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WHAT IS AN INTELLIGENT CODE?

spieituality

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#31 johnross47

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 01:13 PM

For there to be an encoder and a decoder said code would have to have meaning. Meaningless things can be incorrectly labeled as codes having meaning and thus having an assumed encoder. We may currently see some things as being codes and having significance but that would likely be based on very weak assumed connections.

This pushing of seemingly complex natural things into the realm of codes really does feel like grasping at straws.

Spot on. Human brains project patterns everywhere, including places where they don't exist. Case in point: star constellations


It seems possible to me that you could have computer which translated any input, even meaningless gibberish, into a code then transmitted it to a second computer which translated the code back into the original nonsense. There isn't any meaning anywhere in that sequence but the transmitted data is a code.

#32 shadowhawk

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 11:19 PM

This is hellpfull. I would add that the medium of the code can be almost anything from flashes of light to stones. The thing that makes them a code is they contain a message which can be intelligently discerned. There is an encoder and decoder. :)


For there to be an encoder and a decoder said code would have to have meaning. Meaningless things can be incorrectly labeled as codes having meaning and thus having an assumed encoder. We may currently see some things as being codes and having significance but that would likely be based on very weak assumed connections.

This pushing of seemingly complex natural things into the realm of codes really does feel like grasping at straws.

I couldn’t agree with you more. Natural laws are not code. Abstract things such as numbers can be used to create code but do they exist on their own? They can be used by an intelligence to describe how things work. Numbers are extremely interesting in the hands of intelligence. It usually takes at least two intelligence to communicate a code. A code has information or a message that is passed between the encoder and decoder and takes intelligence to understand.

Water swishing down a toiled bowl can be descried by an intelligence using math to describe its behavior but the description is intelligent not the water. The numbers do not cause anything but are symbols used to communicate a description, usually between intelligence as I have said.

All stones are not the same. I have a large Indian collection with many thousands of stone tools, They are not the same as rocks I find along the beach. When I go looking for artifacts, I look for marks of intelligence. That is what makes a stone artifact different from a rock. Most people, though they have never seen an Indian recognize the marks of intelligence in an arrowhead with little trouble.

What is an intelligent code? It is more than just laws such as gravity. Pushing all things into natural things also is grasping at straws. Do intelligent codes exist and if so what are they?

#33 Lister

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 02:01 AM

I couldn’t agree with you more. Natural laws are not code. Abstract things such as numbers can be used to create code but do they exist on their own? They can be used by an intelligence to describe how things work. Numbers are extremely interesting in the hands of intelligence. It usually takes at least two intelligence to communicate a code. A code has information or a message that is passed between the encoder and decoder and takes intelligence to understand.

Water swishing down a toiled bowl can be descried by an intelligence using math to describe its behavior but the description is intelligent not the water. The numbers do not cause anything but are symbols used to communicate a description, usually between intelligence as I have said.

All stones are not the same. I have a large Indian collection with many thousands of stone tools, They are not the same as rocks I find along the beach. When I go looking for artifacts, I look for marks of intelligence. That is what makes a stone artifact different from a rock. Most people, though they have never seen an Indian recognize the marks of intelligence in an arrowhead with little trouble.

What is an intelligent code? It is more than just laws such as gravity. Pushing all things into natural things also is grasping at straws. Do intelligent codes exist and if so what are they?


A worn stone on a beach may show signs of intelligence via specific cut lines and the impression of it being worked into a tool of some sort. While a stone found buried deep in your back yard may show no signs of intelligence as it is smooth and average looking.

Even a prominent anthropologist may come to a conclusion that the stone from the beach is something that was formed by intelligence into a tool of some sort while also concluding that the stone in the backyard is nothing. It is a reasonable conclusion after all.

Yet if the truth is that the stone the beach was in fact nothing and the stone in your backyard was used as the tip of a hammer it wouldn’t matter. Someone official had come to a conclusion and that is that.

While this error in judgement is of little relevance on its own it can become a serious issue if it were used as the deciding factor in an aboriginal land claim. In this situation officials may exclude this as evidence on both sides pointing to its weak, subjective base.

Intelligent codes are important when everyone as the decoder can conclude who the encoder is/was and what the meaning is behind the code. Examples would be a story, document, book, article, program… etc.

Beyond this are pools of subjective possible codes with indefinite meaning held by individuals. Examples of these are star formations, Rocks on a beach, and DNA. Like the aboriginal land claim; using these subjective codes in important claims should be readily excluded due to their weak, subjective base.

Edited by Lister, 27 February 2013 - 02:03 AM.


#34 shadowhawk

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 07:20 PM

I couldn’t agree with you more. Natural laws are not code. Abstract things such as numbers can be used to create code but do they exist on their own? They can be used by an intelligence to describe how things work. Numbers are extremely interesting in the hands of intelligence. It usually takes at least two intelligence to communicate a code. A code has information or a message that is passed between the encoder and decoder and takes intelligence to understand.

