60 replies to this topic

[Mr Serendipity]

Do mens testosterone production rise as they becomes more muscular?

I know a males testosterone level may be lower in a fat person, because of the aromotising effect of fat cells converting the testosterone to estrogen.

But lets say we put a muscular bodybuilder (with 6-10% bf), a normal healthy man (10-15% bf), and a healthy skinny man (6-10% bf). Would there testosterone differ with scientific significance?

Obviously I understand there are a lot of factors that can influence testosterone, but I mean in general is there a correlation?

I only ask because Googling the information seems to be impossible, and the only evidence I have to go on is this Brainiac episode I watched when I was a kid.



If you skip to 12 minutes, the skinny guys testosterone is 198, the bodybuilders is 964.

So my question could be summed up, do healthy males have significantly different testosterone levels to muscular healthy males?

[nowayout]

No, I don't believe that is the case.

On testosterone replacement forums there are often guys who didn't think they had low testosterone because they were muscular, yet it turned out they were low.

And you certainly cannot infer that someone who is less muscular has lower testosterone.

I have seen studies on elite athletes showing that they have average or in some cases lower than average testosterone levels.

A lot of men are thin in their 20s and only start being able to grow muscle in their 30s when testosterone levels are the same or maybe a bit lower.

While you can build more muscle by injecting exogenous testosterone, the levels at which this becomes significant are much higher than natural healthy testosterone levels.

Edited by viveutvivas, 03 March 2013 - 01:27 AM.

[mikeinnaples]

A lot of men are thin in their 20s and only start being able to grow muscle in their 30s when testosterone levels are the same or maybe a bit lower.

I don't think this particular comment is correct. Just because you are thin in your 20's does not mean you cannot 'grow' muscle, in fact, the opposite would tend to be more true. A typical 20 year old will be able to do it faster with less effort than a typical 30 year old.

[mikeinnaples]

@Manny - It is more than likely much easier to build muscle with T levels in the 900's compared to someone in the 100's. Both can do it, but the guy with the higher T will have an 'easier' time of it. I am not so sure the muscle itself means you will automatically have higher T, though there are certain things you can do that are exercise related to influence T. Hmm..

[nowayout]

A lot of men are thin in their 20s and only start being able to grow muscle in their 30s when testosterone levels are the same or maybe a bit lower.

I don't think this particular comment is correct. Just because you are thin in your 20's does not mean you cannot 'grow' muscle, in fact, the opposite would tend to be more true. A typical 20 year old will be able to do it faster with less effort than a typical 30 year old.

I am not sure about that. I've seen a lot of guys with only light muscle gain in their 20s who then started putting on a lot more muscle in their 30s with the same amount of effort.

And guys who do put on a lot of muscle in their 20s tend to grow muscle even more in their 30s. They don't suddenly start to grow thin.

I don't think you can really claim the other way around is typical.

If I had to make a claim from what I have seen, I think for the "typical" ectomorph-type guy it is more "typical" to put on muscle easier once they are in their 30s.

I am one of them.

Maybe it has to do with thyroid hormones.

Edited by viveutvivas, 06 March 2013 - 09:37 PM.

[mikeinnaples]

My personal life experience both in myself and with others is forcing me to disagree with you. Even without taking things like T levels into consideration, a guy in his 20's is going to have faster recovery than a guy in his 30's. Given comparable diet to metabolism, effort, and routine ...a 20 something is going to have more muscle mass than a 30 something.

Please note that I am not saying a 30 something may not be 'bigger' though on average. A typical 30 something has to put far more effort into staying lean than a 20 something. As a result this would cause a 30 something to indeed look 'bigger'. Unless of course you an oddball 30 (almost 40) something like myself, heh. But then again, I put a hell of alot of effort into staying that way.... vastly more than I had to do in my 20's.

Edit: I guess I should tell you where I am coming from. 5 years in the military as a grunt (in other words, infantry, and not a desk jockey) surrounded by other young Marines. Not a single one of them had any issue putting on muscle, whether they were a 18 y/o boot out fresh out SOI or a 25 year old Sgt. Every last one were lean, mean, and strong.

Edited by mikeinnaples, 07 March 2013 - 02:34 PM.

[platypus]

I am not sure about that. I've seen a lot of guys with only light muscle gain in their 20s who then started putting on a lot more muscle in their 30s with the same amount of effort.

