69 replies to this topic

[YOLF]

So my cat is apparently having kidney problems, he's pretty big as far as housecats go without being a maine coon or anything like that. He looks healthy to me and last time he was actually dieing he hid and wouldn't let you get near him, he's definitely not doing anything like that now. He's always asking for attention. He is on Clindamycin Hydorcholoride for anti-biotics... He was started on them because he started eating less, but it seems that the drug has side effects that do the same thing, and he won't eat snacks or food after getting the Clindamycin. It also seems to have made him start vomitting, but this is a side effect of the Clinda, and I think we should try a different drug before assuming he is going through kidney failure... I was hoping to wait until he was entirely healthy before giving him the c60 and no sooner did I get it than he got a bump on his chest (now gone). Should I risk starting the C60 under this condition? It's my feeling that there are more side effects from the drug than there are from the original condition and that the drug has the same side effects to boot making it pretty impossible to know if it is actually doing any good.

Also I know that C60 caused a recurrence of side effects from antibiotics in some cases and was wondering if anyone had any experience with Clinda and C60 to share.

[Mind]

How old is your cat?

[YOLF]

14/15

[hav]

So sorry to hear of your cat's poor health. I lost my 13 year-old Persian about 3-1/2 years ago to renal failure. About 3 months before her passing she was diagnosed by the vet as having one kidney barely functioning and the other stone laden. I think she also was given antibiotic shots when infection set in but I don't know which type. And given a saline IV to enhance hydration. All before I became aware of c60.

Don't know if c60/oo might help but I haven't found anything solid to the contrary. But I have dug up a little bit that might be remotely promising.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21143031

Fullerene-mediated photodynamic therapy of mice infected with P. mirabilis led to 82% survival compared with 8% survival without treatment (p < 0.001). Photodynamic therapy of mice infected with highly virulent P. aeruginosa did not lead to survival, but when photodynamic therapy was combined with a suboptimal dose of the antibiotic tobramycin (6 mg/kg for 1 day) there was a synergistic therapeutic effect with a survival of 60% compared with a survival of 20% with tobramycin alone (p < 0.01).

Which suggests at a minimum that c60 might not negatively interact with antibiotics. But note that the above study focused on using photodynamic therapy with a bright white light on an open wound on mice infected with a virus. And also tested with what sounds like a hydrated fullerene: made from c60 combined with sarcosine and paraformaldehyde in refluxing toluene in DMSO solution with saline. Perhaps c60/oo may be just as bio available and your cat might get a similar synergistic effect with the antibiotic while basking in the sun. Which is interesting since its usually advised to avoid sunlight while taking antibiotics.

Here's another study that might relate to the general concept of taking antioxidants together with antibiotics. It used garlic together with adriamycin with positive results:
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/10815020

Not being that familiar with clindamycin, I checked around on places like wikipedia and webmd and didn't see any mention of using it to treat kidney failure. But pubmed contained papers supporting that usage. Here's an interesting anecdotal report:

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22581877

A patient with newly-diagnosed HIV infection and biopsy-proven cerebral toxoplasmosis was treated with sulphadiazine and pyrimethamine. Despite adequate hydration and daily examination of urine for sulphadiazine crystals obstructive uropathy due to bilateral ureteric stones with hydronephrosis occurred, resulting in rapid onset renal failure. Sulphadiazine was discontinued and clindamycin was substituted. With intravenous fluid hydration and bilateral nephrostomies the urolithiasis resolved.

Howard

[YOLF]

Thanks for the info Hav!

[YOLF]

Ok, so my FFFBFFF (friendly fuzzy furry best friend forever feline) has been doing better and is off any kind of medication. We give him water as cat dialysis (questions on this later) about once a week as he gets dehydrated.

He tends to eat less when he's dehydrated so I figured giving him the C60 right before the dialysis, not quite 10 hours of no food, but some fasting nonetheless. Hopefully this will be synergistic. He eats quite a bit following dialysis.