Water swishing down a toiled bowl can be descried by an intelligence using math to describe its behavior but the description is intelligent not the water. The numbers do not cause anything but are symbols used to communicate a description, usually between intelligence as I have said.

All stones are not the same. I have a large Indian collection with many thousands of stone tools, They are not the same as rocks I find along the beach. When I go looking for artifacts, I look for marks of intelligence. That is what makes a stone artifact different from a rock. Most people, though they have never seen an Indian recognize the marks of intelligence in an arrowhead with little trouble.

What is an intelligent code? It is more than just laws such as gravity. Pushing all things into natural things also is grasping at straws. Do intelligent codes exist and if so what are they?


A worn stone on a beach may show signs of intelligence via specific cut lines and the impression of it being worked into a tool of some sort. While a stone found buried deep in your back yard may show no signs of intelligence as it is smooth and average looking.

Even a prominent anthropologist may come to a conclusion that the stone from the beach is something that was formed by intelligence into a tool of some sort while also concluding that the stone in the backyard is nothing. It is a reasonable conclusion after all.

Yet if the truth is that the stone the beach was in fact nothing and the stone in your backyard was used as the tip of a hammer it wouldn’t matter. Someone official had come to a conclusion and that is that.

While this error in judgement is of little relevance on its own it can become a serious issue if it were used as the deciding factor in an aboriginal land claim. In this situation officials may exclude this as evidence on both sides pointing to its weak, subjective base.

Intelligent codes are important when everyone as the decoder can conclude who the encoder is/was and what the meaning is behind the code. Examples would be a story, document, book, article, program… etc.

Beyond this are pools of subjective possible codes with indefinite meaning held by individuals. Examples of these are star formations, Rocks on a beach, and DNA. Like the aboriginal land claim; using these subjective codes in important claims should be readily excluded due to their weak, subjective base.


Actually it is quite easy to detect intelligence and design in stone tools. Even hammer stones used in the manufacture of stone tools are easily identified by the pock marks on the hammer end. So a naturally formed rock found on the beach is normally obviously not designed and its shape is random.
No underlying code or information pointing to design. Low information..

Don’t misunderstand, even the beach rock raises some amazing questions but in not the subject of our thread, Often we do not know the identify of an encoder but we can infer an intelligence by the design of the code. That is the basic assumption of SETI.

Again, if you can provide an empirical example of a code or language that occurs naturally do so because my view is that no code occurs only naturally.

Edited by shadowhawk, 27 February 2013 - 07:30 PM.


#35 johnross47

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 08:06 PM

Again, if you can provide an empirical example of a code or language that occurs naturally do so because my view is that no code occurs only naturally.

It depends what you mean by code. As I said further up, some uses we make of the word are a result of our general linguistic laziness and our tendency to see similarities everywhere. The existing word code has been extended to a non-man-made object, DNA, but we should be cautious about extending the assumed similarities too far without sound evidence. It has some of the characteristics of a code, in that it can store and transmit information, but it doesn't have the other frequent feature of codes, that is, being man made. It doesn't show any sense of purpose, unlike, say, morse code or computer code. By purpose I mean that it doesn't obviously have the sort of goal directed features that allow you make guesses about the purpose of the person who made it. It shows all the signs of being evolved rather than made, which sets it apart from morse code etc. But is it intelligent? In what way does an intelligent code differ from any other sort of code? How would we know. How would we identify an intelligent code if we saw one?

#36 shadowhawk

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 05:54 PM

is this an intelligent code?


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#37 shadowhawk

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 06:58 PM

Again, if you can provide an empirical example of a code or language that occurs naturally do so because my view is that no code occurs only naturally.

It depends what you mean by code. As I said further up, some uses we make of the word are a result of our general linguistic laziness and our tendency to see similarities everywhere. The existing word code has been extended to a non-man-made object, DNA, but we should be cautious about extending the assumed similarities too far without sound evidence. It has some of the characteristics of a code, in that it can store and transmit information, but it doesn't have the other frequent feature of codes, that is, being man made. It doesn't show any sense of purpose, unlike, say, morse code or computer code. By purpose I mean that it doesn't obviously have the sort of goal directed features that allow you make guesses about the purpose of the person who made it. It shows all the signs of being evolved rather than made, which sets it apart from morse code etc. But is it intelligent? In what way does an intelligent code differ from any other sort of code? How would we know. How would we identify an intelligent code if we saw one?


I asked you to provide an empirical example of a code or language that occurs naturally. You have provided nothing which would answer the request. You seem to be saying a code has to be man made to be called a code. Is this because humans are intelligent and thus capable of imputing information and instructions into their codes?

You say that DNA not only is not man made but it has no purpose. I agree it is not man made but disagree that it does not have purpose. It is the plan framework for thousands of different creatures. It is the intelligence in man that enables him to create code. Human intelligence is created by DNA! SETI is our attempt scientifically to find some other intelligent life beside man. Perhaps an intelligent code?

