things. In retrospect, I was starting to feel and do better.
However, I'm disappointed to report that after doing cocaine 4 times, I am doing much, much worse. Figured I'd give myself a "break".
Funny how it seems that whenever I think I can't get much worse, I do.

It's to the point where I feel like I'm stuck in my own mind. I haven't left the house in +/- 2 months (since this all went down) either.
My memory has become worse than it was; which, believe me, is quite bad. I can't remember most parts of my day, whereas before my memories were vague but still coherent. I also can barely speak, and my visuals are to a point where I might as well be tripping.

So. Don't do drugs kids. Now that's in the past, not much I can do about it.

Pharms I currently have at my disposal:

• Levetiracetam (nothing)
• Coluracetam (unreliable)
• Piracetam (nothing)
• Nefiracetam (not sure)
• Phenibut (worsens dissociation)
• Etizolam (helps but with rebound anxiety)
• Modafinil (probably not a good idea)
• Selegiline (ditto)
• Tianeptine (don't think it'll help)

Supps:

• B-50 complex
• Vitamin D3
• Niacin (B3)
• CoQ10
• NAC
• Sarcosine (bit weary of the quality..)
• Glycine
• Melatonin
• Pregnenolone
• Milke Thistle
• Ginkgo
• Damiana
• Passiflora Incarnata
• Scutellaria Baicalensis
• Nigella Sativa
• Holy Basil
• St. John's Wort
• Mucuna Pruriens
• Ashwagandha
• Artichoke Extract
• Forskolin
• Curcumin
• Cannabidiol (worked great a few months ago; made me much worse this time around)
• CDP-Choline (trial pack 1 week)
• ALCAR
• Choline Bitartrate + Inositol
• PteroMax (Resveratrol, Pterostilbene, Polydatin)
• Astaxanthin (trial pack 1 week)

Not sure which to take of these.. The only thing I take are 2 B-50 caps and 10k IU D3 daily (and tobacco like a chimney). A lot of the above listed I've only received recently, but I've started taking CDP-choline 250mg, CoQ10 100mg, PteroMax 1 pill, and 100mg Niacin as of today. Also, I've decided to do LED/LLLT full-skull every other day for 30 secs per spot, but so far I've not seen any benefits.

katuskoti; I'm sorry to read of your situation.. Indeed I'm also weary (read: terrified) of having another psychotic experience messing with dopamine, hence I haven't yet tried the Mucuna Pruriens. If I gather the courage, I might try it tomorrow.

Lastly, I've ordered Afobazole, which I plan on taking.

As it stands now; I mostly lie around the house waiting for NSI-189, in sheer desperate hope it will help.

Anyhow; I'm feeling completely out of whack, so forgive me for not responding in-depth to the replies.

Edited by formergenius, 18 November 2013 - 03:46 PM.

[Flex]

Btw Holy Basil, Scutellaria Baicalensis and Ashwaghanda are anti-coagulants.

could cause inner bleedings.

Dont want to spread panic, maybe Im just to exaggerate. But that is just how Im roll

[magniloquentc0unt]

tianeptine helped me quite a bit, after i stopped taking it i started feeling so much better than i have in years.
this is being helped further by taking our brahmi queen bacopa monnieri in conjunction with gotu kola.

[formergenius]

To clarify; as of yesterday, I have decided to stick to the following stack:

2 B-50 caps
10,000 IU D3
1 gram Ascorbic Acid
100mg CoQ10
1 PteroMax cap
250mg CDP-Choline
1 NOW Mucuna Pruriens cap (60mg Levodopa)
100mg Niacin
30sec/spot LED full-skull every other night

Next week I'll be removing Citicoline. If no improvements by week 2, I will increase Mucuna to 2 caps.
If no improvements by week 3, I will add Artichoke and Forskolin. If no improvements by week 4, I'd like to add Afobazole.
I figured this way would suit my impatience better.

Any comments on interactions? CILTEP + Mucuna + Afobazole.. safe?