Drops:1 and then 2 more of VW/owndoc C60.
I've been putting drops of olive oil on his paw for the last week and he apparently will lick the light olive oil bottles if they are left on the floor. So he likes the non virgin OO and licks it from his paw. The EVOO C60 is a little bit different from what I hear. He doesn't like the taste of it apparently and I only see him lick it when he gets bothered by having the oil on his paw. So I'm not sure how much of it he actually got. He's to a point where he doesn't resist things anymore but I started with one drop and then gave him two more to make sure he got more of it and he struggled to get away from me when he saw the bottle. He knew he was getting the dialysis needle though too and he usually puts up a little struggle and cries when he gets stuck by the needle. I'll wash his paw off before the oil dries and leaves non lipo C60, but I'm guessing that wouldn't be much of a problem given that people are putting it on their faces.

That was about an hour ago. He's napping happily by my side and isn't complaining about anything but hasn't closed his eyes and gone to sleep either. He's apparently content with his tail wrapped around himself and he was winking at me.

Now about the dialysis question, would creatine monohydrate benefit him in this case as it increases water retention? I'm thinking that his kidneys aren't doing so good because he can't hold water and can't urinate much, not because his kidneys are too bad off. Would it essentially do the same thing or give him more water to work with? I was thinking I could mix some in with his food or put it in light olive oil. Obviously I wouldn't want to give him a body builder dosage, so what would be a good dose? What about MSM and Glucosamine/Chondroitin? He cries when he's walking up steps or before jumping to one of his favorite perching spots. Dosing? I also have HMB I can mix in.

I'll record some vids for youtube when I have some better light to work with.

Edited by cryonicsculture, 31 March 2013 - 02:56 AM.

[Mind]

Just remember that the rationale for a lot of human supplementation is tenuous, making the rationale for giving it to a cat even more so. Supplement results from in vitro experiments and mouse models rarely translate well into humans. Giving a cat supplements based on the rationale of what it is supposed to do in humans is risky. Unfortunately for our pets, we don't have as much data to guide our decisions. Of course, with an old pet that is sick, most people are willing to take a few more chances. Just be aware, that a lot of human supps might not be good for cats.

[Kevnzworld]

I give my little feline granny C60OO in her wet food, about .15 mg per day. She recently turned 19. Is there any reason NOT to dose her this way? I ask this after reading cryonicsculture's post.
My cat doesn't have kidney issues as of her last blood test. I put some fish oil in her food ( from my gel caps ) for kidney support.

[YOLF]

For Creatine, the results are pretty well accepted. It makes you hold water and makes your muscles look bigger and when you don't use it, you deflate. The results of visibly obvious. As far as being able to detox a cat with a bum kidney or two, I don't know though. In any case, the stuff is made in the liver and kidney from amino acids in most vertebrates. I don't actually have any creatine though, but it looks like it would be good for bone pain as well which I'm thinking my cat is experiencing as he cries about steps and jumping. The MSM works great in my experience for joint pain and serves the same function in cats, so if he can take it in, it should work I'm thinking, but the creatine may be a better and more direct solution. He's been sleeping alot lately. I probably shouldn't give him HMB w/o the creatine first. I'll have to see what's available locally or if there are some serious body builders local to my area.

Add two drops of C60 to his food today, he was too sleepy to get up and eat yet though. Just for front loading, after this I'll go to bi-monthly doses.

Kevin, did you buy your cat from a pet store?

[Mind]

I give my little feline granny C60OO in her wet food, about .15 mg per day. She recently turned 19. Is there any reason NOT to dose her this way? I ask this after reading cryonicsculture's post.
My cat doesn't have kidney issues as of her last blood test. I put some fish oil in her food ( from my gel caps ) for kidney support.

Of course, I gave my sick older cat C60oo and even a little coconut oil. Modern vet medicine probably could not have done any better.