And guys who do put on a lot of muscle in their 20s tend to grow muscle even more in their 30s. They don't suddenly start to grow thin.

That might simply be because properly understanding training and nutrition takes some years?

[nowayout]

My personal life experience both in myself and with others is forcing me to disagree with you. Even without taking things like T levels into consideration, a guy in his 20's is going to have faster recovery than a guy in his 30's. Given comparable diet to metabolism, effort, and routine ...a 20 something is going to have more muscle mass than a 30 something.

Please note that I am not saying a 30 something may not be 'bigger' though on average. A typical 30 something has to put far more effort into staying lean than a 20 something. As a result this would cause a 30 something to indeed look 'bigger'. Unless of course you an oddball 30 (almost 40) something like myself, heh. But then again, I put a hell of alot of effort into staying that way.... vastly more than I had to do in my 20's.

I am not talking about fat mass, but muscle mass. What you are saying is so often repeated that most people accept it as fact, but I don't think it is true. In my experience and that of people I know, a healthy lean 33 year old does not have slower recovery than a 23 year old - 33 is way too early for that slowdown and if you do have a slowdown so early you should get yourself checked for an underlying disease, and most of my friends had more muscle mass at 33 than at 23 for the same effort. But I have to say that I move in a cricle of unmarried gay guys who never got fat and for whom weight training is a way of life. Go to any gay club - they all want to be muscular and they all work out hard, but on average the guys in their 30s and even 40s are way more muscular than the guys in their 20s. It is so common that the thin twentysomething and the hunky thirtysomething have even become stereotypes. That is what is typical in my world

I acknowledge that things may have been different in a militay environment, which is mostly a different denmographic where more people tend to marry, have children, stop working out, and gain fat earlier in life.

What you are saying might indeed be true of the average guy who lets himself go somewhere between 20 and 30. He will indeed have problems with recovery since he is probably on his way to type 2 diabetes and heart disease already.

Edited by viveutvivas, 07 March 2013 - 04:03 PM.

[platypus]

and most of my friends had more muscle mass at 33 than at 23 for the same effort.

But it's not "the same effort" - they are lifting heavier weights so the demands they place on the body are higher, which allows them to carry more muscle.

[nowayout]

and most of my friends had more muscle mass at 33 than at 23 for the same effort.

But it's not "the same effort" - they are lifting heavier weights so the demands they place on the body are higher, which allows them to carry more muscle.

Maybe, but because they can lift heavier than in their 20s and still recover fine.

[mikeinnaples]

Well I am referring to all things being equal as my actual argument, not just specific demographics.

So what actual scientific evidence do we have that a 30 something recovers from exercise the same as a 20 something? I would love to read some studies.

Anecdote: Everything I do seems to come much harder and with much more effort now than it did when I was in my 20's across the board physically. Whether it is the intensity of exercise I have to do, the recovery time from that exercise I required, or recovery from any sport or exercise related injuries. I am also not a typical male in my age group physically thanks to the time and effort I put in.

[nowayout]

I didn't feel any difference between my 20s and my 30s. I didn't think it was normal to start feeling a deterioration so early in life. I've always thought (and in my own life felt) that men peaked at around 35, but perhaps I am a late bloomer.

Edited by viveutvivas, 07 March 2013 - 10:47 PM.

[mikeinnaples]

Well in physically demanding sports, at least in regards to speed, power, strength, and injury recovery..... 35 is considered 'old' and close to retirement age, and peak age is late 20's. In other sports this isn't as true and peak may even be in the 30's. I think you cardio fitness probably improves in your 30's, I just have to disagree in regards to strength and recovery based on my anecdotal experiences in life

[JohnD60]

For some reason I can not quote the original post... the questions from the original post cut and pasted:

"Do mens testosterone production rise as they becomes more muscular?"
"So my question could be summed up, do healthy males have significantly different testosterone levels to muscular healthy males? "

Two different questions, the answer to the first one is no, an individual man's testosterone level is not going to rise just because he puts on muscle mass.
The answer to the second question is maybe, but will vary on a individual basis. If you measured the testosterone levels of 1000 thin heathy men, and compared that to the testosterone levels of 1000 muscular healthy men, on average the muscular men will have higher testosterone levels.

The Braniac show was so painfully silly, I could not finish watching it.

In general I agree with mikeinnaples' comments in this thread.