DNA is so information dense that a two hundred pounds of it could encode all the information humans have ever produced. We have nothing to compare it with. The topic is not just about DNA..

As for evolution producing an increase in information. Give me an example. You made a statement, “It shows all the signs of being evolved rather than made.” What signs are those? Did morse code evolve? Isn’t the issue intelligence? Show me any other kind of code. :|?

#38 johnross47

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 09:59 AM

I am possibly being more precise in my language than you expect. You have to distinguish function and purpose. A hammer has a function and derives its purpose from its maker. Purpose implies intention, which is why I used the term "goal directed". Function is a more mechanical term and describes how a thing is used or how it works but doesn't necessarily imply intention. A red blood cell has a function, but (unless you are a creationist) doesn't have a purpose.

DNA shows all the signs of being evolved because it is imperfect, and functions on a "good enough" basis rather than optimally; it is full of flaws and subject to constant changes and mutations. This is easier to see in bacteria than humans because their very short generation time lets you watch them evolve whereas our twenty year (or so) generations conceal the gradual drift of mutation. I don't think I said anywhere that evolution produces an increase in information, or that morse code evolved.

The issue is, what is an intelligent code? I am trying to clarify what exactly the question means because I suspect that a clearer understanding of the question will make an answer easier to find.

#39 johnross47

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 06:02 PM

"I asked you to provide an empirical example of a code or language that occurs naturally. You have provided nothing which would answer the request"
You're the topic starter not my boss; I can choose my own approach to the question, and my approach is to first of all try to understand it and work out what, if anything, it means.
I have been thinking of examples like heuristic programs and evolutionary design programs which are able to learn, in the heuristic case, and evolve new forms and versions of problem solutions in the design case. These might be considered examples of intelligent code, but obviously they are not naturally occurring. However, if we compare an evolutionary design program with a naturally occurring code such as DNA we can see differences. The program is designed specifically to mutate designs in an ordered way and to breed the successful results. DNA mutates randomly and frequently leads "designs" up blind alleys to extinction. The program has an end in view whereas DNA has none; it is fairly clear when the program reaches its climactic design but we can't say that of life forms; we can't begin to imagine what sort of creature might replace us when we go extinct in a couple of million years.

The program gets its intelligence from its writer; DNA isn't intelligent at all.

#40 donnie_d

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 08:52 AM

instead of searching for meaning behind DNA and c++ how about I ask the question of a philosophic code common throughout the planet.

a way of thinking where linked individuals who are not even the same species act together.

The code of Karma which is common between mammals, mould and plants.

How most often?

through Symbiosis.

Finally it is quite simple to negate peoples responses and refute with an ever specific list of requirements. i.e being the Devils Advocate (you prove it to me!)

How about we marvel in this amazing thought?

People acting together to provide an outcome (i.e. this forum), therefore you have naturally occurring code through the symmetry of action!

Isn't this is what you asked for! Naturally occurring code?

No one master is responsible for us all yet we all contribute to the same outcome. Therefore this is natural. Therefore it is code.

Edited by donnie_d, 04 March 2013 - 09:28 AM.


#41 shadowhawk

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 01:17 AM

From Wikipedia:

Information is a message, something to be communicated from the sender to the receiver, as opposed to noise, which is something that inhibits the flow of communication or creates misunderstanding. If information is viewed merely as a message, it does not have to be accurate. It may be a lie, or just a sound of a kiss. This model assumes a sender and a receiver, and does not attach any significance to the idea that information is something that can be extracted from an environment, e.g., through observation or measurement. Information in this sense is simply any message the sender chooses to create.

This view assumes neither accuracy nor directly communicating parties, but instead assumes a separation between an object and its representation, as well as the involvement of someone capable of understanding this relationship. This view seems therefore to require a conscious mind.

information is dependent upon, but usually unrelated to and separate from, the medium or media used to express it. In other words, the position of a theoretical series of bits, or even the output once interpreted by a computer or similar device, is unimportant, except when someone or something is present to interpret the information. Therefore, a quantity of information is totally distinct from its medium.

What’s important here is 1) information always involves a sender and a receiver; 2) an encoding / decoding mechanism; 3) a convention of symbols (“code”) which represent something distinct from what those symbols are made of. A paragraph in a newspaper is made of ink and paper, but the sentence itself may say nothing about ink or paper.

It may be very helpful here to point out the difference between a pattern and a code. Patterns (snowflakes, crystals, hurricanes, tornados, rivers, coastlines) occur in nature all the time.

A code is “A system of signals used to represent letters or numbers in transmitting messages.” Examples of code include English, Chinese, computer languages, music, mating calls and radio signals. Codes always involve a system of symbols that represent ideas or plans.

All codes contain patterns, but not all patterns contain codes. Naturally occurring patterns do not contain code.