19 years old. I hope she makes it a lot longer. 20 years old is the gold standard for most cat-lovers I speak with - when hoping for feline longevity.

[niner]

Now about the dialysis question, would creatine monohydrate benefit him in this case as it increases water retention? I'm thinking that his kidneys aren't doing so good because he can't hold water and can't urinate much, not because his kidneys are too bad off. Would it essentially do the same thing or give him more water to work with? I was thinking I could mix some in with his food or put it in light olive oil. Obviously I wouldn't want to give him a body builder dosage, so what would be a good dose? What about MSM and Glucosamine/Chondroitin? He cries when he's walking up steps or before jumping to one of his favorite perching spots. Dosing? I also have HMB I can mix in.

DO NOT give him creatine. It will be metabolized to creatinine and will require a higher urine output to get rid of. It's safe for people with healthy kidneys, but it not advised for people with kidney disorders. C60-oo isn't likely to help his kidneys, although it may help some other things.

[Kevnzworld]

Kevin, did you buy your cat from a pet store?

Yes. She's undersized and a lifelong indoor cat, both of which may have contributed to her longevity.

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Edited by Kevnzworld, 02 April 2013 - 12:41 AM.

[YOLF]

Now about the dialysis question, would creatine monohydrate benefit him in this case as it increases water retention? I'm thinking that his kidneys aren't doing so good because he can't hold water and can't urinate much, not because his kidneys are too bad off. Would it essentially do the same thing or give him more water to work with? I was thinking I could mix some in with his food or put it in light olive oil. Obviously I wouldn't want to give him a body builder dosage, so what would be a good dose? What about MSM and Glucosamine/Chondroitin? He cries when he's walking up steps or before jumping to one of his favorite perching spots. Dosing? I also have HMB I can mix in.

DO NOT give him creatine. It will be metabolized to creatinine and will require a higher urine output to get rid of. It's safe for people with healthy kidneys, but it not advised for people with kidney disorders. C60-oo isn't likely to help his kidneys, although it may help some other things.

Anything I can give him to help his kidneys? What about the dialysis? We inject water into his "scruff," and he tends to urinate it out until he's dehydrated again a few days later. Wouldn't that be synergistic? Isn't the method of the dialysis supposed to be flushing him out through his urine? If the dose of Creatine is maintained, I would think he would both hold and purge more water and get better detox while drinking like a fish.

Perhaps HMB would be a better option?

[YOLF]

Kevin, did you buy your cat from a pet store?

Yes. She's undersized and a lifelong indoor cat, both of which may have contributed to her longevity.

She looks pretty good for her age. What's her name? I'm sure she'll make it to 20. I'm thinking pet store cats tend to have been bred for health whereas rescue/adoption types happened naturally, like the Gattica movie. Fuzbud came to me when my Aunt's cat got out unexpectedly. He's already getting close to two years older than she was. She died of a sudden heart attack. Fuzbud has a heart murmur. Not sure if his dad is still around or old he was. Fuzbud's pretty big though. He's supposed to be 12lbs IIRC. He's an indoor cat, but I take him out to sit with me on the porch or back deck a few times a week on the summer months. He doesn't leave my sight. He's been neutered and has always been overweight (about 16-18lbs) and ate human food regularly until he started getting sick. Both my sister's and my mother's cat were skin and bones frail for a year or more before they died, so I'm thinking Fuzbud's got some life left in him yet if we can keep his kidneys going and keep the weight coming off slowly.

Is your cat "fixed?"

[niner]

DO NOT give him creatine. It will be metabolized to creatinine and will require a higher urine output to get rid of. It's safe for people with healthy kidneys, but it not advised for people with kidney disorders. C60-oo isn't likely to help his kidneys, although it may help some other things.

Anything I can give him to help his kidneys? What about the dialysis? We inject water into his "scruff," and he tends to urinate it out until he's dehydrated again a few days later. Wouldn't that be synergistic? Isn't the method of the dialysis supposed to be flushing him out through his urine? If the dose of Creatine is maintained, I would think he would both hold and purge more water and get better detox while drinking like a fish.

