31 replies to this topic

[Doktor]

This is my first post as a new member here, and I just want to say... THANK YOU.

A little about me:

I have always struggled with anxiety and depression. Looking back, I believe most of my depression was strongly lin ked to my anxiety. About a week before I went to University, I found my brother in his room deceased. He had died of an unknown cardiac condition (which we still don't know). Needless to say, this had a very negative impact on my mood/anxiety.

After attending University for a few years (computer science), the anxiety became much worse; It fueled me to eventually self-medicate with opiates. I have since gotten clean, and have been on SSRI medication for the anxiety (Lexapro and Prozac; currently Lexapro 10mg).

After reading this forum for ages, and trying L-Theanine (with little to know results), I decided to try Ashwagandha for my anxiety.

I am only on day 2, but WOW. I have a hard time believing this is placebo. My anxiety is pretty much gone right now. Having experience with benzos, I am not entirely sure whether this medication effects GABA (or just reduces Cortisol), but it DEFINITELY has noticeable effects, and does not sedate me at all.

I am using a naturopathic brand that is made/exported right from India, and I am fairly sure it is of high quality.

So... I cannot thank you all enough. I will continue to post my results on this board.

Just one question... Can I expect to gain tolerance to this supplement?

[machete234]

Tolerance withdrawal thread

http://www.longecity...-or-withdrawal/

In my experience it works on the GABA receptors but the withdrawal is mild, I also have used benzodiazepines like phenazepam and etizolam in the past and I completely stoppped since taking AWG

What brand do you use?

Edited by machete234, 17 February 2013 - 05:11 PM.

[Doktor]

Yeah, the more I notice it, the more it seems to be GABAergic; It is better imo though, since it does not sedate me at all.

I will have to take a look at the Brand when I get home tonight; It is some obscure natural brand, and says "Product of India" on the bottle, which is what sold me. Unfortunately, there was no standardized percentage on the bottle of actives, but it is definitely potent stuff regardless. I have been taking two 400mg capsules, once per day...

[jerichodotm]

Good luck trying to find what works for you. When you finally come across Phenibut and you will... run, don't walk away from it.

[Doktor]

Good luck trying to find what works for you. When you finally come across Phenibut and you will... run, don't walk away from it.

I may be new on the forums here, but I'm not at all new to the world of noots and supplements. I know all about phenibut, picamillon, and most of the other GABAergic "supplements" that exist. Like I said, I also have experience with most Benzodiazepines that are in circulation in Canada. I am only interested in sustainabl treatments for anxiety atm, and phenibut especially is NOT sustainable, so I will not be partaking in it.

I am now on day three of Ashwagandha treatment, and things are still going very well. From what I have been reading on here, tolerance (and resulting withdrawal) seems fairly negligible with Ash... so whether placebo is contributing to it's effects or not, I will continue to use it until I come across some concrete findings proving that it has negative repercussions.

Do you personally have experience with Ash? I honestly believed that homeopathy was complete bullshit until I started using it... it has completely changed my opinion, which does not happen often.

Thank you for the heads up, btw.

[Doktor]

For what it's worth, here is some more background on me (to put my experience in complete perspective):

- I currently take 10mg of Lexapro daily (I am weening off, as SSRI medication doesn't do anything but dull my emotions).
- I drink one coffee each morning, and sometimes a second one around 2:00-3:00pm.
- I am prescribed 40mg Vyvanse and take it each day (it occasionally causes me anxiety, but the Ashwagandha is actually synergising with it beautifully)
- Occasionally, when my physical anxiety (my main manifestation of anxiety) gets especially bad, I will take 20mg of Nadolol (a non-selective beta blocker)

I have doubts as to Ashwagandha's main method of action being Gabamimetic. I honestly think that it's main (if not only) function is a potent regulation of cortisol. I believe that my physical anxiety (which feeds my depression) is mainly caused by my tendency to stress about everything to a ridiculous degree, therefore increasing my cortisol levels to unruly proportions. The Ash seems to bring them down to regular levels, and thus causes me tremendous relief of both my physical anxiety and depression. Of course, this is entirely anecdotal.

I have also noticed that the Ashwagandha seems to take between an hour or two to start effecting my stress level. I find myself contemplating whether or not I am getting placebo effects on my anxiety during this period, but always notice a distinct "hushing" effect on my brain once it kicks in... It's hard to explain really. It's almost like a slight heavy feeling in my head, almost a sort of mental sedation, but without physical sedation, or loss of mental clarity/acuity... It basically just calms my obsessive and scattered thoughts (which are definitely tied to my ADD).