[The Immortalist]

How you respond to testosterone has something to do with a thing called androgen sensitivity. Some people are immune to testosterone altogether and have what is know as androgen insensitivity syndrome. They are genetically male but they don't develop a dick and balls in the womb and instead have a pseudo vagina with no ovaries. There are other milder forms of the condition.
http://en.wikipedia....ns_and_symptoms
http://en.wikipedia....tivity_syndrome
http://en.wikipedia....tivity_syndrome

It is not impossible to think that there could be a skinny guy out there who has testosterone levels far above average but his muscle cells just don't respond to it but his other cells in his dick, balls and vocal cords did. This could be an example of an as of yet undiscovered milder forms of androgen insensitivity syndrome.

Edited by The Immortalist, 02 April 2013 - 05:57 AM.

[nowayout]

How you respond to testosterone has something to do with a thing called androgen sensitivity.

Yes, not only that but there are many other steps in muscle synthesis and breakdown involving many other types of hormones, receptors, and enzymes, so there are a large number of other steps besides, say, androgen receptor polymorphisms, where genetic polymorphism may come into play. Just a few that come to mind are differences in growth hormone, insulin, and thyroid metabolism.

[Maecenas]

People with more muscle mass have higher testosterone levels.

Edited by Maecenas, 02 April 2013 - 04:52 PM.

[The Immortalist]

How you respond to testosterone has something to do with a thing called androgen sensitivity.

Yes, not only that but there are many other steps in muscle synthesis and breakdown involving many other types of hormones, receptors, and enzymes, so there are a large number of other steps besides, say, androgen receptor polymorphisms, where genetic polymorphism may come into play. Just a few that come to mind are differences in growth hormone, insulin, and thyroid metabolism.

Would it be possible in the future to fix these sub-optimal polymorphisms with gene therapy?

Edited by The Immortalist, 02 April 2013 - 08:06 PM.

[Maecenas]

http://www.nytimes.c...study-says.html
Interesting post from Bodybuilding com:

" In her book "The Well-Dressed Ape," Hannah Holmes contends that you may have high testosterone levels circulating in your body if your ring finger is longer than your index finger. Other factors which may signify high testosterone in your blood include a receding hair line, heavy growth of facial and body hair, acne, a lean physique and high cheekbones with a low brow ridge. In the September 2002 Men's Health, Laurence Gonzales notes that men with high testosterone levels tend to smile infrequently and talk less,suggesting they prefer action-oriented pursuits over those requiring verbalization.

...if you have high testosterone you may experience frequent episodes of unemployment and troubled relationships, broken marriages and strained relations with your children...

...men with high testosterone may smoke and drink more than men with lesser amounts of the hormone... "

And another study:

Men with higher testosterone are more interested in no-strings sex. And they have markedly different facial characteristics, including:

larger foreheads
pronounced brow ridges
smaller eyes
larger noses
squarer jaws
larger chins

Edited by Maecenas, 02 April 2013 - 08:15 PM.

[The Immortalist]

http://www.nytimes.c...study-says.html
Interesting post from Bodybuilding com:

" In her book "The Well-Dressed Ape," Hannah Holmes contends that you may have high testosterone levels circulating in your body if your ring finger is longer than your index finger. Other factors which may signify high testosterone in your blood include a receding hair line, heavy growth of facial and body hair, acne, a lean physique and high cheekbones with a low brow ridge. In the September 2002 Men's Health, Laurence Gonzales notes that men with high testosterone levels tend to smile infrequently and talk less,suggesting they prefer action-oriented pursuits over those requiring verbalization.

...if you have high testosterone you may experience frequent episodes of unemployment and troubled relationships, broken marriages and strained relations with your children...

...men with high testosterone may smoke and drink more than men with lesser amounts of the hormone... "

And another study:

Men with higher testosterone are more interested in no-strings sex. And they have markedly different facial characteristics, including:

larger foreheads
pronounced brow ridges
smaller eyes
larger noses
squarer jaws
larger chins

This is all bull crap, my index finger is the same length as my ring finger. Also my facial characteristics are exactly opposite of what you listed yet I have very high testosterone levels and build muscle easily.

Edited by The Immortalist, 03 April 2013 - 04:39 AM.

[nowayout]

How you respond to testosterone has something to do with a thing called androgen sensitivity.