[BioFreak]

I was seriously fucked up, mainly due to stress. I can tell you that mucuna may or may not help, but you are always risking oxidative damage due to the metabolites of dopamine which you increase. since it is probably an extract, meaning more l-dopa and less plant, it will be more toxic then taking the full plant(since the full plant may have some protecting stuff in it). At one point I thought that mucuna was the only thing that was keeping me from getting depressive and fucked up, but it turned out that the uridine stack allowed me to completely cut down on the 5-htp stack, and on mucuna.

I have since then stopped the uridine stack too, but never returned to my depressed baseline, which is remarkable.

However, due to the extreme emotional stress I've had the last 6+ months since my grandma stopped being able to walk (so since then I am taking care of her), I developed massive dementia symptoms, look through my recent post for a full description of my symptoms (the post about mao). I did not continue with the uridine stack, which was quite stupid, now that I think about it.

I reversed this mental decline, that was going on for months and getting worse, within 5 hours with the combination of the only curcumin that has been proven to cross the bbb in humans, remove amyloid in humans etc, called longvida curcumin, and high dose NAC. My dosage: 500mg longvida curcumin, 1g nac, 2x a day. (more then doubling the dose will probably not result in a better effect).
A week or so later I added c60, and now I feel not only like a 34 year old having the brain of a 34 year old, but like a 34 year old having the brain of a 24 year old... pretty much getting back to my former shape.

Also, scan your brain for stress from memories, stress in the present, and stress from your vision of the future, and fix it. Additional stress will only make things worse (esp if you believe that stress is bad, lol). I had lots of events in my past which were bad. But that was not the real problem. The real problem was what meaning I gave those events, shortly after they happened. Its a decision you make after an event that gives this event exactly the meaning you decide. The problem is, that meaning will stick with you, and affect you (not the event itself!!) until you give your memories better meanings, that are the truth and not some distorted meaning you chose after you were still in shock from the event (thats why PTSD can be avoided if therapy starts ASAP after an event).
This also holds true for the present and the future. If your thinking is distorted, and you give your past / present / future the wrong meaning, it can directly affect not only your emotions, your mental abilities, but also your body.

Anyways. If your brain is fucked up, dont even start by fixing it yourself(increasing neurotransmitters, etc). Instead start by increasing the regenerative powers of your brain and let it do the work for you.

The perfect regeneration stack for me would be something along the lines of:
longvida curcumin 500-1000mg/day
nac 2000-3000mg/day
c60 (dosage unknown)
UMP
high enough doses of DHA
cdp choline, or another choline source since cdp choline may increase cortisol if yours is already high then... might be not the best choice, however, I used it when I stopped my other supps for depression. then again it could increase dopamine receptors, which may or may not be a good thing depending on person.
A multivitamin with enough folic acid for the uridine stack.
theanine to improve stress resistance, to be taken regularly or when it gets stressy.

If you don't have longvida curcumin but another curcumin, you can as well flush it down the toilet when it comes to effects on the brain. Well, don't, but the chance of effects on the brain will be minimal at best and take long to manifest. Still great for the body though.

Ashwaghanda may be a good addition because it decreases cortisol(therefore, supports the regenerative supps). It helped me to relax faster after exposure to stress.

Anyways, the stack I just posted is the most effective brain regeneration stack that I know ( I haven't tried the uridine stack in combination with the rest yet though, but I bet it will be at least a strong addition, since both are strong by themselves, but work on different pathways). It can actually reverse brain damage, and decrease altsheimers toxins such as amyloid! human proven!!!
While I had results with longvida curcumin and nac within a few hours(I suspect inflammation to be the first that had to go with that stack), regeneration of brain tissue through curcumin, c60, and the uridine stack will in fact take a while until your brain matter is rebuilt. It should not matter though since you should feel effects fast. For complete regeneration of brain matter, I would estimate that it can take 3-24months. Just an educated guess.

I do still not know why NAC together with longvida curcumin had such a synergistic effect on me, it might be that both increase catalase, that they may lower or modulate cortisol, or it may be that both work on different levels in each infammation and antioxidant activity, and therefore have synergistic effects. But I can tell you this stuff works for me. Before I was like a 70 year old, I was about to cancel all my future plans because I thought my brain had degenerated so much that I simply couldn't do it, and now I'm back in business and better then ever...