#42 johnross47

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 08:15 PM

That looks like a step in the right direction. There are bits I would want to look at in more detail however. Presumably you would allow the sender and receiver to be the same person, so that storing information for later reference is allowed, for example.

The coding mechanism/system might conceivably be a bundle of neurons.

Are there any physicists here who might contribute an exposition of the use of information theory in cosmology?

I suspect a code could represent more than just letters or numbers. ( Chinese symbols trivially and obviously) it could represent more lumped information. There is not always a direct mapping of code symbol onto coded symbol.

#43 shadowhawk

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 10:41 PM

DNA MACHINES

"Advances in nanotechnology are paving the way for a variety of “intelligent” nano-devices, from those that seek out and kill cancer cells to microscopic robots that build designer drugs. In the push to create such nano-sized devices, researchers have come to rely on DNA. With just a few bases, DNA may not have the complexity of amino acid-based proteins, but some scientists find this minimalism appealing.
“The rules that govern DNA’s interactions are simple and easy to control,” explained Andrew Turberfield, a nanoscientist at the University of Oxford. “A pairs with T, and C pairs with G, and that’s basically it.” The limited options make DNA-based nanomachines more straightforward to design than protein-based alternatives, he noted, yet they could serve many of the same functions. Indeed, the last decade has seen the development of a dizzying array of DNA-based nanomachines, including DNA walkers, computers, and biosensors.
Furthermore, like protein-based machines, the new technologies rely on the same building blocks that cells use. As such, DNA machines “piggyback on natural cellular processes and work happily with the cell,” said Timothy Lu, a synthetic biologist at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT), allowing nanoscientists to “think about addressing issues related to human disease.”
Walk the line
One of the major advancements of DNA nanotechnology is the development of DNA nanomotors—miniscule devices that can move on their own. Such autonomously moving devices could potentially be programmed to carry drugs directly to target tissues, or serve as tiny factories by building products like designer drugs or even other nanomachines.
DNA-based nanomachines rely on single-stranded DNA’s natural tendency to bind strands with complementary sequences, setting up tracks of DNA to serve as toeholds for the single-stranded feet of DNA walkers. In 2009, Nadrian Seeman’s team at New York University built a tiny DNA walker comprised of two legs that moved like an inch worm along a 49-nanometer-long DNA path.
But to direct drugs or assemble useful products, researchers need DNA nanomachines to do more than move blindly forward. In 2010, Seeman created a DNA walker that served as a “nanoscale assembly line” to construct different products. In this system, a six-armed DNA walker shaped like a starfish somersaulted along a DNA track, passing three DNA way stations that each provided a different type of gold particle. The researchers could change the cargo stations conformations to bring the gold particles within the robot’s reach, allowing them to get picked up, or to move them farther away so that the robot would simply pass them by.
“It’s analogous to the chassis of a car going down an assembly line,” explained Seeman. The walker “could pick up nothing, any one of three different cargos, two of three different, or all three cargos,” he said—a total of 8 different products.
And last year, Oxford’s Turberfield added another capability to the DNA walker tool box: navigating divergent paths. Turberfield and his colleagues created a DNA nanomotor that could be programmed to choose one of four destinations via a branching DNA track. The track itself could be programmed to guide the nanomotor, and in the most sophisticated version of the system, Turberfield’s nanomachine carried its own path-determining instructions.
Next up, Turberfield hopes to make the process “faster and simpler” so that the nanomotor can be harnessed to build a biomolecule. “The idea we’re pursuing is as it takes a step, it couples that step to a chemical reaction,” he explained. This would enable a DNA nanomotor to string together a polymer, perhaps as a method to “build” drugs for medical purposes, he added.
DNA-based biosensing
DNA’s flexibility and simplicity has also been harnessed to create an easily regenerated biosensor. Chemist Weihong Tan at the University of Florida realized that DNA could be used to create a sensor capable of easily switching from its “on” state back to its “off” state. As proof of principle, Tan and his team designed biosensor switches by attaching dye-conjugated silver beads to DNA strands and studding the strands onto a gold surface. In the “off” state, the switches are pushed upright by extra DNA strands that fold around them, holding the silver beads away from the gold surface. These extra “off”-holding strands are designed to bind to the target molecule—in this case ATP—such that adding the target to the system coaxes the supporting strands away from the DNA switches. This allows the switch to fold over, bringing the silver bead within a few nanometers of the gold surface and creating a “hotspot” for Raman spectroscopy —the switch’s “on” state.
Previous work on creating biosensors based on Raman spectroscopy, which measures the shift in energy from a laser beam after it’s scattered by individual molecules, created irreversible hotspots. But Tan can wash away the ATP and add more supporting strands to easily ready his sensor for another round of detection, making it a re-usable technology.
Though his sensor is in its early stages, Tan envisions designing biosensors for medical applications like cancer biomarker detection. By using detection strands that bind directly to a specific cancer biomarker, biosensors based on Tan’s strategy would be able to sensitively detect signs of cancer without need for prior labeling with radionuclides or fluorescent dyes, he noted.
Computing with DNA
Yet another potential use for DNA is in data storage and computing, and researchers have recently demonstrated the molecule’s ability to store and transmit information. Researchers at Harvard University recently packed an impressive density of information into DNA—more than 5 petabits (1,000 terabits) of data per cubic millimeter of DNA—and other scientists are hoping to take advantage of DNA’s ability to encode instructions for turning genes on and off to create entire DNA-based computers.
Although it’s unlikely that DNA-based computing will ever be as lightning fast as the silicon-based chips in our laptops and smartphones, DNA “allows us to bring computation to other realms where silicon-based computing will not perform,” said MIT’s Lu—such as living cells.
In his latest project, published last month (February 10) in Nature Biotechnology, Lu and his colleagues used Escherichia coli cells to design cell-based logic circuits that “remember” what functions they’ve performed by permanently altering DNA sequences. The system relies on DNA recombinases that can flip the direction of transcriptional promoters or terminators placed in front of a green fluorescent protein (GFP) gene. Flipping a backward-facing promoter can turn on GFP expression, for example, as can inverting a forward-facing terminator. In contrast, inverting a forward-facing promoter or a backward-facing terminator can block GFP expression. By using target sequences unique to two different DNA recombinases, Lu could control which promoters or terminators were flipped. By switching the number and direction of promoters and terminators, as well as changing which recombinase target sequences flanked each genetic element, Lu and his team induced the bacterial cells to perform basic logic functions, such as AND and OR.
Importantly, because the recombinases permanently alter the bacteria’s DNA sequence, the cells “remember” the logic functions they’ve completed—even after the inputs are long gone and 90 cell divisions have passed. Lu already envisions medical applications relying on such a system. For example, he speculated that bacterial cells could be programmed to signal the existence of tiny intestinal bleeds that may indicate intestinal cancer by expressing a dye in response to bloody stool. Such a diagnostic tool could be designed in the form of a probiotic pill, he said, replacing more invasive procedures.
Applications based on these studies are still years away from the bedside or the commercial market, but researchers are optimistic. “[It’s] increasingly possible to build more sophisticated things
on a nanometer scale,” said Turberfield. “We’re at very early stages, but we’re feeling our way.”"

