20 replies to this topic

[CrazyIguana]

Is it safe to take Noopept and Piracetam at the same time?

[Adaptogen]

do it

[Verne]

Is it safe to take Noopept and Piracetam at the same time?

I would say it's safe according to what we know about both Piracetam and Noopept.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/12025790

I'll be taking Noopept 25mg in conjunction with 9.6g of Piracetam when my noopept arrives.

Edited by Verne, 14 February 2013 - 12:53 AM.

[CrazyIguana]

No problems so far! I guess that's not the best way to approach this, but given their reputations in regards to toxicity it can't be too bad.

[CrazyIguana]

I have some very interesting news. Today I decided to not take my Noopept, but still took my Piracetam and Choline.

It turns out, from my experience so far, these two Nootropics are HIGHLY SYNERGISTIC, which, after reading the following may sound like an understatement.

Originally I wrote out a detailed explanation of what I experienced, but I decided for my public image on this forum to keep it very limited, but to try and convey these effects without sounding totally crazy.

In a gist, yesterday I was contemplating a unified theory of everything. I won't go into any more detail, as I will sound Psychotic. Which I am not, and all effects are gone today.

The thing is, today I was not able to have the fluid creativity and pure genius I was experiencing yesterday, it is very surreal, and is why I think the ethics of Noortopics NEED to be discussed.

I know this claim seems to be outlandish, but it really happened. Tomorrow I will continue the use of Noopept, Piracetam, and Choline and will report their effects.

So, I want to leave you with these questions:
Are Nootropics ethical in that you are enhancing yourself beyond your natural limits, and are your "ideas" truly yours?
Theoretically, if there were a Nootropic that would make you a genius many times over, is this ethical and what are its implications?

I know it's probably frowned upon to reference the movie Limitless, but I feel that movie touches on the question of ethics of superior Nootropics (or the holy grail of Nootropics). What do you think?

Edited by CrazyIguana, 20 February 2013 - 06:40 AM.

[Mr. Pink]

as long as you're not hurting yourself or others, there's no ethics issue. of course the ideas are yours. to whom else could they belong? drugs can't reason.

but here's the question - are you hurting yourself or others? are you truly becoming a genius, or merely having delusions of grandure (not saying you are, but in theory, on a high end nootropic or something)? are you hurting your mental health? approaching psychosis or mania? and if you are, could you hurt other people?

i feel the same way about steroids or regulations for race cars. I feel like there's nothing wrong with pushing the envelope in and of itself. the problem is those things are dangerous and then they encourage other people to push further, endangering themselves and others, to compete with you.

with noots, the topic might be moot altogether since the possible enhancement is very subtle in reality. i would be happy to just have a slightly better memory. mine's so bad i can watch the same movies over and over, wondering how they will end every time.

[Adaptogen]

mania can be a beautiful thing, just be careful not to lose sight of yourself

[CrazyIguana]

I realize the severity of this issue and have decided to take action by stopping my Noopept dosage all together, and also halving my daily Piracetam dosage.

As to my ideas yesterday, I think it would probably be best if I forget about them due to my demanding academic schedule and will keep focused on my studies and normal social activities.

[Adaptogen]

what dosages were you taking?

[CrazyIguana]

I was taking 4.8grams of Piracetam two times a day with 250mg CDP Choline (also twice a day). As for Noopept I was taking either 10 mg twice a day or 15mg twice a day, to vary dosing. But never above 30mg. After further review, I believe I was experiencing a hypomanic episode.

Although, upon research into hypomania, it appears that it isn't inherently bad if you can maintain your normal life style while being creative. It definitely wasn't full blown mania as I was able to also live my life normally (and safely with regards to myself and others) with the addition of this experience. Also, I think it's worthy to note that most geniuses exhibit symptoms of hypomania. I know this seems, or even may be, me trying to come to terms with the situation at hand, but could there be a strong link between "mania" and intelligence? Is mania a result of high intelligence, or visa-versa? Albert Einstein, Steve Jobs, Mark Zuckerberg, ect.... are all examples of people who show clear symptoms of mania/hypomania, without the pitfalls of it.

As for me, I have never been depressed and show only positive signs of hypomania. The idea I had was founded in real math (pretty simple multivariate calculus) and I came up with while working on a independent study of cellular automata (computer science), which means it is provable and isn't a bottomless idea, which also leads me to believe it was really a stroke of genius, not empty madness.

Any thoughts on the course of action I should take would be greatly appreciated.


Interesting TEDtalk on this subject:

Commercial from Steve Jobs that resonates with the topic:

Edited by CrazyIguana, 20 February 2013 - 05:31 PM.

