69 replies to this topic

[Logic]

Effects of oral adsorbent AST-120 (Kremezin) on renal function and glomerular injury in early-stage renal failure of subtotal nephrectomized rats.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/12119481

As activated charcoal can absorb other supps; working out a dosing schedule is difficult.

[YOLF]

Hmmm, not sure how I would get him to take the charcoal. But it's not a bad idea. Would this better his prognosis?

[niner]

Hmmm, not sure how I would get him to take the charcoal. But it's not a bad idea. Would this better his prognosis?

If you could figure out what the right dose should be, then coerce him to eat it, maybe by mixing it in with food that he likes, then it should help, I'd think. I think that getting him to eat it would be the tricky part. (I think you need kind of a lot) If you had to use oral gavage, I don't think it would be worth it because of all the anxiety it would cause him.

[YOLF]

I'm definitely thinking oral gavages, even if only water should be a regular thing for animals so they are used to it... sorta like baths.

[YOLF]

Update:

Back to giving FB plain light OO. It's good for his coat. Dialysis continues, he seems to be vomitting less volume wise. I was also thinking for a few days that he might be getting worse as he stopped jumping onto the backs of chairs to get pet. This seems to be more a result of not wanting to be picked up cuz that means getting a needle and maybe even the horrible tasting C60 stuff. I still don't see him jumping on the backs of chairs, but I'll keep letting him know that we're not always asking so we can stick him with a needle. He's amazingly docile through it all... he doesn't even try to bite, he just complains, so he must trust us at least to some extent.

Edited by cryonicsculture, 12 April 2013 - 02:35 PM.

[YOLF]

Update:

FB fell off the table while trying to investigate what I was working on and hurt himself. I found that cats are given Glucosamine Chondroitin w/MSM and I have some pretty good stuff, so I snapped open a capsul and put half on his food. He was jumping up on stuff again and doing pretty good. Since I was putting stuff in his food I gave him 4 more drops of C60 and he got more dialysis.

It looks to me like he's doing pretty good and he's been pretty active. He's still not sleeping next to me anymore since giving him the dialysis needle :( But I think he's got some time left.

On the downside, he did lose his balance and I haven't known him to be clumsy.

As I type this, he just followed me into my workshop after I took pics and found a corner to nap in.

Other thoughts:
I've been reading that Chitosan is good for Kidney health and I've got it in my next vitamin order. Was surprised how much they are charging for pet supplements at 1800petmeds... I get the human dosages for less!

FB's happy, he's napping on my footrest now.

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[hav]

Suggest you do not administer chitosan in the same meal as c60. One of the things it does, similar to soluble fiber, is to absorb and eliminate fats from the digestive tract. I would be concerned that it would do the same for c60 adducts it encounters there. I try to take my fat soluble supplements a few hours before taking chitosan or fiber supplements to give them a head start on digestion and absorption.

Howard

[Logic]

There are some very interesting research leads here for kidney issues:
http://curezone.com/...m.asp?i=1233948

The good old Button Mushroom looks very interesting!

http://sciencelinks....300A0571470.php

http://www.google.co...iw=1366&bih=572

[YOLF]

Suggest you do not administer chitosan in the same meal as c60. One of the things it does, similar to soluble fiber, is to absorb and eliminate fats from the digestive tract. I would be concerned that it would do the same for c60 adducts it encounters there. I try to take my fat soluble supplements a few hours before taking chitosan or fiber supplements to give them a head start on digestion and absorption.

Howard

Thanks for the info. It shouldn't be much of a problem. I'll be giving him the chitosan daily and the C60 only once or twice a month when I see him starting to sleep more, so I'll just not give him the chitosan that day. Or is there more to it?

There are some very interesting research leads here for kidney issues:
http://curezone.com/...m.asp?i=1233948

The good old Button Mushroom looks very interesting!

http://sciencelinks....300A0571470.php

http://www.google.co...iw=1366&bih=572

Thanks,

I'll have to read up on these.

[YOLF]

Today I gave FB his third 4 days ago and just got around to finishing my post. I tried some new methods and it got messy, so I don't know how much he got, but he knew it was coming!

I first got a drop of it on my skin while transfering it from the main bottle to the cat bottle. He could smell it even as I got near him and he was sniffin around like a kitten. I rubbed this near his mouth and he immediately licked it a few times.

I then tried gavaging him. He didn't like it at all, this stuff must taste worse than the antibiotics he gets the same way cuz he wouldn't let me give it to him, I might have had a drop or two on his tongue but didn't get anywhere near his throat and he was struggling to escape it.