http://www.the-scien...s-Inch-Forward/

Edited by shadowhawk, 06 March 2013 - 10:47 PM.


#44 johnross47

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 10:58 AM

The use of DNA above seems fairly mechanical and doesn't involve any intelligence apart from that of the constructors. The code itself is not intelligent.

#45 shadowhawk

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 12:16 AM

The use of DNA above seems fairly mechanical and doesn't involve any intelligence apart from that of the constructors. The code itself is not intelligent.


1. Code is defined as the rules of communication between an encoder (a “writer” or “speaker”) and a decoder (a “reader” or “listener”) using agreed upon symbols.

2. DNA’s definition as a literal code (and not a figurative one) is nearly universal in the entire body of biological literature since the 1960 s. Science supports me.

3. DNA code has much in common with human language and computer languages.
As I have shown above intelligent being recognize it is better than anything we have had before.

4. DNA transcription is an encoding / decoding mechanism isomorphic with Claude Shannon’s 1948 model: The sequence of base pairs is encoded into messenger RNA which is decoded into proteins.

5. Information theory terms and ideas applied to DNA are not metaphorical, but in fact quite literal in every way. In other words, the information theory argument for design is not based on analogy at all. It is direct application of mathematics to DNA, which by definition is a code.

Is your saying it does not involve any intelligence backed up by an example of a non intelligent code? If so, what is it? Who/what are the intelligent, “constructors.?”

#46 johnross47

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 11:10 PM

  • the intelligent constructors above are pretty obvious really. I have had the feeling for some time that this just another attempt to build a typical logic abusing/ definition abusing pseudo argument for intelligent design.


#47 shadowhawk

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 12:31 AM

  • the intelligent constructors above are pretty obvious really. I have had the feeling for some time that this just another attempt to build a typical logic abusing/ definition abusing pseudo argument for intelligent design.


I know you can call names and avoid saying anything meaningful by stuff like this. I was looking for examples of the obvious. Here is how Naturally occurring patterns differ from designs. It is obvious.

Naturally Occurring Patterns

Nature produces patterns by itself, with no help from a designer:

Weather: Hurricanes & Tornados
Snowflakes, Crystals, Stalagmites, Sand Dunes
Facials and Chaos

Everyday interactions of matter & energy produce these things

Designs

Always based on language & symbols

Plans: Music, Maps, Instructions
Human languages: English, Chinese, Spanish
Computer languages: HTML, JPG,C++, TCP/IP, USB
DNA

Always require a designer
Designs always contain patterns, but natural patterns never contain designs or symbols. There is a vast chasm between the most complex natural pattern and the simplest design. All designs start with symbolic representation of ideas through a code, which is always designed by a mind.