It would be interesting if the people (who are claiming benefit from Ash) would post in detail about themselves like I have above, so we could cross-reference all the data and possibly derive a more accurate hypothesis on Ash's main method of action...

[Doktor]

Oh, and FYI, the brand I am using is called Organic India; I am fairly sure it's not an extract, but it's straight from India, and REEKS of wet horse, so I'm fairly certain it's pretty potent lol.

[Doktor]

Alright, here is an overdue update.

I was beginning to dread (a few days ago) that my experience up until this point was placebo. This is not the case. The last few days, I forgot to take my Ash, and my anxiety went right back to normal levels. I actually didn't realize this until later today; I ran out of my Vyvanse prescription early, and was feeling restless and irritable all day long. So, as soon as I got home (an hour ago), I popped 3 caps of Ash (approx. 1200mg of my non-extract preparation.

What a difference! My anxiety and mood have improved remarkably in the past hour. I just had a smoke, which usually causes me a good deal of anxiety when I am already irritated; No issues what-so-ever. This herb is magnificent, and I am convinced that it has tremendous potential now.

Interesting to note; I have a very mild headache now, which seemed to appear as the effects took hold of me. Could this be correlated? Could this possibly be indicative of any specific pharma-kinetic properties that Ashwagandha possesses?

My faith in this herb is at 100% at the moment; I will continue daily doses of it - as well as experimenting with combinations - for the foreseeable future, and I will post my updates in this thread.

If you are on the fence with this one, do yourself a favor; dive in head first, and experiment with various doses. There is something going on here that we don't fully grasp yet...

[sam7777]

get yourself some magnesium oil gel applicable or transdermal. Gotta have magnesium, in these cases. Yes ashwagandha is almost miracle like in regards to how it affects the body. I reccomend Tulsi, schizandra, magnolia, and phillodendron, and sour jujube also.

[Doktor]

Wow, looks like I have some research to do! I've heard of Magnesium and Schizandra, but not the rest.

I was looking at buying Magnesium Citrate the other day... but this is know to be a potent laxative... will that be an issue? Is there another more suitable form?

[machete234]

Gotta have magnesium, in these cases.

Is the magnesium meant to counter the head aches or why do yu recommend it?

[Nordmann]

What about some Kava Kava? I recently made a batch and put it on bottles. Not that I`m struggling with anxiety but I enjoy a cup now and then. It mixes nice with ashwagandha. It is calming and is supposed to have great effects on training. Aswaghanda on boosting testosterone and kava kava on muscle recovery. Be sure to buy real Kava powder only from root and not stems. Liquid form is better than caps. A quick search and I found this http://www.bodybuild...n/drobson70.htm

I see the Ashwaghanda testosterone study was on male infertillity, fertile not tested. hmm...

Edited by Anders Jonassen, 22 February 2013 - 06:14 PM.

[Templanoid]

What is your Ashwagandha dosage? How often do you take it? I have, lack of energy anxiety and mild depression issues and I've been trying various supplements but havent tried Ashwagandha.

[Doktor]

Gotta have magnesium, in these cases.

Is the magnesium meant to counter the head aches or why do yu recommend it?

He likely recommended Magnesium because it is a natural muscle relaxant, as well as an anxiolytic. I have yet to try it as a matter of fact...

What about some Kava Kava? I recently made a batch and put it on bottles. Not that I`m struggling with anxiety but I enjoy a cup now and then. It mixes nice with ashwagandha. It is calming and is supposed to have great effects on training. Aswaghanda on boosting testosterone and kava kava on muscle recovery. Be sure to buy real Kava powder only from root and not stems. Liquid form is better than caps. A quick search and I found this http://www.bodybuild...n/drobson70.htm

I see the Ashwaghanda testosterone study was on male infertillity, fertile not tested. hmm...

I'm neutral on Ash's testosterone boosting ability, and to be honest, am EXTREMELY skeptical of all natural testosterone boosters... especially advertised on Bodybuilding.com. So much bro science there it sickens me...

Also, I haven't tried Kava, as it is not sold in Canada... and I'd like to stick with herbs/supplements that i can buy locally for now. Have heard it's effective though.

What is your Ashwagandha dosage? How often do you take it? I have, lack of energy anxiety and mild depression issues and I've been trying various supplements but havent tried Ashwagandha.

I was in the same boat as you pretty much, until I tried Ashwagandha... it really seems to work, and in a non-sedative way as well which is great. My brand is very obscure, and is not an extract, but is straight from the herb and made in India, so it seems pretty legit.