He didn't seem to be mad or anything afterwards. He's had enough medicine at this point in his life that I think he understands, I just don't understand why he's not easier to give medicine to...

Anyways, I think rubbing it on his fur near his mouth works pretty well as he was licking it quite a bit and might make the best method of delivery for a cat that I've found so far.

Aside from that he's doing pretty well for having CKD IMO. I'm not sure how long a cat usually lasts or what their condition is when they have CKD, but he looks healthy to me, his coat is soft/furry and he's still bathing regularly. He does all the things he usually does when he's happy and he jumps up on things to get closer to you when he feels like it. He doesn't look like he's dieing. He gets dialysis every 3 days and looks pretty healthy to me. His earlier improvements in physical abilities have remained and maybe even improved. He's always been a cuddly buddy type cat, but he seems to be even more so these days. If it's your day off, he's gunna scream at you till he gets at least an hour of your time for petting. Whether it's how he handles getting old or C60, I'm not sure.

I've also started giving him treats with glucosamin/chondriotin in fairly large doses (500mg of glucosamine is alot considering humans are supposed to take 1500mg. I was giving him around 375mg/day when I was mixing it in his food from my capsuls.

As I've mentioned to AgeViVo, he seems to to be healthiest and more energetic furthest from his C60 doses, but IMO gets better and more healthy with each dose. His vomits in much smaller amounts now too.

Other stuff:
His teeth aren't looking too good, he isn't eating much of anything he has to chew and mostly licks the gravy on his wet food. I have to break his vita kitty glucosamine/chondriotin up into little pieces for him or he won't eat them.

Edited by cryonicsculture, 09 May 2013 - 07:37 PM.

[YOLF]

I went 24 days without giving FB C60. In the extra time between doses he was vomitting alot more than usual. He also had a few hair balls come up. He didn't like getting it this time around. But his activity levels have shot up again. He's still been getting regular dialysis.

[YOLF]

FB has been getting his C60 on schedule, dialysis didn't gone so well today, so I'll give him the C60 tomorrow instead. I think I'm going to start doing the dialysis alone. The other person just gets too frustrated but has to be in control and keeps screwing up and getting hurt. The vet does it by herself, so I don't see why I should need help, though maybe training, I haven't done anything but hold him since learning how to do it at the vet.

Some changes in FB's lifestyle:
1. I was busy and skipped the May 15 dose some weeks back, and FB started upchucking more frequently until getting his June 2 dose. He's only had hair balls since. I've started brushing him more.
2. We've been putting him in the basement at night and he only has the vet food to eat for a few hours a day (though he still gets regular meals of the regular food the rest of the time). This has been going on for about a month.
3. After getting today's dose tomorrow, I'll be giving him C60 every Saturday instead of bi monthly as I'm certain he's not being harmed by it.
4. I'm alternating between putting it on his food and letting him clean it off him whiskers (something I've found very effect). After reading that some users where getting light headed and other side effects (possibly), I've decided to only give it by food and maybe gavage if I decide to buy some of those disposeable pipette droppers. Normally I'd clean them, but they don't come clean of oil with EVOO.

[YOLF]

FB did get his C60 on schedule the other day and had a tootsy roll density hair ball come out of him and then a much smaller hair ball a day or two later. Still no regular vomitting. Given the increase in strength and endurance that humans report and the lazyness of cats, I've been stimulating FB to play more. For about the last 2-3 years he hasn't been able to catch the cat fishing pole, he'd just swat hopelessly and lose interest. I repaired an old cat fishing pole that had fell into disuse and I can get him to play for about 40-60 minutes a day on an off. He's able to catch it like he was several years ago, I've even seen him do some of those cat twist acrobatics. I'm going to keep working out his back legs and wrestling him to see how high I can get him to jump. He's gone as high as 5-6 feet when he was about a year old (though he only did it a few times, so it must have hurt) and would regularly jump 3-4 until about 8. In the last few days he's been jumping around 2 feet. He's regained a considerable amount of speed too, he's able to catch my hand again where he wouldn't even bother the last few years. I'll try to take some vids in the next few days if I can manage the fishing pole and the camera at the same time.