[Adaptogen]

Honestly, if the mania is sustainable and you are capable of controlling it, I see no real problem with it. However, I think in general the mania subsides after a few doses/days. In the past there have been some kind of infamous people on the forum that went manic and delusional, and to maintain this state they had to ingest enormous amounts of piracetam (40+ grams a day).
A few people on here try to induce mania for the sole purpose of enhanced energy, motivation, and creativity. It supposedly comes from low acetylcholine levels, high norepinephrine, and possibly hypoglycemia. I presume caffeine and other stimulants can act as a catalyst to this state.

There is certainly a link between mental 'illness' and genius, a fact that I rather like. Here are a few interesting articles I have read in the past couple days
http://www.stanford....ign/Sussman.pdf
http://mentalfloss.c...ental-disorders
http://www.scientifi...-unleashed-mind

[CrazyIguana]

Very good information, thank you. But I am still left with some questions for you.

if the mania is sustainable and you are capable of controlling it, I see no real problem with it.

Is this healthy though, and what are the consequences of this?

It supposedly comes from low acetylcholine levels, high norepinephrine, and possibly hypoglycemia. I presume caffeine and other stimulants can act as a catalyst to this state.

Low Acetylcholine levels: I am taking supplements and eat a healthy diet that has natural sources of good quality choline, how could they be low?
High Norepinephrine: Is this dangerous to keep high, since it is also a hormone?
Hypoglycemia: I have plenty of good quality sugar with my healthy and balanced diet, how could this be so? Also, is there an easy way to test for this?

Finally, is it possible that the Noopept and Piracetam are interacting in such a way that it causes the above conditions, and, chemically, is it safe to take the two together?



Today I decided to not take ANYTHING. Not even my Omega supplement or multivitamin. Would you suggest continued use of Piracetam/Noopept/CDP Choline, based on your past experience, with yourself and observations of others?

Also, I have had a slight headache all day, any ideas?

[Adaptogen]

I don't think there are any directly negative physical effects from mania. Agitation and over-excitation can occur, but if your heart rate is relatively normal then I don't think there is anything to worry about. You could try supplementing with magnesium or taurine to naturally relax during a state like this.
High norepinephrine could be a problem if it were occurring constantly, but occasionally I don't think there is any risk. The euphoria, motivation, and delusions of grandeur all come from a surge of dopamine.

If someone has a history of schizophrenia I would not recommend continuing a substance that gives them mania due to the dopamine increase, but I personally have never seen anything bad happen to manic people on this forum. Other than losing sight of reality. As long as you have a stable enough mind and are not a danger to yourself/others, then there should be no problem.

slight headache would usually indicate too little choline levels. I'm not sure why you would be deficient if you are supplementing from diet and cdp, but you could try a larger amount and see if that helps. It seems that some people just naturally need more choline than others.

I personally would continue using the supplements. I've gotten mania once or twice before and I actually enjoy it..sadly, the effects subsided after just a few days usage. I imagine through either lowering your dosages, or just continuing your regiment that the manic state will eventually subside on its own.

[jadamgo]

If we can keep the distinction between mania and hypomania going, that would help the discussion immensely. (Even though it's somewhat of a flawed distinction, it still makes things easier if we can have one word for the "helpful in-and-of-itself" kind of mania and a separate word for the "necessarily harmful" kind of mania.)

People with hyperthymic temperaments, who are naturally inclined to mild hypomanic behaviors and feelings as a background feature of their normal personality, are known for their mental quickness, high productivity, high sex drive, domineering/controlling tendencies, good senses of humor, increased risk of substance abuse (usually stimulants and/or anxiolytics), strong capacity for denial, charisma, and the rest of the mixed basket that is hypomania.

Is there anything inherently neurotoxic about a sustained mild hypomanic state? No. Is there anything inherently psychologically damaging about it? No, in fact, it usually increases resilience -- though not always by enhancing the more mature coping mechanisms. Hypomanic people are great at blaming, yelling, denying, sexualizing, overdramatizing, and self-aggrandizing.

What it really comes down to is this: how sustainable is this hypomanic state? If you come down out of it, do you come back down to normal euthymia, or does it provoke a dip into depression? During the hypomania, how skillfully can you function in the tasks of work, self-care, and the various forms of love? Do you still perceive yourself mostly accurately, or are you prone to spinning a bit out of control into manic states?

Hopefully you won't just speedily go through this list of questions with quick, ready answers; they're better responded to with some serious thought, and consideration of the possibility that your gut feeling might be distorted.