I think you'd be best off searching these forums for dosing, brands, etc... You want an extract from a reputable brand, and to start off, I think most people titrate their doses up to around 800mg once or twice a day. If I were you, I'd play around with dosing once or twice a day, and slowly titrate up the dose to find what works for you. You don't want to use too much, or you may build up a tolerance to Ashwagandha's effects.

Edited by Doktor, 22 February 2013 - 07:06 PM.

[Nordmann]

There`s different between science and bro-science. But sure, I`m not taking it for that reason, but its nonetheless a possitive side effect. This is the study I`m referring to http://www.ncbi.nlm....ubmed/19501822. The bodybuilding link was only the first link on google search.

Kava is cheap and even crosses the border to Norway, and we have a strict custom.

[Doktor]

There`s different between science and bro-science. But sure, I`m not taking it for that reason, but its nonetheless a possitive side effect. This is the study I`m referring to http://www.ncbi.nlm....ubmed/19501822. The bodybuilding link was only the first link on google search.

Kava is cheap and even crosses the border to Norway, and we have a strict custom.

Oh, I agree with you 100% about the bro-science. I just remember that when I used to lurk the bodybuilding.com forums, people would find some obscure study on pubmed, and then claim about the game-changing benefits of some new supplement they had discovered... I think we can both agree that is not science lol. Even if you show me 5 studies that indicate chemical x has some specific effect, it still doesn't mean a thing to me until the anecdotal reports come piling in, or I see stacks of double-blind clinical test results with the same results. Lots of things look phenomenal on paper... ughh. Sorry, off topic.

Interesting study; The fact that it increases both serum testosterone and lutenizing hormone levels is intriguing... Although, for all intensive purposes, I believe it is the level of free testosterone that matters, not serum test. At least that is the case for bodybuilding purposes.

Here is my hypothesis; I believe that Ashwagandha is effectively regulating cortisol levels, and this is what is causing these hormonal changes in the infertile men. It is strongly believed that Ash regulates cortisol, and I am positive that high levels of the stress hormone would have a negative impact on fertility.

Personally, I would like to see this study repeated with 50% of test subjects with high cortisol, and 50% in the normal levels. It's almost impossible to avoid comfounding variables in studies such as this, where the mechanism(s) of the herb are not even close to being fully understood.

[sam7777]

When I got my T results back it was 1118 ng/dL from using the herbs. I don't know what it was before, probably high, but not so high. I grew a beard, I became hairy as hell it was unmistakeably the herbs.

Also tribulus terrestris and fenugreek both excellent for male hormones. Neither affect total T, but other aspects of the biochemistry leading to more hormone effect.

[Doktor]

When I got my T results back it was 1118 ng/dL from using the herbs. I don't know what it was before, probably high, but not so high. I grew a beard, I became hairy as hell it was unmistakeably the herbs.

Also tribulus terrestris and fenugreek both excellent for male hormones. Neither affect total T, but other aspects of the biochemistry leading to more hormone effect.

Really!? Which herbs? Obviously not fenugreek or Tribulus... Tongkat Ali? Ashwagandha?

[sam7777]

I think tongkat ali had a bit to do with it...but marginially and towards the end. It affected me no doubt, but the real big player was probably aswhagandha. I had started taking cordyceps, ginseng, rhodiola, and schizandra first for several months before the tongkat or ashwagandha or tribulus. So they probably are what the predominant effect was. Now mind you T biochem is complicated, total T doesnt indicate it all, you have DHT etc etc. So each of these herbs has a somewhat unique affect on male androgen metabolism.

The schizandra is just a panacea, it is amazing in my opinion. Cordyceps is something you really notice when working out. Rhodiola is not for everyone, it is very mentally stimulating.

My sex drive did in fact go up quite a bit I would say. It is hard to tell though now since I have mercury poisoning and CFS. The testosterone is all that is keeping me alive essentially. For someone with severe fatigue, you should have tons of viruses, colds, flue. I get none. Ever. That is T in action. And my sex drive is still pretty damn high, but I don't get much joy out of it. Mainly the brain issues caused by mercury. So I assume my T level stayed at 1100 or certainly quite high permanently.

Mind you the russians were using these herbs to cheat in the olympics back in the 60's. And I am sure that the europeans still use these herbs to dope and cheat. The NFL probably dopes and cheats with these herbs via their fancy sports nuetraceuticals.