Also, get to the doc check your thyroid (tsh, t3, t4, and antibodies to be sure) because it can cause similar problems.

And you need to get your metabolism up (doing cardio, and try to increase intensity with time, eventually doing interval training up to 2 times a week). This also includes eating healthy, but enough, so your brain has enough carbs to burn all day. don't let it starve, but only with complex carbs...

And while you're at it throw n-back training in there, too. esp. if you are on that brain regeneration stack, it should help with increasing working memory too, if you train for it.

If you follow this, you may have a pretty good chance at getting your brain back to (better then) normal.

[3AlarmLampscooter]

Propranolol definitely helps. I remember reading Clonidine might also, just don't combine the two in high doses!

[magniloquentc0unt]

Anyways. If your brain is fucked up, dont even start by fixing it yourself(increasing neurotransmitters, etc). Instead start by increasing the regenerative powers of your brain and let it do the work for you.

isnt curcumin simply a MAOA inhibitor

[kelka]

Just out of interest :-/ are you still drinking alcohol?

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

[formergenius]

@BioFreak: Yes I believe having read of your experience is what prompted me to buy Curcumin. However, I've bought LEF BioCurcumin (BCM 95 I believe) which, alas, has no effect on me, even with 1g of NAC. The LongVida is quite expensive ($60 + presuming ~$15 shipping).. I'm not sure I'm willing to buy a different brand of a product that hasn't helped me based on claims of bioavailability differences (though I must say I haven't looked in to this matter). I'll look in to it further to see if there are other people who report the LongVida superior, seeing as currently I don't trust my own judgement for my desperation makes me a bit gullible it seems. Nonetheless, thanks for the advice; I'll look in to it (the c60 as well). Meanwhile, if you've a cheap EU source (Du bist Deutsch sehe ich.); I'd appreciate it.

@3AlarmLampScooter: Thank you; I was considering this for a long time as well (particularly Propranolol), however I already have low BP, hence I doubt it would be a good idea. This is why somewhere in the above posts I think I've mentioned Guanfacine, as it has less potent BP effects. However, this doesn't seem a realistic option for me.

EDIT: No, I don't drink alcohol.
EDIT 2: This is pretty convincing in regards to curcumin, however I don't know whether conflict of interest is playing a role.

Edited by formergenius, 19 November 2013 - 02:26 PM.

[sthira]

Tabernanthe Iboga, in the dosage required for psychospiritual effects (long story short: wtf?) Note: this was before the psychosis, I'm not thát reckless.

Sorry to take you back in time to your (long story short) Iboga experiences, but could you elaborate on this?

[BioFreak]

isnt curcumin simply a MAOA inhibitor

Nope. It's antinflammatory, antibacterial, anticatabolic, anticarcinogenic (removes cancer in a subset of patients completely, and stabilizes it in others), neuroprotective, reduces amyloid in the human brain (in case of longvida curcumin), regrows the hippocampus .... thats an incomplete list. And yes, it seems to be a weak mao inhibitor.

@BioFreak: Yes I believe having read of your experience is what prompted me to buy Curcumin. However, I've bought LEF BioCurcumin (BCM 95 I believe) which, alas, has no effect on me, even with 1g of NAC. The LongVida is quite expensive ($60 + presuming ~$15 shipping).. I'm not sure I'm willing to buy a different brand of a product that hasn't helped me based on claims of bioavailability differences (though I must say I haven't looked in to this matter). I'll look in to it further to see if there are other people who report the LongVida superior, seeing as currently I don't trust my own judgement for my desperation makes me a bit gullible it seems. Nonetheless, thanks for the advice; I'll look in to it (the c60 as well). Meanwhile, if you've a cheap EU source (Du bist Deutsch sehe ich.); I'd appreciate it.

Well if you're waiting for confirmation here, it will be difficult, because no one really seems to be on the top of curcumin science. The funny thing is, noone buys longvida since its so expensive. They try out other kinds of curcumin, which, surprise, wont work because they don't cross the bbb or it takes years to show an effect on the mind. And the magic conclusion: "curcumin didnt work for me".
Longvida is the only curcumin that has been shown to work in the brain of humans, only longvida curcumin shows proof that it can cross the bbb. So for everyone not having an effect with non-longvida curcumin, well, its simple, cause no curcumin actually made it into your brain. :D So its not a question of minor bioavailability differences, like one is better then the other, its more like the others don't work at all (or work only after a year or more, or by eating tumeric daily for your entire life), while longvida works very reliably.