[8bitmore]

I am dosing an old cat (16) that has been suffering from infections (and subsequent antibiotics use) with about a 2ml of 0.09mg/ml OOC60. I can clearly tell difference in appearance and energy/alertness levels after days where he has been fed (and so can, non-C60-informed, people that visit)

On the subject of feeding: I have no problem with it whatsoever: I simply mix the 2ml OOC60 with a tablespoon of pink salmon / tuna and a bit of warm water to make it easier for the cat to eat - he labs every single bit up. Also, since the fish is oily I guess this helps digest the compound further. I second Niner's opinion that using an oral gavage is likely to cause much undue stress (remember that human heart deaths oscillate with stress incurred when for example watching football, limiting stress is paramount to longevity)

Since I have currently run out I'm in the process of making a 0.36mg/ml OOC60 mix (only 3 days into it but colour is appreciatively deep ruby already, still particles visible to naked eye when using flashlight as expected)

Edited by 8bitmore, 21 June 2013 - 09:59 AM.

[hav]

FB did get his C60 on schedule the other day and had a tootsy roll density hair ball come out of him and then a much smaller hair ball a day or two later.

Sounds like the olive oil is helping the hair balls come up. I used to give one of my older cats Petromalt weekly for the same issue. Might be better at that job than olive oil and perhaps help minimize losing c60 along with the hair ball.

Howard

[YOLF]

I definitely need a better way to give him the C60, it's tough giving it to him like medicine and I never know how much he gets in his food.

The hair balls actually came out away from the C60 doses. I just forgot to brush him for a while.

[YOLF]

Good news and bad... Good news is that I took lots of videos of FB and just need to try remembering my youtube password for cryonicsculture SN on YT.

Bad news... FB started vomiting lots of liquid again and it doesn't look fur related at all, he's done this twice and the amount was pretty substantial. We haven't had a successful dialysis for a couple weeks now, though his scruff seems to be fine. I just can't seem to get control of the dialysis stuff... I've talked with my room mate and showed her some advice videos from youtube, so she's going to try that next time.

Perhaps I was getting too optimistic... He was between stages 3-4 by the time we took him to the Vet and found out he had a problem. Before that, he just looked like he was getting old. I'll have to re-evaluate my expectations...

I'm getting him some Salmon Oil and mixing up a probiotic supplement for him. He's been getting probiotics in his food for a long time, but it's a pretty incomplete one considering no acidiphilus... So adding some. The rest of the stuff they say to give cats is antioxidants, and I figure C60 should be sufficient in that department. Thoughts?

Also trying to give him some fruit. I've been watching videos of big cats eating watermelons and other fruits, so I'm thinking he might benefit from them if I can get him to eat them.

On the flip side, he's been alot more energetic since the vomiting, so maybe it's just a roadbump.

[YOLF]

FBs doing better and got more energetic after giving him his weekly C60 dose. No more puking and dialysis is going well. I put drops of the C60 on pounce treats and given that we've removed most of the protein from his diet finally, it doesn't look like he can resist. He's been hating on me though... I'm now that mean man with the needles and things that taste bad.

Salmon oil was ordered but was removed from my order due to an inventory glitch. Will be reordering.

Also interesting to note:

My neighbor's kid found 7 kittens drowning in my window well during a storm 5 days ago. The mother returned and took 3 of them from the garage but seems to have abandoned the rest. She appears to have been feral and there is a barn nearby. I've been bottle feeding them, but it seems I am allergic to them or have caught something from them so I hope not to be keeping them for long. They're very cute and youtube videos used for comparison indicate that they are 7 days old.

I have new videos of FB and the kittens to post and will do so eventually. Right now the kittens are just "mounding" when they are awake or crawling all over me. FBs telling me he's a little old for tricks and I can't reward him with protein filled snacks for doing them and he's getting complacent. He still likes to have me follow him around but giving him hugs like he's getting in my profile pic don't last long... he afraid he's getting a needle or bad tasting food everytime I pic him up. This may also be because he knows we have other cats in the garage and he's territorial and feels betrayed... I'm leaning more towards him feeling betrayed now that I think about it, that's when he stopped being my buddy. I introduced him to my favorite of the kittens after a few days of having them in the garage and he just hissed and growled at it. He's never liked other cats, is very alpha, even towards kittens it seems. C60 definitely does not cure territoriality.

Does anyone know anything about hand/bottle raising kittens? Is it ok to socialize them when they're hardly a week old? They seem to love exploring my "hand cave" and climbing anything I give them, but my roommate looks at me like it hurts them to be doing this type of things with them. My goal is to have them all be the type of cats that you can give belly rubs and hold on their backs like FB, and I've had them sleeping in my hands this way. They seem to be getting stronger rather than weaker so IMO it's good for them, but would appreciate a good second opinion to allay roommate's fears of kitten abuse.