So if I were a fully healthy person, which I am not, I would assume I would be extremely healthy and athletic and sex crazed beyond normalcy. I would expect that with such high T. But I haven't ever read about anyone having natural T as high as mine. It just isn't the same with false syn T, because they get shrunk balls, and have all sorts of mental issues and liver issues, can't sustain it. And I am not sure if the high T itself caused by syn T is what causes the health issues or if it is other side effects.

A lot of questions. I recommend you really read up on things before just going hog wild with the herbs. These herbs are best taken for 6 week or less and cycled off of. You develop a tolerance past a point anyways and that leads to a waste of money.

[leftside]

It was probably the Tongkat Ali (if you get the good stuff). Best herb I've ever taken. I cycle it 2 weeks on/1 week off. Not cheap though.... but one of the very few herbs I can feel (literally - in my groin lol).

[Strelok]

When I got my T results back it was 1118 ng/dL from using the herbs. I don't know what it was before, probably high, but not so high. I grew a beard, I became hairy as hell it was unmistakeably the herbs.

Also tribulus terrestris and fenugreek both excellent for male hormones. Neither affect total T, but other aspects of the biochemistry leading to more hormone effect.

I'm wondering if you could clarify and list in order from greatest to least which herbs you think most effectively boosted your testosterone levels.

Would you say:

Ashwagandha>Tongkat Ali>Schizandra>Fenugreek>Tribulus>Cordyceps?

[nootrope]

I'm also a big ashwagandha fan. I write about my experiments with supplements on my blog here, and ashwagandha is the one I've had the most success with and have taken, with some cycling, for about 5 years. I credit ashwagandha partly with my no longer needing to take medication for bipolar disorder.

I am also not sure about the roles of GABA mimetry and cortisol blocking. Someone here mentioned magnolia, and there is a patented herbal combination that includes magnolia bark called Relora, which is supposed to be comparable to ashwagandha in blocking cortisol. I've had some success with this too. Although some of the "rightness" of the initial relaxing effect of ashwagandha has worn off, I still find it to be a bulwark in my defense against mood disturbances.

One minor thing: you mention that before ashwagandha you never trusted "homeopathic" remedies... Well, in some circles, "homeopathy" specifically refers to the practice of diluting treatments to an absurd degree, and many of us who swear by ashwagandha still think homeopathy under that definition is bullshit.

[machete234]

It was probably the Tongkat Ali (if you get the good stuff). Best herb I've ever taken. I cycle it 2 weeks on/1 week off. Not cheap though.... but one of the very few herbs I can feel (literally - in my groin lol).

Looks like Id have a good suplier in my country but a daily dose would be like 0.7 euros or almost a us dollar.
By the wayTongkat ali means something like Ali's stick!

[nupi]

One minor thing: you mention that before ashwagandha you never trusted "homeopathic" remedies... Well, in some circles, "homeopathy" specifically refers to the practice of diluting treatments to an absurd degree, and many of us who swear by ashwagandha still think homeopathy under that definition is bullshit.

I would replace some circles with everywhere. Ashwaghanda is herbal medicine - a concept which definitely has a lot of backing around here (and anywhere where people have a slight idea about biochemistry)

[Doktor]

I'm also a big ashwagandha fan. I write about my experiments with supplements on my blog here, and ashwagandha is the one I've had the most success with and have taken, with some cycling, for about 5 years. I credit ashwagandha partly with my no longer needing to take medication for bipolar disorder.

I am also not sure about the roles of GABA mimetry and cortisol blocking. Someone here mentioned magnolia, and there is a patented herbal combination that includes magnolia bark called Relora, which is supposed to be comparable to ashwagandha in blocking cortisol. I've had some success with this too. Although some of the "rightness" of the initial relaxing effect of ashwagandha has worn off, I still find it to be a bulwark in my defense against mood disturbances.

One minor thing: you mention that before ashwagandha you never trusted "homeopathic" remedies... Well, in some circles, "homeopathy" specifically refers to the practice of diluting treatments to an absurd degree, and many of us who swear by ashwagandha still think homeopathy under that definition is bullshit.

One minor thing: you mention that before ashwagandha you never trusted "homeopathic" remedies... Well, in some circles, "homeopathy" specifically refers to the practice of diluting treatments to an absurd degree, and many of us who swear by ashwagandha still think homeopathy under that definition is bullshit.

I would replace some circles with everywhere. Ashwaghanda is herbal medicine - a concept which definitely has a lot of backing around here (and anywhere where people have a slight idea about biochemistry)

Huh, I never knew that. Right, so I guess homeopathy remains bullshit then.