Check out studies about longvida curcumin on www.longvida.com , or do a pubmed search on SLCP (other name for longvida) curcumin.
About Bioavailabilty:
http://truttmd.com/c...-created-equal/
There are a few more posts on the same site.

Also, for a case study of curcumin stopping multiple myeloma search google for margaret curcumin. She's a women who keeps her illness in check with curcumin, and does lab tests to confirm it is working. But she uses c3 complex with piperine and oil and quercerin and I dont know what else, mainly because it works for her MM. She has no priority for getting curcumin into her BRAIN, so this is why she prefers c3 curcumin. Still, its interesting to get more into curcumin.

To get 2 european sellers for longvida curcumin type into google: "site:co.uk longvida curcumin" I haven't found more. I get mine from specialhealthstore.

You should count my positive feedback as feedback from 2 sources, its working for my grandma too.

Maybe I'll write a post about curcumin, hoping that more people will try out longvida for mental purposes. In fact, I cant believe that curcumin is not a hot topic on longecity, since it has so many positive applications that work in anecdotal reports, and in human studies. In fact I consider curcumin a lifelong addition to any meaningful anti aging stack. How else would you keep amyloid in check, etc...

I'll stop ranting now.

Anyways, for actual brain regeneration, the stack I wrote you about is one of the best shots. It's expensive (UMP and longvida curcumin alone are the two expensive supplements, if you know a cheap source for UMP in europe, tell me ), but let me tell you that randomly trying out supplements that have no regenerative effects, barely replacement effects, will be more expensive in the long run because you will simply not get the effects you are hoping for and keep trying, with the risk of further damage (i.e. neurotoxicity with l-dopa). And while you try and try to get better, you probably won't get more productive, meaning less income, more experimenting, and prolonged suffering... Try my stack for one month. Its not expensive for one month, and its damn cheap, if it works.

Anyways, I am mainly speaking for myself, what I have experienced on myself and my grandma, and what I have researched. I'll keep my fingers crossed for you that you find your way back to great health, by whatever means!

Edited by BioFreak, 19 November 2013 - 06:44 PM.

[BioFreak]

P.S.: the study about curcumin that you posted is about longvida curcumin (SLCP). Forgot to mention that.

[formergenius]

@sthira: I'm afraid I can't remember much of the experience currently. Let's just say it was a bad trip. Maybe one day, when I can remember, I'll contribute to Erowid.

@BioFreak: Thanks for your elaborate reply!
In the meantime I've already ordered it, however not the Nutrivene but the CurcuViva, which is also a Longvida supplement. I'm presuming this will yield the same results? I've decided to remove the Mucuna Pruriens because today I felt worse, and this has been the most recent change.
As for the other things you've suggested, I have most of these. Not UMP, but doesn't CDP-Choline convert to Uridine, hence not that necessary? I'll look into UMP though. I don't have the means nor comprehension to fabricate c60, so that will have to wait. I eat fish almost every day, so EPA/DHA shouldn't be necessary.
Nonetheless I'll definitely give the Longvida+NAC a fair trial. Thank you for the good wishes!

Edited by formergenius, 19 November 2013 - 07:02 PM.

[BioFreak]

Don't mention it. Curcuvita is a bit low on dosage(348mg), nutrivene has 500mg/cap which is the dosage I am using, even if I have longvida in powder form (then aprox 540mg, with an 1ml scoop, but its not much cheaper...) So as long as the dosage is right, the effect should be there... its the same substance.
Part of cdp choline gets converted to uridine, but it seems like it is far inferior to a normal dosage of UMP directly, sublingual (which would be 250-300mg 1-2x daily). And that was my experience as well. You still need a choline source with your UMP, and it is IMPORTANT that you have also a high intake in DHA, because part of UMP's mechanism is regeneration of the brain, which needs enough building blocks (dha, choline,...). I made the mistake of taking uridine just with cdp-choline lately, and the effects were not as good. I think you need at least 700mg dha and more then 300mg epa, make sure that this is covered.