Edited by shadowhawk, 13 March 2013 - 12:36 AM.


#48 johnross47

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 04:23 PM

I don't see any name calling here.....deprecatory remarks about the quality of creationist arguments, but no names.

"3. DNA code has much in common with human language and computer languages.
As I have shown above intelligent being recognize it is better than anything we have had before"

Not sure at all what you mean by this

As usual you have a pre-planned process in mind when you start what looks, initially, like an interesting question, but it soon becomes clear that any answers other than the ones you want will be insulted. You really would get on better if you didn't talk to people like a bad tempered intolerant teacher.

I see nothing in DNA which I would recognise as intelligence. It carries out no thought processes. It arrives at its sub-optimal solutions by trial and error......mostly error. It is complex and big but chemically mechanical. The fact that somebody can use it to write memory does not give it anything more than the features of an alphabet. (A very short alphabet....the only shorter one I know is binary.) There is a great deal of work going on right now, into primitive and pre forms of DNA and RNA and the likely/possible steps of their evolution. The fact that we don't yet understand it does not give us the right to make up fairy tales about it.

..

#49 shadowhawk

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 07:50 PM

I don't see any name calling here.....deprecatory remarks about the quality of creationist arguments, but no names.

"3. DNA code has much in common with human language and computer languages.
As I have shown above intelligent being recognize it is better than anything we have had before"

Not sure at all what you mean by this

As usual you have a pre-planned process in mind when you start what looks, initially, like an interesting question, but it soon becomes clear that any answers other than the ones you want will be insulted. You really would get on better if you didn't talk to people like a bad tempered intolerant teacher.

I see nothing in DNA which I would recognise as intelligence. It carries out no thought processes. It arrives at its sub-optimal solutions by trial and error......mostly error. It is complex and big but chemically mechanical. The fact that somebody can use it to write memory does not give it anything more than the features of an alphabet. (A very short alphabet....the only shorter one I know is binary.) There is a great deal of work going on right now, into primitive and pre forms of DNA and RNA and the likely/possible steps of their evolution. The fact that we don't yet understand it does not give us the right to make up fairy tales about it.

..


1. DNA is a better as a code than anything we have come up with and we are intelligent. In fact everything we are (intelligence) comes from the pre-planned code. If not, where did it come from?

2. As you can see, I pre-planned this response. So what. Obviously you didn’t your responses are due to random chance far more likely to be in error than not.

3. Did you have a bad experience with a teacher that you are now projecting off on me? I haven’t insulted you. This empty claim by you, is off subject and little more than name calling.. Nonsense.

4. Do you see anything in the alphabet that you recognize has a intelligent source? Does something being mechanical mean it has no intelligent source? How is that? Does the short Binary code have a intelligent source? What tells it how to do things like send information with codes? Tell me how it works without intelligence..

5. “Fairy tales.” More name calling, and so on subject and scientific. And you are insulted! There is a great deal of research going on about DNA, but they should ask you because you can separate the fairy tales from the truth before the work is done. And who asked for the right to make up such tales? You didn’t make that answer up, did you.

#50 N.T.M.

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 11:28 PM

If you can provide an empirical example of a code or language that occurs naturally do so because my view is that no code occurs only naturally.


I'm sure this won't be too helpful, but I read a book once that referred to an example where bacteria eventually acquired a handful of genetic mutations that were necessary to use an alternate food source, a source which happened to be the most abundant of several (this, of course, was under laboratory conditions). What made this remarkable is that the effect could only take place if all the requisite mutations were present. Needless to say, once the bacteria were able to utilize this new food source, they dominated over the other progenies.

This is an example where natural selection is the only guiding force behind the development of a genetic code, one which in this case codes for the metabolism of a different food.

It's been years since I've read about it, but a simple Google search should produce the experiment quickly.

#51 shadowhawk

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 12:23 AM

If you can provide an empirical example of a code or language that occurs naturally do so because my view is that no code occurs only naturally.


I'm sure this won't be too helpful, but I read a book once that referred to an example where bacteria eventually acquired a handful of genetic mutations that were necessary to use an alternate food source, a source which happened to be the most abundant of several (this, of course, was under laboratory conditions). What made this remarkable is that the effect could only take place if all the requisite mutations were present. Needless to say, once the bacteria were able to utilize this new food source, they dominated over the other progenies.

This is an example where natural selection is the only guiding force behind the development of a genetic code, one which in this case codes for the metabolism of a different food.

It's been years since I've read about it, but a simple Google search should produce the experiment quickly.


We discussed this at length a couple of years ago here. I don’t remember the details. I will try to find some data so I can refresh my memory. I can’t remember the name of the study. Thanks.