Perhaps HMB would be a better option?

I don't think HMB would be a good idea without some research into it. Is there a veterinarian involved in his case? If there is a known cause for your cat's kidney failure, and if were something correctable, that would be the best thing to do. In the usual case, you would want to have him on a special diet that lowered phosphorus and sodium, and at least didn't have excess protein. Protein restriction may or may not be a good idea. You'd want to keep an eye on his electrolyte level, but that's not something you can do at home without training. He should also be checked for anemia.

I lost a cat to kidney disease. It's a huge problem for older cats. A cat doctor would be very much up on it.

[YOLF]

Yeah, he's been to the Vet, she gave us the equip. for the cat version of dialysis. His kidney problems started out as an infection and didn't rebound fully. I'll check and see if cat food lists phosphorus and sodium content. He turns his nose at the food the Vet gave us and just starves and cries until we feed him the regular stuff.

[AgeVivo]

The EVOO C60 is a little bit different from what I hear. He doesn't like the taste of it apparently and I only see him lick it when he gets bothered by having the oil on his paw. So I'm not sure how much of it he actually got.

is everyone here giving c60 to their cat in this way or is there a better way perhaps?

[YOLF]

I would gavage him, but I only have glass droppers. Mind puts it on his cat's food, I've tried that too and might continue that way as I'm not sure if he'll even lick his paws anymore after giving him the EVOO C60. A better way would be great. He won't eat bread or anything that can absorb oil based stuff that I'm aware of. I'm not aware of any spongy cat treats either. He's still getting Clindamycin by gavage once a month to prevent any future kidney infections, can I mix the two? It has a plastic dropper.

[YOLF]

Update:

Fuzzybuddy (FB) has been a pretty sleepy cat for a while. I stuck a cat bed on the foot stool near my computer and he's been sleeping there all day every day up until the day after I gave him C60. I also don't hear him complaining as much. Even after his regular dialysis treatments he would still spend most of his time sleeping.

Post C60 FB's already being more curious and active. He changes sleeping spots more frequently and is more aware to the world. He's still vomitted today which is as frequent as usual, but he didn't seem drained and weak as he usually is before we give him more dialysis (2x/wk). The ejection was less in volume than usual as well and may be due to overeating has he's also been stuffing himself since the C60+dialysis. He's definitely got the munchies and his fur has gotten softer, though the fur softening happened when I gave him light olive oil on the paw. I stopped giving him light OO since giving him C60 EVOO.

It's still very early, but I'm already hopeful, which I tend to be w/ anything I believe in, or that shows promise. I have made some other observations, but I'm going to hold off on recording them until I understand them better.

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Edited by cryonicsculture, 02 April 2013 - 10:38 PM.

[Kevnzworld]

The EVOO C60 is a little bit different from what I hear. He doesn't like the taste of it apparently and I only see him lick it when he gets bothered by having the oil on his paw. So I'm not sure how much of it he actually got.

is everyone here giving c60 to their cat in this way or is there a better way perhaps?

I give my cat ( her name is baby, she's 19 and fixed ) C60 in her wet cat food. First , it's the only way I could get her to take it. I also think that C60OO would be better absorbed with food containing fat.

[niner]

Yeah, he's been to the Vet, she gave us the equip. for the cat version of dialysis. His kidney problems started out as an infection and didn't rebound fully. I'll check and see if cat food lists phosphorus and sodium content. He turns his nose at the food the Vet gave us and just starves and cries until we feed him the regular stuff.

The vet food might be low protein, which cats often don't like. Maybe you can find something with moderate protein but low P and Na. Special diets don't do much good if the cat won't eat them. Try not to give him human food- some of it is not good for cats, particularly with kidney failure.