I also ordered UMP off an UK site, so the same search trick should get you there too - I'm worried much about customs in germany that's why I mainly order from within the EU.

I got my c60 from owndoc.com. No need for producing it yourself.

Keep me posted about your progress.

[formergenius]

Yes indeed, however it contains 80mg of Curcumin itself.. Not sure how much Curcumin is in the 500mg of Nutrivene, but if anything I can always take 1.5 caps.
I'll give this a shot first, and will consider introducing the MrHappyStack a la your recommendations, and c60 (ty for the link), after I've evaluated the Longevida+NAC stack. Will update when I receive the Curcumin.

[Flex]

here are some more suggestions:

You could also try Rehmannia Glutinosa aka Chinese foxglove.
it increased my euprohia 1 year after RIsperidone, as far as I know, it ddecreases CRF mrna, increases c-fos, GDNF and other things.
it shares like Scull cab various positive effects.

But thinns the blood in a way like Clopidorgel. So likely via ADP inhibition
So if you are interrested you should ask somebody who is experienced with its usage.
for me, just 5 drops thinned my blood for 5 days.
therefore i was too concered to take the recommened dosage ( 30 Drops a Day)
-----------
Humanobol helped me too. (meanwhile its cheap about 25 euro, but nearly not more aviable, if you are interrested, Humanovar is an alternative)
It contains various growth factors like IGF,TGF, EDF, FGF(Fibroblast growth factor= increases growth of blood vessels and therefore neurogenesis in the hippocampus)
and NGF( Nerve growth factor)

( BTW: The growth of new blood vessels and therefore the increase in VEGF and BDNF can be triggered by Exercise.
About 30 min of Swimming or 5 Km cycling a Day)

Side effects= growth of breast hairs ( had none before, lol)
and a small growth of prostate
------
Gelee Royale has also many good effects, as far as I know i it increases GDNF too. (about 8 euro)
must be taken sublingual.


hope that im not too engaged and over doing

Edited by Flex, 19 November 2013 - 08:10 PM.

[Virtual Reality]

Ive been reading this topic, and im interested in these supplements aswel.
My problems started due stimulants abuse aswel, high heart rate etc. panic. There probably was a underlying anxiety , the stimulants just increased it more and more.
Ive tried benzos , phenibut but they all dont have a effect on me.
Im not quite sure if there is really a imbalance in my brain. It has been 2 months since last use. What could it be? I guess my dopamine receptors ?
Im gonna try aniracetam, and will post results here.

Edited by alex921, 20 November 2013 - 02:27 AM.

[BioFreak]

Yes indeed, however it contains 80mg of Curcumin itself.. Not sure how much Curcumin is in the 500mg of Nutrivene, but if anything I can always take 1.5 caps.
I'll give this a shot first, and will consider introducing the MrHappyStack a la your recommendations, and c60 (ty for the link), after I've evaluated the Longevida+NAC stack. Will update when I receive the Curcumin.

Don't go by pure curcumin content. Longvida curcumin always has the same ratio of curcumin to lipids(bound as a molecule), no matter what product you use. Most curcumin formulas are curcumin bound to some kind of lipids, and those lipids make up most of the weight of the powder. So if it is longvida curcumin, it will always be the same ratio of curcumin to lipids. Others have lipid formulas as well, but it seems like there are many ways different lipids can be bound to curcumin and most do shit, or work only partially well. Studies always use the weight of the formula, not of it's curcumin content, some use both. In the end, its about the effectiveness of the whole molecule (curcumin + attached stuff that makes it absorb). Thats why I doubt that taking a curcumin lipid formula with oil will enhance bioavailability further.

[Flex]

Ive been reading this topic, and im interested in these supplements aswel.
My problems started due stimulants abuse aswel, high heart rate etc. panic. There probably was a underlying anxiety , the stimulants just increased it more and more.
Ive tried benzos , phenibut but they all dont have a effect on me.
Im not quite sure if there is really a imbalance in my brain. It has been 2 months since last use. What could it be? I guess my dopamine receptors ?
Im gonna try aniracetam, and will post results here.