[YOLF]

SPCA says a few minutes at a time until they're two weeks or open their eyes. I figure they're crawling up my hand it's fine to start playing with them. They may be a few days older than I had initially thought as well, apparently human socialized kittens open their eyes sooner than feral kittens, so these could be on a different schedule.Neighbor who's kid saved them thought they were two weeks old when found. Human raised open their eyes between 10 -12 days old.

[VP.]

I have a 14 year old longhair Dachshund with congestive heart disease. He was very weak before I took him to the Vet to get his diagnosis. The Vet prescribed three pills that helped him get around but he was still weak. We have a two level outside deck and we had to carry him up the stairs after letting him outside in the morning. He just could not get up the stairs. I decided to try some US made commercially available C60 on him. About 1ml the first day in yogurt and half a ml the second day. I forgot about it until a couple days latter when I saw him run up the stairs like he did years ago! He now is able to get up the stairs with little difficulty. My girlfriend was amazed and pleased that she didn't have to carry him up every morning. It's only an anecdote but we can rule out the placebo effect. C60 is some amazing stuff.

I have a 14 year old longhair Dachshund with congestive heart disease. He was very weak before I took him to the Vet to get his diagnosis. The Vet prescribed three pills that helped him get around but he was still weak. We have a two level outside deck and we had to carry him up the stairs after letting him outside in the morning. He just could not get up the stairs. I decided to try some US made commercially available C60 on him. About 1ml the first day in yogurt and half a ml the second day. I forgot about it until a couple days latter when I saw him run up the stairs like he did years ago! He now is able to get up the stairs with little difficulty. My girlfriend was amazed and pleased that she didn't have to carry him up every morning. It's only an anecdote but we can rule out the placebo effect. C60 is some amazing stuff.

[YOLF]

Cool, you should keep a log. 14 is pretty old for a dog, this could be a great test of C60.

[VP.]

I am going to stop giving my dog C60 and see if he gets worse and then dose him again to see if he improves. That would pretty much convince me. I will try to take before and after videos. His recovery may have been a delayed coincidence due the heart medicine he had been taking for a month.

[blood]

I've also started giving him treats with glucosamin/chondriotin in fairly large doses (500mg of glucosamine is alot considering humans are supposed to take 1500mg. I was giving him around 375mg/day when I was mixing it in his food from my capsuls.

Could that much glucosamine over a long time be dangerous/ harmful for a small animal?

I remember reading that high levels of glucosamine will kill pancreatic cells (in vitro study).

http://www.scienceda...01027111349.htm

Too Much Glucosamine Can Cause the Death of Pancreatic Cells, Increase Diabetes Risk, Researchers Find
…

In vitro tests conducted by Professor Frédéric Picard and his team revealed that glucosamine exposure causes a significant increase in mortality in insulin-producing pancreatic cells, a phenomenon tied to the development of diabetes. Cell death rate increases with glucosamine dose and exposure time. "In our experiments, we used doses five to ten times higher than that recommended by most manufacturers, or 1,500 mg/day," stressed Professor Picard. "Previous studies showed that a significant proportion of glucosamine users up the dose hoping to increase the effects," he explained.

Picard and his team have shown that glucosamine triggers a mechanism intended to lower very high blood sugar levels. However, this reaction negatively affects SIRT1, a protein critical to cell survival. A high concentration of glucosamine diminishes the level of SIRT1, leading to cell death in the tissues where this protein is abundant, such as the pancreas.

Individuals who use large amounts of glucosamine, those who consume it for long periods, and those with little SIRT1 in their cells are therefore believed to be at greater risk of developing diabetes. In a number of mammal species, SIRT1 level diminishes with age. This phenomenon has not been shown in humans but if it were the case, the elderly -- who constitute the target market for glucosamine -- would be even more vulnerable.

"The key point of our work is that glucosamine can have effects that are far from harmless and should be used with great caution," concluded Professor Picard.

The results obtained by Picard and his team coincide with recent studies that cast serious doubt on the effectiveness of glucosamine in treating joint problems.

Your cat has a lovely face. I like the picture where he is looking directly into the camera.

What are people's opinions on a multivitamin for cats for general health? I'm thinking of something like LEF's Cat Mix.

Edited by blood, 05 July 2013 - 06:02 AM.

[YOLF]

I am going to stop giving my dog C60 and see if he gets worse and then dose him again to see if he improves. That would pretty much convince me. I will try to take before and after videos. His recovery may have been a delayed coincidence due the heart medicine he had been taking for a month.