[YOLF]

The EVOO C60 is a little bit different from what I hear. He doesn't like the taste of it apparently and I only see him lick it when he gets bothered by having the oil on his paw. So I'm not sure how much of it he actually got.

is everyone here giving c60 to their cat in this way or is there a better way perhaps?

I give my cat ( her name is baby, she's 19 and fixed ) C60 in her wet cat food. First , it's the only way I could get her to take it. I also think that C60OO would be better absorbed with food containing fat.

FB gets the canned food, that's what I put the C60 in the second time around and he did eat it. I've been thinking that fish oil from our supps might be too strong for a cat, but considering their natural diet and allometric proportions, it might just be okay for them. How much do you give your cat? How do you get it out of the gelcap?

[YOLF]

Yeah, he's been to the Vet, she gave us the equip. for the cat version of dialysis. His kidney problems started out as an infection and didn't rebound fully. I'll check and see if cat food lists phosphorus and sodium content. He turns his nose at the food the Vet gave us and just starves and cries until we feed him the regular stuff.

The vet food might be low protein, which cats often don't like. Maybe you can find something with moderate protein but low P and Na. Special diets don't do much good if the cat won't eat them. Try not to give him human food- some of it is not good for cats, particularly with kidney failure.

I rarely do and would prefer it if he didn't get the stuff, but I don't live alone, otherwise he'd be skinny no matter how much he complained and he'd starve if he didn't eat the Vet food. He's good at crying and looking cute though so people give him stuff.

[Mind]

Great pictures cryonicsculture. Your cat looks healthy.

For feeding, I mix approx. 0.30ml with the best tasting food I can find, usually canned food mixed with tuna. If they are hungry, you can mix a bigger portion of food with the C60oo to dilute it a bit, that way the olive oil flavor will not be quite as noticeable.

[YOLF]

Thanks Mind! He has been looking healthier lately. His fur was getting that old raggedy look for a while, but the dialysis helped some, and the light OO did the rest for his coat.

How often were the mice given OO (not C60 OO) in the life extension experiments that showed 40% longer lifespans?

On another note, his stomach isn't making as much noise as it has been. He hasn't been sleeping on the hassock in my workshop as much lately. Now that he's more active again, he's preferring to hang out where there are more people. I would hear his stomach churning without end when he was on my hassock, now it's much softer and not constant. His not hanging out with me as much might also be the C60 EVOO he's mad about the flavor and ignored me until I made good with him.

I got the Creatine I ordered today, I'm hoping Niner can help me figure out if it's a good idea or straighten me out on the idea.

[YOLF]

Hmmm... something just dawned on me. Cats are able to absorb oils through their ears, no? What about putting the C60 in my cat's ear? Good idea? Bad idea?

[stephen_b]

I don't think the cat is going to like it very much, so I'm going with bad idea.

[YOLF]

We've always had to put ear cleaning stuff in his ears, he hates it less than gavage and C60 on the paw.

Update:
FB's looking healthy and his behavior is still suggesting improved health. I see him up and about more often and he's chasing my finger under a blanket again. He was running away from it for more peaceful naps. He didn't play the finger blanket game for long though, but he did play it, if he keeps it up and this isn't just a one off cuz I haven't tried it for a while, it'll be a pretty cool indicator I think. We're late on giving him dialysis and he isn't dragging himself around meowing in pain or complaint.

Oh, and in case I didn't mention it earlier, he still gets a monthly antibiotic for prevention.

[niner]

How often were the mice given OO (not C60 OO) in the life extension experiments that showed 40% longer lifespans?

I got the Creatine I ordered today, I'm hoping Niner can help me figure out if it's a good idea or straighten me out on the idea.

The rats on OO get the same schedule as the c60-oo rats. I think it was daily for a week, weekly for a month, then every two weeks, but don't quote me on it. It was something like that.

I don't recommend the creatine for FB. It could kill him in the worst case, and the best case scenario is only neutral. I just can't see it helping, but it could injure a cat with CKD.

[YOLF]

Thanks!