DNA is important to this discussion but this is not the topic unless you consider DNA a code. That would make your example stronger. I consider DNA a code. Does it take intelligence to explain the information it contains?

#52 johnross47

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 12:35 AM

I don't see any name calling here.....deprecatory remarks about the quality of creationist arguments, but no names.

"3. DNA code has much in common with human language and computer languages.
As I have shown above intelligent being recognize it is better than anything we have had before"

Not sure at all what you mean by this

As usual you have a pre-planned process in mind when you start what looks, initially, like an interesting question, but it soon becomes clear that any answers other than the ones you want will be insulted. You really would get on better if you didn't talk to people like a bad tempered intolerant teacher.

I see nothing in DNA which I would recognise as intelligence. It carries out no thought processes. It arrives at its sub-optimal solutions by trial and error......mostly error. It is complex and big but chemically mechanical. The fact that somebody can use it to write memory does not give it anything more than the features of an alphabet. (A very short alphabet....the only shorter one I know is binary.) There is a great deal of work going on right now, into primitive and pre forms of DNA and RNA and the likely/possible steps of their evolution. The fact that we don't yet understand it does not give us the right to make up fairy tales about it.

..


1. DNA is a better as a code than anything we have come up with and we are intelligent. In fact everything we are (intelligence) comes from the pre-planned code. If not, where did it come from?

2. As you can see, I pre-planned this response. So what. Obviously you didn’t your responses are due to random chance far more likely to be in error than not.

3. Did you have a bad experience with a teacher that you are now projecting off on me? I haven’t insulted you. This empty claim by you, is off subject and little more than name calling.. Nonsense.

4. Do you see anything in the alphabet that you recognize has a intelligent source? Does something being mechanical mean it has no intelligent source? How is that? Does the short Binary code have a intelligent source? What tells it how to do things like send information with codes? Tell me how it works without intelligence..

5. “Fairy tales.” More name calling, and so on subject and scientific. And you are insulted! There is a great deal of research going on about DNA, but they should ask you because you can separate the fairy tales from the truth before the work is done. And who asked for the right to make up such tales? You didn’t make that answer up, did you.


I'm going to ask you to take this as an honest question with good motives, though past experience suggests this may be a waste of time; are you dislexic? One of my sons, now a post-doc researcher, is dislexic and your posts look very similar in their incoherence. There is the same sense of a message scrambled by mixed up processes.

Ignoring the incoherent structure and atttending as far as possible to the content, 1) is devoid of implication. 3+ billion years of evolution has produced a complex code. But it still isn't intelligent, merely "mechanical". What evidence do you have for it being pre-planned? Apart from trying unsuccessfully to satirise what I said, what is the point of saying pre-planned. When I said pre-planned I meant that I suspected that you had a definition already worked out and you were hoping to steer contributers towards it, and that your definition was constructed to suit a creationist agenda.The procession of definitions was constructed to lead to a particular conclusion. Most of the logical steps concealed in the sequence of definitions are nonsense.

My experience of teachers is as varied as the next person's. Some good and some nasty sarcastic intolerant bigots.

I haven't said that binary code works without intelligence. I have said that the intelligence is that of the creators of the code. When DNA is used by humans to store information they are using their intelligence to take a chemical structure and reshape it to their needs. The chemical structure itself is not intelligent.

Your fifth point is so incoherent that only the emotional content comes through.

#53 shadowhawk

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 08:09 PM

If you can provide an empirical example of a code or language that occurs naturally do so because my view is that no code occurs only naturally.


I'm sure this won't be too helpful, but I read a book once that referred to an example where bacteria eventually acquired a handful of genetic mutations that were necessary to use an alternate food source, a source which happened to be the most abundant of several (this, of course, was under laboratory conditions). What made this remarkable is that the effect could only take place if all the requisite mutations were present. Needless to say, once the bacteria were able to utilize this new food source, they dominated over the other progenies.

This is an example where natural selection is the only guiding force behind the development of a genetic code, one which in this case codes for the metabolism of a different food.

It's been years since I've read about it, but a simple Google search should produce the experiment quickly.


I just had it pop into my mind. The scientist was Lenski and his long term study of E, Coli. We discussed it. I will do a search and see if I can find it.

#54 shadowhawk

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 08:18 PM

I don't see any name calling here.....deprecatory remarks about the quality of creationist arguments, but no names.

"3. DNA code has much in common with human language and computer languages.
As I have shown above intelligent being recognize it is better than anything we have had before"

Not sure at all what you mean by this

As usual you have a pre-planned process in mind when you start what looks, initially, like an interesting question, but it soon becomes clear that any answers other than the ones you want will be insulted. You really would get on better if you didn't talk to people like a bad tempered intolerant teacher.