As for more pragmatic questions, there's pretty much never a reason to discontinue multivitamins, omega-3 fatty acids, healthy sleeping habits, and other such things that are obviously good for you under any circumstance. And as for the noopept + piracetam combination... well, if you decide to try and find a way to sustain the hypomania, know that the more mild it is, the longer it lasts and the less likely it is to crash. Anything that ever feels like spinning out of control, or seems in retrospect like that's what happened, is way too far out there. It would be best to cut dosage at that point.

Also, piracetam does best with 3x daily dosage instead of 2x daily.

[Heh]

Mania can be physically dangerous (brain damage). If you are experiencing the positives of mania without the damage (etc), then there's no real problem. As for the ethics of nootropics, what you are dreaming up while taking them is truly yours, unless someone starts putting their BS in your head, or you start copying while BS'ing that what you are producing is your own.

Before this ordeal began, I would have steady bursts of extreme creativity, energy, and drive (in a life otherwise filled with procrastination and misery from the stupidity all around me), and I would literally live for these moments. I haven't had one of these that seemed legit in a long time, but anything worth mentioning that I've done in life has happened during these periods. Drug free, supplement free, and disorder free. If these nootropics eventually allow me to sustain, extend, or make more frequent these profound moments without side effects, then I'll never stop taking them.

[Neal Cullum]

Crazylguana, please keep posting here with updates on how its going. I have piracetam, noopept, cdp choline and omega 3 and i'm experimenting dosages trying to find a 'sweet spot' if there is one. I'm mainly aiming for less social anxiety and more concentration so i can study and not get easily distracted.

[CrazyIguana]

Sorry I haven't posted in a while - last week was hell, I think I got 10 hours of sleep from last Friday (2/22) to yesterday.

I just wanted to post to let you guys know everything is going well, and I haven't run into any more issues.

I've been taking 2.4 grams of Piracetam twice a day and Noopept 10mg twice a day as well (which is what is recommended by the Russian company that developed Noopept, I'm not sure where 30mg came from, contrary to popular usage).

More or less, after taking it almost a solid three weeks, while varying dosage to find the best for me, I can say I think I've hit on the 'sweet spot' as you said Neal. The effects are subtle, which isn't a bad thing. Too strong, like I had happen to me, can get scary to say the least - I'm still fleshing out my hypomania experience as it radically opened up new areas of thought for me.

Neal, to begin with, I'm not a socially anxious person, so my input may be bias, but I do seem more intuitive when I interact socially and definitely have more confidence.

It seems Noopept provides more concentration benefits as apposed to Piracetam, from my experience at least. Noopept and Piracetam synergize really well for me, and provide me with undivided attention and a heightened state of genuinely new ideas. As a computer science major, my work revolves around problem solving in abstract situations, and the Noopept+Piracetam's effects are noticeable. This last week I had to make a judgement call to not study for a test or sleep for the first time in 48 hours, I choose to sleep, and took the test the next day and figured out the material while I was taking it.

I've been taking 250mg of CDP Choline with my doses twice a day, even though this is less than recommended (where's the research behind excessive Choline intake?). My ideology behind this is that if you drown your brain with too much Choline, it will down regulate acytlcholine production; therefore, taking only the recommended amount each day is needed. In time, your brain will up-regulate acytlcholine production as a result of not enough (due to more need for it because of more neuronal activity), this will provide you with less of a Choline supplement $bill$, as that can get costly if you take way too much, and also, you won't have a crash if you stop taking it cold turkey (which, I've read, happens to a lot of people who do take too much and then stop all together. Then they blame it on Piracetam and claim that it damaged their brain - WRONG, they simply down-regulated acytlcholine production as a result of over supplementation and when they stopped there wasn't enough acytlcholine production for baseline activity)

[chris106]

Very interesting report, CrazyIguana!

I started noopept myself (one week so far) with choline-bitatrate, and have trouble finding said sweet-spot. I took up to 50 mag of noopept one day, which was way too much.

Today I started adding piracetam to the mix (1.2g so far). For the next week I will go with max. 20mg noopept, 4.8g piracetam and 250mg choline-b as well as 250mg alcar daily.
Will report back how that goes, I think it's allways interesting to see how different people are effected by the same substances...

[jadamgo]

All this talk about noopept makes me want to try some... CrazyIguana, have you tried adding any other racetams into the mix? I'm a fan of aniracetam and oxiracetam, and I'm curious to know how they might synergize with noopept.

[tao95]

Is there any advantage of ALCAR+CDP choline (or ALCAR+Alpha-GPC) vs just Choline Bitartrate?

[hellbounddevildog]

All this sounds very interesting. Thanks for sharing the info guys. Trying noopept here soon and was planning on taking it with pramiracetam. First time taking nootropics so I'm excited to see what the results will be.