About Dopamine depletion and cautions, in general, Read:

http://www.bluelight...p/t-577851.html

http://en.wikipedia....e_transporter_2
... Long-term use of amphetamine and methamphetamine causes long-lasting reductions in VMAT2 expression/activity, similar to chronic use of cocaine. This reduction of VMAT2 activity contributes significantly to the neurotoxic effects of amphetamine and methamphetamine....

http://www.reddit.co...y_psychoactive/
Furthermore, long term use of amphetamines leads to lasting downregulation of VMAT2, something that can be implicated in the mysterious emergence of neurotoxicity long after a regiment is started with an amphetamine, as well as (possibly) part of the addictiveness of amphetamines (since you can grow to rely on VMAT2 inhibtion).

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/10899292
Alternatively, this apparent reversibility of the METH-induced neuroadaptations may be related primarily to long-term decreases in expression of VMD-related proteins that recover over time.

I´m trying not to annoy, but I have to repeat it: go to a doctor

[Flex]

Regarding of VMAT2 I found this:

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/12921866
Pramipexole increases vesicular dopamine uptake: implications for treatment of Parkinson's neurodegeneration.
...Specifically, pramipexole rapidly increases vesicular dopamine uptake in synaptic vesicles prepared from striata of treated rats.
This effect is: (1) associated with a redistribution of vesicular monoamine transporter-2 (VMAT-2) immunoreactivity within nerve terminals
The implications of this finding relevant to the treatment of neurodegenerative disorders are discussed.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/12007678
Chronic clozapine, but not haloperidol, treatment affects rat brain vesicular monoamine transporter 2

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/17693585
Methylphenidate administration alters vesicular monoamine transporter-2 function in cytoplasmic and membrane-associated vesicles
...and they may have implications regarding treatment of disorders involving abnormal DA disposition, including Parkinson's disease and substance abuse.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/12604695
Methylphenidate alters vesicular monoamine transport and prevents methamphetamine-induced dopaminergic deficits.

Btw:Pramipexole can cause addiction, psychosis etc
and Clozapine needs to be monitored weekly (blood test)

And this ive found to be my case:
Collectively, these findings suggest that Vmat2 heterozygotes display a depressive-like phenotype that is devoid of anxiety-like behavior.

and this maybe the cause:
demonstrates that a single, low-dose injection of methylphenidate (2 mg/kg, s.c.) reduced VMAT-2 immunoreactivity in the synaptosomal membrane (P3) fraction while increasing it in a non-membrane-associated (referred to as cytoplasmic, S3) fraction. In contrast, a single low-dose administration of amphetamine (2 mg/kg, s.c.) decreased VMAT-2 immunoreactivity in the cytoplasmic (S3) fraction
http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC2581712/

I dont know how much is damage and how much is disregulation.
I hope i can reverse it as much as possible

PM me if you want to know a Pramipexole source

Edited by Flex, 20 November 2013 - 07:00 PM.

[Flex]

http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/9630494
Regulation of rat brain vesicular monoamine transporter by chronic treatment with ovarian hormones
..Ovariectomized rats were treated for 21 days with estradiol, progesterone or both

[Perception-Is-Reality]

You could always try memantine for the dopamine upregulation/memory enhancement.

[Galaxyshock]

strong placebo in this thread

Edited by Galaxyshock, 21 November 2013 - 05:48 PM.

[Virtual Reality]

http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/9630494
Regulation of rat brain vesicular monoamine transporter by chronic treatment with ovarian hormones
..Ovariectomized rats were treated for 21 days with estradiol, progesterone or both

Thanks alot, I didnt know about the vmat -2 part .
Did you suffer from the same symptons aswel? And which approach have you been taking? And how is that going so far with you?

[Flex]

I´m glad to help.

It´s to some extend similair.
I´ve suffer from a kind of stress symptoms. Best to be explained as if you been hunted by someone and you get a kind of pain in your chest.
at the beginnig of this, I wasnt even allowed to think or concetrate because it increased the pain!
Its strangely. Because of this state, which inhibits feelings like euphoria and emphaty, the anxiety is even lower.