Yes, not only that but there are many other steps in muscle synthesis and breakdown involving many other types of hormones, receptors, and enzymes, so there are a large number of other steps besides, say, androgen receptor polymorphisms, where genetic polymorphism may come into play. Just a few that come to mind are differences in growth hormone, insulin, and thyroid metabolism.

Would it be possible in the future to fix these sub-optimal polymorphisms with gene therapy?

No, because they are not sub-optimal unless you have an extremely narrow definition of "optimal".

[The Immortalist]

How you respond to testosterone has something to do with a thing called androgen sensitivity.

Yes, not only that but there are many other steps in muscle synthesis and breakdown involving many other types of hormones, receptors, and enzymes, so there are a large number of other steps besides, say, androgen receptor polymorphisms, where genetic polymorphism may come into play. Just a few that come to mind are differences in growth hormone, insulin, and thyroid metabolism.

Would it be possible in the future to fix these sub-optimal polymorphisms with gene therapy?

No, because they are not sub-optimal unless you have an extremely narrow definition of "optimal".

Well this thread is about musculature so the definition of optimal in this thread would be having the genetics to be able to grow muscle just as easy as it is to breath air so to speak. Outside this discussion it probably isn't optimal for longevity.

Edited by The Immortalist, 03 April 2013 - 01:58 PM.

[nowayout]

How you respond to testosterone has something to do with a thing called androgen sensitivity.

Yes, not only that but there are many other steps in muscle synthesis and breakdown involving many other types of hormones, receptors, and enzymes, so there are a large number of other steps besides, say, androgen receptor polymorphisms, where genetic polymorphism may come into play. Just a few that come to mind are differences in growth hormone, insulin, and thyroid metabolism.

Would it be possible in the future to fix these sub-optimal polymorphisms with gene therapy?

No, because they are not sub-optimal unless you have an extremely narrow definition of "optimal".

Well this thread is about musculature so the definition of optimal in this thread would be having the genetics to be able to grow muscle just as easy as it is to breath air so to speak. Outside this discussion it probably isn't optimal for longevity.

There are already plenty of drugs available for building muscle if you are not naturally inclined to do so easily, so making genetic changes for something so superficial is like typing with a sledgehammer, and very unlikely to become popular.

[KoolK3n]

Yes, muscular men have more FREE testosterone but in regards to overall test, it varies. By overall test, I mean the selective ones that promote a deeper voice, hair growth, sperm count, etc that by the way can not be influenced by exogenous test (steroids).

[pleb]

i found this thread interesting, whilst i have no idea of my T levels, i have never had a problem on the sex side, and at 68 yrs old (my avatar photo is 2 years old), i still don't need the little blue pill,
I've always been skinny, this was my only hangup, and couldn't do weight training because of an eye problem ( thin retinas) one of which is split and left me partially sighted,with a small amount of deterioration in the other,

regarding muscle building, quite a few months ago i came across an article by the New England School of medicine regarding HGH and its effects on old guys like me with its effects on ageing and rejuvenation so after more reading especially on the BB sites i' managed to find a supplier here in the UK,
from that and articles on BB forums i found other articles on IGF-1 long-3
and that it increases the anabolic effect 2.6 times when taken at the same time as HGH, then from that into Myostatin blockers,
ACE 031 500mcg injected every 2 weeks

plus the various protocols, i started on HGH 8 weeks ago at 2 iu a day then 3 weeks ago started the IGF-1 long-3 at 11mcg a day, and the ACE taken as mentioned as it stays in the body 12 to 14 days,

so far in three weeks the effects are great i am also taking whey protein and other than normal day to day activities have not done any exercise or used weights,and have put on quite a bit of muscle in comparison with what i had, most noticeably on my biceps triceps thighs and pecs, ( i never had pecs before !) i intend following the protocols and see what the effect is over the next few months and then decide whether to continue or not, from other reading this is new muscle in addition to the normal genetic muscle you have when you start, and is not lost when you stop,

Edited by pleb, 07 May 2013 - 11:37 AM.