I see nothing in DNA which I would recognise as intelligence. It carries out no thought processes. It arrives at its sub-optimal solutions by trial and error......mostly error. It is complex and big but chemically mechanical. The fact that somebody can use it to write memory does not give it anything more than the features of an alphabet. (A very short alphabet....the only shorter one I know is binary.) There is a great deal of work going on right now, into primitive and pre forms of DNA and RNA and the likely/possible steps of their evolution. The fact that we don't yet understand it does not give us the right to make up fairy tales about it.

..


1. DNA is a better as a code than anything we have come up with and we are intelligent. In fact everything we are (intelligence) comes from the pre-planned code. If not, where did it come from?

2. As you can see, I pre-planned this response. So what. Obviously you didn’t your responses are due to random chance far more likely to be in error than not.

3. Did you have a bad experience with a teacher that you are now projecting off on me? I haven’t insulted you. This empty claim by you, is off subject and little more than name calling.. Nonsense.

4. Do you see anything in the alphabet that you recognize has a intelligent source? Does something being mechanical mean it has no intelligent source? How is that? Does the short Binary code have a intelligent source? What tells it how to do things like send information with codes? Tell me how it works without intelligence..

5. “Fairy tales.” More name calling, and so on subject and scientific. And you are insulted! There is a great deal of research going on about DNA, but they should ask you because you can separate the fairy tales from the truth before the work is done. And who asked for the right to make up such tales? You didn’t make that answer up, did you.


I'm going to ask you to take this as an honest question with good motives, though past experience suggests this may be a waste of time; are you dislexic? One of my sons, now a post-doc researcher, is dislexic and your posts look very similar in their incoherence. There is the same sense of a message scrambled by mixed up processes.

Ignoring the incoherent structure and atttending as far as possible to the content, 1) is devoid of implication. 3+ billion years of evolution has produced a complex code. But it still isn't intelligent, merely "mechanical". What evidence do you have for it being pre-planned? Apart from trying unsuccessfully to satirise what I said, what is the point of saying pre-planned. When I said pre-planned I meant that I suspected that you had a definition already worked out and you were hoping to steer contributers towards it, and that your definition was constructed to suit a creationist agenda.The procession of definitions was constructed to lead to a particular conclusion. Most of the logical steps concealed in the sequence of definitions are nonsense.

My experience of teachers is as varied as the next person's. Some good and some nasty sarcastic intolerant bigots.

I haven't said that binary code works without intelligence. I have said that the intelligence is that of the creators of the code. When DNA is used by humans to store information they are using their intelligence to take a chemical structure and reshape it to their needs. The chemical structure itself is not intelligent.

Your fifth point is so incoherent that only the emotional content comes through.


So you are saying there is no such thing as an intelligent code. The intelligence is provided by a mind outside the code.

The rest of thiks is more of your junk. Ho humm - not interested and off topic.
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#55 shadowhawk

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 10:16 PM

If you can provide an empirical example of a code or language that occurs naturally do so because my view is that no code occurs only naturally.


I'm sure this won't be too helpful, but I read a book once that referred to an example where bacteria eventually acquired a handful of genetic mutations that were necessary to use an alternate food source, a source which happened to be the most abundant of several (this, of course, was under laboratory conditions). What made this remarkable is that the effect could only take place if all the requisite mutations were present. Needless to say, once the bacteria were able to utilize this new food source, they dominated over the other progenies.

This is an example where natural selection is the only guiding force behind the development of a genetic code, one which in this case codes for the metabolism of a different food.

It's been years since I've read about it, but a simple Google search should produce the experiment quickly.


I just had it pop into my mind. The scientist was Lenski and his long term study of E, Coli. We discussed it. I will do a search and see if I can find it.


Here is the section where we started discussing the E. Coli studies. http://www.longecity...450#entry492250

The discussion goes on for some time. Read it and we can continue because I found more data since then.

#56 johnross47

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Posted 15 March 2013 - 11:55 AM

I think I have actually addressed all the substance in this question; the question is question begging in that it assumes the idea of an intelligent code is coherent to begin with. It appears not to be. As usual when somebody gives a sensible answer that does not suit you, you resort to the ho hum not interested reply. You have never, in all my time on this forum, given a reasoned reply to any point I have made. Don't bother to reply;I won't be reading it; you will be left shouting your childish abuse, on your own, in the dark, as usual.

#57 shadowhawk

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 01:06 AM

I think I have actually addressed all the substance in this question; the question is question begging in that it assumes the idea of an intelligent code is coherent to begin with. It appears not to be. As usual when somebody gives a sensible answer that does not suit you, you resort to the ho hum not interested reply. You have never, in all my time on this forum, given a reasoned reply to any point I have made. Don't bother to reply;I won't be reading it; you will be left shouting your childish abuse, on your own, in the dark, as usual.

Evidence for above, is in the posts. Have a good day. :sleep:

The intelligence is provided by a mind outside the code? Noticed you didn't answer that.

Edited by shadowhawk, 16 March 2013 - 01:18 AM.





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