Nowadays the pain is mostly gone, but i have memory problems and concetration problems, as well as Emphaty problems and anhedonia.
Cognition ins lower to this extend that it impairs "higher" thinking.
These ones are fluctuating, they come and gone. It makes me to come to the conclusion ,like "there is not enough dopamine to release"

The approach was a long way. I´ve found out that Nortriptyline, Amitrypline, Hupercin a(some times, some times not !?), Piracetam(also some times, some times not !?), Noopept(mixed results) Phenyl-piracetam(helped good) Doxycycline(had a infection,was still dull,but pain was gone until i took Quetiapine for a while),
Pramipexole(only for short and low dose, i feared the "lifelong"addiction regarding some users), Cyproheptadine with the combination of Mirtazapine(feeled good just after awakening), Tofisopam( before the Depression it made me dull and aphatic, but with the depression i just feeled ok!?)
Weed (the initial impact increases the pain and after 1hour it alleviate it) helped.

Lithium Ororate only helped for longterm( did a modulation but didnt hit the "point" directly)
And it seems recently to be that, ginseng( original ginsana g115 extract) with Mirtazapine and Rhodiola rosea increases the time of emphatic state
I try it before but stopped because it causes pain, but i had to do it because if found a job and needed it for memory/attention.

I´ve also tried Cocaine but it didnt helped (such a stupid idea)
I´m now at Psychiatrist no.5 who say´s that I´m a polydrug abuser (eye roll) and wants to make a Urine test, which limits me only to use Mirtazapine, ginseng and Rhodiola rosea.
I´m skeptic regarding this doctor, but I will try it. (and make my own diagnosis parallel to this sluggish Doc)

For the future approach ím planing to take Cerebrolysine, Pramipexole and Rasagiline.

I´ve read yesterday that Potassium and calcium( T channel) is needed to increase VMAT ammount.
And D2 receptor and muscarinic receptor activation needed for restirbution of VMAT. (as far as I remeber)
So i´ve allready have Thunbergia laurifolia http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/16001121 (causes strangely an increase in depression to me, but not 1 1/2 years ago! ) for potassium induction and piracetam for calcium channel activation.

Edited by Flex, 22 November 2013 - 11:20 AM.

[BioFreak]

Flex, I would strongly suggest to remove stress from your life if you haven't done so already. Also, to work on lowering the stress being put on you from your memories, your point of view of life and yourself and your vision of your future...
I'm just guessing here, but if those factors are playing a role you really have to get them solved, cause drugs won't help much with that. They may lower the symptoms, but not heal the cause. So, in a way, until you fix the cause of your emotions, no combination of drugs will really help. It is amazing, how experiences, and (more importantly) what meaning we give them, can destroy from the inside, also, how we think, and distort reality, and how we imagine the future.

And then, my main advice as always, don't try to fix the brain yourself, but help it fix itself...

"loss of empathy" seems to me like you've put most of your emotions in a place far away because you could not handle the constant pain anymore (which is inevitable if the emotional pain is strong and long enough). If thats the case, psychotherapy (a GOOD one..) is important.

Of course your problems could be something else entirely, after all we're on the internet, so forgive me if I am wrong. I had to say something though, because this sounds familiar.

[Flex]

I´ve forgott to add the Psychological part, which helped me:

I know this is going too much spiritual,(even if Im a believer i dont wat to burden you with this) but it was a way to relieve stress and helped a lot!

As I once somked weed i got the inspiration that everthing is controlled form god, so the past and future/fortune.
So, ergo, It relies to God if I would come to hell or heaven or what will happen to me.. i would deserve it, because it is fair judged.
So, ergo, I dont have to care about anything and all is in Gods hand.

And this idea caused me letting oneself drop and a total relief of stress and worry. I felt harmony and serenity (along the high lol) But no euphoria of course
Because This was the ultimate way to not worry about anything because the tough/idea is superior compared to be calmed by an advice or so.
I guess only winning a jackpot or so could cause the same (if any)

Now because `ve learned the "path" of harmony, i can recall it without thinking too much (about fortune and so) just like pushing a button and reduce the pain.
before this all I couldnt controll my mood/stress, everytime when i tried to force me or concetrate it got worser. And this was a horrible state along with no right treatment.