You should start a log book for him, what's his name?

[YOLF]

I've also started giving him treats with glucosamin/chondriotin in fairly large doses (500mg of glucosamine is alot considering humans are supposed to take 1500mg. I was giving him around 375mg/day when I was mixing it in his food from my capsuls.

Could that much glucosamine over a long time be dangerous/ harmful for a small animal?

I remember reading that high levels of glucosamine will kill pancreatic cells (in vitro study).

http://www.scienceda...01027111349.htm

Too Much Glucosamine Can Cause the Death of Pancreatic Cells, Increase Diabetes Risk, Researchers Find
…

In vitro tests conducted by Professor Frédéric Picard and his team revealed that glucosamine exposure causes a significant increase in mortality in insulin-producing pancreatic cells, a phenomenon tied to the development of diabetes. Cell death rate increases with glucosamine dose and exposure time. "In our experiments, we used doses five to ten times higher than that recommended by most manufacturers, or 1,500 mg/day," stressed Professor Picard. "Previous studies showed that a significant proportion of glucosamine users up the dose hoping to increase the effects," he explained.

Picard and his team have shown that glucosamine triggers a mechanism intended to lower very high blood sugar levels. However, this reaction negatively affects SIRT1, a protein critical to cell survival. A high concentration of glucosamine diminishes the level of SIRT1, leading to cell death in the tissues where this protein is abundant, such as the pancreas.

Individuals who use large amounts of glucosamine, those who consume it for long periods, and those with little SIRT1 in their cells are therefore believed to be at greater risk of developing diabetes. In a number of mammal species, SIRT1 level diminishes with age. This phenomenon has not been shown in humans but if it were the case, the elderly -- who constitute the target market for glucosamine -- would be even more vulnerable.

"The key point of our work is that glucosamine can have effects that are far from harmless and should be used with great caution," concluded Professor Picard.

The results obtained by Picard and his team coincide with recent studies that cast serious doubt on the effectiveness of glucosamine in treating joint problems.

Your cat has a lovely face. I like the picture where he is looking directly into the camera.

What are people's opinions on a multivitamin for cats for general health? I'm thinking of something like LEF's Cat Mix.

I haven't given him the G/C/MSM supplements for a while. They are the Vitakitty snacks, but he's been having trouble chewing them and the vet doesn't think he'd survive being put under for anymore dental work. I've come across the pancreatic concerns before though. TMK, in vitro studies usually don't translate well. I'd like to see a study on the incidence of pancreatic issues in glucosamine users vs. the general population of similar age groups. Chondroitin is available separately and even quite cheaply. There is no doubt in my mind that something in my G/C/MSM is effective at improving joint endurance and recovery in high performance cardio. I extended my work outs from just over an hour daily with joint pain to as much as 5 hours without.

Thanks, he is a really cute and friendly cat I had him sitting on my lap today and he loves being held in my arms for long periods. Most cats I've had would never put up with me picking them up for more than a few moments and would put up a fight, he goes right to nestling in your neck. He chuffs constantly and cries frequently when he's lonely. He even does a few tricks when he's in the mood.

[Kevnzworld]

I've been supplementing my cat with C60 on and off for about six months. I've been taking it for 8-9 months. She's 19 and doesn't have any major ailments. She does get constipated, and occasionally throws up. I realize that C60's efficacy will be minimal at this point in her life, but I had to try.
Unless one started a supplement regimen early there isn't any way to really judge efficacy because cats and dogs have such varied lifespans. I hope someone's pet is able to significantly break the 20 year barrier. I wish I would have been able to start my cat on C60 much earlier in her life.

[YOLF]

If she's in good condition, I'd keep giving it to here and aim for disease prevention. Periodically give her an antibiotic to prevent infections from damaging her organs and she'll probably do just fine. They make finger tooth brushes to use on your cat and have fish flavored toothpaste too.

[YOLF]

FB got his C60, and I just started the "render and post to youtube" process, it will be available shortly for your viewing pleasure. I have more coming, this one basically shows how he takes his C60 medicine, but I'll have videos of him chasing a cat fishing pole and some other stuff to if I can manage to shoot the video and play with him. The other videos have been/will be taken with a real camera, this video is just an impromptu one I took with my phone.

[blood]

Cat takes off when you hold up the dreaded EVOO-C60 bottle...

[YOLF]

Yeah, I do with there was some way I could get him to like it... I can't get him to eat Salmon oil either... He's a tough cat.