I guess what I meant to say was that I never had faith in treating medical problems with products sold in the supplement ail (until now, that is). My prior experiences with natural alternative treatments were not at all impressive; What minor effects I seemed to experience could have easily been written off as placebo. Recently however, I began thinking of how many modern day medicines have been derived from traditional "natural" preparations, and this renewed my interest in alternative medicine. Then, when I saw the high number of glowing anecdotal reports online referring to Ashwagandha, I decided to give it a chance...

I'm very glad I did!

A little off topic, but my anxiety has been so lifted recently (minor GAD, with occasional break-through anxiety), that I have begun tapering my Escitalopram dosage... I will be switching to Wellbutrin in two weeks. My psychiatrist is the chief psychiatrist of the trauma ward at my local hospital (got very lucky), and he believes that Wellbutrin will go very well with my daily 30mg Vyvanse dose. I would have thought otherwise (seeing as they essentially work opposite one another), but I trust this man 100%; He believes that this combo will do a number on my Anhedonia and related depression. It will be interesting to see how the Ashwagandha handles the potential anxiogenic effects of this combination of medications. And yes, I do realize that Wellbutrin may be anti-cholinergic, but I am trying to quit smoking currently as well, so I thought I'd give it a go.

[Doktor]

Update (the Vyvanse I'm taking must be working a treat, as this is the longest I've ever kept up on a thread lmao):

So, four days ago I stopped taking Lexapro (20mg) cold turkey. The last two times I even tried to ween down on this medication, I ended up with high anxiety, depersonalization, the "brain-shocks"... you name it. This time, I jumped right off of my dose with no taper at all, and... My mood has remained completely stable, while my mental clarity and motivation has sky rocketed! I directly attribute this to the Ashwagandha; I still have bad brain shocks, which normally throw me into anxiety attacks, but I can just... deal with them. It's amazing.

Also, I started up on Wellbutrin today... Not sure if anyone has experience with this medication, but just after today, I think that Dopamine/Norepinephrine were the main culprits behind my mood (or lack there of). Today was the most positive day I have had in a long time, which I think is a combination of the Wellbutrin exerting it's NE/DA effects as well as the fog leaving from shit-alopram. I had actually tried Wellbutrin once in the past (a friends script, just out of curiosity), and it caused me great physical anxiety... today, I only felt the positive effects.

Honestly, this is likely the most unscientific research ever done, and at this point I do have a tremendous amount of bias towards Ashwagandha's effectiveness, but... anecdotal or not, the evidence just keeps piling up in favor of Ashwagandhas anxiolytic fortitude.

I think I'm going to stop updating this thread for now. Unless something unexpected happens, the summary of this thread isn't likely to change...

Ashwagandha is getting a big thumbs up from this guy .

[NFP]

is ashwagandha still working for you doktor?

[Godof Smallthings]

Do you personally have experience with Ash? I honestly believed that homeopathy was complete bullshit until I started using it... it has completely changed my opinion, which does not happen often.

Thank you for the heads up, btw.

Many thanks for the thread. I will try the ashwagandha brand you use, as I don't get such a clear effect from the one I use (Jarrow).

Sorry for the little nitpick to follow, no offense meant.

Homeopathy is not synonymous with herbal medicine. Homeopathy deals in miniscule amounts of substances, including toxins, and it has no support from clinical trials.

Herbs on the other hand, are a different ballpark. While many systems of herbal medicine, including Ayurveda, use explanation models of efficacy that do not rhyme with science, the actual effects of many traditionally used herbs are undeniable. Mainstream medicine also isolates compounds from herbs and turns them into mainstream pills. Since some 10-15 years back, Asian scientists are increasingly going through the herbs used in their traditional medicines and subjecting them to scientific testing. We live in interesting times.

There are many examples of isolated compounds from herbs having been turned into mainstream drugs; salicin (refined as acetylsalicylic acid, being the active substance in aspirin) is a very well-known example. (Salicin can be extracted from the bark of the white willow tree).

Many naturopaths would claim though, that isolating individual compounds upsets the balance normally provided by using the plant in its 'traditional' form, but the scientist counters and says that the presence of too many compounds causes greater risks of side effects and makes the medicine less suited to treat a particular disease or complaint.

Herbal medicine emphasizes a holistic outlook, mainstream medicine emphasizes specific, clear results.

Edited by Godof Smallthings, 28 May 2013 - 03:52 AM.

[Timothy]

It may sound silly but I found Ashwagandha good for hairloss/hair thinning. An unexpected benefit.

[hani]

Doktor, is Ash still helping?