[KoolK3n]

i found this thread interesting, whilst i have no idea of my T levels, i have never had a problem on the sex side, and at 68 yrs old (my avatar photo is 2 years old), i still don't need the little blue pill,
I've always been skinny, this was my only hangup, and couldn't do weight training because of an eye problem ( thin retinas) one of which is split and left me partially sighted,with a small amount of deterioration in the other,

regarding muscle building, quite a few months ago i came across an article by the New England School of medicine regarding HGH and its effects on old guys like me with its effects on ageing and rejuvenation so after more reading especially on the BB sites i' managed to find a supplier here in the UK,
from that and articles on BB forums i found other articles on IGF-1 long-3
and that it increases the anabolic effect 2.6 times when taken at the same time as HGH, then from that into Myostatin blockers,
ACE 031 500mcg injected every 2 weeks

plus the various protocols, i started on HGH 8 weeks ago at 2 iu a day then 3 weeks ago started the IGF-1 long-3 at 11mcg a day, and the ACE taken as mentioned as it stays in the body 12 to 14 days,

so far in three weeks the effects are great i am also taking whey protein and other than normal day to day activities have not done any exercise or used weights,and have put on quite a bit of muscle in comparison with what i had, most noticeably on my biceps triceps thighs and pecs, ( i never had pecs before !) i intend following the protocols and see what the effect is over the next few months and then decide whether to continue or not, from other reading this is new muscle in addition to the normal genetic muscle you have when you start, and is not lost when you stop,

http://quest.mda.org...als-duchenne-md

Instead, replace it with Creatine. Though it's a much weaker myostatin inhibitor, it provides a host of other benefits, especially for the elderly.

[pleb]

i found this thread interesting, whilst i have no idea of my T levels, i have never had a problem on the sex side, and at 68 yrs old (my avatar photo is 2 years old), i still don't need the little blue pill,
I've always been skinny, this was my only hangup, and couldn't do weight training because of an eye problem ( thin retinas) one of which is split and left me partially sighted,with a small amount of deterioration in the other,

regarding muscle building, quite a few months ago i came across an article by the New England School of medicine regarding HGH and its effects on old guys like me with its effects on ageing and rejuvenation so after more reading especially on the BB sites i' managed to find a supplier here in the UK,
from that and articles on BB forums i found other articles on IGF-1 long-3
and that it increases the anabolic effect 2.6 times when taken at the same time as HGH, then from that into Myostatin blockers,
ACE 031 500mcg injected every 2 weeks

plus the various protocols, i started on HGH 8 weeks ago at 2 iu a day then 3 weeks ago started the IGF-1 long-3 at 11mcg a day, and the ACE taken as mentioned as it stays in the body 12 to 14 days,

so far in three weeks the effects are great i am also taking whey protein and other than normal day to day activities have not done any exercise or used weights,and have put on quite a bit of muscle in comparison with what i had, most noticeably on my biceps triceps thighs and pecs, ( i never had pecs before !) i intend following the protocols and see what the effect is over the next few months and then decide whether to continue or not, from other reading this is new muscle in addition to the normal genetic muscle you have when you start, and is not lost when you stop,

http://quest.mda.org...als-duchenne-md

Instead, replace it with Creatine. Though it's a much weaker myostatin inhibitor, it provides a host of other benefits, especially for the elderly.

Hi thanks i had seen a mention about Creatine i do fit into the elderly category, lol
i will possibly try it in addition to the ACE, as you say Creatine on its own doesn't drop the Myostatin low enough, you need 40 to 60 percent reduction for Myostatin inhibition to be effective,
i had thought about doubling the amount to 1 mlg of ACE to get the myo lower still,
its just a personal experiment for me at this stage,

i had read about the trails in canada and short article by the guy who designed it, and so far no problems, i know kids are suseptable to nose bleeds as i was when i was young and my own when they were the same,but have not had it since they grew up,

Edited by pleb, 07 May 2013 - 04:34 PM.

[nowayout]

Yes, muscular men have more FREE testosterone

Not necessarily, no.

[KoolK3n]

Yes, muscular men have more FREE testosterone

Not necessarily, no.

y

[KoolK3n]

Hi thanks i had seen a mention about Creatine i do fit into the elderly category, lol
i will possibly try it in addition to the ACE, as you say Creatine on its own doesn't drop the Myostatin low enough, you need 40 to 60 percent reduction for Myostatin inhibition to be effective,
i had thought about doubling the amount to 1 mlg of ACE to get the myo lower still,
its just a personal experiment for me at this stage,

i had read about the trails in canada and short article by the guy who designed it, and so far no problems, i know kids are suseptable to nose bleeds as i was when i was young and my own when they were the same,but have not had it since they grew up,

Alright. I'm pretty young and am fairly invested into bodybuilding. An effective myostatin inhibitor would be quite the addition to my stack. I'll need to do a little more digging behind ACE053.